Competitive Racing License

[TommySalami]

I think a combination of safety rating and high skill rating will filter out the boosters. They can boost their safety all they want but their skill will remain weak if they're not out and racing others.

 

[rono_thomas]

Seems like you think all 3 parts of it are fairly pointless! In GTS beta I found that the most frustrating race destroying attacks came from people who'd worked out they could get away with one or two shunts, so they made them count - made sure you were in the gravel and had no chance of coming back at them. Add in that going off track also scores against you, and the race could end with them gaining SR while you don't!! And this could be after racing for some time thinking you've got a clean racer behind you. Booster lobbies not required.

Read this post again I think you miss understood what I wrote, I didn’t write it very clearly granted. I dont think the driver rating is useless at all, and as it gets its patch its going to be more valuable.

What I think is useless is this boosting a driver rating. Pointless other than for a trophy.

 

[TommySalami]

I've also heard from the PC players that there isn't a huge audience quite like the ps4 platform because of the other well established sims available for PC and most people that went for pCars2 on the PC were the lower level drivers as the absolute motor heads will stay on iRacing (those with deep pockets as well) and the others are sticking to their trusted rFactor2, RaceRoom, etc.

There are about 60 rooms going on during a typical evening, not counting empty servers. Not terrible since I like racing in GT cars and that's about 1/3 of them, but hopefully more people pick this up later on down the road. Those who play the other games tend to be ridiculously stubborn about which game they choose.

I've seen only one or two instances of purposeful wrecking, but the game ghosted their car and they went right through the other person. So far it's been pretty clean except for mid-pack on lap 1

 

[zr1chris]

I am literally racing in any lobby and I never see someone intentionally crash someone.

I will say I have seen this first hand. I had 1 race where I had someone turn directly into me as I tried to pass them down a straight, TWICE in the same race so I couldn't pass them.

 

[Outspacer]

Read this post again I think you miss understood what I wrote, I didn’t write it very clearly granted. I dont think the driver rating is useless at all, and as it gets its patch its going to be more valuable.

What I think is useless is this boosting a driver rating. Pointless other than for a trophy.

I was exaggerating my reading of your point of view Yet you did say for each that it didn't matter much to you if people gamed them.

We can only comment on what it is now, give our thoughts on how it might be improved (as I did here) and highlight the worst aspects. Maybe patches will improve it, big maybe. But not for while... bugfixes come first!

edit: I don't think that skill can be gamed, at least, not without a patsy to take points from. Even if someone does it, I'd welcome racing against them because it would be a big skill boost if I beat them!

 

[rono_thomas]

I was exaggerating my reading of your point of view Yet you did say for each that it didn't matter much to you if people gamed them.

We can only comment on what it is now, give our thoughts on how it might be improved (as I did here) and highlight the worst aspects. Maybe patches will improve it, big maybe. But not for while... bugfixes come first!

edit: I don't think that skill can be gamed, at least, not without a patsy to take points from. Even if someone does it, I'd welcome racing against them because it would be a big skill boost if I beat them!

Like I said Miss understood, again, and I am commenting in whats comming ....

That doesn’t work on PS4 I'm rated C and I can enter above. Likewise I can create a room with a minimum of C and U rated drivers can enter.

However, it does work with the numbers part of the license which seems backwards.

Bug and fixed on the PC-side last Friday. Will be fixed next PS4/XB1 patch.

 

[Outspacer]

Like I said Miss understood, again, and I am commenting in whats comming ....

What is coming is a bugfix for the room limits. Not any change to the scoring system itself, which is what we were discussing.

 

[rono_thomas]

What is coming is a bugfix for the room limits. Not any change to the scoring system itself, which is what we were discussing.

I disagree we were talking about manipulating the scoring system.

Which totally relates to room restrictions which was the whole point of my original post. I’ll try again.

This bug allows “boosters” to enter any room. Now we know its a matter of numbers how safety rating is classified, and safety rating is used to put first corner crashers with each other and safe with each other.

So lets say I can create a room of a safety rating of C and some “boosters” find their way in they will soon be involved in something or other. And their safety rating drops, they are not going to be allowed back in, they will then have to boost it back up, I mean as it stands theres no deterrent. So they will have to do a lot of work to enter these safety restricted rooms.

The essence of a booster is to get something quicker and easier, this process becomes more tedious than driving safely. So the bug fix becomes relevant.

So like I said this boosting attitude is only useful for achieving a trophy. Pointless for us racers to worry about.

 

[jonyvf]

Guys enjoy the game
Forget the boosting attitude just play for fun

 

[zr1chris]

It sounds like this boosting thing is being blown way out of proportion. People are acting like it's something running rampant through the online lobbies. I just don't see it. Definitely not going to benefit the safety rating from what I can see.

 

[Outspacer]

I disagree we were talking about manipulating the scoring system.

Which totally relates to room restrictions which was the whole point of my original post. I’ll try again.

This bug allows “boosters” to enter any room. Now we know its a matter of numbers how safety rating is classified, and safety rating is used to put first corner crashers with each other and safe with each other.

So lets say I can create a room of a safety rating of C and some “boosters” find their way in they will soon be involved in something or other. And their safety rating drops, they are not going to be allowed back in, they will then have to boost it back up, I mean as it stands theres no deterrent. So they will have to do a lot of work to enter these safety restricted rooms.

The essence of a booster is to get something quicker and easier, this process becomes more tedious than driving safely. So the bug fix becomes relevant.

So like I said this boosting attitude is only useful for achieving a trophy. Pointless for us racers to worry about.

Seriously? No. The bugfix isn't being done to keep boosters out, and, as you say, it won't anyway. They will keep getting in after a quick boost, because they'll only drop a little below whatever limit. If anything, it makes the booster problem worse, in two ways. First, boosters will be keener to get into where they aren't allowed, so more boosting. Second, as an honest racer, seeing a limit on a room gives a false sense of security.

Basically, the bugfix will do nothing to prevent boosting. It's not even trying to.

May I remind you that our conversation started with my post, which was as much about what I see as issues in the way the scoring is worked out as gaming it...

It's certainly a flawed system, and so was GTS's. They all are and always will be.

In both, the safety rating can be gamed - by precisely those who you probably wouldn't want to race against! It made a small amount of difference in GTS beta, but only because people weren't able to set up lobbies to game it even further.

Skill rating in GTS beta was based on qualifying and finish position. It didn't matter what skill levels you were up against. Terrible idea. Now SMS come along with what at heart looks like a much better system, scoring relative to the skill levels you're racing against, but apparently they ruin it with massive penalties for ending a race early (for whatever reason, be it quitting or running out of fuel). Has anyone worked out what the penalty is, compared to simply coming last?

The Amateur .. Veteran part just seems irrelevant, since it only ever goes up it means little anyway. So I don't really care that it can be gamed.

I would much rather have a discussion about possible fixes to the scoring systems than argue over tangents.

 

[rono_thomas]

Seriously? No. The bugfix isn't being done to keep boosters out, and, as you say, it won't anyway. They will keep getting in after a quick boost, because they'll only drop a little below whatever limit. If anything, it makes the booster problem worse, in two ways. First, boosters will be keener to get into where they aren't allowed, so more boosting. Second, as an honest racer, seeing a limit on a room gives a false sense of security.

Basically, the bugfix will do nothing to prevent boosting. It's not even trying to.

May I remind you that our conversation started with my post, which was as much about what I see as issues in the way the scoring is worked out as gaming it...



I would much rather have a discussion about possible fixes to the scoring systems than argue over tangents.

Your original post joined the conversation during a discussion of manipulating the scoring, gaming it or boosting it, it contains two references to gaming the license. My bad if you were not participating in the current conversation but the tangent has been introduced by you, if you want to move it onto scoring flaws.

Ive not claimed the bug fix is to directly deal with gaming anything, but it will no doubt have an effect, and I would disagree, in the format we were disscussing right before your post that a 1 lap race plus loading times would not result in a quick boost as you put it.

Have you experienced boosters first hand then?


Edit: Just checked your trophy list and nope you’ve not completed your first online race.

Edit 2: In fact no online trophies completed.

 

[Outspacer]

Your original post joined the conversation during a discussion of manipulating the scoring, gaming it or boosting it, it contains two references to gaming the license. My bad if you were not participating in the current conversation but the tangent has been introduced by you, if you want to move it onto scoring flaws.

Ive not claimed the bug fix is to directly deal with gaming anything, but it will no doubt have an effect, and I would disagree, in the format we were disscussing right before your post that a 1 lap race plus loading times would not result in a quick boost as you put it.

I deliberately chose not to reply to anyone at that time, because I didn't want to continue on the tangent of scolding TT92.

In a way I was trying to get the conversation back to earlier points - which certainly did include the scoring system, particularly the penalty for quitting a race.

You brought in the imminent bugfix as "something coming", as a reply to me saying:

We can only comment on what it is now, give our thoughts on how it might be improved (as I did here) and highlight the worst aspects. Maybe patches will improve it, big maybe. But not for while... bugfixes come first!

Perhaps some miscommunication, but by 'it' I meant the scoring system. I thought that was clear, I mean, what else can they change?! Ways to game it are secondary. I even linked to my earlier post that was nothing to do with gaming the system at all, just about whether it was a fair system.

Have you experienced boosters first hand then?


Edit: Just checked your trophy list and nope you’ve not completed your first online race.

Edit 2: In fact no online trophies completed.

LOL. I'm not going online - in this game - until it's a bit more sorted out. That does not make any points I make automatically invalid. TBH, trying to make out that it does only makes you look foolish. Play the ball.

 

[rono_thomas]

particularly the penalty for quitting a race.

This should be the case for quitting a race to encourage racers to finish a race and yes you lose more points than finishing last. If your referring to points lost because of lobby disconnects and also having to quit because of lobby explosions then the game would have to be able to tell the difference between that and someone just turning their router off to avoid point deductions it can’t. So no the points shouldn’t be changed or made fairer they are. However the online environment needs to be made more stable to eliminate this happening. This has already been discussed

LOL. I'm not going online - in this game - until it's a bit more sorted out. That does not make any points I make automatically invalid. TBH, trying to make out that it does only makes you look foolish. Play the ball.

They dont make them invalid. They make you misinformed. Which is why I mentioned it, your assuming that these reports of unfair point deductions are valid. You yourself say your an honnest driver, I have no doubt if you experienced it yourself you would understand these issues but also realise that they are easy to avoid. In my opinion having a need to win at all costs is whats behind most avoidable contacts.

Most sim racers on console will try overtakes in the most silliest of places, they’ve never had to think otherwise. I find myself now planning my overtakes to avoid a less experienced player hitting me.

As you progress through the ranks you realise like ranked players can handle the close racing, whilst your rated U1500 it is to be avoided.

So whats broken? Not much not being able to keep lower safety rating out of your room - a fix is coming.

What’s unfair, for me only getting points for disconnects is this a license issue no, as explained above.

Try it for yourself, dont be miss informed.

 

[Outspacer]

This should be the case for quitting a race to encourage racers to finish a race and yes you lose more points than finishing last. If your referring to points lost because of lobby disconnects and also having to quit because of lobby explosions then the game would have to be able to tell the difference between that and someone just turning their router off to avoid point deductions it can’t. So no the points shouldn’t be changed or made fairer they are. However the online environment needs to be made more stable to eliminate this happening. This has already been discussed

I respect your opinion, but you already know that I disagree. As I posted before, I think there are fairer ways to do it, which would still make quitting out a bad choice for anyone with a chance of not being last. I mean, really, if someone is half a lap down with no hope of taking a place it makes zero difference if they quit out or not - as long as remaining players get the points for having beaten the quitter, and the quitter takes the points hit for being last. At that point they are playing no part in the race anyway. Anyone further up - say, someone who started second and lost some places - would still stand to lose a lot from quitting. The latter are the cases that really matter IMO, because they are still playing an active part in the race.

I agree genuine disconnects can't be told apart from pulling the plug. Lobby explosions (?) might be more detectable. Retiring to pits because of running out of fuel certainly is detectable though - do cases like that incur the penalty?

They dont make them invalid. They make you misinformed. Which is why I mentioned it, your assuming that these reports of unfair point deductions are valid. You yourself say your an honnest driver, I have no doubt if you experienced it yourself you would understand these issues but also realise that they are easy to avoid. In my opinion having a need to win at all costs is whats behind most avoidable contacts.

Most sim racers on console will try overtakes in the most silliest of places, they’ve never had to think otherwise. I find myself now planning my overtakes to avoid a less experienced player hitting me.

As you progress through the ranks you realise like ranked players can handle the close racing, whilst your rated U1500 it is to be avoided.

So whats broken? Not much not being able to keep lower safety rating out of your room - a fix is coming.

What’s unfair, for me only getting points for disconnects is this a license issue no, as explained above.

Try it for yourself, dont be miss informed.

Oh please. I played GTS beta just about every day - I know what racers are like online!!! Eventually I managed to get both my ratings up to the highest level (S, S). Still there would usually be some dirty racers in the lobby, who somehow manged to keep an 'A' safety rating. Of course, there was only a limited number of people playing the beta, so it was possible to keep track of who was dirty by name. If one of them was behind me and close enough, I'd even know which corner they were most likely to try a dirty move on, and of course I'd drive to avoid it! Not so easy when you don't know who's who.

Anyway, no, I'm not misinformed or assuming things either. We know what the safety rating takes into account, and it's broadly similar to what GTS did. However, GTS did have a tweak to make going off track have less of an impact on your rating - which was good IMO, but even better would be seeing if time was gained. I'm not assuming anything we don't know when discussing the system in PCars2.

As for working out what's a good system, that takes some thought regardless of whether one is there or not. For PD and SMS, it's their first try at doing ratings... tweaks will be made as time goes on. Thinking about how these things might work takes more than simply considering the cases any of us come across as individuals.

 

[Markeeez18]

Until the game can determine if someone simply pulls out their network cable, the devs have to penalise all types of disconnect equally.

It may not seem fair but the alternative is to throw out the license system altogether which would be worse.

Would people really go to that length to disconnect from a game? Surely that would take so much longer.

Getting disconnected does not reflect my skill level though, If I win 5 races in a row, then get disconnected on my 6th, all the points i made up is gone, same happens again, and again, then I should be on a skill level of 1700 yet I'm stuck at 1495... yes I agree it should penalise people who quit races, but not as harsh as it is now, plus they shouldn't penalise disconnects, only quitters.

 

[rono_thomas]

someone is half a lap down with no hope of taking a place it makes zero difference if they quit out or not

Yes it does, a quiter should not be given the same amount of points as somebody who perseveres at being last and finishes the race, that is fair.

quitter takes the points hit for being last

No as above a quitter should take less points than what they would have done for finishing last.

The latter are the cases that really matter IMO, because they are still playing an active part in the race.

Then following my logic these should be penalised more than a quitter quitting from a last position. The game may do this I dont know, but from what Ive seen races are finishing with as many racers that started, or near as much. This is a good thing, and its because of its harshness that this is happening.

I think there are fairer ways to do it,

You have this notion that things are unfair, your wrong. What your arguing for is an easier game. The parameters are to severe. Everybody gets treated equally there is no unfairness.

do cases like that incur the penalty?

Yes but not the same this again is more preferable to quiting, not as much as finishing last.

Oh please. I played GTS beta just about every day - I know what racers are like online!!! Eventually I managed to get both my ratings up to the highest level (S, S). Still there would usually be some dirty racers in the lobby, who somehow manged to keep an 'A' safety rating. Of course, there was only a limited number of people playing the beta, so it was possible to keep track of who was dirty by name. If one of them was behind me and close enough, I'd even know which corner they were most likely to try a dirty move on, and of course I'd drive to avoid it! Not so easy when you don't know who's who.

This is where you need to experience it for yourself. Your experience with GTS is not transferable, what your describing in GTS beta I am not seeing in PCars2, I cant comment on GTS I have not experienced it maybe someone who has can compare them? My impression is PCars2 is harsher, which is a good thing.

but even better would be seeing if time was gained. I'm not assuming anything we don't know when discussing the system in PCars2.

This is modelled in PCars2, surely you have experienced this in your offline play?

Would people really go to that length to disconnect from a game? Surely that would take so much longer.

Getting disconnected does not reflect my skill level though, If I win 5 races in a row, then get disconnected on my 6th, all the points i made up is gone, same happens again, and again, then I should be on a skill level of 1700 yet I'm stuck at 1495... yes I agree it should penalise people who quit races, but not as harsh as it is now, plus they shouldn't penalise disconnects, only quitters.

@Markeeez18 until the game can work it out can you think of a fairer way?

And yes they would the boosting conversation proves that folk think in these ways.

 

[LPlates]

Would people really go to that length to disconnect from a game? Surely that would take so much longer.

Getting disconnected does not reflect my skill level though, If I win 5 races in a row, then get disconnected on my 6th, all the points i made up is gone, same happens again, and again, then I should be on a skill level of 1700 yet I'm stuck at 1495... yes I agree it should penalise people who quit races, but not as harsh as it is now, plus they shouldn't penalise disconnects, only quitters.

I don't disagree with you that its too harsh, it clearly is but if they took punishing disconnects out then anyone who stood to lose points by driving badly or losing a race would simply be able to yank their cable and claim "disconnected". Thereby never losing points again.

Sad but true. This happens in a lot of online games. Personally I have more pride that to do this and I take the loss fairly. Hell I even lifted to let an ai car pass me today as I felt I overtook unfairly. Immersion just isn't for everyone.

 

[rono_thomas]

I don't disagree with you that its too harsh, it clearly is but if they took punishing disconnects out then anyone who stood to lose points by driving badly or losing a race would simply be able to yank their cable and claim "disconnected". Thereby never losing points again.

Sad but true. This happens in a lot of online games. Personally I have more pride that to do this and I take the loss fairly. Hell I even lifted to let an ai car pass me today as I felt I overtook unfairly. Immersion just isn't for everyone.

Agreed.

Its also on online stability issue not a license problem.

 

[Animera]

They could reduce the penalty to 10 points and it would still work to deter people from disconnecting purposely.
The current penalty is way too harsh.

 

[Outspacer]

Yes it does, a quiter should not be given the same amount of points as somebody who perseveres at being last and finishes the race, that is fair.

No as above a quitter should take less points than what they would have done for finishing last.

As I understand it, points are lost for coming last, not gained.

Then following my logic these should be penalised more than a quitter quitting from a last position. The game may do this I dont know, but from what Ive seen races are finishing with as many racers that started, or near as much. This is a good thing, and its because of its harshness that this is happening.

Well under my logic they would effectively lose much more than someone quitting from last. I don't know, but possibly at the moment the penalty doesn't take into account the position someone quits from.

You have this notion that things are unfair, your wrong. What your arguing for is an easier game. The parameters are to severe. Everybody gets treated equally there is no unfairness.

Not at all. I'm saying step back and view the bigger picture. The outcome of a single race is largely irrelevant. I mean, the real purpose in the end is for players to have safety and skill ratings that at least approximate a true record of their driving - that would be 'fair'. So it's more about how each single race contributes to that. Balancing the scoring correctly is not an easy problem to solve; I really don't think you understand quite how hard it is. Heavy hits on the skill score might seem like a nice idea, but make it too strong and then the score can just end up showing how many quits/disconnects someone's had.

Apart from the penalties, I think the ideas behind the skill rating are really good. So to me, it's a shame that it's voided by the need to show that "something be done" about quitters. The system simply doesn't need it; it would be fine without it.

You know I'm not posting about this because of being annoyed at getting a penalty myself, at least

This is where you need to experience it for yourself. Your experience with GTS is not transferable, what your describing in GTS beta I am not seeing in PCars2, I cant comment on GTS I have not experienced it maybe someone who has can compare them? My impression is PCars2 is harsher, which is a good thing.

That experience is transferable regarding people's behaviour, and also about safety rating systems in general. Those things operate similarly in both. The driver/skill rating is completely different, but I understand it pretty well and will ask if I'm not sure about anything.

Regardless, if I've said anything that's factually incorrect, I'm sure you'd point it out!

This is modelled in PCars2, surely you have experienced this in your offline play?

Back there, I was talking about GTS. If that is done better in Pcars2 then that's great.

 

[rono_thomas]

As I understand it, points are lost for coming last, not gained.



Well under my logic they would effectively lose much more than someone quitting from last. I don't know, but possibly at the moment the penalty doesn't take into account the position someone quits from.



Not at all. I'm saying step back and view the bigger picture. The outcome of a single race is largely irrelevant. I mean, the real purpose in the end is for players to have safety and skill ratings that at least approximate a true record of their driving - that would be 'fair'. So it's more about how each single race contributes to that. Balancing the scoring correctly is not an easy problem to solve; I really don't think you understand quite how hard it is. Heavy hits on the skill score might seem like a nice idea, but make it too strong and then the score can just end up showing how many quits/disconnects someone's had.

Apart from the penalties, I think the ideas behind the skill rating are really good. So to me, it's a shame that it's voided by the need to show that "something be done" about quitters. The system simply doesn't need it; it would be fine without it.

You know I'm not posting about this because of being annoyed at getting a penalty myself, at least



That experience is transferable regarding people's behaviour, and also about safety rating systems in general. Those things operate similarly in both. The driver/skill rating is completely different, but I understand it pretty well and will ask if I'm not sure about anything.

Regardless, if I've said anything that's factually incorrect, I'm sure you'd point it out!



Back there, I was talking about GTS. If that is done better in Pcars2 then that's great.

Ok, disregarding things that are now irrelvant and for now keeping it simple:

Scoring More to scoring the least.
1st-last-quit/disconnect.

Last has to score more than those who refuse to quit and will run the full race. Therefore there has to be a distinction otherwise its not fair on the few/many who may do this. Do you agree?

This leaves us with did they quit or lose conundrum. They cant be separated. A disconnection is an online stability issue not a License issue. For me I get around this by hosting the lobbies, I’ve neither had anyone else or me disconnect while I do.

As with the weighting. Im happy that it can take between 2 or 3 races to get the same rating back for quitting seems ok when if you had just stayed in the room you wouldn’t have done so bad.

Just for some background:

Ive been stung by the disconnect 4 times. From various positions its never been more than 30 but it has been less to around 20. These reports of 50 seem like theres more going on before the disconnect. For now thats an assumption of mine.

 

[TT92]

Me again :-) Sorry I have been busy "boosting" and fitting a new SSD to my PS4 to try and overcome the dreadful slow load times.

Here is some more info for everyone. I am now level B 1386 and have my PS4 Trophy for it so I can now start to race again and have no fear of unwarranted contact anymore ;-)

So to get there it took me 49 races, 44 completed (5 disconnects = approx -minus 250 points) and it was 6 races (average 5 lappers) to go from C to B just driving around at the back of the pack. BTW the best result in doing that I had was ending up 3rd from 16 starters because they all crashed(or quit) and finishing mid field I usually got between 2-3 points so my skill level stayed about the same.

So far I have worked out the number of races completed to advance your license grade (see above). I have worked out the safety rating (more or less) and now have a fairly good idea on the skill rating scoring.

So based on my personal experience in average online lobbies (and gee I'm sick of GT3 at Monza) ;-) I have found the following:
Note: all these numbers are approximates and did vary a lot.
A disconnect = 45-50 points
A win = 7-8 points
A place 2-3 points
Top 5 usually broke even
Last (5th-6th) -2 to -5 points
The game (appears to me anyway) does *NOT* score you on the number of starters BUT only the number of finishers. So I get severely punished for a network disconnect yet win a 20 lap race at Mt. Fuji, in the rain, where 16 started and I am the only finisher and I got 1 lousy point.

So at this point in time I have nothing but complete contempt for this system and think it is very unfair.

OK here is how people are currently cheating the system and yes, I am getting very sick of it being used on me. During a race that I am winning, second place (usually ranked E-A) will dive bomb me into a corner and tap my rear quarter panel causing me to spin into the weeds, I end up 3rd-4th and with a severe contact infringement and he gets the win and only a very minor safety infraction.

The next one is rolling starts and the formation lap. These are great (not!). The leader will accelerate hard and then slow down rapidly so the effect is a concertina effect on the field. If I brake hard to avoid overtaking the person in front and then get rammed from behind I get a 5 second time penalty and a safety infringement and if I swerve and accidently put a nose in front of the person in front I then get a drive through penalty.

There are many, many more ways to manipulate this system and these are just a few of the more common ones.

I have always used the theory of "slow in, fast out" BUT apparently online is all about "Kamikaze in and worry about if you get out afterwards" and look out if you are in their target area!

I hope this helps.

PS I have been asked how I would improve the online system. Two ways to implement immediately;

1) Be able to search on safety rating (will improve you chances of the system working properly)
2) Be able to specify input device e.g wheel only lobbies. It will be a way to filter young bedroom warriors, trophy hunting on hand controllers ;-)

 

[Outspacer]

Ok, disregarding things that are now irrelvant and for now keeping it simple:

Scoring More to scoring the least.
1st-last-quit/disconnect.

Last has to score more than those who refuse to quit and will run the full race. Therefore there has to be a distinction otherwise its not fair on the few/many who may do this. Do you agree?

This leaves us with did they quit or lose conundrum. They cant be separated. A disconnection is an online stability issue not a License issue. For me I get around this by hosting the lobbies, I’ve neither had anyone else or me disconnect while I do.

As with the weighting. Im happy that it can take between 2 or 3 races to get the same rating back for quitting seems ok when if you had just stayed in the room you wouldn’t have done so bad.

Just for some background:

Ive been stung by the disconnect 4 times. From various positions its never been more than 30 but it has been less to around 20. These reports of 50 seem like theres more going on before the disconnect. For now thats an assumption of mine.

We've been told that the skill score changes at the end of a race is based on something like ELO that is used for chess rating. I don't know quite how that is applied to the multiple players in a race, but the basic idea is that winners take points off losers, at a rate proportional to how likely they would've been to win (based on their previous skill rating). So if you had, say, the 4th highest skill level in the race and came 4th at the end, your score might not change much at all.

In my scheme, I wouldn't change that, but a quitter simply places themselves dead last. Unless they already had the lowest rating, they will still lose points. Their lost points can be calculated as they leave. The other key change is that they are still counted in that position at the end of the race, so other players gain points from beating the quitter. That is vital to keeping a difference between quitting and staying.

So, given that scheme, why exactly do you think it would not be fair if quitters don't get an extra penalty?

 

[rono_thomas]

We've been told that the skill score changes at the end of a race is based on something like ELO that is used for chess rating. I don't know quite how that is applied to the multiple players in a race, but the basic idea is that winners take points off losers, at a rate proportional to how likely they would've been to win (based on their previous skill rating). So if you had, say, the 4th highest skill level in the race and came 4th at the end, your score might not change much at all.

In my scheme, I wouldn't change that, but a quitter simply places themselves dead last. Unless they already had the lowest rating, they will still lose points. Their lost points can be calculated as they leave. The other key change is that they are still counted in that position at the end of the race, so other players gain points from beating the quitter. That is vital to keeping a difference between quitting and staying.

So, given that scheme, why exactly do you think it would not be fair if quitters don't get an extra penalty?

Source for the elo I missed something.
Don’t worry found it. Ive realised something which I will post in the morning to avoid double post.

Note: all these numbers are approximates and did vary a lot.
A disconnect = 45-50 points
A win = 7-8 points
A place 2-3 points
Top 5 usually broke even
Last (5th-6th) -2 to -5 points

Your not factoring all the variables the least I’ve had for a disconnect is 20 the most 30. For my one retirement I lost 1 point when I win i score more than 15 all the time.

Those scores dont represent me.

 

[Pubs16]

Me again :-) Sorry I have been busy "boosting" and fitting a new SSD to my PS4 to try and overcome the dreadful slow load times.

Here is some more info for everyone. I am now level B 1386 and have my PS4 Trophy for it so I can now start to race again and have no fear of unwarranted contact anymore ;-)

So to get there it took me 49 races, 44 completed (5 disconnects = approx -minus 250 points) and it was 6 races (average 5 lappers) to go from C to B just driving around at the back of the pack. BTW the best result in doing that I had was ending up 3rd from 16 starters because they all crashed(or quit) and finishing mid field I usually got between 2-3 points so my skill level stayed about the same.

So far I have worked out the number of races completed to advance your license grade (see above). I have worked out the safety rating (more or less) and now have a fairly good idea on the skill rating scoring.

So what colour is your licence now?
Based on your calculations from god knows where you got it from 1 more race to get to 50 you should move to a yellow licence?

So based on my personal experience in average online lobbies (and gee I'm sick of GT3 at Monza) ;-) I have found the following:
Note: all these numbers are approximates and did vary a lot.
A disconnect = 45-50 points
A win = 7-8 points
A place 2-3 points
Top 5 usually broke even
Last (5th-6th) -2 to -5 points
The game (appears to me anyway) does *NOT* score you on the number of starters BUT only the number of finishers. So I get severely punished for a network disconnect yet win a 20 lap race at Mt. Fuji, in the rain, where 16 started and I am the only finisher and I got 1 lousy point.

Yup exactly that, your personal experience. Those points can vary A LOT more than you say, so many factors contribute to them.

It has been confirmed by SMS that the game does in fact score you on how many starters, quitters and disconnects still count as players beaten.

For you being the only finisher and gaining 1 point, I would suggest that everyone you “beat” would’ve been a lot lower score than you, because in fact beating up on lower ranks and skills can make you lose points.

So at this point in time I have nothing but complete contempt for this system and think it is very unfair.

OK here is how people are currently cheating the system and yes, I am getting very sick of it being used on me. During a race that I am winning, second place (usually ranked E-A) will dive bomb me into a corner and tap my rear quarter panel causing me to spin into the weeds, I end up 3rd-4th and with a severe contact infringement and he gets the win and only a very minor safety infraction.

The next one is rolling starts and the formation lap. These are great (not!). The leader will accelerate hard and then slow down rapidly so the effect is a concertina effect on the field. If I brake hard to avoid overtaking the person in front and then get rammed from behind I get a 5 second time penalty and a safety infringement and if I swerve and accidently put a nose in front of the person in front I then get a drive through penalty.

There are many, many more ways to manipulate this system and these are just a few of the more common ones.

Can you state how much safety rating you lost? Maybe you’re was minor too and I fact he didn’t get any gain at all from winning by contact.

Rolling starts like that is not a licence issue but a game bug moreso, with that fixed obviously we won’t cop penalties before manual control.

I have always used the theory of "slow in, fast out" BUT apparently online is all about "Kamikaze in and worry about if you get out afterwards" and look out if you are in their target area!

I hope this helps.

PS I have been asked how I would improve the online system. Two ways to implement immediately;

1) Be able to search on safety rating (will improve you chances of the system working properly)
2) Be able to specify input device e.g wheel only lobbies. It will be a way to filter young bedroom warriors, trophy hunting on hand controllers ;-)

I haven’t experienced “kamikaze online” like you suggest it is, maybe you should try choosing lobbies of a better grade? .

So your improvements actually have no points to address what you’re unfactually complaining about?

 

[rono_thomas]

Last one from me tonight and sorry for double post. Thanks for saving me pubs

I get a 5 second time penalty and a safety infringement and if I swerve and accidently put a nose in front of the person in front I then get a drive through penalty.

Your getting these penalties because your accumulating them, I’ve never had a drive through or 5 second penalty and Im on C rating after 33 races 4 of which were disconnects.

My rating is C1456. Go figure. By my calculations I’ll reach B beforr you without rinsing the game. So whats that telling me?

Its telling me what type of driver you are.


And so when I set a room of UFEDCBA 1500 you wont get in

 

[Corsa]

I keep a notepad next to my rig with a list of racers that Iv ran into problems with. Anytime I see them in my hosted lobbies I boot them.

Been doing this for years.
Ran out of paper.

Edit:
Just got the B safety rating.
Some of you guys are getting it very quickly.
I just finished my 73rd race, drove very clean the entire time with the usual rammers setting you back here and there.
Pretty sure you were running with us tonight @Outspacer TC/ Imola, Brands Hatch.
If you were, I appreciate your clean drive.

 

[Outspacer]

Pretty sure you were running with us tonight @Outspacer TC/ Imola, Brands Hatch.
If you were, I appreciate your clean drive.

Ah, so was that you I was chasing rounds Brands but never quite catching? Thanks, and likewise My TC was set too high then, but I got it sorted for the next race, and got the "Results are in, you're clean!" trophy

 

[TT92]

First up rono_thomas you don't read my posts very well nor do you understand what the game is actually doing.

Your getting these penalties because your accumulating them, I’ve never had a drive through or 5 second penalty and Im on C rating after 33 races 4 of which were disconnects.

Sighhhhhh................. disconnects have nothing to do with safety ranks or regs/penalties. Also it's you're not "your".

My rating is C1456. Go figure. By my calculations I’ll reach B beforr you without rinsing the game. So whats that telling me?

It's telling me YOU CAN"T READ! I am already at B. See my post that you want to challenge me on!

Its telling me what type of driver you are.

Yes an unlucky one who is suffering by trying to drive cleanly in rooms full of people that don't care or who are deliberately manipulating the rules.

And so when I set a room of UFEDCBA 1500 you wont get in

You are not able to set a room to a higher level than your ranking is. Read the rules. BTW you only set the lowest level so everyone above that can get in.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you poor level of comprehension is due to a late night racing and the fact you just want to try and pick a fight with me ;-)