Congress 2010 Thread

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The attack ads have begun.

Here is Trey Grayson's latest ad:


Oh noes!!! He opposes the Patriot Act! And so does anyone that supports the US Constitution and recognizes the rights granted to our citizens in the first 10 Amendments.

You can see the rest of his ads here:
http://www.treygrayson.com/media-gallery/videos/

You can see where he has begun a list of attack ads and even set up a Web site devoted solely to attacking Rand Paul.

Rand Paul has released this ad in response:


The rest of his ads are here. There is one that can be seen as an attack ad, but most of his have been directed at pointing out his own stance on the issues.
http://www.randpaul2010.com/video-gallery/

But I have to say that Rand Paul has gotten a pretty good semi-endorsement here:





I would love to be able to confront Trey Grayson in person and challenge him on some issues but it is a bit tough when he doesn't even list where his campaign stops are going to be. I wonder if he is afraid of that very scenario.
 
Its the typical Conservative vs conservative issue that has been playing out extensively since 2006. These are the kid of attacks that they're going to run regardless of whether he is right or left, and hell, they'd probably even do it on themselves. These are the things that rile up the typically less-educated, "Us versus Them," American Exceptionalist folks that make up a surprisingly significant portion of the electorate.

But, when you apparently have a 10% lead on the next-best Republican, my guess is that you're going to start digging deep before the Primary.



The big deal around here is still the Governor's race, but after the Healthcare Bill fallout, I guess a bunch of folks want Burt Stupak's head on a plate. No idea whats going on in my local race though, but I sure as hell don't want my State Rep to take over my District seat.
 
I wish I was getting the money that Greyson is paying whomever to make those awful commercials. I could do something like that in a night. They look so amateur.

Rand's production quality is so much better.
 
I wish I was getting the money that Greyson is paying whomever to make those awful commercials. I could do something like that in a night. They look so amateur.

Rand's production quality is so much better.
Western Kentucky University, in his hometown of Bowling Green, is a noted journalism school. It is kind of cool to see people I went to school with being news anchors and PR reps now. But due to that I would guess that he has a few volunteers professionally trained in video production with student/teacher discounts on editing software.
 
Something strange is going on in Kentucky. Trey Grayson hasn't updated his site in two weeks, since Dick Cheney officially endorsed him and rumors are that he has pulled all his TV ads.

There are two takes on this:

First, Grayson is done:
http://www.micadaily.blogspot.com/2010/04/who-beat-down-trey-grayson.html
Thursday, April 8, 2010
Who "beat down" Trey Grayson?
Trey Grayson hasn't updated his campaign site in more than two weeks and he has pulled his television ads off the air. One of these actions alone would bring up questions about Rand Paul's impact on Kentucky's U.S. Senate race. But both of them combined at the same time have me wondering who is going to get the blame for defeating Trey Grayson.

It could just be that Rand Paul's message, personal popularity, and the Tea Party movement all hit at the same time and an establishment candidate who never seemed too comfortable talking to regular people about the issues never really had a chance. If that's it, then this is a short conversation except for where we go from here and maybe why did Mitch McConnell wait so long to start backing away from Trey?

I guess having a primary race has been good for Rand, who has shown us that he can stand up to an avalanche of attacks. So conservatives probably shouldn't complain, though it would be nice if Rand had been able to save some of that $2 million to defend himself against the Democrat attacks that start May 19.

I just couldn't help noticing that Trey's last post on his site is about Dick Cheney's endorsement. This was obviously a bad move and may have been what shut him down. A funny thing I heard last night at the Tea Party in Lawrenceburg was that Rand had a pretty easy time painting Trey as the establishment candidate and that it just got a lot easier when Trey started buying the paint by bringing VP Cheney in to campaign for him. Dumb move, Trey.

Maybe it wasn't that, though. Maybe it was Trey's icky false ads against Rand that made people not trust and turn away from Trey.

I think it was a combination of the insider stuff and the smear campaign against Rand that hurt Trey the most. Mostly the insider stuff, but both really.

Blogger Elendil's Journal provides what I think is the perfect example for what happened. He even believed the "kooky" stuff or whatever about Rand, but Trey lost him by being another big spender Republican.

"Up till now I have been undecided. I was leaning towards Grayson because I think Rand Paul is a lot more libertarian than his campaign has portrayed him. I am leery of Paul's views on foreign policy and some of the other kooky libertarian ideas he supports. But those issues won't matter if the country bankrupts itself. We are at the point were fiscal responsibility is job one in D.C. We need people who are serious about reducing the size and expenditures of our behemoth federal government before we become a banana republic."


"Someone who thinks pork is a good thing will never be serious about decreasing the size of government. For that reason, I am now leaning towards voting for Rand Paul. I won't be the only person Grayson loses over this issue. The bottom line is Grayson won't be able to make up any ground in the polls now that he has come out in favor of pork. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we have seen his high water mark. And to be honest, Grayson deserves the beat down he is going to get."


I'm not big on violence, but Trey threw the first punch and didn't seem to mind throwing a bunch of mud. I have to agree that he will deserve his May 18 beat down.

Something tells me that the Democrat who runs against Rand will run pretty much the same kind of campaign against him though. Yuck!!


Or, Grayson is planning a nuclear option just before the election:
http://www.bluegrassbulletin.com/20...ng-to-be-behind-whoever-wins-the-primary.html

McConnell: "We're Going To Be Behind Whoever Wins The Primary"

EDITORIAL:

As we approach the last five weeks of the republican primary race between Trey Grayson and Rand Paul an interesting dynamic has developed. Rand Paul seems to be everywhere on television, while Grayson has much less of a presence. For a guy who is down in the polls by double digits, it's Grayson's move that needs a look.

No one doubts that Mitch McConnell has provided support for Grayson. McConnell was blamed for elbowing Jim Bunning out of the race and soon thereafter began hosting fund raising events for Grayson among his Senate colleagues.

McConnell has recently commented on the race itself.

“I don’t have any current plans to endorse anybody in the race – but they’re both outsiders,” he said. “Neither one of them has been in Congress, and either one of them, I think, could make a plausible argument that they would be something different. There’s no incumbent in the race.” [NKy.com]

According to unofficial reports from those close to two campaigns, both have raised nearly identical sums of money with which to wage battle in the final days.

Paul has apparently made a significant media buy in most of the TV markets in the state. Some are commenting already on how much penetration he seems to be getting. The Grayson camp is saying that Paul has "spent it all", will be out of money by the last two weeks and that Grayson will then have the advantage, having saved his ammo until the final hours.

But can a candidate, already down by 10-15 points afford to let his opponent have a free run for three weeks and then seriously think he can take the lead away? To most political observers that can mean only one thing, the "Hiroshima" or "scorched earth" strategy.

If Grayson is planning to allow Paul to run three weeks of television without a tit for tat response, Grayson must be planning to drop a nuclear bomb in the last two weeks big enough to win the war.

Grayson so far has tried to plant seeds in the minds of voters that Paul is "kooky" and has "strange ideas". But Paul has responded that Grayson is lying, distorting the truth and that Grayson represents the same failed thinking which started the process of putting our country in the shape it is in today.

Rank and file republicans understand the message that Paul is sending out. The word "bailout" connected with AIG has become a buzzword for reckless government spending with a hint of government corruption. That message sticks.

Political insider republicans understand that despite the popularity of George W. Bush right after 9-11 (the one who put out a WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE poster on Osama Bin Laden) the guy who ended his term by starting the bailout ball rolling is in part to blame for the rise of Obama, and the condition we are in today.

Republicans know that the bailouts were started under George Bush, and in large part, that his failure in leadership translated over to John McCain and cost us the election. Republicans have since developed a serious mistrust of political insiders tied to big bankers and lobbyists regardless of party affiliation.

If Paul's message sticks, Grayson will be seen at worst as sharing his DNA with the same "neo-cons" who lobbied GW on behalf of AIG or at best being just another politician willing to lie and/or distort the truth in order to win an election.

If Grayson's message sticks, Paul will be seen as at best unpredictable and at worst far more liberal than your standard Bush/Cheney republican on social issues, but more conservative on fiscal issues.*

If Grayson is holding back on his money until the end and plans to drop a nuclear bomb, it better be a big one and it better be on target and it better cause surrender. Otherwise he might be seen as the guy who gave the democrats all the ammo they need in order to win the seat against a wounded, yet still battle worthy Rand Paul.

Might Grayson have placed all of his faith in McConnell to help him deliver a knock out blow, raise the money needed to drop the bomb and then shore up his image among the voters should he win? Maybe, but that would be a very dangerous strategy given McConnell's well known history. His ability to keep his distance just enough to avoid the blood splatters when he throws you under the bus is masterful and legendary.

Research reveals that Paul has purchased a ton of media all the way through the primary. Grayson could do better by using the button hole method of getting votes in some districts, like the 5th, and save his dough. He might even be wise to buy cable in some markets targeting his republican audience more precisely by staying on channels like Fox News and using direct mail to reach regular voters.

But in a year where the cry for "change" is ringing louder now than even 2008, though McConnell was right, both Grayson and Paul can make a plausible argument that they are something different, the question becomes whether Grayson can convince republican voters that he is different enough.

As one old political saying goes, "Politicians are like diapers, they both need changing regularly, and for the same reasons." Which diaper is Grayson? That's the question he needs to address.


Looks like either Rand has this one in hand or there will be a huge fight in a few weeks. What Grayson might not realize is that myself, and many other Paul supporters, have held off on further donations because we believe he has plenty to win the primary with. So if Grayson pulls a nuclear option and Rand Paul needs an emergency money bomb we can give him another half million with very little notice. Most of us have only given $50-$100. We have a long way to go before we hit our $2,400 cap.
 
Bye Bye, Trey Grayson.



Jim Bunning Endorses Rand Paul.
 
Rand Paul was interviewed on the local News/Talk radio station 840 WHAS yesterday morning. I managed to record it and upload it to You Tube.

It was an hour of radio time, but it was broken up due to news and commercial breaks, so it comes out to a total of about 35 minutes, and is split up over 4 parts.




 
Things just got a bit interesting in the Paul vs Grayson primary:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0510/McConnell_in_Kentucky.html?showall

Mitch McConnell endorsed Trey Grayson in Kentucky today, a fairly unusual move for the Minority Leader, and also a kind of doubling down: A Republican source tells me that James Dobson, who angrily switched candidates this week and endorsed Rand Paul, blames McConnell for allegedly misleading him on Paul's abortion credentials.
 
Also, Greyson is the one who's counting the votes. That's pretty scary.
 
Also, Greyson is the one who's counting the votes. That's pretty scary.
Yeah, Rand Paul asked him to step down on this race but Grayson just accused him of making a cheap attack. To further create issues, Kentucky has been switching over to electronic voting systems that look like large PDAs. So, even if there is reason to challenge the results as suspicious there are few physical ballots left to recount. If Grayson pulls some sort of shenanigans it will be hard to trace it.

Grayson has also begun counting absentee ballots already. I have an issue with that because he won't release any numbers publicly other than turnout estimates. He will have advance notice of which way the election is going and be able to adjust his campaign accordingly.
 
Dobson has done a volte face and has switched from Grayson to Paul. Undoubtedly, he will bring hordes of followers with him. Grayson will be crushed?
 
Dobson has done a volte face and has switched from Grayson to Paul. Undoubtedly, he will bring hordes of followers with him. Grayson will be crushed?
I think Dobson's switch will have less of an effect than the reason why. All along Paul has been calling Grayson out on his lies and now a third-party with a public face has been a direct witness to this in action. Anything Grayson claims about Paul will now be questioned by those who trust Dobson.

Of course, support from Focus on the Family will not help Rand Paul in the general election.
 
Congrats to Rand Paul for destroying Douche Grayson in the polls and becoming the Kentucky republican nominee for senator.
 
You could say it was a Randslide...

The grassroots Revolution turns a new leaf...

All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.


-Tolkien
 
Huge congratulations to Rand Paul last night. The margin of victory was larger than even the best polls predicted. 59% - 35% Rand's margin really started growing when in the last two weeks Grayson was dealt a one-two punch between James Dobson switching his endorsement and releasing a radio ad that Grayson had lied to him about Dr. Paul, and the fact that it was revealed that Grayson's office, which he claimed has cut spending 15% in his time there, was requesting budget increases every year but was forced to take cuts.

So, now it is on to November where Rand Paul will face Jack Conway. Conway won his nomination by less than 5,000 votes/1%. His supporters weren't that dedicated and he did poorly outside the urban areas. I also face my biggest issue: Jack Conway is personal friends with my father-in-law and had even asked him to be his campaign manager. Family gatherings may get a bit uncomfortable now.

To add to the pressure, my friend who is on Rand Paul's Economic Advisory Committee has been asking me to give Dr. Paul permission to use my medical background story and my personal belief that it is my responsibility, not the governments, during debates when health care comes up. If I didn't have the family situation I would be glad to, but its a bit trickier than that. I would like to be able to take my daughter to visit them without an awkward situation arising.

I'll see what my wife says. She has already told me that she, a lifetime Democrat in a political family, will vote for Rand Paul. But, what her father doesn't know won't kill him. If he knew it probably would kill him.


EDIT: Just adding this for fun.

randslide2.gif
 
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I also face my biggest issue: Jack Conway is personal friends with my father-in-law and had even asked him to be his campaign manager. Family gatherings may get a bit uncomfortable now.

To add to the pressure, my friend who is on Rand Paul's Economic Advisory Committee has been asking me to give Dr. Paul permission to use my medical background story and my personal belief that it is my responsibility, not the governments, during debates when health care comes up. If I didn't have the family situation I would be glad to, but its a bit trickier than that. I would like to be able to take my daughter to visit them without an awkward situation arising.

I'll see what my wife says. She has already told me that she, a lifetime Democrat in a political family, will vote for Rand Paul. But, what her father doesn't know won't kill him. If he knew it probably would kill him.

Foolkiller, I join you in the deep satisfaction that Rand Paul will likely take his seat in the US Senate.

The family issue you present is a tricky one. It might be tactful, yet still honorable, to avoid public involvement in a political campaign for the sake of family harmony and unity. What happens in the voting booth is always a private affair.

Respectfully,
Dotini
 
A couple of things here:

First, this quote from Dr. Paul's victory speech:

“We have come to take our government back from the special interests who think that the federal government is their own personal ATM … from the politicians who bring us over-sized fake checks emblazoned with their signature as if it was their money to give.”

And from 2008:

toddmitch.jpg


That seems loud and clear.




And now, one day after he won he is already being attacked in a way intended to paint him as racist, regarding an issue that he has never brought up himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20005474-503544.html

Rand Paul Under Fire for Comments on Race

Now that the Tea Party-backed Rand Paul has the GOP nomination for Kentucky's open Senate seat, the media and his Democratic opponent are pouncing on his extreme libertarian views -- particularly with respect to his position on racism in private businesses and whether he would have supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

In an interview on NPR yesterday, host Robert Siegel asked Paul, the son of libertarian hero and former presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), whether the Civil Rights Act went too far. Seigel noted that Paul has said in the past that the Americans with Disabilities Act was an overreach of the federal government.

"What I've always said is that I'm opposed to institutional racism, and I would've, had I've been alive at the time, I think, had the courage to march with Martin Luther King to overturn institutional racism, and I see no place in our society for institutional racism," Paul said.

However, he added:

"I think a lot of things could be handled locally. For example, I think that we should try to do everything we can to allow for people with disabilities and handicaps. You know, we do it in our office with wheelchair ramps and things like that. I think if you have a two-story office and you hire someone who's handicapped, it might be reasonable to let him have an office on the first floor rather than the government saying you have to have a $100,000 elevator. And I think when you get to the solutions like that, the more local the better, and the more common sense the decisions are, rather than having a federal government make those decisions."

Later on MSNBC's "Rachel Maddow Show" yesterday evening, Paul was pressed on the specific question of whether he thinks the government should prohibit private businesses from discriminating on the basis of race -- he refused to give a straight answer.

"Should we limit speech from people we find abhorrent?" Paul asked. "Should we limit racists from speaking? I don't want to be associated with those people, but I also don't want to limit their speech in any way, in the sense that we tolerate boorish and uncivilized behavior because that's one of the things that freedom requires... that we allow people to be boorish and uncivilized, but that doesn't mean we approve of it."

Rand Paul to Dems: Please Bring Obama to Kentucky
Paul: Tea Party Ready to "Flex Some Muscle"

Paul's views on the issue first came under scrutiny last month during an interview with the Louisville Courier-Journal.

"I like the Civil Rights Act in the sense that it ended discrimination in all public domains, and I'm all in favor of that," he said. "I don't like the idea of teling private business owners -- I abhor racism... I do believe in private ownership."

The Courier-Journal in an editorial said that Paul's remarks were "repulsive" and declared that it could not endorse either Republican in the Senate primary.

Paul's primary opponent, Kentucky Secretary of State Trey Grayson, attacked Paul's extreme views during the primary campaign, though that clearly did not deter enough voters from supporting Paul. Now that Paul is in a broader campaign, his Democratic opponent, Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway, is using the same strategy.

"These are not the views of mainstream Kentuckians," Conway said about Paul's beliefs in an interview with Talking Points Memo.

Notice, the headline refers to his comments on race, yet he never said a negative thing in regard to any race. He spoke in favor of private property rights, but that isn't the headline they want to portray. Already his opponents are attempting to make this campaign out to be about racism.

This is about to get very ugly.
 
Rand Paul shot himself in the foot, how ignorant do you have to be to say businesses should have the the right to refuse serving blacks?

NY Times
Asked by Ms. Maddow if a private business had the right to refuse to serve black people, Mr. Paul replied, “Yes.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/us/politics/21paul.html

I understand what he is getting it but that was just a really stupid thing to say and you'd have to be a fool to think that wouldn't come back to bite you in the backside. I know he's not in favour of repealing any acts that reverse the civil rights act, or at least that is what he said (I honestly don't know, only Paul himself does).

I don't agree with the statement though, I don't think any business in the US should have the right to refuse you service based solely on the colour of your skin. It's discrimination and our country went through a lot of hard times because of it.
 
I agree with him, but it's not the best timing. Though I guess if the interviewer brought it up, it's better than lying.
 
Rand Paul shot himself in the foot, how ignorant do you have to be to say businesses should have the the right to refuse serving blacks?



Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/us/politics/21paul.html

I understand what he is getting it but that was just a really stupid thing to say and you'd have to be a fool to think that wouldn't come back to bite you in the backside. I know he's not in favour of repealing any acts that reverse the civil rights act, or at least that is what he said (I honestly don't know, only Paul himself does).

I don't agree with the statement though, I don't think any business in the US should have the right to refuse you service based solely on the colour of your skin. It's discrimination and our country went through a lot of hard times because of it.

How long do you think a business which didn't serve black people would last? I'm not sure about the USA, but if someone were to do that in Canada, nobody would buy from them. (For example, I'm a huge Montreal Canadiens (NHL) fan, and there's not many black players in the NHL. Montreal's new hotshot rookie is black, and he's a HUGE fan favourite.)

Homosexuals, that's another story, but I don't think the "average joe" is racist anymore. A black joke here and there, but I don't think the average guy is that racist.



PS: Just remembered you are a detroit fan, and you probably knew all of that about PK Subban anyway.
 
This is about to get very ugly.

I'm not too sure of that. Progressives really appreciate having the Pauls around because they actually facilitate interesting, thoughtful discussion(s) of policy and the direction our country has taken in the past 50 years. Whether or not any of them agree, I tend to think that both appreciate the fact that they can have a discussion without resorting to outright nastiness.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing Dr. Paul on television more often, on the radio, and so on. But, I'd be more worried about what the GOP tosses his way than what the Democrats have to offer. Especially after he (most-likely) gets elected.
 
Rand Paul shot himself in the foot, how ignorant do you have to be to say businesses should have the the right to refuse serving blacks?



Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/us/politics/21paul.html

I understand what he is getting it but that was just a really stupid thing to say and you'd have to be a fool to think that wouldn't come back to bite you in the backside. I know he's not in favour of repealing any acts that reverse the civil rights act, or at least that is what he said (I honestly don't know, only Paul himself does).

I don't agree with the statement though, I don't think any business in the US should have the right to refuse you service based solely on the colour of your skin. It's discrimination and our country went through a lot of hard times because of it.

Oteil Burbridge said it best: Why would blacks or anyone of moral character want to give patronage to a cracker-ass klan bar? That doesn't make any sense. Yes, an owner has the right to not have anyone they don't want on their property.

Rand missed the gotcha! game and now the saboteurs are trying to shove this crap across the universe just like they tried to say Ron Paul is a racist because some random guy asked for a photograph who happened to be revealed as a white supremacist later on. It's nonsense. Good politics (for the collectivists), bad journalism.
 
How long do you think a business which didn't serve black people would last? I'm not sure about the USA, but if someone were to do that in Canada, nobody would buy from them. (For example, I'm a huge Montreal Canadiens (NHL) fan, and there's not many black players in the NHL. Montreal's new hotshot rookie is black, and he's a HUGE fan favourite.)

Homosexuals, that's another story, but I don't think the "average joe" is racist anymore. A black joke here and there, but I don't think the average guy is that racist.

PS: Just remembered you are a detroit fan, and you probably knew all of that about PK Subban anyway.

I'm sure Canada is different in the US, many areas of our country still think the Confederate States should exist and all their slave owning power. There are still a lot of people here that are extremely racist, and really I think to a degree everyone is a bit racist whether intentionally or not.

In some areas of the country, mainly in parts of the south, if a store refused to sell to blacks they would probably get more business. Same goes for a store not serving Hispanics in the south-west or a store here in Michigan not serving people from Ohio (that's a joke :lol: ). I don't think you would see a problem, and that's what worries me about that.

And yup I know all about Subban, it amazes me how many people I hear say that black shouldn't play hockey. I just shake my head.

Oteil Burbridge said it best: Why would blacks or anyone of moral character want to give patronage to a cracker-ass klan bar? That doesn't make any sense. Yes, an owner has the right to not have anyone they don't want on their property.

Rand missed the gotcha! game and now the saboteurs are trying to shove this crap across the universe just like they tried to say Ron Paul is a racist because some random guy asked for a photograph who happened to be revealed as a white supremacist later on. It's nonsense. Good politics (for the collectivists), bad journalism.

A black isn't going to go into a clan bar but say a McDonald's opened that served whites only. I would have a huge problem with that and I would expect legal action to be taken against the owner. I don't agree with segregation or saying that property owners should ever be allowed to do it.

I don't agree with granting property owners the right not to serve someone if the building is open to the public and I wouldn't vote for or support a candidate that thought that way. I just see so much wrong with that statement.
 
Rand Paul shot himself in the foot, how ignorant do you have to be to say businesses should have the the right to refuse serving blacks?
Ignorant, or honest? I know using the term honest when discussing politicians seems weird, but that is what you have here, true, unfiltered honesty.

I understand what he is getting it but that was just a really stupid thing to say and you'd have to be a fool to think that wouldn't come back to bite you in the backside.
Well, to be honest, he didn't bring it up. He never mentioned the Civil Rights Act without being asked about it first. His opponent did (with a lie - see below for details) and the media did, the timing being so close as to raise some suspicions. But when he was asked he gave an honest answer. His opponent knew he would and that is why he pounced with it the day after the primaries were over.

I'm not too sure of that. Progressives really appreciate having the Pauls around because they actually facilitate interesting, thoughtful discussion(s) of policy and the direction our country has taken in the past 50 years.
So, is that why this whole thing blew up when his opponent, Jack Conway, lied to Chris Matthews in an interview and said that Rand Paul wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act? Thoughtful discussion my ass. It is a direct and deceitful attack by the Democrats to paint him as a racist using an intellectually dishonest argument.

Today on local radio I heard them accuse him of arguing against the 14th Amendment. You know, the one that says that anyone born in the US is a citizen and may not have their rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness infringed upon. I'm not quite sure how a racist telling someone to stay off their property does that though.

Whether or not any of them agree, I tend to think that both appreciate the fact that they can have a discussion without resorting to outright nastiness.
With the exception of Jack Conway.

This is creating an issue for me. As I said before, Conway is a friend of my in-laws, but I will not hold back on calling him a liar if his name ever comes up in conversation. Now I think I know why my father-in-law turned down working on his campaign.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing Dr. Paul on television more often, on the radio, and so on. But, I'd be more worried about what the GOP tosses his way than what the Democrats have to offer. Especially after he (most-likely) gets elected.
Um, the Republicans are tossing him a unity rally tomorrow at noon at the Kentucky Republican Headquarters, hosted by Mitch McConnell.

A black isn't going to go into a clan bar but say a McDonald's opened that served whites only. I would have a huge problem with that and I would expect legal action to be taken against the owner. I don't agree with segregation or saying that property owners should ever be allowed to do it.
Turning that around:

The KKK have a peaceful march through town. They just march down Main Street complete in bed sheets and dunce caps while holding signs with some drivel about white men being God's blessed children. Afterward one of the Klansmen decides he wants a bottle of water and, still in dunce cap and bedsheets, walks into a convenient store owned by a black businessman. Should the black businessman have to serve him?

I don't agree with granting property owners the right not to serve someone if the building is open to the public and I wouldn't vote for or support a candidate that thought that way. I just see so much wrong with that statement.
Needless to say, we disagree on this on principle. It is a matter of how much value we each give property rights vs civil rights, and nothing to do with racism. This situation gives a great opportunity for a national discussion about this.

But that is where what is happening in this conversation is different from what is happening to Rand Paul. His opponent has lied about Dr. Paul's stance and some in the media and on blogs have called him a racist. His comments were not politically correct and for that reason alone an intellectual conversation cannot be had in the public eye. It is very similar to what happened to the president of Harvard a few years back when he asked if we should research any physiological reasons why men are more likely to enter science and math fields than women. He eventually had to resign.


The bigger question I find interesting here is: What does it say about those that disagree with Rand Paul who immediately accuse him of being racist and refuse to accept that there might be a discussion regarding the role of government in choosing which rights it enforces, and to what degree, at the cost of others.

Why can't that conversation be held on a public level? Is it just a degree of intellectual dishonesty on the part of those favoring civil rights over property rights? Or is it a fear by them that they don't want to know the ultimate answer in what the government's role should actually be?

Personally, I think it is intellectual dishonesty, because it is cheaper and faster to label a man a racist and let the media's influence on public opinion do the rest for you.

Since Jack Conway blatantly lied I am 100% positive that is the case with him.
 
Ignorant, or honest? I know using the term honest when discussing politicians seems weird, but that is what you have here, true, unfiltered honesty.

No he's ignorant. Making statements like that is just plain stupid. A better way to have addressed the question would have been "while I fully support the Civil Rights Act, I also support the rights of the property owner." Coming off with a simple "yes" was poorly played.

Turning that around:

The KKK have a peaceful march through town. They just march down Main Street complete in bed sheets and dunce caps while holding signs with some drivel about white men being God's blessed children. Afterward one of the Klansmen decides he wants a bottle of water and, still in dunce cap and bedsheets, walks into a convenient store owned by a black businessman. Should the black businessman have to serve him?

He's not refusing to serve him based on race though, he's refusing to serve him based on the klansmen being threatening, there is a difference. Even then I don't think you would see a black clerk refuse to serve a klansmen solely because the clerk probably wishes to not have his store torched and he himself lynched.

Say I, a middle class white kid, dressed in jeans and button up, went into a store and a black clerk refused to serve me solely on the fact I was white. That would discrimination and I would have every right to file a lawsuit against the store for that (I wouldn't for the record).

Needless to say, we disagree on this on principle. It is a matter of how much value we each give property rights vs civil rights, and nothing to do with racism. This situation gives a great opportunity for a national discussion about this.

I agree with property rights, however I believe civil right should trump that. You should be able to go into any public accessible building and be served no matter what colour your skin is. The United States is backwards enough as it is in a lot of things like this, we don't need any more fuel for some people's fire. This is where I disagree with Paul and if he was running in Michigan, he would have lost my support with that comment.
 
A black isn't going to go into a clan bar but say a McDonald's opened that served whites only. I would have a huge problem with that and I would expect legal action to be taken against the owner. I don't agree with segregation or saying that property owners should ever be allowed to do it.

I don't agree with granting property owners the right not to serve someone if the building is open to the public and I wouldn't vote for or support a candidate that thought that way. I just see so much wrong with that statement.

McDonalds would terminate that franchise before anyone else could do anything. Companies like that are open to the public, yes. That's their company policy. But there are places that are private and don't have to have whoever they don't want. The neighborhood pub is like that... if people don't like you or how you behave, you're not welcome there. There's a reason clubs have bouncers.

The difference in the 1960s is that there were actually laws forbidding black-white integration. Jim Crow laws. Now that was wrong, and was the reason why segregation was as bad as it was and as widespread as it was.
 
Hey! You stole my stolen joke!

As for Rand Paul's comments on the Civil Rights Act, I can't say I'm surprised. While his point may be that 'if private institutions chose to be racist, they run the risk of people not patronising them', he is sending out a very wrong message here. While he is quick to point out that he doesn't want to be associated with the type of people who would discriminate against others on the basis of race (obviously, he is a politician and is clearly not that monumentally stupid), he is basically saying that civilised society must tolerate such abhorrent views because that is the price of freedom, and hence we must all tacitly accept racism as part of our 'free' society. Good luck with that.
 
No he's ignorant. Making statements like that is just plain stupid. A better way to have addressed the question would have been "while I fully support the Civil Rights Act, I also support the rights of the property owner." Coming off with a simple "yes" was poorly played.
Speaking of ignorance, I take it you didn't see the nearly 15 minute interview with Rachel Maddow that never left this topic. It was not a simple yes to a single question. I was ready to accuse the NYT article you quoted of poor journalism, but I realize the error isn't theirs after reading it. You failed to completely read the article you quoted.

From the very next sentence after your quote:
“I’m not in favor of any discrimination of any form,” Mr. Paul continued. “I would never belong to any club that excluded anybody for race. We still do have private clubs in America that can discriminate based on race. But I think what’s important about this debate is not written into any specific ‘gotcha’ on this, but asking the question: what about freedom of speech? Should we limit speech from people we find abhorrent? Should we limit racists from speaking?”

“I don’t want to be associated with those people,” he said, “but I also don’t want to limit their speech in any way in the sense that we tolerate boorish and uncivilized behavior because that’s one of the things freedom requires is that we allow people to be boorish and uncivilized, but that doesn’t mean we approve of it.”
Two more paragraphs with his complete statement. Not a simple yes. And that came near the end of the interview in question. Maybe you should actually watch it before judging its contents? It is available in various places on line. Just a thought.

There is a lot to criticize Dr. Paul about in how that interview went, but his ignorance in how the politics would play out is not one of them.

What I find funny is you are acting as if he did something bad by not playing typical politics and being honest. Do you think it would be much more respectable if he just lied?

He's not refusing to serve him based on race though, he's refusing to serve him based on the klansmen being threatening, there is a difference.
Is there? Did the Klansmen say anything? Or did he just try to buy a bottle of water? Could a white man refuse to serve a Muslim man wearing all black robes and turban and looking angry for being threatening? It is enough to get you questioned on a plane.

Or is the black man refusing to serve the Klansman based on political discrimination, which is also illegal?

What if the Klansman were back in his khakis and polo, but the black man recognized his face?

I agree with property rights, however I believe civil right should trump that. You should be able to go into any public accessible building and be served no matter what colour your skin is.
My office is a production office with key card entry, clearly not publicly accessible. Can I use racial discrimination in my business practices? What about GE? Their appliances factory here in Louisville is surrounded by tall chain link fences and a security card is required just to step from the parking lot to the grass, and then another to actually enter the building.

This is where I disagree with Paul and if he was running in Michigan, he would have lost my support with that comment.
Based on your comments from other discussion in regard to how you feel about ideologically principled people, particularly those with a libertarian leaning mindset, I doubt he would have ever had your support to begin with.

And with his honesty, and the fact that I agree with him, he has made me feel much better about my vote on Tuesday. I have yet to meet a person I know that voted for him that say this has changed their opinion.


Hey! You stole my stolen joke!
:D

As for Rand Paul's comments on the Civil Rights Act, I can't say I'm surprised. While his point may be that 'if private institutions chose to be racist, they run the risk of people not patronising them', he is sending out a very wrong message here. While he is quick to point out that he doesn't want to be associated with the type of people who would discriminate against others on the basis of race (obviously, he is a politician and is clearly not that monumentally stupid), he is basically saying that civilised society must tolerate such abhorrent views because that is the price of freedom, and hence we must all tacitly accept racism as part of our 'free' society. Good luck with that.
Legal in the US:

kkk.jpg


But so is this:

Rally_RM.jpg



Free speech is free speech for all, not just those you agree with. People died to make that point in this country.
 
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Speaking of ignorance, I take it you didn't see the nearly 15 minute interview with Rachel Maddow

Based on your comments from other discussion in regard to how you feel about ideologically principled people, particularly those with a libertarian leaning mindset, I doubt he would have ever had your support to begin with.

A neat reminder why I'm staying out of these discussions more these days - with insults like these (albeit directed at someone else), who needs debate...
 
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