Course Maker in GT6?

[snowgt]

The definition of the word "algorithm" per se does not imply randomness.

That means, that a "new algorithm" could also mean that the course generation is entirely determined by parameters set by the user, e.g. choosing pre-existing tracks in the Ronda-scenery, or being able to choose or manipulate every aspect of a track.

 

[karelpipa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTH1Tk1jtI

I bet that this track creator will still be better in most of the features (elevation, direction, bumpiness etc.) than GT6's.

EDIT: One of few features missing is : Ability to do crossings (aka tunnel or bridge)

 

[Griffith500]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTH1Tk1jtI

I bet that this track creator will still be better in most of the features (elevation, direction, bumpiness etc.) than GT6's

That's basically how the tracks were represented in GPL (but without the grid and discrete angle basis); there's a bit of finicky stitching required for the scenery (immediate and distant) on opposite sides of the track (e.g. in-field), but it's pretty simple to code. I don't know if it's easy to drape a "ribbon" made in this way over a pre-existing background with hills etc. Looking at the existing course creator tracks, it could well be the way they are already composited (from the pre-set terrain and the generated ribbon).

I wonder if that's in-depth enough, still, because there is no direct control over the scenery.

Another thing to consider is that that generator is clearly a pared-down toolset exposing the structure and method used for VRally 2's developer-made courses. I.e., all the courses are built using that method, but presumably with more fine-grained (i.e. gridless etc.) control over the ribbon, as well as control over the scenery created. PD's tracks aren't like that and they would be making extra tools, effectively (rather than re-appropriating tools that already exist).

 

[Johnnypenso]

I hadn't thought of that. Ugh, that's depressing.

Why bother having a massive area to put tracks in if it's just going to be random corners? Even if I somehow get a good track out of it, it's going to be because I got lucky, not because I have any skill as a track designer.

Have a "Generate Random" button for those who just want to make something fast, if you must, but leave at least some control for those who actually want to design a track. Choosing which of several dozen routes to take between waypoints would be an acceptable compromise.

Can't agree more, Course Maker 1 was awful . You could get a decent track once in a while but it was pure luck and never what you really wanted, just random pushing of buttons that happened to go in your favour after hours of trial and error. If the areas for course generation are huge, and maybe include scenery like Ronda and others, but is still a random generation of track, I won't even bother to open it up.

 

[Griffith500]

It only took half an hour or so to figure out what did what, after that the trial and error was more in getting the sliders in the right place relative to each other, due to interactions. The interactions (though frustrating at times) were still pretty easy to predict and it was easy to iterate a particular idea or theme to find something that worked. After that, it was a case of fine tuning things like camber and width.

I guess the issue is that it only appealed to a certain kind of creativity, whereas the type of course creator everyone seems to be clamouring for only appeals to a different kind of creativity. That's why we need both (plus this third "pick your own" method), preferably combined somehow.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It only took half an hour or so to figure out what did what, after that the trial and error was more in getting the sliders in the right place relative to each other, due to interactions. The interactions (though frustrating at times) were still pretty easy to predict and it was easy to iterate a particular idea or theme to find something that worked. After that, it was a case of fine tuning things like camber and width.

I guess the issue is that it only appealed to a certain kind of creativity, whereas the type of course creator everyone seems to be clamouring for only appeals to a different kind of creativity. That's why we need both (plus this third "pick your own" method), preferably combined somehow.

Elevations were not defined in the schematic, sliders worked up to a point, then they would completely change not only the sector you were working on, but the whole track. The change tended to be small in the slides until you got near the top of the scale then they just went wild for some unnecessary reason. Front straight was fixed length and far too long for short courses. Tracks were smoother than a hockey rink ice surface. Overwhelming tendency to put tighter corners at the top of hills. No options for flat or nearly flat tracks. Need I go on?

Yeah it was great...👎👎 That's why you saw so many leagues and rooms online using course generator tracks....wait...no you didn't..💡💡

 

[karelpipa]

Cannot agree more (especially those super tight very elevated corners are pain in the A**.

 

[Tenacious D]

Tracks were smoother than a hockey rink ice surface.

Well, that describes nearly every race track in every racing game outside of Rally games. Shift attempted bumpy tracks, and for the most part it was a mess for cars of any real speed. The last F1 game I tried has tracks which were ruler flat.

Yeah (Course Maker) was great...👎👎 That's why you saw so many leagues and rooms online using course generator tracks....wait...no you didn't..💡💡

Uh-huh... wouldn't have a thing to do with preferring established race courses or something, would it.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

I really hope they don't use pre set track sections

 

[Griffith500]

Elevations were not defined in the schematic, sliders worked up to a point, then they would completely change not only the sector you were working on, but the whole track. The change tended to be small in the slides until you got near the top of the scale then they just went wild for some unnecessary reason. Front straight was fixed length and far too long for short courses. Tracks were smoother than a hockey rink ice surface. Overwhelming tendency to put tighter corners at the top of hills. No options for flat or nearly flat tracks. Need I go on?

Yeah it was great...👎👎 That's why you saw so many leagues and rooms online using course generator tracks....wait...no you didn't..💡💡

The elevation was already in the underlying terrain, but, granted, if you struggle to read the contours, I guess that makes things difficult (not something I'd considered before). I would click "new" until the sector boundaries ("nodes") ended up in "promising" locations over the terrain, then start tweaking things so the road did interesting things over that terrain (and, yes, desperately trying to avoid those silly crested corners).

That interaction you described is frustrating, but it was obviously intended to prevent intersection - I think it was discovered that there are only so many combinations, presumably hand-picked to avoid the intersections (and also explaining the shortage of terrain). You could avoid some of the "wildness" by getting "good" node locations, again. That's why it'd be nice to be able to place them yourself, but you still need that feel for the underlying generation that already allows some people to pick out good starting points in the randomly selected locations we get now.

The lack of flat tracks is because the terrain isn't flat - there are only a couple of terrains per theme. These can easily be generated in a separate step. The smoothness is also easily fixed, but difficult to polish (heh). And the intersection issue can be handled procedurally too (with some difficulty, granted), which would really open up the range of things and potentially avoid the "wildness" (it should allow intersections in the preview, but warn us and not "bake" it like that).


I'm not saying the generated tracks are ideal for "racing" (by which you mean any popularised form of circuit racing, no doubt), especially not your typical leagues (unless it's something more independently contrived). For me, that's not the point of a generator at all.

Ever since that trailer with the first glimpse of damage with the Subaru rally car on what would become Toscana gravel (that we didn't get), I was preparing myself for procedurally generated tracks. Calling it a "Course Maker" might be a bit cheeky, but, like so much in the series, it's more a statement of intent at this point.

I also happen think it was added late in development, because point-to-point and variable surfaces should have been straight-forward to include, as well as the terrain generator and eventually the intersection testing - some of the pre-release shots included terrain (identifiable by the contour plots) that we didn't get in the game.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, that describes nearly every race track in every racing game outside of Rally games. Shift attempted bumpy tracks, and for the most part it was a mess for cars of any real speed. The last F1 game I tried has tracks which were ruler flat.

Uh-huh... wouldn't have a thing to do with preferring established race courses or something, would it.

Just like that highly unpopular track...what's it called...Nurbsomething...yeah it's pretty flat and featureless... Nurb is what I'd call undulating, with camber all over the place both positive and negative, and a road surface that is often highly crowned in the middle, that's part of what makes it a classic. Tracks are pretty boring that are essential perfectly smooth all over the surface and tend to have large flowing corners and straights that are pretty unrealistically long especially for the average street cars this game represents to be the heart and soul of it's legacy.

Modern F1 tracks with their high downforce depend on consistent contact with the road to function at full capacity. No surprise their tracks are flat.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the Nordschleife, a course including the GP section I have raced literally several hundred times just in GT5. I'm also aware of the Sebring track, available in very few racing games, with its out of kilter section. I'm also aware of a few tracks in Toca and GTR which are notorious for a few rough spots they took the time to capture more or less properly.

Other asphalt or concrete tracks? In just about every game I've tried, they felt freshly surfaced. So other than Shift, and tracks of notable exception, I'm just not aware of many games having anything but a smooth luxury ride.

 

[Imari]

Well, that describes nearly every race track in every racing game outside of Rally games.

You already mentioned Shift. Also, iRacing, rFactor 1 and 2, nkPro, Assetto Corsa, pCARS, GT Legends, GTR 2, and that's only the ones I personally own (or owned). (Edit: and actually, F1CE now that I come to think of it rattled the bejeezus out of my DFGT.)

Nearly every track in nearly every non-Rally game is totally false, unless you confine yourself to console racing games.


And you seem to be so overawed by GT5s course maker that you're missing what was done wrong. It was a reasonable concept, a Modnations style track editor is a big ask, and so the GT5 one was a decent middle ground. Except that even within the limitations of what it is, the slider method of controlling what track you end up with is unnecessarily obtuse and confusing.

There is no way of knowing for sure what a slider will do, without doing it. It's purely trial and error. Much of the time it'll do what you expect, but a significant proportion of the time it'll do something completely wacky, or change your whole track.

Leave a "Generate Random" button in for people who want to play that game, that's fine. For the rest of us:
1. Choose a set of nodes/anchor points/sector points. Those are the basis for your track.
2. For each sector, the game generates a list allowable routes. Display said list, and choose the one you like.
3. Track done, have fun.

Far more intuitive to use (you can see what you're getting), far easier to get the desired result, far less time consuming. Is there a problem with this? I don't see that it does anything that the course maker isn't capable of now, it's simply a different presentation.

So to be clear, what the GT5 course maker is capable of is totally acceptable. It can make great tracks, no question. What's wrong with it is the interface. Which unfortunately takes away most of the fun for people unwilling to go through the pain it requires to make a decent track.

It reminds me of James May driving around the Top Gear track in a sleeping bag. Driving around a race track: fun. Driving while in a sleeping bag: fun for about twenty seconds, then it's just frustrating that you can't do what you want to do.

 

[Raggadish]

I don't understand why people is excited about this. 2500 square kilometers is pretty uninteresting unless we're given tools to further build, shape and form the layout far beyond what GT5 offered.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I don't understand why people is excited about this. 2500 square kilometers is pretty uninteresting unless we're given tools to further build, shape and form the layout beyond what GT5 offered.

Indeed. Quality > Quantity.

The concern I have is the screenshot we saw, with PD announcing a "new course generation algorithm". PD really don't market their games such that they allay legitimate concerns.

 

[GTV0819]

I hope this 2500 square kilometers track maker will include Dirt & Snow, too. Because rallying is fun for me in Gran Turismo.

 

[KingSakery]

I truely hope the Generator isn´t a generator again.
I just need following input possibilities:
Tracklenght
Number of sectors --> Number of Turns per sector and distance between them Turns
Elevation change (set lowest point and highest point of track and sector elevationchange)
Banking and angle of them Turns
Set correct Kurbs (this bothers me the most in GT5´s Generator)
Clockwise, Counterclockwise, Figure 8
Bumpieness and width of Track/Sector

Thats it with above settings you could recreate old Fuji, old Hockenheim or any other Track real or leftout GT-classics.

But the pic someone posted sounds that we get a generator again instead of above.
I do still hope it´s not

 

[Tenacious D]

You already mentioned Shift. Also, iRacing, rFactor 1 and 2, nkPro, Assetto Corsa, pCARS, GT Legends, GTR 2, and that's only the ones I personally own (or owned). (Edit: and actually, F1CE now that I come to think of it rattled the bejeezus out of my DFGT.)

I'm wondering how "for real" this is. I poked around and found a few boards mentioning a couple of tracks in rFactor, like St Petersburg, but really, the mention is quite rare for even PC sims. After all, you're the person who threw out "Oh, other racing teams use video games to set up their cars" with no justification or source, which the only "game" I found was a professional racing simulator.

But I'll admit that I haven't raced iRenting, or rFactor either, a game so stupidly designed that the auto/manual selection is buried in some "secret" menu - i.e., the LAST place you'd expect to find it. I'm also baffled that so many people love rFactor because it seems to have been the best 90's era racer ever made. To wit, I can't recall any modern racer which seemed to have a car hung on a spindle while the world rotated underneath.

But I relent. Every game but Gran Turismo has bumpy tracks.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But I relent. Every game but Gran Turismo has bumpy tracks.

It's not a question of what everyone else does, I don't play any other racing games and I don't compare GT to them because I can't. I could care less if every other game in the world had glass flat tracks. My point about the course maker was that all the track generated are smooth as glass and in reality, outside of modern F1 style circuits, most tracks are anything but flat. If every other game models most tracks as butter smooth I'd have the same criticsm for them as well. Most real tracks have little bumps and undulations that give them character and style and make them more challenging and fun to drive. This was missing from the Course Maker in GT5 and regardless of how well a track was laid out, it made most of them pretty boring. I'm hoping they do something about it in GT6, but I highly doubt they'll get into that detail.

 

[Imari]

I'm wondering how "for real" this is. I poked around and found a few boards mentioning a couple of tracks in rFactor, like St Petersburg, but really, the mention is quite rare for even PC sims.

Mentioning bumpy tracks? Because it's not abnormal on PC sims.

After all, you're the person who threw out "Oh, other racing teams use video games to set up their cars" with no justification or source, which the only "game" I found was a professional racing simulator.

Relevance to this conversation is what? Play the ball, not the man.

But I'll admit that I haven't raced iRenting, or rFactor either, a game so stupidly designed that the auto/manual selection is buried in some "secret" menu - i.e., the LAST place you'd expect to find it. I'm also baffled that so many people love rFactor because it seems to have been the best 90's era racer ever made. To wit, I can't recall any modern racer which seemed to have a car hung on a spindle while the world rotated underneath.

I didn't say that any of the games I listed were GOOD games. I don't like rFactor myself, rF1 is obtuse to use as you pointed out and rF2 is not much better. But they are example of games where the tracks are not glass smooth (where appropriate).

But I relent. Every game but Gran Turismo has bumpy tracks.

And that's not what I or anyone else claimed either, so don't make it sound like it was. You said nearly every track in nearly every non-Rally game is smooth. I'm merely refuting that statement.

 

[Tenacious D]

Most real tracks have little bumps and undulations that give them character and style and make them more challenging and fun to drive.

And that's not what I or anyone else claimed either, so don't make it sound like it was. You said nearly every track in nearly every non-Rally game is smooth. I'm merely refuting that statement.

I'm going to address them jointly, because they do sort of intersect.

Imari, you did mention just about every major non-rally game except for Live For Speed, so let me address this as well. It does have a bumpy track, although it's more of a rallycross circuit because the bumpy part is gravel. The other courses don't really seem to have any particularly uneven sections. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know.

In fact, just going back and checking out the tracks remarked on boards as being bumpy for rFactor and the Simbin games, they're MODS. Now that's fine, but even looking at YouTubes of these games for those tracks noted for having character such as in Assetto Corsa... I will admit that they're not ruler flat. But that "bumpy character" thing... I'll have to say at the very least, looks quite a bit overstated. Maybe I'm just not seeing that magical video, I don't know. Even the Race Room videos I've seen which are growing on me more than any other game out there don't really seem to have tracks all that rambunctious, though they do have that "character" thing going on.

Not to say that I don't like tracks with character myself, I very much do. And I would like to see some sort of imperfections in GT6 courses, including those made with the Course Maker. I will say that my "Excalibur" Course Maker circuit has some turns that cause the car to shudder around turns about as much as I've seen on YT vids from other games. It could simply be the car fighting the suspension under hard turning, but I don't know. One quick edit: it does seem that in one of the updates for GT5, the courses were smoothed over, perhaps even the Nurb slightly. It seems that PD did this from complaints of motion sickness from a number of those who drive in cockpit cam, which really surprised me. they must be hypersensitive to it, which caused some of us to post requests for options for camera shake amount.

Admittedly again, something like Shift's crazy surfaces on some tracks/sections of tracks would be ideal, as long as racing wasn't as challenging as pulling your own teeth. Something that required some careful set up to get the car best suited to the track - and something like a virtual crew chief to do a ballpark would be almost essential in GT6, something else I've been calling for. And again, with options for camera shake amount and style for those sensitive to motion queasiness.

Hopefully my aquiescing on this point is something of a group hug, and we can get back to the point of what we'd hope to do with up to 10,000 sq/km of space

 

[MrDrWatson]

I only hope we can download and play other players creations, without them having to be on our friends list. I also like the idea of a random generator, somedays I feel like trying a completely new and random course, that was my main use of gt5 editor.

 

[HaylRayzor]

The Course Maker keeps getting smaller... (20x20 is still very large, but only 4% what they originally said)

And now it probably isn't going to be ready at release.

Just get it right. Please!

GTP: First, Kazunori, I’d like to talk about your recent comments on the possible size of Course Maker tracks – when you mentioned they could cover an area of over 2,500 kilometers.

“Yes, originally it was said there would be 100×100, then we said 50×50 kilometers.

“Going by the latest info I’m getting from our development staff, it might end up being closer to 20×20. That is still very large - the Nurburgring is about 5×5 kilometers in the game, so it is quite a lot of space.”

GTP: Will players have more control over the tracks they can create in GT6, compared to GT5?

“Yes. In regards to the course maker, it is cutting it really close as to whether or not it will make it in time for day one or not for GT6. It’s definitely going to be there, but whether or not it will be available from day one I’m just not really sure right now.

“We might start off by providing tracks that we’ve made to the users first – and then the editing user interface might come a little bit after that.”

 

[another_jakhole]

This would no doubt be a very welcome feature. Things as simple as putting up custom braking markers, or bushes or trees, custom curbs, sausage curbs on the inside to eliminate cutting the corners or the need for penalties on. Custom signs would be great, but I'd settle for a wealth of stock signs too. Placing different types of pits and grandstands would be great too. Anything PD can do to make custom courses look more like real courses would be a welcome change..but I won't hold my breath waiting for it...lol
I'm still finding it hard to believe we'll be able to choose our own streets through Ronda to run on.

Tunnels and jumps/ramps (not kidding) for dirt tracks. There was a small, but mighty, jump at Toscana and it's a realistic thing. The cars bottoming-out shouldn't have an effect on damage, unless it was in GT Pro , but seriously.

Even if we can't make our own scenery, the environments that the custom courses use are barren wastelands. They could at least add some more scenery.

That's fair enough. The layouts for GT5 were too empty, but then again, three of them had time change with one of them having weather. There are only hopes for improvements.

I really want Tokyo Bay back with it having a pit lane and weather (HOPEFULLY it'll have 24 hours time change.)

 

[HaylRayzor]

I really want Tokyo Bay back with it having a pit lane and weather (HOPEFULLY it'll have 24 hours time change.)

A Tokyo Bay variant with a bit wider track and pit road would have made the GT5 CM 10x better.

 

[another_jakhole]

A Tokyo Bay variant with a bit wider track and pit road would have made the GT5 CM 10x better.

Its initial intention was obviously for karting. I used it for drifting and the occasional learning of how I should take an apex, but mostly drifting. I think a wider version of it would be good if it wasn't lacking on the visual side for "true" circuit racing which I think you were eluding to.

 

[Handlebar]

I had little faith Kaz would live up to his promises for a track creator.

So he is down to 4% or 0 of his publicity generating comments of only a few weeks ago?Generate a little buzz then skate off with no delivery.... Ugh. 👎

I winder...Has he decided to make Track Creator a paid DLC yet?

 

[another_jakhole]

I had little faith Kaz would live up to his promises for a track creator.

So he is down to 4% or 0 of his publicity generating comments of only a few weeks ago?Generate a little buzz then skate off with no delivery.... Ugh. 👎

I winder...Has he decided to make Track Creator a paid DLC yet?

No.

 

[MockngBrd]

track creator latest build

 

[Johnnypenso]

track creator latest build

Add me to your friends list, I can't wait to try that!!