Congresswoman critically injured and federal judge killed in an Arizona shooting

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:lol:

I think you should actually try living here & paying attention to what's actually going on in this country. Neither of what you said is the truth.

Actually, what he said about Obama is true. It's all in the "How," and this is not the place to discuss how Obama would not achieve that goal.
 
I have a problem with party politics and the falsity of this whole left-right R-D business. I don't like Olbermann's direction of his statement.
Yes, this was the unspoken acknowledgment in the room: that Olbermann was targeting O'Reilly, Palin, Beck, etc while also taking some share in the blame to misdirect that obvious dig. I get you here, and I'm sure it wasn't lost on most Americans either.

I was trying to bring attention to his message - in a bubble, free from the associations he already has.

He is implying that the killer's behavior stems from political rhetoric. To my mind, this is further empowering the false paradigm in which people seem to be stuck. That makes statements like these more polarizing than you think.

I still believe he's speaking in broader terms, as though it weren't specifcally the behaviour of the killer or specifically the politicians to be paid attention to, but rather the large inertial movements of classes to which politicians and the likes of the killer belong to.

What he's trying to say is being said through a collectivist filter, and that is what ruins it.
Because it betrays what he's saying, since it's pointed toward those I first mentioned, and not genuinely at everyone? Or because he's attempting to draw in the responsibility of everyone, without recognizing an actual culprit? (I'm leaning towards the latter.)

Parties only exist for one reason: to win elections.
Funny - that rings truer of our own parliamentary arrangement where we don't actually elect our leaders, the parties do.

Mass media and campaigning are designed to captivate individuals. It isn't within reason to expect that they tone down. Instead, individuals must divert their attention away from their grasp and back towards their own humanity.

I believe this to be dismissive of the forces at work in America, though not in itself untrue. The social hegemony of your news stations, which battle each other and obsess over reductivist political ideologies, are undeniable formers of American social standards and belief.

The problem that American news has created, is that it's entertaining. This is problematic because it carves out a psychology of appeal, one that's committed to avoiding risk through innovation. It's much easier—and safer—to be critical than to make yourself vulnerable through innovation. The presenters are all headstrong, charming, confident individuals who are dazzlingly eloquent in the ideas they put forth and criticize. More often than not, though, they're prone to sensationalism, and to focusing on the how, the who, the where, and the why, but very little of the what that exactly constitutes most government ideas or policies and how the ideas may actually affect America.

Of note is my general experience with Americans (those members of the broader population, less informed by history and international affairs than by US news stations), who tend to err either conservatively or liberally on more personal social issues, but generally descend to clichéd pocket-picked ideas on economics and social management & leadership, reflecting the simple principles regurgitated ad nauseum by the press and elite. When pressed on details, however, you would be surprised how much people differ in principle and what they didn't even realise they stood for - because discussion of politics is practically taboo in such a country where it's seen as a personal attack on someone else's liberty to confront the validity of their belief systems. (The unexamined life is not worth living, after all.)

The greatest difference I find between the two media cultures is how undeniably boring Canadian and British opinion-pieces & news feels after watching O'Reilly, Coulter, Maddow, or Olbermann glitter on screen.

Despite that, I find the ideas - the hypotheses and innovations of leadership theory - coming from UK & Canada to be much more inviting of discussion and avant garde (though we're certainly not free from all the political in-fighting, bickering, and squabbling.) America's pop-political discourse is so painfully stagnant, simplified, and archaic, though, that one feels cave-manish simply entertaining the ideas.

I don't believe the situation is particularly innate to your country - just look at FDR - but I feel that the culture of Washington and those who aspire to it has probably grown to become so self-interested that it can't help but act and react in increasingly reflexive, damaging, protective fashions, which rest on the manipulation of fallacious exploitations of America's constituents, making it virtually inevitable that this sort of uncompromisingly polarised psyche has arisen.

I think that if Americans are going to start holding themselves accountable to their own humanity, examples will have to be set that aren't formed in the offices of a PR firm. Examples are going to have to be set that don't expect some kind of adulation or reward for that showing of 'humanity'; in short, genuine human beings who are concerned for their community - and not the "community" that's so often bandied about by US neocons. A cursory glance at the well-stocked industry of city mayors you retain will reveal this sort of human character in office still exists, though seems to evaporate at the state level.

The nature of this assassination attempt is, I think, a simple manifestation. People often react this way in cultures of extreme ideological tension, there is a degree of predictability of this sort of thing. No doubt the people who've been rejected in their applications to the armed forces feel the need to lash out - who wouldn't feel burned by their country as they're denied by it when they're so frequently guilted into fighting for it or supporting those who do? It's practically textbook, though I'd never go as far as to describe the situation as unremarkable or expected. He seems to me a sort of Travis Bickle character, which, while an outlier, is still certainly an existent class of citizen that shouldn't be ignored.

Anyway, my cat just threw up and I forgot how I was going to conclude this thing when I got back; I may finish my piece if it comes to me, or if other considerations come to the fore.

-G.

Tragedy really brings out the best of America doesn't it?

I'd really like foreigners to know that we aren't all crackpots in America...I promise!

No, but you still have to live with them all.
 
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While it is tempting to dismiss this brutal act of violence as the actions of a mentally disturbed young man, it is obvious that the broader context needs to be understood in order to appreciate why this particular event/person was targetted. While I would stop short of saying that Sarah Palin and her supporters are to blame for this attack, I would say that Palin has been extremely naive and irresponsible for resorting to such firey rhetoric (and her 'crosshairs' list in particular), and that if she has any decency she should quit politics immediately. Somehow I doubt she will.
 
While I would stop short of saying that Sarah Palin and her supporters are to blame for this attack, I would say that Palin has been extremely naive and irresponsible for resorting to such firey rhetoric (and her 'crosshairs' list in particular), and that if she has any decency she should quit politics immediately. Somehow I doubt she will.
If there can be any kind of good derived from this tragedy, it is that perhaps that this will serve to underscore her behaviour to the American public, and hopefully it will diminish her position and stop someone with the potential to do a lot of damage from getting into a posititon of power. But it's truly a sad thing that such a tragedy would be needed to inspire such an awakening.
 
Wow, not seen that 'crosshairs' before. Quite amusing. Do people really fall for that mindless pap?
 
Wow, not seen that 'crosshairs' before. Quite amusing. Do people really fall for that mindless pap?

Yes, obviously they do. Right from the beginning, there has been a strong streak of looniness in American politics. Today, the economy is distressed, America hasn't won a war in decades, and many people are fearful of a future of competition with Asians and Africans in a glutted labor and manufacturing market. Fringe elements are now growing in numbers and influence. Reason, science, education, patient work toward a goal - all these things are seen to be unavailing in a general race to the bottom. 80% of 2010 college graduates failed to find work in their field. 16-19 years of education means next to nothing today. Instead of a future of self-reliance, freedom and prosperity, the bulk of Americans today are willing to accept a regime of high quality entertainment as a substitute. But when the ipod, drugs, alcohol, pornography, NFL, NASCAR and Fox info-tainment fall short of slaking the thirst for instant gratification, Americans have a penchant for grabbing their guns and making loud noises and stinking smoke all on their own.


Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
 
While it is tempting to dismiss this brutal act of violence as the actions of a mentally disturbed young man, it is obvious that the broader context needs to be understood in order to appreciate why this particular event/person was targetted. While I would stop short of saying that Sarah Palin and her supporters are to blame for this attack, I would say that Palin has been extremely naive and irresponsible for resorting to such firey rhetoric (and her 'crosshairs' list in particular), and that if she has any decency she should quit politics immediately. Somehow I doubt she will.

I still think this is more of a story of mental illness in america and not political activism. I think the fact that it is political is secondary if not a coincidence. Remember, this guy tried to kill any and everyone. Do you think that if Mitt Romney blew this guy off, the killer might have returned the favor in similar fashion? It is important to understand that this is an anomaly of mental derangement, and the lesson we should take away from this is that we as human beings should not stoop to such derangement in our discourse. All of this comes way, way before politics. You are probably right that it was taken for granted that all people are immune to the clumsy digs at decency that have become a routine part of the frenzy to captivate the masses. However, those that have been part of the problem can't all of a sudden take the moral high ground.
 
On a different note...

Wasn't one of the people he gunned down a federal judge?

If it was, his days are numbered.... negatively.... starting now....
 
Very interesting debate. I don't pretend to understand the whole political landscape in the US at present but looking from a distance it seems extremely troubled. As for this story, yeah the guy appears to be a wacko but I feel his targeting of this congress women does lean towards some political motivation, the two are not mutually exclusive.

I would also say that the words of Olbermann, whilst possibly politically motivated, I know nothing about the man, still ring true with me. And he does start his pre-amble by talking about the whole political spectrum. Whether this congress woman had been murdered or not, his words would have still had as much meaning. There is no place for that sort of rhetoric in the political sphere of influence. The implied use of violence has no place in all of society. So maybe Olbermann used it for political point scoring but it doesn't make his view any less valid.
 
On a different note...

Wasn't one of the people he gunned down a federal judge?

If it was, his days are numbered.... negatively.... starting now....

Yep he will probably be executed.
 
I still think this is more of a story of mental illness in america and not political activism. I think the fact that it is political is secondary if not a coincidence. Remember, this guy tried to kill any and everyone. Do you think that if Mitt Romney blew this guy off, the killer might have returned the favor in similar fashion? It is important to understand that this is an anomaly of mental derangement, and the lesson we should take away from this is that we as human beings should not stoop to such derangement in our discourse. All of this comes way, way before politics. You are probably right that it was taken for granted that all people are immune to the clumsy digs at decency that have become a routine part of the frenzy to captivate the masses. However, those that have been part of the problem can't all of a sudden take the moral high ground.
This is true... and to be honest, there are plenty of people unfairly claiming that Palin, Beck, Angle etc. are somehow responsible for this act. I don't buy that, but I do think that it puts their more combative comments into sharp (and very embarrassing) focus, which for a politician of Palin's ambition, could be terminally damaging. However, at most, these comments can only really be considered as massively embarrassing gaffes in hindsight - but politicians in the UK have resigned over considerably more triffling affairs than this. Unfortunately, it would be true to say that alot of people simply would like to see Palin's scalp under any circumstances, and are probably quite willing to exploit her connection to this incident as far as they can in the hope that she will quit public life. That said, I bet there are more than a few senior Republicans who would not be displeased at that prospect either.

I guess that anyone with a genuine political grievance would surely have understood that gunning down a congresswoman (a former Republican turned Democrat no less), a judge, and a 9-year old girl (born of Sept. 11, 2001 no less) and anyone else in his way for that matter, would likely do nothing but galvanise support against whatever they stood for.... however, it's not at all clear in this case that the gunman stood for anything in particular, not anything that made much sense anyway.
 
In an interesting turn of events, it seems that the Congresswoman's facebook page has only two subscriptions to other accounts. The first is another democratic congressman that has since been voted out of office. The second is that of Jared Loughner, the gunman. This is the killer's youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10 You can see it linked at the bottom left of Giffords's page: http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2

Why is she subscribed to this wacko's youtube channel? Did she subscribe to it or did a staffer of hers do so? If a staffer did it, did the staffer know anything about what was going to happen? As mc chris once said, "This is the underworld and you guys do spooky stuff down here!"

Anyway, that guy is bat**** insane.
 
I personally feel while the shooting itself may/may not have been politically motivated, that Sarah Palin and perhaps those responsible for Tea Party rhetoric, should be slapped w/ a civil suit. I've long had issues w/ the litigious nature of the US in general, but this presents itself as the perfect opportunity to take advantage of it.
Odd, I always thought the person pulling the trigger was the one responsible.

No responsible public figure should be allowed to put someone in crosshairs, as if they are being targeted by a gun.
By public figure I assume you mean that she is a private citizen who does things in the public eye, not as in she is a public employee or elected official? In that case, this means that you are promoting the removal of her 1st Amendment right. Should any person be allowed to do anything that can be taken as a call to violence on the Internet? Should everyone who quotes Jefferson publicly face some legal action?

And for those who feel the anti-Tea Party sentiment is unjustified, then why was the crosshairs picture removed immediately afterwards?
It would have been in poor taste to leave it up and you would be going on about t still being on her Web site after this event if they didn't.

If those whom placed it there were ok w/ the connations it bore when originally placed, unless they feel some twinge of responsibility, there should be no reason to remove it.
Unless of course the connotations at the time were targeting them to defeat them in the election and now any idiot can see that it can (and is) be twisted to say something more.

This is not a Conservative vs. Liberal Arguement.. this is an issue of civility, and what the Tea Party has demonstrated time and time again, is its inability to reign in its fringe members to adhere to a sense of decency.
So Al Gore is to blame for every Hummer dealer that is set on fire by the Earth Liberation Front, PETA is to blame for every lab that tests animals that is broken into and vandalized, etc?

Incidents like these should show the Left and the Right why Palin and her fervent followers should be dismissed from public service and shipped off somewhere.
Palin does not work in public service. She resigned from her Governor job a while back and has been doing nothing more than making speeches. If those in the media that disagreed with her didn't cover her 2/3 of the country wouldn't know she exists right now.

Let the Dems, Reps and Inds fight it out with words and campaign commercials, cause if fanatics are willing to gun down decent-looking white women, then Obama better step up his security now.(I really worry for him sometimes:nervous:)
Obama can't walk down the hall of the White House without a security detail. His public appearances are preceded by security sweeps, and all those in attendance must be checked in advance. There is a chance something will slip through at times where things are not 100% controllable, but it will be rare.

The situation here was far different than Obama will ever experience. In this case a member of Congress can go home for ad-hoc meetings with their constituents without any kind of security. The President can't go to the bathroom without being in sight of at least four guys who have vowed to surrender their life for his.

Olberman condemns all fantastico-militant rhetoric:

KettleCallingPotBlack.jpg


To be fair to him, he does admit to his own past comments at the end.

His point is very valid, however an honest person wouldn't have needed this event to understand it. And an honest person wouldn't have only named their professional competition. Sadly, this reeks more of attempting to get a ratings bump than anything heartfelt.




Overall, I feel that blaming political commentary for this man's actions in anyway is no different than blaming video games on every school shooting. People are unstable and do crazy crap. It happens. It is sad and disturbing, but the simple fact is that no matter what justification they have in their head you have to be crazy to do something like this. I for one refuse to walk on egg shells because some nutjob might snap over my words.
 
You have to be sick in the head to shoot innocent people, it's really quite obvious, the man is a paranoid psychotic. No amount of political agitation will push a normal human to kill people, hell, militaries have a hard time training men to kill other men even in war, look up the statistics if you don't believe me. This just illustrates how quick people are to to use any event even one as painful and heartbreaking as this one to push their political ideology. It's a sad testament to how partisan and insecure people are.
 
The masses are truly ignorant and will always be led around by their emotions.

The gunman is a very limited and sick individual no matter his supposed intellect or political leanings.
 
I for one refuse to walk on egg shells because some nutjob might snap over my words.

This just illustrates how quick people are to to use any event even one as painful and heartbreaking as this one to push their political ideology.

While not disagreeing with the above, I have to note that politicians of most every stripe as well as prominent media authorities are now calling for a general cooling-down of the recently heated political rhetoric. Are they wrong in doing so? Or are they right but for the wrong reasons - politicans out of physical fear and media-types out of lust for air-time?

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini
 
While not disagreeing with the above, I have to note that politicians of most every stripe as well as prominent media authorities are now calling for a general cooling-down of the recently heated political rhetoric. Are they wrong in doing so? Or are they right but for the wrong reasons - politicans out of physical fear and media-types out of lust for air-time?

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini

I generally pay little attention to politicians and major media establishments, neither really have good will or good intentions in my opinion. We are all self motivated individuals and I find it hard to believe them to be any different. I will say that that's probably the responsible thing to do but with what intentions they have in scaling back the rhetoric I cannot say.
 
I also think this is a classic "video game" argument. I just can't believe that accountability of this madman, by some, is being shared with Sarah Palin, or talk show hosts. In my view, the responsibility rests on just the shooter, and anyone who might have had a prior knowledge of this act. If we are going to condemn anyone, anything for making crazy people commit murders, we might as well ban love, religion, Hollywood, sports, anything that might urge a crazy to kill another human being.

If anything, discussion should be about improving detection & treatment of people with mental illness in our society.
 
I'm reading it slightly differently, here. I don't deny that the accountablity rests with the shooter, and with the shooter alone. But I also think that the tragedy has underlined some of the rhetoric used by other politicians. Those politicians aren't accountable for the shooter's actions - whether directly or indirectly - but circumstance has played out in a way that highlights dangerous politics.
 
I also think this is a classic "video game" argument. I just can't believe that accountability of this madman, by some, is being shared with Sarah Palin, or talk show hosts. In my view, the responsibility rests on just the shooter, and anyone who might have had a prior knowledge of this act. If we are going to condemn anyone, anything for making crazy people commit murders, we might as well ban love, religion, Hollywood, sports, anything that might urge a crazy to kill another human being.

If anything, discussion should be about improving detection & treatment of people with mental illness in our society.

Depending on the kind of detection could put us all under the boot of the state.

What we will really need is more love and understanding and less blame and
judgement past on our fellow man before they go crazy and do bad things.

We always hear the questions why and there truly is no mystery.
Someone got pushed past the breaking point and we miss it coming on
because there are many different levels of understanding and coping in us all.

This isn't excusing bad behaviors or crimes but until we can meet and look the enemy in ourselves
and accept who we are there will always exist the crabs in a bucket mentality of constant competition and judgement...
...and that is what drives those of weaker constitutions over the edge most every time.

There will always be those that slip through though since we are so imperfect.

There is no universal fix other than the continued vilgilance in love and kindness of us and our own by each of us...
...but we go back to the bucket of crabs analogy because new crabs are born every day.

I suppose we just really need to focus on our own understanding (but not get stuck there)
of who we are so we can better recognize when another is suffering and be able to reach out without fear or revulsion.
 
That is a cheese slipped off the cracker look if there ever was one.

Not sure how he could make it down the street without having a net thrown over him.


But already knowing what he's done adds a sort of bias to that opinion.

I've seen some drunks with a very similar look as well.
 
We always hear the questions why and there truly is no mystery.
Someone got pushed past the breaking point and we miss it coming on
because there are many different levels of understanding and coping in us all.

You have no concept on mental illness.

Why is it that some people kill themselves, but others feel the need to take others? My uncle has schizophrenia, and he will only hurt himself. He feels no there is no breaking point, it's just a fallacy, used by "sane" humans to understand why something like this would occur. Reality and truth become blurred to a point where an event can become something completely different to a mentally ill person, and even events can be internalized and they believe it actually occurred and is factual.

It is something that just runs in my family. I've had trouble with depression. When you live around and even live with it, I just see it differently. Some of these people cannot be helped, and putting them on massive amounts of drugs is just as bad. I've tried it, and I didn't feel like myself at all. If society, and our culture feels the need to solve problems with just medication, might as well just lobotomize them. In my opinion that's what is occurring anyways. What is it that could help these people deal and live with chaotic minds, maybe come to grips with what seems to be reality. I have no idea, maybe a complete change in how society views "crazy people". How we relate to them. There is nothing worse though, than singling out a person and sending them to treatment. It's like telling someone they are crazy, for years and years, and you know what, eventually they start to believe it.

Not only that, but the accessibility to firearms needs to be put to a stop. Why is it that someone who is beyond the point of no return can have such ease at acquiring such armament. Let alone any sap off the street. The logical is beyond moronic at this point. I don't understand why many Americans feel they need to have ability to.

Maybe it is best that we all seek out help.
 
Hey take care now and don't get to feeling too pregnant there.

Everyone is crazy...
...it's the one's that can't admit it that have the real problem.
 
I'm reading it slightly differently, here. I don't deny that the accountablity rests with the shooter, and with the shooter alone. But I also think that the tragedy has underlined some of the rhetoric used by other politicians. Those politicians aren't accountable for the shooter's actions - whether directly or indirectly - but circumstance has played out in a way that highlights dangerous politics.

I reckon that Palin and some others will stand to lose a substantial chunk of credibility as a result of this - and some may say deservedly so. Certainly, many people affected by this incident are pretty unequivocal when it comes to what they think. Here's a pretty damning example:

At the International Space Station, Giffords' brother-in-law, Scott Kelly, the commanding officer, spoke over the radio as flight controllers in Houston fell silent.

"As I look out the window, I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful," he said. "Unfortunately, it is not.

"These days, we are constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict upon one another, not just with our actions, but also with our irresponsible words," he said.

"We're better than this," he said. "We must do better."

On another note, you have to wonder at the state of things when a law has to be rushed through in order to attempt to prevent people from picketing the funeral of a 9 year old girl. The infamously brain-dead scum-bucket Westboro Baptist Church plan to turn up at the funeral, and have already stated "Thank God for the violent shooter." I don't find it that hard to get my head around how people like Jared Lee Loughner come about - but I do find it hard to get my head around how people like Fred Phelps can come about and be allowed to operate with impunity.
 
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If anything, discussion should be about improving detection & treatment of people with mental illness in our society.

Depending on the kind of detection could put us all under the boot of the state.

In China, the mentally ill are forced to work in slave factories, naked, and fed dogfood. These are currently among the people with whom we are competing for wages and manufacturing. But China is not standing still! Oh no! They are opening new factories in Africa with yet lower wages. They are doing this with the money we borrowed (from them, Arabs and others) to pay for the goods they sold us that we were strictly unwilling to buy (on capitalist grounds) from our neighbor across the street or the village down the road.

Who needs the boot of the state when we willingly place ourselves in the debt of others? Who is really acting self-destructively under the supposed imprimatur of enlightened self-interest?

Respectfully submitted and eager for correction,
Dotini
 
On that note, you were all pretty quick to paint Loughner as crazy. . .

;)

Yes and he is violent crazy which isn't the same as flower eating crazy...
...but then it isn't as far from the other as some may like to think.

Besides my judgement of him came after the fact.
 
Well, I caught Nightline on ABC last night and they basically went through this guy's entire life story. If half of it was true I think it is safe to say that no rhetoric, no political philosophy, and whatever other political media sources people are looking at can be blamed. He seems to have been pretty much crazy.

What I gathered:
  • From early childhood he was a bit of a loner, as his family didn't let him play with the neighborhood kids. The family as a whole was apparently reclusive.
  • When he got older he gained some friends with whom he discussed politics, but within the last few years even they didn't know what he was talking about.
  • His favorite books list included everything from Ayn Rand to Animal Farm to The Communist Manifesto to Mein Kompf, which puts his reading material all over the political spectrum.
  • He giggled in class randomly and some of his behavior became disturbing enough that he left community college after they said he had to leave or seek counseling.
  • He was obsessed with 2012 prophesies.
  • He was into lucid dreaming.
  • He believed the world did not exist and things only had meaning in dreams.
  • In 2007 he met Giffords and asked her, "What is government if words have no meaning." She had no answer and he began telling his friends she was obviously a fraud because she didn't get it (neither did they).
I see all this as the sign of a guy that was just plain old unstable. You could remove half that list and still have warning flags.


As for what this will likely do for political rhetoric, nothing. You can see that clearly right now by watching the pundits blame each other for this. They blame them because of their rhetoric and their political ideology. The simple fact that they are attempting to use this tragedy to paint their professional opponents in a negative light should tell you all you need to know. At least for the moment most politicians themselves have kept quiet when it comes to the blame game. Some have mad comments when questioned and some have called for reducing the rhetoric, but they have kept finger-pointing to a minimum. Sure, some have fed off of pundits in some of their actions, but can you blame them?

And perhaps that shows where the supposed change needs to be: Punditry. It isn't the rhetoric used in real debate on the Congressional floor or between people discussing opposing views, it is in the heads on TV. We can not legislate these pundits in any real way, nor should we. But if you truly and honestly believe a change needs to happen then turn them off. Don't post videos from people like Beck or Olbermann. Well, you can if it is Olbermann when he used to do funny sports stuff with Craig Kilborn. But anyone that feels there is a problem can act on that by simply not watching, and they will go away.
 
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