Competitive Racing License

[Pubs16]

It’s done my head in how some people just don’t get it and just plain outright blame the licence system... I’ve given up lol.

Aside from bugs that affect starts and starting new sessions etc, everything is fair and black and white, how else can you have a fairer and straight forward system?

 

[ojgt]

Iracing's system is more or less the same and has been working fine for years. Sure it feels unfair to lose safety score because of someone else ramming into you but that's the only way to do it and if you're a clean racer then over time you will end up in these situations less often than the dirty ones and have a higher rank.

 

[rono_thomas]

If it's a good lobby (clean racers, close racing) then most people will stay anyway.

The Mechanics of what you’re describing is a difficult scenario to replicate because;

If it's partly a parade strung out over half a lap then I'd say that the parade part wasn't what was providing good entertainment.

Then we may as well pack up our sim racing hobbies now. This will happen more often than not. Lets assume for aguements sake that the grid is packed with equal speed drivers, they all get off the line together. Need some definition on what is deemed as close racing, is it wheel to wheel lap after lap, or is it following the car in front? With how much of a gap? Lap after lap? Lets use them both, P1 P2 and P3 get a great start, they’ve settled into a lap after lap procession with 4 seconds separating them. How ever P4 and P5 are racing wheel to wheel, for at least a lap nobody is able to get out on top, this driving lines are compromised lap times are slower, P6 is sat behind them waiting for his turn but cant get passed, meanwhile P1-P3 they are now 10 seconds up the road. This scenario gets repeated down the grid. Anyway my point being that most races will settle into a parade of some sort. Just because it is should not be ok for last place to think stuff this I’ll quit the lobby.

I'd say pretty much the same as I did for point 1 - would it really have been less boring if they'd stayed?

Not any less satisfying but for all left in the race the sense of accomplishment is so much greater.

Ok so the grid starts with 10, 1-2 drop out as a given as you say, then this follows with another 2 dropping out. So 6th place finishes last, well that’s pretty crap, Why do the losers quit when they are losing?

Im going to use fifa seasons as an example here. You start a game, your 2-0 up after 5 mins, it’s commonplace for folk to lose connection with you then, they don’t want to get beat anymore, so by your definition Fifa should not penalise the player who ran away because they were losing, but it does, and the losing player gets 0 points whilst the winning player gets Maximum points.

Why do games do this? Its a behaviour change and something that should be considered winning isnt everything.

Motor racing is different though can only be one winner, so its a case of losing isn’t everything. That is why quitters should be punished and not the same as finishing last.

so doesn't fall into my category of "no longer an active part of the race".

Everybody every positions are an active part of a race for the psychology Ive nentioned above.

would it really make any difference to the rest of the race if they quit?

Would it really make any difference if they quit to the pits, or stayed in lobby- yes its to change behaviour.

I'm most against the penalty being part of the skill score. I'm not sure it would be much better as part of the safety rating, but it would mean that the skill score stays pure. That matters because the current penalty takes points out of circulation. Say you're in a race against someone who has recently lost 100 points from quitting out a few times, and you beat them. Then you get a lot less points for that win.

May be there’s something here... part of safety rating No. There is however a part of the License that means very little that could be adapted and thats the Experience colour.

 

[R9NALD9]

Still lingering around on D...

Out of the 31 online races I've completed (33 starts) I've had 1 race where I saw no ramming. At Fuji GP with a field of 9 cars I thought chaos will erupt at the very tight first corner...but love and behold nothing...I couldn't believe it and almost shed a tear of joy. It made my decision to coast to the first corner in last place irrelevant. Slowly picked my way up the order to finish 4th.

Next race at Indianapolis with Indy cars...rolling start. 2 Seconds after race start and it is just cars flying all over the place...

I wish I could have more experiences like at Fuji.

The license system however is the best system I've seen and regardless of what system in place people will find a way to abuse it.

 

[Outspacer]

The Mechanics of what you’re describing is a difficult scenario to replicate because;

Then we may as well pack up our sim racing hobbies now. This will happen more often than not. Lets assume for aguements sake that the grid is packed with equal speed drivers, they all get off the line together. Need some definition on what is deemed as close racing, is it wheel to wheel lap after lap, or is it following the car in front? With how much of a gap? Lap after lap? Lets use them both, P1 P2 and P3 get a great start, they’ve settled into a lap after lap procession with 4 seconds separating them. How ever P4 and P5 are racing wheel to wheel, for at least a lap nobody is able to get out on top, this driving lines are compromised lap times are slower, P6 is sat behind them waiting for his turn but cant get passed, meanwhile P1-P3 they are now 10 seconds up the road. This scenario gets repeated down the grid. Anyway my point being that most races will settle into a parade of some sort. Just because it is should not be ok for last place to think stuff this I’ll quit the lobby.

I think you know what I meant, because I've said it enough times in different ways. Situations where the last places have no hope of changing order whatsoever. Where if last place quits and only their name remains in the ranking list as a DNF, it makes no difference to the final result order.

(Because in other cases, someone quitting from higher up, there are already taking a points hit by dropping themselves down to last).

Not any less satisfying but for all left in the race the sense of accomplishment is so much greater.

Ok so the grid starts with 10, 1-2 drop out as a given as you say, then this follows with another 2 dropping out. So 6th place finishes last, well that’s pretty crap, Why do the losers quit when they are losing?

What I'm saying is that that 6th place isn't last, it's above the 4 that quit out. Keeping the quitters' names in the ranking list is important - for exactly the reason you give there, to avoid it being the crappy last place that happens otherwise.

Quitters quit (mostly) when they have no hope of getting a different position. Since quitting from anywhere higher than last would anyway lose a player points (possibly quite a lot if they are ahead of even one much lower ranked player), we're mostly talking about last position.

Im going to use fifa seasons as an example here. You start a game, your 2-0 up after 5 mins, it’s commonplace for folk to lose connection with you then, they don’t want to get beat anymore, so by your definition Fifa should not penalise the player who ran away because they were losing, but it does, and the losing player gets 0 points whilst the winning player gets Maximum points.

Why do games do this? Its a behaviour change and something that should be considered winning isnt everything.

Motor racing is different though can only be one winner, so its a case of losing isn’t everything. That is why quitters should be punished and not the same as finishing last.

Fifa isn't a good example because the final result isn't settled. The player quitting denies the opponent the chance to make it 5-0 or whatever. In a race, quitting from a no-hoper last position makes no difference whatsoever to the final result.

That racers have to get used to not always winning really isn't part of this. As I already said, someone quitting from mid-pack because they're annoyed at losing their pole position still takes a pretty big hit on their skill rating just by being considered last.

Everybody every positions are an active part of a race for the psychology Ive nentioned above.

Would it really make any difference if they quit to the pits, or stayed in lobby- yes its to change behaviour.

So quitting to pits and sitting there, or retiring and staying in the lobby, shouldn't be punished?

May be there’s something here... part of safety rating No. There is however a part of the License that means very little that could be adapted and thats the Experience colour.

I'm glad we found at least a little common ground! Not saying it's the best way, but I'd have no objection to it being tracked through a further score, which could simply be a 'completion percentage' or something like that.

 

[Mr Tree]

I think you know what I meant, because I've said it enough times in different ways. Situations where the last places have no hope of changing order whatsoever. Where if last place quits and only their name remains in the ranking list as a DNF, it makes no difference to the final result order.

(Because in other cases, someone quitting from higher up, there are already taking a points hit by dropping themselves down to last).



What I'm saying is that that 6th place isn't last, it's above the 4 that quit out. Keeping the quitters' names in the ranking list is important - for exactly the reason you give there, to avoid it being the crappy last place that happens otherwise.

Quitters quit (mostly) when they have no hope of getting a different position. Since quitting from anywhere higher than last would anyway lose a player points (possibly quite a lot if they are ahead of even one much lower ranked player), we're mostly talking about last position.



Fifa isn't a good example because the final result isn't settled. The player quitting denies the opponent the chance to make it 5-0 or whatever. In a race, quitting from a no-hoper last position makes no difference whatsoever to the final result.

That racers have to get used to not always winning really isn't part of this. As I already said, someone quitting from mid-pack because they're annoyed at losing their pole position still takes a pretty big hit on their skill rating just by being considered last.



So quitting to pits and sitting there, or retiring and staying in the lobby, shouldn't be punished?



I'm glad we found at least a little common ground! Not saying it's the best way, but I'd have no objection to it being tracked through a further score, which could simply be a 'completion percentage' or something like that.

Sorry but you don't like the punnishing system because it's harsh. This proves it makes people think twice before quitting.making it less harsh would undercut that effect...

Now on the fifa analogy not beeing correct... You're wrong. 2-0 or 5-0 is either the same result (player one won) or a diffrent result due to diffrent score. But if it's a diffrent result then how many seconds one finishes behind the first place is the same as a diffrent score.

If only endresult counts (what you claim in racing) it just is about winning or losing and score doesn't matter.

Imo leaving isn't punished enough. One should be prevented to search for an other online race for at least 30minutes if he left the previous one. That would make people think twice before they leave...

 

[rono_thomas]

I think you know what I meant, because I've said it enough times in different ways. Situations where the last places have no hope of changing order whatsoever. Where if last place quits and only their name remains in the ranking list as a DNF, it makes no difference to the final result order.

Then in my opinion they can retire to the pits. Quitting the lobby is too much of a rage quit, or throwing the toys out of a pram quit.

Quitters quit (mostly) when they have no hope of getting a different position

As above retire to the pits. Why leave the lobby?

Fifa isn't a good example because the final result isn't settled. The player quitting denies the opponent the chance to make it 5-0

Yes it does because goal difference is not tracked.

So quitting to pits and sitting there, or retiring and staying in the lobby, shouldn't be punished?

Yes it is, but less so. Again why leave the lobby (i see many sitting in the pits in races when they for example can't be bothered)

So my question is now why do they need to quit the lobby why if you can retire to pits and avoid the bigger point deduction is that not an ok solution?

I'm glad we found at least a little common ground! Not saying it's the best way, but I'd have no objection to it being tracked through a further score, which could simply be a 'completion percentage' or something like that.

Imo leaving isn't punished enough. One should be prevented to search for an other online race for at least 30minutes if he left the previous one. That would make people think twice before they leave...

Maybe a three strike quit gives a time out.

 

[Mr Tree]

@rono_thomas I dig the 3strike time-out idea!

@Outspacer I retire to pitbox when I notice myself getting very aggitated due to mistakes that race. The cba rono was talking about. If you've got some friend on chat even this is fun. Cheering for your friends as they proceed in the race is a good 'timeprogressor' and makes the racegroup come even closer to eachother having more fun!

 

[Outspacer]

Sorry but you don't like the punnishing system because it's harsh. This proves it makes people think twice before quitting.making it less harsh would undercut that effect...

Now on the fifa analogy not beeing correct... You're wrong. 2-0 or 5-0 is either the same result (player one won) or a diffrent result due to diffrent score. But if it's a diffrent result then how many seconds one finishes behind the first place is the same as a diffrent score.

If only endresult counts (what you claim in racing) it just is about winning or losing and score doesn't matter.

Imo leaving isn't punished enough. One should be prevented to search for an other online race for at least 30minutes if he left the previous one. That would make people think twice before they leave...

If you're going to assume me to be a potential quitter moaning, after all I've written here, then you couldn't be more wrong and I doubt we'll be able to have any reasonable discussion.

If I find myself last I carry on. At least in clear space I'll be able to hopefully do some good times and show I can be quicker than some of those ahead in the race. That's my mindset.

But we're talking about people with a different mindset, those who might quit out. What happens when someone is forced to remain somewhere they don't want to be? Nothing good. At best they might roll on round harmlessly. You can't force someone to actually still push, to get a representative result. So the time they're beaten by still means absolutely bugger all.

Yes it is, but less so. Again why leave the lobby (i see many sitting in the pits in races when they for example can't be bothered)

So my question is now why do they need to quit the lobby why if you can retire to pits and avoid the bigger point deduction is that not an ok solution?

The thing is, if you think that, then all other arguments over how quitting affects the race are completely void.

 

[Mr Tree]

If you're going to assume me to be a potential quitter moaning, after all I've written here, then you couldn't be more wrong and I doubt we'll be able to have any reasonable discussion.

If I find myself last I carry on. At least in clear space I'll be able to hopefully do some good times and show I can be quicker than some of those ahead in the race. That's my mindset.

But we're talking about people with a different mindset, those who might quit out. What happens when someone is forced to remain somewhere they don't want to be? Nothing good. At best they might roll on round harmlessly. You can't force someone to actually still push, to get a representative result. So the time they're beaten by still means absolutely bugger all.



The thing is, if you think that, then all other arguments over how quitting affects the race are completely void.

You don't have to be a quitter to find the penalty for quitting to harsh, so no I wasn't assuming yiu're a quitter. Like you said your previous posts suggest otherwise, what I did read is you beeing ok with quitters.

I dislike quitters, when yoy start a race you should stay around the track for finish...
This could be a leftover from the days I played MOBA's in which quiting does affect gameoutcome.

The guys not willing to stay who stay and ruin others races will plummet their safteyrating rather fast. And thus be unable to join your room, so I personally don't see the issue.

You're entitled to you opinion of coarse. I'm.just the person who thinks if tou commit for a race you race a full race if not don't join the race... What happened to the world where people can't commit to a full game?

 

[Pubs16]

Does retiring to the pits give a same penalty as to quitting? Say if you were mechanically disabled? I haven’t experienced this yet.

But we're talking about people with a different mindset, those who might quit out. What happens when someone is forced to remain somewhere they don't want to be? Nothing good. At best they might roll on round harmlessly. You can't force someone to actually still push, to get a representative result. So the time they're beaten by still means absolutely bugger all.

The thing is, if you think that, then all other arguments over how quitting affects the race are completely void.

Dude I agree with @rono_thomas and @Mr Tree ’s points fully.
It’s not just a mindset, it IS the sport. You don’t see any race where last place is X laps down with “no hope” of improving, and just retire from the race, even if it’s just for track time testing purposes to you* finish out the laps (unless in circumstances they would be actually be classed as not enough distance in certain rules, resulting in a DNF anyway). Even then, I’m fairly sure they don’t exist in Project Cars 2 unless you’re doing a league.

If they’re being “forced” to remain there then why enter the race at all? Everyone is fully aware of the race distance before you join, that’s a drawing point for a lot of people. If they were winning or on a podium, or mid-pack they would have more of a feel to push on yes but you obviously don’t know that at the start. Which brings it back to the mindset OF the sport, it’s how it is, you start a race, you perform your best and you finish to get a placing, whether it be #1 or #16.

That’s why it needs to be more penalised to deter those attitudes. Placing mid-pack, simply improving one place or losing one place is way more valuable to the overall outcome of your licence for the end result over your history.

 

[BrandonW77]

You don’t see any race where last place is X laps down with “no hope” of improving, and just retire from the race,

Well, there was that one time at Spa, maybe, possibly. Not that anyone could blame him...

 

[rono_thomas]

The thing is, if you think that, then all other arguments over how quitting affects the race are completely void.

Ok I get that. So I’ll add a three more reasons into the mix (there are many others).

From what I can tell your argument against stems from a skill score not quite being representative, but like I said should a quitter find it easy to maintain a score for example 4000? No again.

1, Lets consider esports. We know that the license will be used as entry. Quitting should not even be entertained in the esports side of it. The mindset of such a quitter would undermine the competitive side of such a competition, and in my opinion cheapen the competition. There needs to be a way to identify a quitter.

2, Which leads me onto the skill rating, and if its representative - Im now going to flat out argue yes, does it take skill to quit? No. That is giving up when things dont go your way.

3, particular to me, I want to race longer races, not just six laps or even 10. What is the point in setting this up if after 5mins of a 60 minute race and I’m leading by 30sec and people decide this is pointless that they all get to quit with no repercussion?

 

[Pubs16]

Well, there was that one time at Spa, maybe, possibly. Not that anyone could blame him...

Haha I stand slightly corrected, a tough season in that particular case, at that point in the season would be an exception I’m sure .

 

[Outspacer]

You don't have to be a quitter to find the penalty for quitting to harsh, so no I wasn't assuming yiu're a quitter. Like you said your previous posts suggest otherwise, what I did read is you beeing ok with quitters.

I dislike quitters, when yoy start a race you should stay around the track for finish...
This could be a leftover from the days I played MOBA's in which quiting does affect gameoutcome.

I'm not particularly "ok with quitters". Yet I'm not happy with "quitting is bad, punish them hard" either - I don't think it's the best solution, and that mindset seems far too simplistic. What I've been trying to do with this train of thought is work out what might work better for everyone. It's gone on for some pages now, and the discussion has covered all kinds of aspects of behaviour and scoring and so on. Even if you don't agree with me, it's probably clear that I put some thought into my posts.

The guys not willing to stay who stay and ruin others races will plummet their safteyrating rather fast. And thus be unable to join your room, so I personally don't see the issue.

That would certainly be an issue for those in that room at that time! It would be worse for them than if he quit. Maybe that wanna-quitter doesn't get back in... for a while.

You're entitled to you opinion of coarse. I'm.just the person who thinks if tou commit for a race you race a full race if not don't join the race... What happened to the world where people can't commit to a full game?

It carried on turning, and we carried on racing

Does retiring to the pits give a same penalty as to quitting? Say if you were mechanically disabled? I haven’t experienced this yet.

For this discussion, it's probably worth people saying what they think it should do, as well as what it does do.

Dude I agree with @rono_thomas and @Mr Tree ’s points fully.
It’s not just a mindset, it IS the sport. You don’t see any race where last place is X laps down with “no hope” of improving, and just retire from the race, even if it’s just for track time testing purposes to finish out the laps (unless in circumstances they would be actually be classed as not enough distance in certain rules, resulting in a DNF anyway). Even then, I’m fairly sure they don’t exist in Project Cars 2 unless you’re doing a league.

If they’re being “forced” to remain there then why enter the race at all? Everyone is fully aware of the race distance before you join, that’s a drawing point for a lot of people. If they were winning or on a podium, or mid-pack they would have more of a feel to push on yes but you obviously don’t know that at the start. Which brings it back to the mindset OF the sport, it’s how it is, you start a race, you perform your best and you finish to get a placing, whether it be #1 or #16.

I'm not arguing about what makes a good race/lobby, or a good competitor. I think we all agree on that. This is all about those who aren't, and how best to deal with them.

That’s why it needs to be more penalised to deter those attitudes. Placing mid-pack, simply improving one place or losing one place is way more valuable to the overall outcome of your licence for the end result over your history.

Absolutely. The way the scoring works, it would/could do that without an extra penalty for quitting. Let's say someone placed mid pack, everyone's set a representative quali time, and the field is roughly in order of their skill rating. Quitting from there would have it counted that they lost against the bottom half of the field - it's already a big hit for a medium skill to lose against a single low skill, let alone multiple of them. There is still that incentive to stay. And then what if that person was out of position, had a higher skill than some of those ahead? Even more points to lose if quitting. Even more incentive to stay and try get back to their natural (skill ranked) position.

 

[twitcher]

...
Nice fallacy of moving of the goalpost btw. You've been rznting how the system can be gamed but now suddenly it's that you get penalties for things you didn't do wrong?...

I realize your comment wasn't directed at me, but this statement above is true, gaming the system and being punished for otherwise safe racing procedure are not mutually exclusive.

Gaming the system involves knowing exactly what the system will let you get away with. Check my video, the incident at 1:19 in my video - what the black and blue M3 did to me is "gaming the system." It was dirty racing, but as long as you know how the system works, you can get away with it. The bigger issue is not that the M3 can get away with it without punishment, but rather than I get punished for something he did. THAT is gaming the system.

Being "penalized for something you didn't do wrong" is in reference to being punished for following real racing procedure, but being punished for doing what any real driver would. Check the penalty I get at 1:49. I avoid 2 slow moving cars, 1 of which is parked on the racing line. Because of the speed I'm going, I only have so much margin for making drastic avoiding maneuvers. I get in the dirty stuff exiting Ascari, and run wide right onto the curb and Astro turf - an area of Monza that you see used in nearly every single race you've ever watched there. That is being punished for following proper procedure (and because the devs were too lazy to map out track limits in a detailed fashion, just gave a one size fits all blanket solution to the issue).

Knowing how to make someone else cop a penalty while you get away with it is gaming the system.

Receiving penalties because someone else shoved you off the road is the system punishing you for something you didn't do. It's literally the opposite, it's you getting gamed by the system.

Online racing in public lobbies is more about who understands the penalty system the best, and who has spend the most time feeling their way around track limits to know what they can get away with.

Ian Bell says that track limits are "1/2 a car's width over the white line, except where there's curbs, we included the curbs." Aside from "1/2 a car width" being a completely terrible deciding factor since you can't feel "1/2 a car width" (whereas you can feel if you still have 2 tires on the racing surface), I clearly have 2 tires on the red/green/white curbing, yet still get the penalty.

Ya, the system is the same for all, but it's a pretty garbage system. Safety rating is based more on who's around you than on your own actions. Skill rating is based on who can stay connected the best. Penalties are unrealistic, easy to "game" if you're dirty, tough to avoid if you're clean.

Again, I stick to my statement that the people who made this system really don't spend much time racing is open lobbies, as this system is basically a troller's dream.

@Outspacer, if you're in a room with full damage, someone absolutely plies into you in T1, your car is damage to the point it cannot continue. You honestly think that person should stay in the room until the race is finished? That's kind of arrogant on your part that you expect others who can no longer participate to just sit around and watch so that you feel good at the end of the race when you look at the scoreboard.

Make a pit stop, game fails to properly change tires, or add fuel? Yup, the hard working father of 3 in his 1 hour of free time should definitely stay in that lobby and wait things out.

 

[Outspacer]

Ok I get that. So I’ll add a three more reasons into the mix (there are many others).

From what I can tell your argument against stems from a skill score not quite being representative, but like I said should a quitter find it easy to maintain a score for example 4000? No again.

They wouldn't keep a high score. They're scoring as last whenever they quit, which is already counting more against them if they have a decent score to begin with.

1, Lets consider esports. We know that the license will be used as entry. Quitting should not even be entertained in the esports side of it. The mindset of such a quitter would undermine the competitive side of such a competition, and in my opinion cheapen the competition. There needs to be a way to identify a quitter.

As above. For competition purposes it wouldn't matter if they weren't rated lower than someone who often finished last.

2, Which leads me onto the skill rating, and if its representative - Im now going to flat out argue yes, does it take skill to quit? No. That is giving up when things dont go your way.

As above.

3, particular to me, I want to race longer races, not just six laps or even 10. What is the point in setting this up if after 5mins of a 60 minute race and I’m leading by 30sec and people decide this is pointless that they all get to quit with no repercussion?

Well this is just going back over whether it's worth forcing them to stay - whether that actually gives you what you're looking for when setting up that lobby. I'd say it probably doesn't.

 

[rono_thomas]

I'm not particularly "ok with quitters". Yet I'm not happy with "quitting is bad, punish them hard" either - I don't think it's the best solution, and that mindset seems far too simplistic. What I've been trying to do with this train of thought is work out what might work better for everyone. It's gone on for some pages now, and the discussion has covered all kinds of aspects of behaviour and scoring and so on. Even if you don't agree with me, it's probably clear that I put some thought into my posts.



That would certainly be an issue for those in that room at that time! It would be worse for them than if he quit. Maybe that wanna-quitter doesn't get back in... for a while.



It carried on turning, and we carried on racing



For this discussion, it's probably worth people saying what they think it should do, as well as what it does do.



I'm not arguing about what makes a good race/lobby, or a good competitor. I think we all agree on that. This is all about those who aren't, and how best to deal with them.



Absolutely. The way the scoring works, it would/could do that without an extra penalty for quitting. Let's say someone placed mid pack, everyone's set a representative quali time, and the field is roughly in order of their skill rating. Quitting from there would have it counted that they lost against the bottom half of the field - it's already a big hit for a medium skill to lose against a single low skill, let alone multiple of them. There is still that incentive to stay. And then what if that person was out of position, had a higher skill than some of those ahead? Even more points to lose if quitting. Even more incentive to stay and try get back to their natural (skill ranked) position.

I’m going to add that perhaps a punishment can be avoided if 75% of the race distance has been raced. And still they could always retire to the pits.

 

[twitcher]

... leaving isn't punished enough. One should be prevented to search for an other online race for at least 30minutes if he left the previous one. That would make people think twice before they leave...

Would also make a lot of people think twice about joining in the first place.

 

[Mr Tree]

I realize your comment wasn't directed at me, but this statement above is true, gaming the system and being punished for otherwise safe racing procedure are not mutually exclusive.

Gaming the system involves knowing exactly what the system will let you get away with. Check my video, the incident at 1:19 in my video - what the black and blue M3 did to me is "gaming the system." It was dirty racing, but as long as you know how the system works, you can get away with it. The bigger issue is not that the M3 can get away with it without punishment, but rather than I get punished for something he did. THAT is gaming the system.

Being "penalized for something you didn't do wrong" is in reference to being punished for following real racing procedure, but being punished for doing what any real driver would. Check the penalty I get at 1:49. I avoid 2 slow moving cars, 1 of which is parked on the racing line. Because of the speed I'm going, I only have so much margin for making drastic avoiding maneuvers. I get in the dirty stuff exiting Ascari, and run wide right onto the curb and Astro turf - an area of Monza that you see used in nearly every single race you've ever watched there. That is being punished for following proper procedure (and because the devs were too lazy to map out track limits in a detailed fashion, just gave a one size fits all blanket solution to the issue).

Knowing how to make someone else cop a penalty while you get away with it is gaming the system.

Receiving penalties because someone else shoved you off the road is the system punishing you for something you didn't do. It's literally the opposite, it's you getting gamed by the system.

Online racing in public lobbies is more about who understands the penalty system the best, and who has spend the most time feeling their way around track limits to know what they can get away with.

Ian Bell says that track limits are "1/2 a car's width over the white line, except where there's curbs, we included the curbs." Aside from "1/2 a car width" being a completely terrible deciding factor since you can't feel "1/2 a car width" (whereas you can feel if you still have 2 tires on the racing surface), I clearly have 2 tires on the red/green/white curbing, yet still get the penalty.

Ya, the system is the same for all, but it's a pretty garbage system. Safety rating is based more on who's around you than on your own actions. Skill rating is based on who can stay connected the best. Penalties are unrealistic, easy to "game" if you're dirty, tough to avoid if you're clean.

Again, I stick to my statement that the people who made this system really don't spend much time racing is open lobbies, as this system is basically a troller's dream.

@Outspacer, if you're in a room with full damage, someone absolutely plies into you in T1, your car is damage to the point it cannot continue. You honestly think that person should stay in the room until the race is finished? That's kind of arrogant on your part that you expect others who can no longer participate to just sit around and watch so that you feel good at the end of the race when you look at the scoreboard.

Make a pit stop, game fails to properly change tires, or add fuel? Yup, the hard working father of 3 in his 1 hour of free time should definitely stay in that lobby and wait things out.

You're not wrong in saying the system isn't perfect, but from all the people who've stated.the system is garbage I haven't read one solution... And if they suggest something to the likes of regoster who made the mistake, now this would be a system setup for trolls...

You seem to have been thinkong about it properly, do you have a propper suggestion on how to make it better?

Also add me I run rooms often with people.from the forum and friends the more of us in the lobby the cleaner it'll get.

On should the father of 3 be forced to stay? No, but he isn't... For a father of 3 my advice would be to not care about.that stupid number at all and just quit. You've allready won the real game.

@Outspacer we just seem to think fundamentally diffrent on the subject. Your racefun isn't deminished by it. Mine is, I'm not the fastest and in pC1 I'd just race without a'y traffic around me as people ahead an.behind of me just quit due to 'not first' this was not fun and I havent checked online ever since that night...

Would also make a lot of people think twice about joining in the first place.

Which is exactly the reason I want it implemented... There should be this thoughtprocess 'do I have the time to race this?' if the answer is no, one shouldn't join imo

 

[Outspacer]

@Outspacer we just seem to think fundamentally diffrent on the subject. Your racefun isn't deminished by it. Mine is, I'm not the fastest and in pC1 I'd just race without a'y traffic around me as people ahead an.behind of me just quit due to 'not first' this was not fun and I havent checked online ever since that night...

My racefun depends... let's say I'm catching those ahead, and they quit out - then it's certainly diminished!! As I keep saying though, the scoring system would mean they'd lose points anyway, even without a distinct penalty, so they already have an incentive to stay.

It's a shame that we can't experience the scoring system (which at its core seems good) without the penalty, to see if people would start quitting out a lot. It would be interesting to compare the stats with and without it.

 

[rono_thomas]

My racefun depends... let's say I'm catching those ahead, and they quit out - then it's certainly diminished!! As I keep saying though, the scoring system would mean they'd lose points anyway, even without a distinct penalty, so they already have an incentive to stay.

It's a shame that we can't experience the scoring system (which at its core seems good) without the penalty, to see if people would start quitting out a lot. It would be interesting to compare the stats with and without it.

There are many lobbies that rating is turned off for. That can easily be answered if anyone here has raced in them?

 

[Outspacer]

There are many lobbies that rating is turned off for. That can easily be answered if anyone here has raced in them?

But then they don't have any incentive at all to stay... what I'm saying is based on the rating still being active.

 

[rono_thomas]

But then they don't have any incentive at all to stay... what I'm saying is based on the rating still being active.

Ok I’ll try another angle, in the order of

1st - last - quitter.

You think that quitter should be classified as equal to last, but how does the last place finisher feel about that, is that fair to them.

Obviously that doesn’t work in the same lobby so we have a lobby A and a Lobby B.

Last place in lobby A quits after turn 1 dramatics.

Last place in lobby B finished the race in last place after turn 1 dramatics.

They both receive the same for finishing last.

Last place in lobby realises this is how the system works and so in future races decides to quit.

Is this a behaviour you believe should be encouraged or facilitated?

 

[twitcher]

You're not wrong in saying the system isn't perfect, but from all the people who've stated.the system is garbage I haven't read one solution... And if they suggest something to the likes of regoster who made the mistake, now this would be a system setup for trolls...

You seem to have been thinkong about it properly, do you have a propper suggestion on how to make it better?

Also add me I run rooms often with people.from the forum and friends the more of us in the lobby the cleaner it'll get.

On should the father of 3 be forced to stay? No, but he isn't... For a father of 3 my advice would be to not care about.that stupid number at all and just quit. You've allready won the real game.

@Outspacer we just seem to think fundamentally diffrent on the subject. Your racefun isn't deminished by it. Mine is, I'm not the fastest and in pC1 I'd just race without a'y traffic around me as people ahead an.behind of me just quit due to 'not first' this was not fun and I havent checked online ever since that night...



Which is exactly the reason I want it implemented... There should be this thoughtprocess 'do I have the time to race this?' if the answer is no, one shouldn't join imo

My main issue with the current system is that it focuses too much on "punishing bad things", and as far as I can tell, doesn't do much to encourage good things (other than "don't be bad!").

Things like timing the lights well, overtakes, fast sectors, fast laps, leading laps, podiums, wins, top 5, clean sectors, clean laps, clean races, "near misses", finishing higher than you started - these types of things should be more heavily rewarded in the skill and Safety rating system.

The punishment to the skill rating for leaving/disconnecting/be kicked (that's a big one!) is extremely disproportionate and unbalanced to how much skill rating you can earn. I'm now at C1400 after 70 races. In any given race, I usually fluctuate by anywhere from +/- 1 to +/- 10. Last night, myself and the rest of a lobby were all kicked mid race by the host for no apparent reason. I lost 50 points. And based off nothing that has to do with skill.

I'm not losing sleep over it, but already now today, I've seen 2 lobbies that I would like to have joined, but can't because of my "skill" rating.


As far as the on-track penalties go, like the 2 in my video where I have to give the position back, both of those two specific cases could be solved by work in two areas. First, track limits need to be more accurately and realistically defined. The one size fits all solution of "1/2 a car width" just does not work at so many corners, especially when racing wheel to wheel or passing a slower moving car (think multiclass racing, in the night). It's a lot of work, but each circuit, each corner, needs to be looked at, along with real footage of racing at those circuits, and the track limits need to be drawn to reflect what is used in real life. Furthermore, while I do like the idea of the game having a "give the position back" system in it, I think the system needs to be messaged a bit, specifically in the area of being less strict on the car on the outside during corner exit. As things stand right now, it is far, far too easy for the car on the inside to run the car on the outside out past track limits, where they cop a penalty.

Edit:
Forgot to add, as far as doing things which discourage people from joining lobbies, I'm 100% against any of it. I'm looking at the open lobby right now, there's 9/20 lobbies with 1 person in them, 1 lobby has 12 people (5 laps at Monza in GT3, not joking), 3 have 7 people, the rest from 2-6. That's not good...what is this, the WTCC??? Anyone who spends a decent amount of time surfing the open lobbies knows this is pretty much standard affair.

 

[Outspacer]

Ok I’ll try another angle, in the order of

1st - last - quitter.

Seems you haven't understood what I'm suggesting........

You think that quitter should be classified as equal to last, but how does the last place finisher feel about that, is that fair to them.

Not equal to last, last. If there's another quitter, that one would be second to last. Etc. Just like DNF works in real races.

The last place actual finisher would be counted as ahead of any quitters.

Obviously that doesn’t work in the same lobby so we have a lobby A and a Lobby B.

Last place in lobby A quits after turn 1 dramatics.

Last place in lobby B finished the race in last place after turn 1 dramatics.

They both receive the same for finishing last.

Last place in lobby realises this is how the system works and so in future races decides to quit.

Is this a behaviour you believe should be encouraged or facilitated?

Your extended scenario doesn't give us anything new to discuss, and your question is just a rephrased one from earlier, but now using loaded words. Not being punished isn't the same as 'encouraged or facilitated'. Any more response than that and I'd just be repeating myself.

 

[rono_thomas]

Seems you haven't understood what I'm suggesting........



Not equal to last, last. If there's another quitter, that one would be second to last. Etc. Just like DNF works in real races.

The last place actual finisher would be counted as ahead of any quitters.



Your extended scenario doesn't give us anything new to discuss, and your question is just a rephrased one from earlier, but now using loaded words. Not being punished isn't the same as 'encouraged or facilitated'. Any more response than that and I'd just be repeating myself.

Your answering the question from the POV of the same lobby. Yes its the same question with more information added on. But your solution doesn’t work for both lobbies, when considering race distance covered.

You have considered a quitters time that they invest in your solution but Im asking you to consider the time invested by a last place finisher who completes full race distance.

I allowed you to phrase your answers as not an active part - this is flawed - every moving part is an active part until race distance is completed, the remainder of the race can’t be predicted.

Using your acceptance of a non active part of the race would mean full damage lobbies are pointless. And what could be more than you say a car that is a lap down can suddenly find itself back in the mix. Your solution doesn’t deter or encourage this scenario to happen.

 

[zr1chris]

Ok I’ll try another angle, in the order of

1st - last - quitter.

You think that quitter should be classified as equal to last, but how does the last place finisher feel about that, is that fair to them.

Obviously that doesn’t work in the same lobby so we have a lobby A and a Lobby B.

Last place in lobby A quits after turn 1 dramatics.

Last place in lobby B finished the race in last place after turn 1 dramatics.

They both receive the same for finishing last.

Last place in lobby realises this is how the system works and so in future races decides to quit.

Is this a behaviour you believe should be encouraged or facilitated?

So last place in both lobbies lost around 40 points each? If that's boosting, then have at it.

 

[rono_thomas]

So last place in both lobbies lost around 40 points each? If that's boosting, then have at it.

?? It was hypothetical.

 

[Outspacer]

Your answering the question from the POV of the same lobby. Yes its the same question with more information added on. But your solution doesn’t work for both lobbies, when considering race distance covered.

You have considered a quitters time that they invest in your solution but Im asking you to consider the time invested by a last place finisher who completes full race distance.

I allowed you to phrase your answers as not an active part - this is flawed - every moving part is an active part until race distance is completed, the remainder of the race can’t be predicted.

Using your acceptance of a non active part of the race would mean full damage lobbies are pointless. And what could be more than you say a car that is a lap down can suddenly find itself back in the mix. Your solution doesn’t deter or encourage this scenario to happen.

OK maybe I misunderstood the first part... are we on the same page that when for ease of typing we say "quitting counts equal to last" we really mean quitting puts them in a DNF position, in order?

A full damage lobby naturally gives an extra incentive for someone to stay, even if they are last, because it's more likely that someone ahead will have a problem. So no, lacking a penalty for quitting doesn't make them pointless at all.

But the rest, honestly, I can still only answer that by going back over what I've already said. Basically I think the core scoring system is good enough to stand on its own, without an extra penalty. We've moved on to talking about why people want to quit, what happens if you force them to stay, etc. All far more interesting than simply trying to win an unwinnable argument (and I mean that for both sides of the debate).