Cockpit view - IMHO overated and not so useful...
- Thread starter Bluez_Freak
- 637 comments
- 55,816 views
Destinkeys
(Banned)
- 1,199
- Destinkeys
Windshield cam needs a hood. Windshield cam need rain on it and wipers. Windshield cam might be fun if it showed JUST enough roof and dash so that it was the correct dimensions for the actual windshield's full width or at least more of it than cockpit cam shows.
Windshield cam might be fun if the center seat position was moved to the side. In other words, place the speedo and tach towards one side, and then sit slightly off center. Not as much as a real car, but a hair might be fun (so that your view of the hood was a bit less central (except for the F1, of course!). The main thing is judging those apexes.
Right now, in hood ornament cam (bumper cam if you want to use the old, incorrect term), as a rough guide, the outsides of the speedo and tach act as edge indicators. Basically, if you run in a line and the tach or the speedo go over the rumble strip, you'll just hear it. Rumble strip to the outside of the instruments, no rumble. It's not precise, but it's a pretty good rough guide. The thing is, it's where the car WILL be, but far further forward than if you were looking out and saw your hood IRL. That's tucked more out to the sides. So, in essence, the tach and speedo are the corners of your car about a few feet IN FRONT of the car. My head is spinning from all this!
Now, Chromatic and Captain Roh's pictures are fascinating. First of all, yes, there's your proof that 'bumper' is actually driver eye height (but anyone that's ever watched a REAL bumper cam on TV knows that is is much lower to the ground and severely exaggerates the apexes and rumble strips), but Catain Roh's pictures seem to question the very position of '(in front of the) windshield' cam. Is it off to the side, or not? I think it does show that it is in the center of the car. If Chromatic's double exposure was slipped so that the windshield cam's instruments were in the center, rather than superimposed on the cockpit cam's instruments, perhaps those double lines and the such WOULD line up right, and that would account for why one car was further over than the other in Captain Roh's picture.
It certainly FEELS like the central position, you'll feel the rumble strips equally as they go JUST under the speedo or the tach. Me, I'd like it moved, maybe not QUITE to out as far as the cockpit cam, so I have more of a sense of not being smack dab inb the middle. I've never driven an F1, never really been in a single seat race car (although long ago I DID have a little go in karts), and am, like all of us, mostly used to having a bit more car on one side of me than the other.
Maybe, after PD model a hood and a little roofline, put the weather on the OUTSIDE of the windshield and bring back the wipers, they could put the windshield camera off center (as an option, maybe?)...
To be honest, I hate to say it, but they should just go and take a good look at Shift 1. Their hood cam was just about right. No invisible car, and generic speedo and tach. The right one for each car. Mind you, yes, it was still central, but I had a MUCH more 'connected' feeling to it. It wasn't as extreme as cockpit cam, but at least I still FELT I was driving a car around, not a Steady-Cam in front of a moving point, with magical instruments hovering disembodied in thin air!
Add rain and wipers to that view, and just a BIT of surround (if it's going to be central) and you have something that could be WAY more immersive than it is, while still giving you a less restrictive view than cockpit. Even with a HANS on and a helmet, you can still usually see the whole windshield. My view certainly isn't cut off just to the far edge of the center mirror! And VERY little head movement increases that even further.
Real estate on an HDTV is limited. I know Kaz LOVES all that detail modeling, but there just isn't room for it all AND give you what you would perceive actually sitting there without that being a monster TV basically as wide as your car (and a bit wider to get in the pillars and side window bit)! No-one can afford that. So, I'm sorry, but in cockpit view, I always get the impression I am sitting in the back seat, or wearing someone else's glasses prescription, that makes everything look further away! And someone has stuck blinkers on me.
Trust me on this one (or go play Shift and take a look for yourselves), but windshield cam, if it DOES show the hood and enough bodywork to start shaking around as you get faster and go over bumps (rather than GT'5 the car stays stable as your HEAD starts shaking around!), and this can be VERY immersive without restricting your view as much as cockpit cam...
Is it perfect...? No. But it's no more WRONG than cockpit cam, IMO. Combined with the visual jostling, which I think is the thing that cockpit view drivers feel as the main thing that gives them an impression of SPEED and immersion, even though they might THINK it is seeing all the cockpit details. It is them moving around.
Shift, IMO, got it right. You vision doesn't blur as much as the car vibrates and shakes. If it did, you couldn't drive.
The hell of it all, I suppose, is NEITHER view in GT5 is any good. Cockpit is too restrictive for real life, and (invisible) hood cam is too stable and disembodied.
JMO
Windshield cam might be fun if the center seat position was moved to the side. In other words, place the speedo and tach towards one side, and then sit slightly off center. Not as much as a real car, but a hair might be fun (so that your view of the hood was a bit less central (except for the F1, of course!). The main thing is judging those apexes.
Right now, in hood ornament cam (bumper cam if you want to use the old, incorrect term), as a rough guide, the outsides of the speedo and tach act as edge indicators. Basically, if you run in a line and the tach or the speedo go over the rumble strip, you'll just hear it. Rumble strip to the outside of the instruments, no rumble. It's not precise, but it's a pretty good rough guide. The thing is, it's where the car WILL be, but far further forward than if you were looking out and saw your hood IRL. That's tucked more out to the sides. So, in essence, the tach and speedo are the corners of your car about a few feet IN FRONT of the car. My head is spinning from all this!
Now, Chromatic and Captain Roh's pictures are fascinating. First of all, yes, there's your proof that 'bumper' is actually driver eye height (but anyone that's ever watched a REAL bumper cam on TV knows that is is much lower to the ground and severely exaggerates the apexes and rumble strips), but Catain Roh's pictures seem to question the very position of '(in front of the) windshield' cam. Is it off to the side, or not? I think it does show that it is in the center of the car. If Chromatic's double exposure was slipped so that the windshield cam's instruments were in the center, rather than superimposed on the cockpit cam's instruments, perhaps those double lines and the such WOULD line up right, and that would account for why one car was further over than the other in Captain Roh's picture.
It certainly FEELS like the central position, you'll feel the rumble strips equally as they go JUST under the speedo or the tach. Me, I'd like it moved, maybe not QUITE to out as far as the cockpit cam, so I have more of a sense of not being smack dab inb the middle. I've never driven an F1, never really been in a single seat race car (although long ago I DID have a little go in karts), and am, like all of us, mostly used to having a bit more car on one side of me than the other.
Maybe, after PD model a hood and a little roofline, put the weather on the OUTSIDE of the windshield and bring back the wipers, they could put the windshield camera off center (as an option, maybe?)...
To be honest, I hate to say it, but they should just go and take a good look at Shift 1. Their hood cam was just about right. No invisible car, and generic speedo and tach. The right one for each car. Mind you, yes, it was still central, but I had a MUCH more 'connected' feeling to it. It wasn't as extreme as cockpit cam, but at least I still FELT I was driving a car around, not a Steady-Cam in front of a moving point, with magical instruments hovering disembodied in thin air!
Add rain and wipers to that view, and just a BIT of surround (if it's going to be central) and you have something that could be WAY more immersive than it is, while still giving you a less restrictive view than cockpit. Even with a HANS on and a helmet, you can still usually see the whole windshield. My view certainly isn't cut off just to the far edge of the center mirror! And VERY little head movement increases that even further.
Real estate on an HDTV is limited. I know Kaz LOVES all that detail modeling, but there just isn't room for it all AND give you what you would perceive actually sitting there without that being a monster TV basically as wide as your car (and a bit wider to get in the pillars and side window bit)! No-one can afford that. So, I'm sorry, but in cockpit view, I always get the impression I am sitting in the back seat, or wearing someone else's glasses prescription, that makes everything look further away! And someone has stuck blinkers on me.
Trust me on this one (or go play Shift and take a look for yourselves), but windshield cam, if it DOES show the hood and enough bodywork to start shaking around as you get faster and go over bumps (rather than GT'5 the car stays stable as your HEAD starts shaking around!), and this can be VERY immersive without restricting your view as much as cockpit cam...
Is it perfect...? No. But it's no more WRONG than cockpit cam, IMO. Combined with the visual jostling, which I think is the thing that cockpit view drivers feel as the main thing that gives them an impression of SPEED and immersion, even though they might THINK it is seeing all the cockpit details. It is them moving around.
Shift, IMO, got it right. You vision doesn't blur as much as the car vibrates and shakes. If it did, you couldn't drive.
The hell of it all, I suppose, is NEITHER view in GT5 is any good. Cockpit is too restrictive for real life, and (invisible) hood cam is too stable and disembodied.
JMO
It could be my imagination, but all of the cockpit views display speed in KPH. If you've grown up being used to MPH, having it displayed in KPH is somewhat annoying. Apart from 100kph being 62mph and multiples, thereof, I struggle to calculate what my speed is in mph in the blink of an eye.
That said, from a driveability perspective, bumper view works for me every time.
I think the detailed cockpits come into their own in photomode, but otherwise, the insane wobble just gives me a headache when racing.
That said, from a driveability perspective, bumper view works for me every time.
I think the detailed cockpits come into their own in photomode, but otherwise, the insane wobble just gives me a headache when racing.
- 308
That is what cockpit fans do not understand.
THE SO CALLED BUMPER VIEW IS NOT A FREAKIN' BUMPER VIEW - IT'S DAMN COCKPITLESS VIEW. IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME PERSPECTIVE WITHOUT THE DISTURBING GRAPHICS.
This has already been proved. Check earlier posts in this thread.
So it is indeed a windshield view wrongfully known as bumper view.
DAMN!!!
- 9,295
- Duisburg
So it is indeed a windshield view wrongfully known as bumper view.
DAMN!!!
Doesn't make invisible bonnets, engines, fenders, wheels, bumpers and so on any more realistic, does it?
- 308
Doesn't make invisible bonnets, engines, fenders, wheels, bumpers and so on any more realistic, does it?
OK maybe then the perfect solution would be the bumper view (which is not bumper view LOL) with the bonnet being shown in the lower part and just the wipers too.
You do not see the car's wheels/fenders through the windshield IRL anyway... Just part of the bonnet and the wipers.
Destinkeys
(Banned)
- 1,199
- Destinkeys
Just a question, but, to anyone using the head tracking system...
Does the game calibrate it? I mean, you would think put a dot on the screen. Have it move slowly around, and ask you to move your head until you are looking STRAIGHT at it as it moves all over the screen. Is that what happens?
How well does it work?
I would have though, for the purposes of expanding your viewpoint no further than the corners of the screen, it's pretty decent. But, if they push it to an almost side view, you have that problem of moving the head to the side, but having to look through the corners of your eyes. Small head movements, I can see it. Too look from one side of the screen to another by moving your head, from say 4-5 feet away involves what? 30º or so? Less?
If the head tracker can accurately track small amounts like this, it could be used to accurately do what you really do. But I imagine they have exaggerated it. Am I right? Is there a good head tracker thread that goes into this, in relation to hood cam vs. cockpit cam?
Does the game calibrate it? I mean, you would think put a dot on the screen. Have it move slowly around, and ask you to move your head until you are looking STRAIGHT at it as it moves all over the screen. Is that what happens?
How well does it work?
I would have though, for the purposes of expanding your viewpoint no further than the corners of the screen, it's pretty decent. But, if they push it to an almost side view, you have that problem of moving the head to the side, but having to look through the corners of your eyes. Small head movements, I can see it. Too look from one side of the screen to another by moving your head, from say 4-5 feet away involves what? 30º or so? Less?
If the head tracker can accurately track small amounts like this, it could be used to accurately do what you really do. But I imagine they have exaggerated it. Am I right? Is there a good head tracker thread that goes into this, in relation to hood cam vs. cockpit cam?
Destinkeys
(Banned)
- 1,199
- Destinkeys
Doesn't make invisible bonnets, engines, fenders, wheels, bumpers and so on any more realistic, does it?
I guess the point is, BOTH views are wrong. But hood cam is fixable. Cockpit cam isn't, until we get one of those 120º wrap around monster HDTV's (and most of us can't afford 3D, let alone those!).
Have you seen Shift's hood cam?
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Exactly, there is no really realistic view in GT5. The reason I mentioned the fenders and whatnot was more of a joke... With an invisible hood, you'd see the exposed engine, with a invisible hood and engine, you'd see the wheels and so on.
Either way, with a single screen, you'd need a view that's essentially a hood view where the camera is placed directly behind the windshield, to show rain and wupers and whatnot.
Plus, a cardboard cutout cockpit if the car you'd be driving i to find around your TV screen (this is optional, though
). Most importantly, you'd need a way to look around. Headtracking is a good idea in that regard, but not working as well as necessary. When driving a car, your view isn't static... Either way, in my opinion, being able to dele the steering wheel, set the height of the camera inside the cockpit and the distance to the windshield, as well as the zoom factor would be the easiest way to create a somewhat realistic view. Oh, and an option to make the bumpy less bumpy. I like it the way it is, but others seem to hate it, so... Why not 
That's actually not just the point, but my point
And, yeah, Shift's hood view would've been a neat addition to GT5. I'd prbabl use that over the current cockpit view. Depending on the car, at least.
- 1,210
- Sydney
I dont even know why you guys bother arguing whether cockpit view is usefull in terms of viewing properties. Cockpit is meant to obstruct your view, just like in real life.
The killer flaw is not that, but when you turn them wheel 90 degrees the in game wheel barely moves 30. IMO the wheel rotation matching reality is one of the most cruical things in cockvit view.
Otherwise your seeing a car take a hairpin with the wheel turned at 90 degree off-centre in game yet the car is behaving like your on full lock.
Also seeing two steering wheels turning in front of you both at different rates is just mega off putting.
So IMo until the have 1:1 steerting animations (which is etremley easy to do, they had it working in prologue beta) I wont be caring or bothering with the cockpit view.
The killer flaw is not that, but when you turn them wheel 90 degrees the in game wheel barely moves 30. IMO the wheel rotation matching reality is one of the most cruical things in cockvit view.
Otherwise your seeing a car take a hairpin with the wheel turned at 90 degree off-centre in game yet the car is behaving like your on full lock.
Also seeing two steering wheels turning in front of you both at different rates is just mega off putting.
So IMo until the have 1:1 steerting animations (which is etremley easy to do, they had it working in prologue beta) I wont be caring or bothering with the cockpit view.
- 7,765
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
First of all the "bumper" view is not bumper view - it actually IS cockpitless view (i.e. same view - no graphics). Check this thread's earlier posts it has been proven with images.
Tell me another thing as well, does a real driver see 4 hands and 2 steering wheels when driving?
Bring your TV between your actual steering wheel and your head without seeing your arms and then I will be the first to admit it's the most realistic view... But the way it is now, it's just not it...
This thread is driving me crazy
I know that bumper view isn't actually a bumper view, the name's just stuck & people know what you mean when you say it. I call it "Invisible Car View", but whatever you want to call it, it is most certainly unrealistic as anyone with a firm grip on reality knows that real cars are not invisible!
Also, "bumper" view places you in the middle of the car which is even more unrealistic, whereas in cockpit view you are off to one side, unless driving single seaters of course.You're right that for wheel users having an on screen wheel can be annoying & I hate the fact that we don't have the option to hide it. I sit with my G25 & Playseat as close to the screen as possibe with the onscreen dash at the same hieght & would like to be able to hide the wheel. Saying that, if you're a pad user then having an onscreen wheel is more realistic & some wheel users would argue that having an onscreen wheel is more realistic as they can see the actual wheel of any given car, which is different to their G25/G27's or whatever. When you use cockpit view it's essential to set 2 buttons to look left & right, otherwise you're just restricting the view even further.
Cockpit view IS the most realistic view, fact! That's not to say it's totally real cos you can't ever do that via a TV screen, the point is out of all the available views it is the one that coresponds to reality the most. Like I said before, no real racing driver races whilst strapped to the roof, levitating up in the air 20 foot behind his car or whilst driving an invisible vehicle!
Last year I drove 2 real race cars at a track day & have to say that, going from the expereince of racing for years in GT5 Prologue with cockpit view to reality I really didn't notice much difference, other than in reality you have peripheral vision & thus can see a bit more. By the way, I like this thread & glad you posted it!
Last edited:
- 1,155
- gtp_iLex
The immersion is a bit better for me in cockpit view. This is especially true when it rains. Yesterday I drove the AMG challenge in the rain (hadn't done that yet) and loved how the view is terrible and all you want is for the challenge to end so you can have a cup of hot cocoa....
Edit: Oh, and don't forget the headlights of the car behind you reflecting in your cockpit.
Edit: Oh, and don't forget the headlights of the car behind you reflecting in your cockpit.
Last edited:
Well, it's a fact that in your opinion, it's the most realistic view. Some people find it very immersive, but that doesn't mean that other people do. I find that seeing another pair of hands in front of me is interesting, visually, but creates a disjointed and unrealistic experience for me. So I'd say it's a matter of opinion, not fact.
R34EVO9
(Banned)
- 767
- USA.CT
- h3llaflshh
I like the cockpit view alot i find myself racing from that view only and when i go to drive a standard car i cant even drive from bumper cam.
So its all about where you drive the most. My roommate only drove in the hood cam ( i dont know how) and he was just as good as me so its all about preference and what you use the most
The only thing I hate about cockpit view is the shift animation
So its all about where you drive the most. My roommate only drove in the hood cam ( i dont know how) and he was just as good as me so its all about preference and what you use the most
The only thing I hate about cockpit view is the shift animation
- 926
- machschnel
I know that bumper view isn't actually a bumper view, the name's just stuck & people know what you mean when you say it. I call it "Invisible Car View", but whatever you want to call it, it is most certainly unrealistic as anyone with a firm grip on reality knows that real cars are not invisible!
You're right that for wheel users having an on screen wheel can be annoying & I hate the fact that we don't have the option to hide it. I sit with my G25 & Playseat as close to the screen as possibe with the onscreen dash at the same hieght & would like to be able to hide the wheel. Saying that, if you're a pad user then having an onscreen wheel is more realistic & some wheel users would argue that having an onscreen wheel is more realistic as they can see the actual wheel of any given car, which is different to their G25/G27's or whatever. When you use cockpit view it's essential to set 2 buttons to look left & right, otherwise you're just restricting the view even further.
Cockpit view IS the most realistic view, fact! That's not to say it's totally real cos you can't ever do that via a TV screen, the point is out of all the available views it is the one that coresponds to reality the most. Like I said before, no real racing driver races whilst strapped to the roof, levitating up in the air 20 foot behind his car or whilst driving an invisible vehicle!
Last year I drove 2 real race cars at a track day & have to say that, going from the expereince of racing for years in GT5 Prologue with cockpit view to reality I really didn't notice much difference, other than in reality you have peripheral vision & thus can see a bit more. By the way, I like this thread & glad you posted it!
How "realistic" can it be if Polyphony didn't even bother to implement it on around 80% of the cars in it's so called "Real Driving Simulator"?
- 342
- hjlamont
ive just started really using cockpit view and i must say it makes GT5 a lot more fun. sure my lap times are slower than in other views, but its a racing simulator and is closer to real life. i dont hover 15 foot in the air over the back of my car when im driving after all.....
- 316
- The Ozone
- steveween
I don't mind having two steering wheels as it were . And I don't always have my wheel hooked up . I tend to play GT5 as a video game rather than a sim racer . That said I love cockpit view . I feel that the player gets to experience more of the car with it . And thats why I play the game , to experience great cars like the TZ2 or XJ13 . I'm not as concerned with getting the fastest time or all golds . But it's just a difference of playing style and thats why games have different views to choose from . Different strokes as they say
- 1,103
- NY
- Tommy_861
I'm probably gonna regret bringing this thread back from the dead again, but I found ANOTHER article about SIM Sickness and Nick Wirth says it can be overcome. I don't really agree, I've tried a lot to play FPS games and I can't shake getting sick.
http://www.racer.com/wirth-sim-sickness-can-be-overcome/article/196318/?DCMP=EMC-RACER_DAILY
http://www.racer.com/wirth-sim-sickness-can-be-overcome/article/196318/?DCMP=EMC-RACER_DAILY
- 54
- el_fas3g
i always use the cockpit veiw they are beautifull its very use full to use the tac for shifting its takes some time to get useto when changing cars but cockpit feal more natural to me since thats all i have used since proluge and other f1 games i have never tried the bumper cam but it seams to be most pupular and for a reason but i have done all licences in gold all special events gold in cockpit veiw ima defently sticking with it
- 2,840
The best thing about cockpit view is that it places you in the correct position in the car ie. in the driver's seat. While bumper view is ok, it's too far forward so you don't a good feel for the weight transfer of the car. Roof cam for standards is ok but it's too high.
So yeah occasionally it can be a bit difficult to see in cockpit view but it's still the most realistic viewpoint
So yeah occasionally it can be a bit difficult to see in cockpit view but it's still the most realistic viewpoint
- 881
- Finland
- Sohvakettu
Now that i have entered the HD era myself i still haven't changed in to the cockpit view. It's strange because in PC simulators i always used the cockpit view. Maybe it's the lack of look in to apex option or maybe GT5 is more of a game to me than a sim. I also drive a lot of standard cars...
- 321
- Australia
- Cyber77__
I love the cockpit view BUT don't use it anymore due to the ridiculous amount of screen shake . Unless you are driving at 85-90% it is to hard to see the track and lets face it who drives a racing game/sim at 85-90%. I just wish you could tame it down a bit .
. Unless you are driving at 85-90% it is to hard to see the track and lets face it who drives a racing game/sim at 85-90%. I just wish you could tame it down a bit .- 10
im finding this to be very true. ive used "bumper" cam since gt1 and it is what i was used to. now fast forward several years and i have gained quite a bit of driving experience IRL. i switched (just recently) to cockpit view and my times have gone down quite a bit. although i cant feel the weight shifting during breaking and cornering, i can still sense it from cockpit pov. its making it easier to tune the cars to how i drive.
- 285
Best cockpit view is the Ferrari F2007 (I don't have the F10 but I imagine it would be the same). I've been using bumper view most of the time, and the F2007 was the first time I truly enjoyed cockpit view. Check it out.
What they need to do is to make the A-pillar semi-transparent because in real-life you would have both of your eyes focused on the road so the A-pillar won't be blocking so much of your vision.
Don't believe me? Try this: Keep reading this message while putting a finger a few inches in front of your face, you should still be able to read the text just fine while the finger looks blurred.
What they need to do is to make the A-pillar semi-transparent because in real-life you would have both of your eyes focused on the road so the A-pillar won't be blocking so much of your vision.
Don't believe me? Try this: Keep reading this message while putting a finger a few inches in front of your face, you should still be able to read the text just fine while the finger looks blurred.
- 1,139
- budious
Cockpit view I can't find much of a use for... on some foreign cars there is right side steering, I'm used to left side... GT Auto needs a driver side conversion function that would remap the y-axis of the cockpit view modeling since many importers do offer that kind of conversion to make their cars street legal. Others just have bad viewing angles and obstructions... I only found one car so far that I actually like playing from the cockpit view from and that is the Camaro Z/28 '69 RM'd.
The cockpits in GT5 looks awesome once some sunlight comes inside. However the shadows are way overdone and makes it almost pitch black.
Take a ride in the Shelby Cobra, one of very few cars u can ride without a roof. It's totally awesome. I wish they'd let us do that in all the other cabrios in the game. Or at least reduce the effect from shadows inside the car.
They put so much work into making those dashboards only to hide them in the shadows.
Take a ride in the Shelby Cobra, one of very few cars u can ride without a roof. It's totally awesome. I wish they'd let us do that in all the other cabrios in the game. Or at least reduce the effect from shadows inside the car.
They put so much work into making those dashboards only to hide them in the shadows.
- 1,973
- Florida - USA
- Flsurffisher
Cockpit view and 3 screens give you the most realistic view from a drivers perspective possible.
Similar threads
