Car Behavior and Tire Temps after Patch 2.0PS4

[David Brooks]

Hi.

I'm interested to know peoples' thoughts on the temperatures indicated on the telemetry hud. I was testing the IndyCar at Indy oval and was showing temperature gradients across the tyres. I tried adjusting the camber to level it out but the changes didn't really seem to make any difference. However my lap times did appear to change (for the worse).

Do people think the camber change works and/or is it just the hud that doesn't respond?

Also, do you think having even temperatures across the width of the tyre is the right thing to aim for? Part of me says that should indicate the best use of the contact patch but the rest of me is saying there is more to it than that.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[F1Racer68]

Hi.

I'm interested to know peoples' thoughts on the temperatures indicated on the telemetry hud. I was testing the IndyCar at Indy oval and was showing temperature gradients across the tyres. I tried adjusting the camber to level it out but the changes didn't really seem to make any difference. However my lap times did appear to change (for the worse).

Do people think the camber change works and/or is it just the hud that doesn't respond?

Also, do you think having even temperatures across the width of the tyre is the right thing to aim for? Part of me says that should indicate the best use of the contact patch but the rest of me is saying there is more to it than that.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

As a generic point (not simply the IndyCars) people need to remember that simply changing camber alone may not always give the expected results. The rest of the suspension needs to be tuned to make sure the car is able to actually use the camber effectively.

As with most things in suspension tuning, it is a compmete and integral system. Every small change to one element could lead to or require additional changes to other elements.

In general, I have found camber to work as expected, within the confines of the car's overall setup (at least on the cars I have driven so far).

I haven't done much with the IndyCars yet other than to take it out for a few laps around the Indy oval.

 

[gladbecker82]

we shouldnt have to tweak every little piece of kit on a car to not pull an trail of smoke behind us. I tested all kinds of stuff and it didnt work. Oval Racing was enjoyable prior to 2.0

 

[ozwheels]

we shouldnt have to tweak every little piece of kit on a car to not pull an trail of smoke behind us. I tested all kinds of stuff and it didnt work. Oval Racing was enjoyable prior to 2.0

The tire smoke is a bug. It does indicate the front tire being heavily loaded though.

 

[twitcher]

As a generic point (not simply the IndyCars) people need to remember that simply changing camber alone may not always give the expected results. The rest of the suspension needs to be tuned to make sure the car is able to actually use the camber effectively.

As with most things in suspension tuning, it is a compmete and integral system. Every small change to one element could lead to or require additional changes to other elements.

In general, I have found camber to work as expected, within the confines of the car's overall setup (at least on the cars I have driven so far).

I haven't done much with the IndyCars yet other than to take it out for a few laps around the Indy oval.

At this point, are you 100% certain that camber is working 100% as it should?

Maybe I'm getting mixed up with GT, but wasn't there a patch in PC1 where camber was completely hooped, and people were running "extreme video game values" instead of realistic values.

 

[ozwheels]

At this point, are you 100% certain that camber is working 100% as it should?

Maybe I'm getting mixed up with GT, but wasn't there a patch in PC1 where camber was completely hooped, and people were running "extreme video game values" instead of realistic values.

In pCars 1 camber was broken in many different ways. Some of it was patched but the tires were fundamentally flawed with their camber sensitivity. There’s a lot of discussion about it on the official forums.

For pCars 2 all of my testing has been with GT3 cars. So far I know for sure more camber reduces top speed and different camber values will change the temperature spread across a tire as expected, lower values equal less spread. As far as grip is concerned that is hard to prove right or wrong because of a lack of data.

What has everyone been doing as far as optimal temp spread for certain conditions?

 

[twitcher]

In pCars 1 camber was broken in many different ways. Some of it was patched but the tires were fundamentally flawed with their camber sensitivity. There’s a lot of discussion about it on the official forums.

For pCars 2 all of my testing has been with GT3 cars. So far I know for sure more camber reduces top speed and different camber values will change the temperature spread across a tire as expected, lower values equal less spread. As far as grip is concerned that is hard to prove right or wrong because of a lack of data.

What has everyone been doing as far as optimal temp spread for certain conditions?

Ok, so you're saying there is ongoing discussion on the official forums as to the nature of how camber is implemented, and whether or not it's accurate or realistic.

Interesting.

Kind of tough to do a proper, controlled analysis of tire temps and pressures if camber is not represented completely accurately.

Anyways, carry on with your study of the tire model folks...hope you don't get too tired chasing your tails.

 

[ozwheels]

Ok, so you're saying there is ongoing discussion on the official forums as to the nature of how camber is implemented, and whether or not it's accurate or realistic.

Interesting.

Kind of tough to do a proper, controlled analysis of tire temps and pressures if camber is not represented completely accurately.

Anyways, carry on with your study of the tire model folks...hope you don't get too tired chasing your tails.

In pCars 1 camber was broken. So far it seems to work fine in pCars 2.

 

[twitcher]

In pCars 1 camber was broken. So far it seems to work fine in pCars 2.

That's kind of what I'm asking. "Seems to work fine" is not the same as "verified as working properly".

I just know camber is an area where multiple titles have had issues instituting it properly. I would be surprised if PC2 managed to nail it perfectly, and even more surprised if they actually implemented it without bugs and glitches.

 

[Wayne Kerr]

you play the same game as everyone right?

so if you haven't been able to verify it, how are the rest of the paying public supposed to? And how is anyone going to verify it unless they have actual tire data (the stuff they spit out after testing on a rig, not merely published data that anyone can get their hands on)

Which leads me to all these claims about collaboration / physics, blah blah effing blah that everyone likes to make. I understand devs / mod devs like to use the phrase "worked with real data" just to spike interest. I get it, it's a business thing to drive hype, sales, whatever.

Kids coming out of mere karts nowadays all a) play racing games, b) understand how to read the very basic of data aq data. So to NOT have this feature implemented in this game is missing a key piece of "racing simulation" tbh. But then again, if the simulation is flawed and it indeed was more stab in the dark than built from "real data" (whatever the hell that means anyway), then I can understand the reluctance to include it. Because once someone see numbers in motec / toolbox, it is all but working backwards to see how close to being "real" this title is. And that bit isn't that hard if you actually have "real' data to compare with.

The day i see devs stop throwing that ******** line is probably the day I won't care as much; but as an example is when someone has actual licensed OEM cad data and STILL manage to get the aero numbers wrong (their in game "aero" app vs the numbers spat out via a 50 million cell CFD model), then it isn't that far fetched that any title that can be bought for double digits is merely for entertainment purpose

 

[David Brooks]

Just further to my last post, I have continued adjusting camber on my indy car and it has indeed affected the tire temps across the width of the tyre as it should. I just needed to make my changes a bit coarser.

 

[AllReD]

Can someone kindly explain to me what is really going on here with the tire temps and pressures?

There seems to be no correlation between heat and pressure which in my mind flies in the face of logic.

Race Start: Front Temp 74/73 - Rear Temp 74/74
Front PSI 28/28 - Rear PSI 26/26

Mid Race : Front Temp 93/68 - Rear Temp 93/81
Front PSI 26/26 - Rear PSI 25/25

Race End: Front Temp 91/63 - Rear Temp 94/78
Front PSI 26/25 - Rear PSI 25/24

On Lap 4 his FL tire temp drops to 54 but pressure is still holding at 25. What's more confusing, is that if PC2 simulates heat from the brakes, then how is it that under heavy braking he moves from 58-56 and 56-54.

You hear the driver complain about the lack of grip as the race progresses, and wonders why his tires are getting cold, and the pressures are dropping.

For someone who is about to jump into PC2 a bit of an explanation would go a long way to helping me set my expectations about this game.

Thanks.

 

[ozwheels]

Can someone kindly explain to me what is really going on here with the tire temps and pressures?

There seems to be no correlation between heat and pressure which in my mind flies in the face of logic.

Race Start: Front Temp 74/73 - Rear Temp 74/74
Front PSI 28/28 - Rear PSI 26/26

Mid Race : Front Temp 93/68 - Rear Temp 93/81
Front PSI 26/26 - Rear PSI 25/25

Race End: Front Temp 91/63 - Rear Temp 94/78
Front PSI 26/25 - Rear PSI 25/24

On Lap 4 his FL tire temp drops to 54 but pressure is still holding at 25. What's more confusing, is that if PC2 simulates heat from the brakes, then how is it that under heavy braking he moves from 58-56 and 56-54.

You hear the driver complain about the lack of grip as the race progresses, and wonders why his tires are getting cold, and the pressures are dropping.

For someone who is about to jump into PC2 a bit of an explanation would go a long way to helping me set my expectations about this game.

Thanks.

To be honest I haven’t experienced any of those specific issues with your example. There are certainly some weird things with pressures and temperatures in the race though. Such as hot pressures not matching hot pressures from practice with identical track conditions. I still think something isn’t right with loading setups for races.

 

[FuriousDemon]

To be honest I haven’t experienced any of those specific issues with your example. There are certainly some weird things with pressures and temperatures in the race though. Such as hot pressures not matching hot pressures from practice with identical track conditions. I still think something isn’t right with loading setups for races.

As for loading setups, I just check the setup menu and make sure that it’s using the correct one right before the race. Usually you should be able to figure it out based on some settings you’ve changed. Overall though I didn’t have issues after I do the following: Change the setup -> Save -> Load -> Save Over Existing -> Load. The last two steps just for good measure because it seems like it would not apply sometimes after the first Load. This way I’m sure it works correctly, never had an issue.

 

[twitcher]

Can someone kindly explain to me what is really going on here with the tire temps and pressures?

There seems to be no correlation between heat and pressure which in my mind flies in the face of logic.

Race Start: Front Temp 74/73 - Rear Temp 74/74
Front PSI 28/28 - Rear PSI 26/26

Mid Race : Front Temp 93/68 - Rear Temp 93/81
Front PSI 26/26 - Rear PSI 25/25

Race End: Front Temp 91/63 - Rear Temp 94/78
Front PSI 26/25 - Rear PSI 25/24

On Lap 4 his FL tire temp drops to 54 but pressure is still holding at 25. What's more confusing, is that if PC2 simulates heat from the brakes, then how is it that under heavy braking he moves from 58-56 and 56-54.

You hear the driver complain about the lack of grip as the race progresses, and wonders why his tires are getting cold, and the pressures are dropping.

For someone who is about to jump into PC2 a bit of an explanation would go a long way to helping me set my expectations about this game.

Thanks.

That's basically where most of us are at. If you take tuning even 1/2 serious, and look the methodically work your way through a tune, the game gives you completely inconsistent and head scratching results from one session to another.

you play the same game as everyone right?

so if you haven't been able to verify it, how are the rest of the paying public supposed to? And how is anyone going to verify it unless they have actual tire data (the stuff they spit out after testing on a rig, not merely published data that anyone can get their hands on)

Which leads me to all these claims about collaboration / physics, blah blah effing blah that everyone likes to make. I understand devs / mod devs like to use the phrase "worked with real data" just to spike interest. I get it, it's a business thing to drive hype, sales, whatever.

Kids coming out of mere karts nowadays all a) play racing games, b) understand how to read the very basic of data aq data. So to NOT have this feature implemented in this game is missing a key piece of "racing simulation" tbh. But then again, if the simulation is flawed and it indeed was more stab in the dark than built from "real data" (whatever the hell that means anyway), then I can understand the reluctance to include it. Because once someone see numbers in motec / toolbox, it is all but working backwards to see how close to being "real" this title is. And that bit isn't that hard if you actually have "real' data to compare with.

The day i see devs stop throwing that ******** line is probably the day I won't care as much; but as an example is when someone has actual licensed OEM cad data and STILL manage to get the aero numbers wrong (their in game "aero" app vs the numbers spat out via a 50 million cell CFD model), then it isn't that far fetched that any title that can be bought for double digits is merely for entertainment purpose

Well, SMS could provide ample data to verify the tire model - if they choose to disclose the info, as you say. Would go a long way in helping us in this blindfolded stabbing excersise we're currently partaking in.

To further what I think you're saying...look at this thread, look how many people are tying to apply real world data and principles to the game - and we have NO FREAKING CLUE if the game is actually modelling this stuff accurately. The game can't even get through the opening movie without bugging out, we're supposed to expect that the tire and physics model is flawless??

At this point, it feels like the only thing we have to go off of is marketing lingo...apparently there isn't anything this game doesn't simulate.


I don't know, maybe the devs of these "sims" aren't aware of what happened with GT5...how we got access to the save files, and learned about things like "grip multipliers".

I really think PC2 is a hell of a lot more basic than people are giving credit for. Add in that it's also very inconsistent, and it makes using real world tuning data a bit of a joke.

 

[ozwheels]

As for loading setups, I just check the setup menu and make sure that it’s using the correct one right before the race. Usually you should be able to figure it out based on some settings you’ve changed. Overall though I didn’t have issues after I do the following: Change the setup -> Save -> Load -> Save Over Existing -> Load. The last two steps just for good measure because it seems like it would not apply sometimes after the first Load. This way I’m sure it works correctly, never had an issue.

We shouldn’t need a step by step process should we? I get it’s a work around, but it’s a little worrying this loading bug isn’t being talked about by the devs.

 

[FuriousDemon]

That's basically where most of us are at. If you take tuning even 1/2 serious, and look the methodically work your way through a tune, the game gives you completely inconsistent and head scratching results from one session to another.


Well, SMS could provide ample data to verify the tire model - if they choose to disclose the info, as you say. Would go a long way in helping us in this blindfolded stabbing excersise we're currently partaking in.

To further what I think you're saying...look at this thread, look how many people are tying to apply real world data and principles to the game - and we have NO FREAKING CLUE if the game is actually modelling this stuff accurately. The game can't even get through the opening movie without bugging out, we're supposed to expect that the tire and physics model is flawless??

At this point, it feels like the only thing we have to go off of is marketing lingo...apparently there isn't anything this game doesn't simulate.


I don't know, maybe the devs of these "sims" aren't aware of what happened with GT5...how we got access to the save files, and learned about things like "grip multipliers".

I really think PC2 is a hell of a lot more basic than people are giving credit for. Add in that it's also very inconsistent, and it makes using real world tuning data a bit of a joke.

There may be some bugs in there somewhere, but it sure seems like it’s far from basic. I cannot prove that of course, but just based on the things you can feel while driving and through visual and sound feedback, it seems to behave quite naturally.

 

[twitcher]

There may be some bugs in there somewhere, but it sure seems like it’s far from basic. I cannot prove that of course, but just based on the things you can feel while driving and through visual and sound feedback, it seems to behave quite naturally.

Perhaps basic is the wrong word. It's the most in depth console racing game to date...but it's just that, a console racing game.

I think many of us, myself included, bought a lot of the dev bs about simulate this, accurate that, real world data blah blah blah.

Simple test: drive on pavement, then drive on the grass. Does that feel like real world simulated grass and dirt? Or like a horizontal surface that's green and has less grip....like, has a grip multiplier that makes the green stuff slippier than the black stuff.


Take any car from PC1 or PC2 for a spin on cold tires. Real experience or not, does that feel like the way a 1 ton car would handle on anything but plastic tires? Realistically modelled, or a grip multiplier?

And if dirt and cold tires are simplistically modelled...what else is?

 

[FuriousDemon]

Perhaps basic is the wrong word. It's the most in depth console racing game to date...but it's just that, a console racing game.

I think many of us, myself included, bought a lot of the dev bs about simulate this, accurate that, real world data blah blah blah.

Simple test: drive on pavement, then drive on the grass. Does that feel like real world simulated grass and dirt? Or like a horizontal surface that's green and has less grip....like, has a grip multiplier that makes the green stuff slippier than the black stuff.


Take any car from PC1 or PC2 for a spin on cold tires. Real experience or not, does that feel like the way a 1 ton car would handle on anything but plastic tires? Realistically modelled, or a grip multiplier?

And if dirt and cold tires are simplistically modelled...what else is?

Grass may not be perfectly accurate, but it doesn’t mean other things are not simulated correctly or more in depth than any other title out there. I’m not sure about cold tire performance either, I have never tried to race on a track with cold tires in real life and during my daily drive I don’t exceed speeds of 70-80 mph with relatively smooth corners and no hard braking required. I can only trust the real drivers to say if it’s realistic or not.

Anyway, I’m not sure what you want. You said it yourself, it’s the best out there (or one of the best) physics simulation on a console. I’m glad you are finally going return the game and enjoy GTS. At least you won’t have to worry about studying tires, setups, and such things as the level of simulation is a step below.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I’m glad you are finally going return the game and enjoy GTS. At least you won’t have to worry about studying tires, setups, and such things as the level of simulation is a step below.

Looking forward to his posts in the GTS forum about the FF physics. Or crash physics. Or the over-the-limit physics. 👍

 

[twitcher]

Grass may not be perfectly accurate, but it doesn’t mean other things are not simulated correctly or more in depth than any other title out there. I’m not sure about cold tire performance either, I have never tried to race on a track with cold tires in real life and during my daily drive I don’t exceed speeds of 70-80 mph with relatively smooth corners and no hard braking required. I can only trust the real drivers to say if it’s realistic or not.

Anyway, I’m not sure what you want. You said it yourself, it’s the best out there (or one of the best) physics simulation on a console. I’m glad you are finally going return the game and enjoy GTS. At least you won’t have to worry about studying tires, setups, and such things as the level of simulation is a step below.

Looking forward to his posts in the GTS forum about the FF physics. Or crash physics. Or the over-the-limit physics. 👍

I play GT for different reasons than PCARS, geniuses. I don't expect GT to be as realistic as PCARS claims to be.

 

[paulpg87]

I knew It would get down to pcars versus GTS. Really Boring.

Moreover considering it is only a game, (even if i can understand the frustation) everyone should really be moderate and polite and just leverage this fruitfull community to "kill" the wait for fixes.

 

[ozwheels]

I really hope SMS looks into the GT3 soft tires. It’s not much fun having to tip toe through a race from the time the lights go green. It makes racing others very hard as the absolute smallest mistake causes a spin. The hard tires have the same traits, but much much less pronounced during races. The whole idea of having a big drop off in grip after the first few laps then leveling to a gradual drop off is fine. The overheating after lap 1 is not so fine.

 

[FuriousDemon]

I really hope SMS looks into the GT3 soft tires. It’s not much fun having to tip toe through a race from the time the lights go green. It makes racing others very hard as the absolute smallest mistake causes a spin. The hard tires have the same traits, but much much less pronounced during races. The whole idea of having a big drop off in grip after the first few laps then leveling to a gradual drop off is fine. The overheating after lap 1 is not so fine.

Under what conditions? I have no problem with default tires on GT3 cars (hard I assume) and can run 10+ laps with maybe a tiny drop in grip.

 

[ozwheels]

Under what conditions? I have no problem with default tires on GT3 cars (hard I assume) and can run 10+ laps with maybe a tiny drop in grip.

Yea the hard tires are nice. I’m talking about softs under any conditions suitable for a soft tire.

 

[Wayne Kerr]

pirelli's tire recommendation for their DH compound at Mugello this weekend for the challenge cars (58, 88)

 

[ozwheels]

pirelli's tire recommendation for their DH compound at Mugello this weekend for the challenge cars (58, 88)

Those values are almost exactly what I’ve been using.

 

[Bealdor]

I really hope SMS looks into the GT3 soft tires. It’s not much fun having to tip toe through a race from the time the lights go green. It makes racing others very hard as the absolute smallest mistake causes a spin. The hard tires have the same traits, but much much less pronounced during races. The whole idea of having a big drop off in grip after the first few laps then leveling to a gradual drop off is fine. The overheating after lap 1 is not so fine.

Which track?

 

[ozwheels]

Which track?

Every track I’ve tested. This excludes tracks with crazy long straights like Daytona and LeMans. Tonight I was practicing at Algarve for a league race. Track temp 80C. Hards could be viable if you sacrificed a lot of pace, but when comparing the softs and hards on track it’s clear the softs are the ideal choice. The tires starting cold for practice and around 185 for the race causes some issues. When the tires start to overheat I notice it most with combined braking and downshifting, low speed apexes and slow corner exits. Imagine during practice when the tires start to get to 200F and overheat these problems become a 7/10 which isn’t ideal but it is manageable to an extent if you are careful. At the race start with the preheated tires these problems turn to a 10/10 instantly. Thus close racing on overheating tires becomes a little hard and unpredictable. I believe you were around for the 6.0 pCars 1 patch where everything overheated. It’s basically the same thing here.

For reference the hard tires have the same ‘cliff’ effect, but they don’t overheat nearly as fast or as easy and provide great racing.

 

[crowhop]

Yea the hard tires are nice. I’m talking about softs under any conditions suitable for a soft tire.

Softs for GT3 cars are meant for Qualifying only. More or less an out lap and flying lap. If you're using them in a race of even more than three laps you're doing it all wrong.