circuit experiences are broken...

[newmedia_dev]

I have no dog in this hunt but I disagree. I don't care at all about completing everything and Im pretty sure I've reached my controller skill ceiling. I just like driving. If I can get an additional endorphin from achieving a goal, thats even better!

My point is that just discovering them after the early and only menu is probably very low on "the majority of players" list.

There is no fight just see 2 different angles of the same thing.

For those invest "I like driving" they will explore the game more than mostly younger players who just want to win races and get credits. They are the mass market.

I'm sitting here in a rig with a wheel and VR playing the only game I play so I'm very biased, but the reality is a lot of people don't just play a driving game they play loads of games from their bed/desk/sofa etc

Again it's all our own lenses on this stuff, I'm heavily invested in the game and driving games generally but going by the sales numbers only 1% roughly do online TTs and the same number for Sports mode. It's fair to say the other 12.5 million aren't doing Circuit Experiences to gold.

 

[Mafio]

My point is that just discovering them after the early and only menu is probably very low on "the majority of players" list.

There is no fight just see 2 different angles of the same thing.

For those invest "I like driving" they will explore the game more than mostly younger players who just want to win races and get credits. They are the mass market.

I'm sitting here in a rig with a wheel and VR playing the only game I play so I'm very biased, but the reality is a lot of people don't just play a driving game they play loads of games from their bed/desk/sofa etc

Again it's all our own lenses on this stuff, I'm heavily invested in the game and driving games generally but going by the sales numbers only 1% roughly do online TTs and the same number for Sports mode. It's fair to say the other 12.5 million aren't doing Circuit Experiences to gold.

Right, I am not doing CEs to get gold. Its just more excuses to drive and if I can get an additional endorphin from achieving a goal, thats even better!

If GT just wanted to be a just fun racing came for the masses, why would it spend the time, money and resources on attempting to reach any level of realism? Nowadays, the "masses" drives SUVs. Mario Kart is fun as hell, but doesn't have a drop or realism. I said it before, I think a lot of disappointed people in GT as a franchise are people that aren't really looking for what GT is selling, they just don't really have anywhere else to go. They keep waiting on the only Burger King in town to start selling tacos. Contrary to popular belief, that's not PD's concern. Every business in the world isn't trying to go full Elon and take over the world.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Right, I am not doing CEs to get gold. Its just more excuses to drive and if I can get an additional endorphin from achieving a goal, thats even better!

If GT just wanted to be a just fun racing came for the masses, why would it spend the time, money and resources on attempting to reach any level of realism? Nowadays, the "masses" drives SUVs. Mario Kart is fun as hell, but doesn't have a drop or realism. I said it before, I think a lot of disappointed people in GT as a franchise are people that aren't really looking for what GT is selling, they just don't really have anywhere else to go. They keep waiting on the only Burger King in town to start selling tacos. Contrary to popular belief, that's not PD's concern. Every business in the world isn't trying to go full Elon and take over the world.

You are doing CEs for you that is a self choice.

Your second point im not sure I understand? The game was built around car culture and what cars mean to people and the racing.

Mario kart doesn't have photo mode? vr with highly textured and poly count cars. A physics model meant to convey the experience of driving different cars, admiring them, collecting them, driving them, racing them, racing your peers etc

Sophy shows promise for a first iteration for offline players.

The game is seriously flawed in a lot of ways, circuit experiences aren't one of them.

I think we need to all take a step back and realise this wasn't a game designed with series veterans front and foremost and I go back to GT1 when I started playing but aimed at a different demographic with different wants and attention spans.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Fair enough but not all games are made equal and I'm in the field of UX and behavioural management. 2 sides of the same coin I guess.

Just setting a goal is the hook for some people. Just look at the TT thread. But the circuit experiences aren't about hitting the goals but about learning. It's human nature to be completionists and competitive but most of the game base won't even visit them, because that isn't racing or tuning or collecting.

Those that do visit and want to perfect them are very much invested in either completing everything or getting better. That's all my point was.

All valid, but this doesn't speak to the original post regarding the CE golds being made easier to attain, or any of the golds for that matter. The intermittent reward schedule is a proven method of creating addiction and getting people to feverishly repeat a behaviour.

The TT thread is a great example. It isn't just "the goal", because if the gold target were, say 2 seconds slower, no one would care. But, as it stands, you get close. "Ok, i just need another second"...you go 0.25 faster. "Ok, I just need 0.75 seconds" you go 0.1 faster. "Ok, I just need 0.65" and you go slower. Etc, etc, etc... that keeps you hooked.

The OP wanted CE Gold to be easier to achieve, and my point is that doing so woudl diminish the game for everyone.

 

[newmedia_dev]

All valid, but this doesn't speak to the original post regarding the CE golds being made easier to attain, or any of the golds for that matter. The intermittent reward schedule is a proven method of creating addiction and getting people to feverishly repeat a behaviour.

The TT thread is a great example. It isn't just "the goal", because if the gold target were, say 2 seconds slower, no one would care. But, as it stands, you get close. "Ok, i just need another second"...you go 0.25 faster. "Ok, I just need 0.75 seconds" you go 0.1 faster. "Ok, I just need 0.65" and you go slower. Etc, etc, etc... that keeps you hooked.

The OP wanted CE Gold to be easier to achieve, and my point is that doing so woudl diminish the game for everyone.

It all depends on your definition of succeeding....if that means getting a medal which is a sign you beat the benchmark then Bronze is success for many people.

If your definition is beating top percentile then of course this is going to be challenging.

I'm not sure it makes any rational sense to have "hard gold" and "easy gold" surely that's what bronze is....

Changing the difficulty is kind of a fallacy and undermines the point of time targets in the first place

I think they are intended to do both things.

For new players or those not familiar with a given track they are the ability to learn it and improve each sector at a time rather than just doing full time trial laps you learn specific corners and sectors in more memorable bite sized chunks.

For players more familiar with a circuit and car class combo it's the ability to work on out right pace or a given corner/corner sequence with the ability to not have to drive the whole lap. This is especially helpful when you want to practice the last sector of tracks and saves a lot of time.

A lot of people restart at their first mistake in QT or TT or even races. The problem then is you end up with less knowledge of the last part of the lap. But the CEs help you learn that part just as well.

Edit to add: There is a tertiary benefit to them as well as more knowledge of a circuit or corner etc promotes better driving and car control and for racing (especially sports mode) helps with understand where is a good place to pass, what lines you can take and what is coming up etc

@joeyv I'm glad you see we are all here to help and opine.

I think it really stems from the games foundations there are some insanely difficult challenges through out the series so are missions other almost impossible races to brutally punishing license tests.

The game is designed around the ethos: Easy to play, difficult to master.

The challenge is by design and to honest fairly well calibrated to the vast majority of players.

It would help to recalibrate a bit and get more experience controlling the game cars and learning a bit more of the fidelity. That will help you a lot.

The CE aren't part of the core game, more a set of mini challenges that prove your car control. Typically you want to work through them but getting all bronze then coming back to them and aiming for silver etc

I have 6500+ hours with the game and even one or two of the experiences are not a "one and done" thing and can take a fair few tries.

Winning races against the AI doesn't transfer over very well to doing well in the CEs so it's definitely worth approaching them with "what can I learn about this corner/sector" and taking that in and trying to apply it.

Learning braking markers and acceleration markers, watching the demo ghost and then turning it on to follow with a small offset will help loads.

Good luck and go forth and conquer 🍻

It depends, they have adjusted a lot of the times down in the last few updates (where physics changes are a bigger part/tire physics etc)

Some of the sector times have dropped by a few tenths, some of the lap times by up to 3 seconds.

But TTs and CEs aren't comparing apples to apples. TTs are a "free market" where the time to get within the margin is set by the fastest players, CEs are a fixed point with a fixed goal (updates excluded) that doesn't move, has demonstration ghosts and calibrated to take in to account AT use, some assists etc.

The changed times for the CEs is a bit of a red herring though as inherently the tires and car handling has improved (got easier) so the adjustments just factor that in, they are still relative to launch in difficulty/learning curve etc.

Literally what I was saying a page or so back? I even used the word "fallacy" as moving times to make people feel good is probably not the solution to a bit of effort and determination/grit/guile/practice..

Edit: not only did I question the initial ask, I offered some tips to help improve because ultimately it's a skill barrier not a game design issue or dark pattern.

 

[Mafio]

You are doing CEs for you that is a self choice.

Your second point im not sure I understand? The game was built around car culture and what cars mean to people and the racing.

Mario kart doesn't have photo mode? vr with highly textured and poly count cars. A physics model meant to convey the experience of driving different cars, admiring them, collecting them, driving them, racing them, racing your peers etc

Sophy shows promise for a first iteration for offline players.

The game is seriously flawed in a lot of ways, circuit experiences aren't one of them.

I think we need to all take a step back and realise this wasn't a game designed with series veterans front and foremost and I go back to GT1 when I started playing but aimed at a different demographic with different wants and attention spans.

Ok, I'll just say it because people will just dance all around it...it is implied that because a game can be hard, its no fun. Also, what makes you think the game wasn't designed for veterans. If anything vets are the main ones that should know what they're getting into. The only aspect of GT that has changed is it generosity and some how that NOT a benefit to vets?

 

[newmedia_dev]

Ok, I'll just say it because people will just dance all around it...it is implied that because a game can be hard, it's no fun. Also, what makes you think the game wasn't designed for veterans. If anything vets are the main ones that should know what they're getting into. The only aspect of GT that has changed is it generosity and some how that NOT a benefit to vets?

the game was designed to attract new players, bring us long term players along sure but they got 25 years out of me, I don't think they that they are expecting another 25 years from a 45 year old as a massive game selling base..., but 15 year old Timmy...

Just to be clear I'm not sure what "generosity" means. There is a score to beat, practice and beat it others have and others will 🤷‍♂️ just because people don't want to put the learning curve effort in means they get it easier?

 

[Mafio]

the game was designed to attract new players, bring us long term players along sure but they got 25 years out of me, I don't think they that they are expecting another 25 years from a 45 year old as a massive game selling base..., but 15 year old Timmy...

Just to be clear I'm not sure what "generosity" means. There is a score to beat, practice and beat it others have and others will 🤷‍♂️ just because people don't want to put the learning curve effort in means they get it easier?

You remember when you were rewarded just for booting up the game? Remember when you would get a prize car after a race, even if you already won said race. That's the generosity I'm talking about. Thats the underling theme of this whole thread. The fact that it takes more than a little effort to get something out of GT. Also, could it be YOU have outgrown the game more than the game expecting anything out of you?

 

[newmedia_dev]

You remember when you were rewarded just for booting up the game? Remember when you would get a prize car after a race, even if you already won said race. That's the generosity I'm talking about. Thats the underling theme of this whole thread. The fact that it takes more than a little effort to get something out of GT. Also, could it be YOU have outgrown the game more than the game expecting anything out of you?

Mate, I remember turning on my spectrum, nes and got nothing other than the option to play the game.

I haven't out grown the game, I've invested heavily in playing it because tickets, credits and a lot of the cars aren't the game....driving and racing are.

I don't need the credits to make me happy, I get my fun from the competition and variety the rest is all just fake currency for fake cars in fake events etc etc.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I think the game leads to ENORMOUS frustrations while being such a cool game. Without discussion the CEs are impossible but not for everybody. That is how to look at it . I am 47 and thus I cannot react that fast anymore. And that is where the game fails big time. They should offer an option to lower the difficulty so EVERYBODY can enjoy the game to the fullest. There are people who simply cannot get gold in certain races or CEs no matter how hard and how long they try. So saying your rubbish is a very low reaction because it is offending for people who are playing for years and tried the same track for 500000000 times and can't succeed so that is proof that the CEs are set at a RUDICULOUSLY hard level. That leads thus to frustration which is the opposite of what a good balanced game should be. They should offer an option to choose the level of difficulty in the CEs

Ok, so back to the post that fired up this thread again. I did the CE for Brazil. I know it's not the most difficult in the game, but I wanted to point out that it is quite possible. I got gold on my second try (time in the top right corner of the video).

I play with a controller. I have traction control on 0. ABS on default. I DO enable the braking markers. I find they help a lot. My advice is to ask people how they do it rather than ask PD to make it easier. There's plenty of people here who are happy to help.

 

[Lomic]

I did the CE for Brazil. I know it's not the most difficult in the game

Funny you mentionned that, I did the same tonight, although with lesser results.

I had some sectors in bronze, one in gold and one in silver, plus bronze for full lap (1:37.5XX).

S1 was the most difficult to gold.

Then I tried to gold full lap, but not success for now, still 0.051s outside of gold. Not looking for help, I know where I loose time. But I'll need to try more than twice to get gold.

Did 50km in total to gold remaining sectors and maybe 6 full lap attempts.

 

[Voodoovaj]

S1 was the most difficult to gold.

Here's my tips. Turn on the braking markers, they give you a consistent reference point.

I hit the brakes as soon as the nose enters the marker zone. You are trying to go slow enough to cut the curbing on T1. For T2, you want to cut across the curbing as much as possible without going off track. Short shift if you need to. It helps when you exit. For T3, hug that curb and hold the throttle wide open.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Funny you mentionned that, I did the same tonight, although with lesser results.

I had some sectors in bronze, one in gold and one in silver, plus bronze for full lap (1:37.5XX).

S1 was the most difficult to gold.

Then I tried to gold full lap, but not success for now, still 0.051s outside of gold. Not looking for help, I know where I loose time. But I'll need to try more than twice to get gold.

Did 50km in total to gold remaining sectors and maybe 6 full lap attempts.

Watch last weeks lap guide from Tidgney there are some good gear selection choices and some clear brake points that you can brake against (earlier/later) that are more consistent.

It's a weird track and voodo offers some good advice, the time is in not over driving and trying to flow, with smooth acceleration.

I'll go re try it in a bit as I haven't since the changes to the physics.

 

[Lomic]

Not looking for help

But thanks 🤣

 

[newmedia_dev]

But thanks 🤣

Ouch!

 

[jrbabbitt]

The typical player, dixit fart AI
View attachment 1426731

My eyes are blue....and I hold my controller correctly....

 

[breeminator]

I am 47 and thus I cannot react that fast anymore.

Reaction time really isn't the issue. I'm 7 years older than you and can score 180ms on a reaction test website. I've seen teenage elite e-sports competitors only able to record the same time as me. It's much more about prediction/anticipation, and speed and quality of higher level thinking. I play Rocket League with a friend who can also score 180ms on a reaction test website, his reaction speed is the same as mine, yet in practice in Rocket League it's as if he's seconds slower than me to understand what is happening in the game. Similarly, that elite e-sports competitor who also has the same reaction time as me probably has way more awareness than me of loads of details of what is happening on his screen.

This stuff is highly trainable, even among older people like us. You can develop habits and instincts to do the right things so they become automatic. I've done 3 grand races in The Crew Motorfest today and won every one of them. 28 players in each one, and I'd guess many of them much younger than me. I had A+ driver rating in GT Sport, I think I was at least 47 at the time. It's definitely possible to be decent at driving games into at least your 50s.

Note that I'm not saying everyone can be as good as the best players. Like every activity, there are talent differences. But training and so-called "deliberate practice", where you not only do the activity but put really focused effort into working out how to improve, can bring huge improvement. 47 really isn't that old, I'm sure YouTuber TheKie25, for example, will still be extremely quick when he's 47.

 

[bluealpine]

My eyes are blue....and I hold my controller correctly....

I wasn't targeting anyone in particular 😄

 

[newmedia_dev]

I think I was at least 47 at the time. It's definitely possible to be decent at driving games into at least your 50s.

I'd agree, so would Walter



And just for good measure one of my if not the favourite of all time is the same man in loafers and no helmet in a yellow bird at nurbs