COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

[Touring Mars]

A couple of guys from my old department have done a detailed analysis of the paper that suggested that SARS-CoV-2 had evolved into tow major types, with one being more aggressive than the other - their study shows that this claim cannot be substantiated...

https://academic.oup.com/ve/advance...vxPF7pCKsEEzpSpbDKqF_y6CHZU30F7CkLsbIpvo4URKU

 

[PzR Slim]

Prof. Neil Ferguson, one of the UK's top epidemiologists and a key adviser to the UK government on the pandemic, has resigned after it has been reported that he has been flouting lockdown rules to go and visit his (married) lover...

...meanwhile, the Twittersphere explodes in righteous indignation, with predictable outrage over how this guy is 'responsible for the lockdown' with his 'bogus predictions' and that no-one should ever listen to a scientific adviser again...

Great.

I've also read it happened quite a few weeks ago but all over the papers now. Interesting how the rest of the world are reporting on us today.

 

[Danoff]

More discussion of a "challenge trial" (infecting vaccinated people with live virus) here. This article makes it sound like it's decently likely to happen, and that's apparently something with little or no precedent. We just don't infect people with potentially deadly viruses for which there is no cure in hopes that the vaccine works. The article makes the interesting point that it takes 10s of thousands of people in a trial if you're going to send them out into a socially distancing public and expect that a statistically significant portion of them should have gotten sick. If you do a challenge trial, you could get away with a much smaller sample set.

This vaccine is going to be basically the least tested vaccine you've ever injected yourself with.

 

[Joey D]

A couple of guys from my old department have done a detailed analysis of the paper that suggested that SARS-CoV-2 had evolved into tow major types, with one being more aggressive than the other - their study shows that this claim cannot be substantiated...

https://academic.oup.com/ve/advance...vxPF7pCKsEEzpSpbDKqF_y6CHZU30F7CkLsbIpvo4URKU

This is why peer review is so important and why I wish non-peer reviewed papers would quit being reported on. I have to imagine nearly every study on COVID is being done at a quick pace or, at the very least, a quicker pace than normal. This leaves a ton of room for errors and oversights.

More discussion of a "challenge trial" (infecting vaccinated people with live virus) here. This article makes it sound like it's decently likely to happen, and that's apparently something with little or no precedent. We just don't infect people with potentially deadly viruses for which there is no cure in hopes that the vaccine works. The article makes the interesting point that it takes 10s of thousands of people in a trial if you're going to send them out into a socially distancing public and expect that a statistically significant portion of them should have gotten sick. If you do a challenge trial, you could get away with a much smaller sample set.

This vaccine is going to be basically the least tested vaccine you've ever injected yourself with.

I think it's ethical as long as the person being injected gives informed consent to have the injection done. The only problem is I'm not sure it'd be ethical to get the person a placebo and then inject them with the virus, or at the very least it'd be questionably ethical.

Honestly, if the University of Utah was doing trials like this, I would sign up for it. The likelihood of me getting the virus is higher than the likelihood of me not getting it, so I might as well get a vaccine and then get willingly injected with the virus. Worst case, I get sick while under the watchful eye of medical professionals. Best case, the vaccine works and I'm protected. Yes, there are complications that could arise, including an allergic reaction to the vaccine, but I have to imagine the serum in vaccines are all roughly the same and I've never shown a reaction to any of them before.

 

[Danoff]

I think it's ethical as long as the person being injected gives informed consent to have the injection done. The only problem is I'm not sure it'd be ethical to get the person a placebo and then inject them with the virus, or at the very least it'd be questionably ethical.

Honestly, if the University of Utah was doing trials like this, I would sign up for it. The likelihood of me getting the virus is higher than the likelihood of me not getting it, so I might as well get a vaccine and then get willingly injected with the virus. Worst case, I get sick while under the watchful eye of medical professionals. Best case, the vaccine works and I'm protected. Yes, there are complications that could arise, including an allergic reaction to the vaccine, but I have to imagine the serum in vaccines are all roughly the same and I've never shown a reaction to any of them before.

Makes sense to me that some of the volunteers would be in medical professions. Yea you definitely would not be infecting placebo patients with live virus. So I guess there's a chance that your live virus wasn't good for some reason and that nobody would have gotten sick even if your vaccine was bogus because your live virus was no good. There is probably a way to control for that though, by checking antibodies or somesuch. Maybe a blood sample after the live virus is administered to make sure that it's in the blood (that's possible right?).

 

[Rage Racer]

Yes, it is entirely reasonable that three medics in three different incidents, got drunk and fell out of a high window shouting, after criticising Russia's response to COVID-19. It's definitely totally normal for Russians who criticise Russia - and their non-Russian friends and allies - to fall from high places while drunk.

Do you mean that never happens to Russians who DON'T criticize Russia?

There's an "In Soviet Russia" joke in there somewhere but I can't find it.

But ya, it doesn't take a big leap of faith to come to the conclusion that the Russian government is staging "accidents" for those who question its response to various events.

- Yes. Out of the window. All three of them. I don't care if people think it's weird. That's an order!

 

[Famine]

Do you mean that never happens to Russians who DON'T criticize Russia?

I have no idea whether it's common for Russians to get drunk and fall out of hospital windows. What's the normal rate for this?

an staged accident

You think they're staged? Steady on there.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, there are complications that could arise, including an allergic reaction to the vaccine, but I have to imagine the serum in vaccines are all roughly the same and I've never shown a reaction to any of them before.

If we end up with a lottery system for drawing who gets vaccinated first, I wonder if I'd actually want to be at the front of the line or if I'd want to be just a little back such that I can watch to see if there is some kind of reaction to the new vaccine. I'm not sure, I can see an argument for getting it immediately, or volunteering to be a test subject. It seems like there are pros and cons to each situation.

That's what I'll tell myself if I have to wait 100 days for my number to get picked out of the lottery.

 

[strela]

You think they're staged? Steady on there.

Read again. I never said that. As far as I know you believe they're.

 

[Famine]

Read again. I never said that.

I directly quoted your post. Here it is again:

She opposed to repurposing of a building during a meeting and that's like opposing the state's response? And that somehow leaded to an staged accident? This look like a KGB spy movie material.

As far as I know you believe they're.

I stated at the start that they are all accidents, and officially recorded as such. I haven't suggested anything otherwise at any point...

 

[Danoff]

 

[strela]

I directly quoted your post. Here it is again:
I stated at the start that they are all accidents, and officially recorded as such. I haven't suggested anything otherwise at any point...

I must confess... You are good. Wasn't expecting a different outcome anyway.

 

[novcze]

Sweden leaving elder COVID19 patients to die, care worker says

Sweden Refusing Oxygen to Older Patients

... but let's pretend they are all 95 and demented like if that somehow made it justifiable.

 

[McLaren]

That's depressing if true. I've been reading that the WHO's director believes Sweden is the model everyone should consider following.

 

[strela]

After watching some of the Angry Foreigner's videos I have a lot of doubts about Sweden as a model. Certainly wouldn't be very happy if my parents lived there.

 

[novcze]

That's depressing if true. I've been reading that the WHO's director believes Sweden is the model everyone should consider following.

The WHO is hugely incompetent and useless, I watched corona time line overview from Dr. Campbell couple of days ago and he clearly states that "Chinese lack of transparency and lack of warning from the WHO is why we have this pandemic".

 

[eran0004]

Sweden leaving elder COVID19 patients to die, care worker says

Sweden Refusing Oxygen to Older Patients

... but let's pretend they are all 95 and demented like if that somehow made it justifiable.

Fake news. Sweden doesn’t run any hospitals or nursery homes. Hospitals are run by the regions and nursery homes by the municipalities.

This particular news item concerns a document released by the region of Gävleborg where they clarify the routines for dealing with oxygen in palliative care - patients who are so seriously ill that they are most likely not going to survive. In palliative care the focus is to mitigate suffering and make the patient as comfortable as possible at the end of their life. Oxygen therapy requires special training and is generally not a competence that nursery homes have. The exception is some lunge diseases where oxygen therapy can be administered outside the hospital (depending on individual circumstances).

In palliative care, there is a low correlation between hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and dyspnea (shortness of breath), which means that oxygen therapy would not have the desired effect. The dyspnea is often better treated with opioids. So in palliative care, it is not advisable to take the patient to hospital for oxygen treatment as it would likely cause more discomfort. It’s better to stay at the nursery home and administer opioids.

I don’t know why this nurse chose to “blow the whistle”. Perhaps she personally disagrees with the treatment and thinks she knows better, or she wants to stir up some emotions to promote her political career?

That's depressing if true. I've been reading that the WHO's director believes Sweden is the model everyone should consider following.

That’s a totally different story. The model is about what kind of lockdown measures should be taken, not about how the healthcare operates.

Here’s more to read about palliative care of covid 19 patients. It’s in Swedish, but there is a summary in English. https://lakartidningen.se/klinik-oc...rmakologisk-behandling-vid-svar-covid-19/#eng

 

[Biggles]

Sweden leaving elder COVID19 patients to die, care worker says

Sweden Refusing Oxygen to Older Patients

... but let's pretend they are all 95 and demented like if that somehow made it justifiable.

I notice a somewhat weird narrative on how the "socialist Swedish government" only cares about "immigrants" & not about old "native" Swedes ... which reads pretty much like "fake news" to me.

 

[TexRex]

Freedom is power.
Power needs to be used with responsibility.
Therefore some people can't handle freedom.

"Knowledge is power.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Therefore nerds must all die."

Seriously, what is this?

Over here in the U.S. still holding our breath for that 'eXplOsion of Corona" that was headed our way.


I'm just super intrigued at how many people believe this virus is more contagious than the flu, but they also believe 99% of us haven't had it yet.

I'm not going to argue about it, but while we wait for months and months for an explosion that will never happen, it's either "so contagious" and the asymptomatic rate is through the roof, or it's not very contagious, but is deadly.

Covid maps of the U.S. look exactly like population maps. By-state maps follow the same path.
Want to find a "bad coronavirus outbreak"?
Just find a place with more people.

We can't publish news articles about the numbers in the 95% of the U.S. that makes up small towns, because we have 6 deaths in entire counties with 100,000 people.

That is MY county, not even 2 hours from "new York City the bad place"


The amount of people that believe it is justifiable to screw over thousands of people to "try" to save one single life is baffling.

I would NEVER ask that many people to bend over backwards to save me, to put people in a full blown crisis, just to try to save my own ass.

Call it what you want, you've already won Trump another election.
Great job guys.

(He is better than dementia man)

Heh.

Fake news. Sweden doesn’t run any hospitals or nursery homes. Hospitals are run by the regions and nursery homes by the municipalities.

This particular news item concerns a document released by the region of Gävleborg where they clarify the routines for dealing with oxygen in palliative care - patients who are so seriously ill that they are most likely not going to survive. In palliative care the focus is to mitigate suffering and make the patient as comfortable as possible at the end of their life. Oxygen therapy requires special training and is generally not a competence that nursery homes have. The exception is some lunge diseases where oxygen therapy can be administered outside the hospital (depending on individual circumstances).

In palliative care, there is a low correlation between hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and dyspnea (shortness of breath), which means that oxygen therapy would not have the desired effect. The dyspnea is often better treated with opioids. So in palliative care, it is not advisable to take the patient to hospital for oxygen treatment as it would likely cause more discomfort. It’s better to stay at the nursery home and administer opioids.

I don’t know why this nurse chose to “blow the whistle”. Perhaps she personally disagrees with the treatment and thinks she knows better, or she wants to stir up some emotions to promote her political career?

I notice a somewhat weird narrative on how the "socialist Swedish government" only cares about "immigrants" & not about old "native" Swedes ... which reads pretty much like "fake news" to me.

But, but, but...it's a YouTube video. Those are never misleading. Definitely not intentionally so. Plus the "mainstream media" bogeyman was invoked, triggering the woked and cementing the veracity of everything that followed. Everyone knows that the faster you call out MSM, the more truthful you're being, and it was done ten seconds into a nearly 21 minute video from a creator who most definitely is not on Patreon.

 

[novcze]

Fake news. Sweden doesn’t run any hospitals or nursery homes. Hospitals are run by the regions and nursery homes by the municipalities.

This particular news item concerns a document released by the region of Gävleborg where they clarify the routines for dealing with oxygen in palliative care - patients who are so seriously ill that they are most likely not going to survive. In palliative care the focus is to mitigate suffering and make the patient as comfortable as possible at the end of their life. Oxygen therapy requires special training and is generally not a competence that nursery homes have. The exception is some lunge diseases where oxygen therapy can be administered outside the hospital (depending on individual circumstances).

In palliative care, there is a low correlation between hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and dyspnea (shortness of breath), which means that oxygen therapy would not have the desired effect. The dyspnea is often better treated with opioids. So in palliative care, it is not advisable to take the patient to hospital for oxygen treatment as it would likely cause more discomfort. It’s better to stay at the nursery home and administer opioids.

I don’t know why this nurse chose to “blow the whistle”. Perhaps she personally disagrees with the treatment and thinks she knows better, or she wants to stir up some emotions to promote her political career?



That’s a totally different story. The model is about what kind of lockdown measures should be taken, not about how the healthcare operates.

Here’s more to read about palliative care of covid 19 patients. It’s in Swedish, but there is a summary in English. https://lakartidningen.se/klinik-oc...rmakologisk-behandling-vid-svar-covid-19/#eng

Did you watch Dr. Jon Tallinger interview? ... it's not only about Gävleborg document and it's not about people who are already in palliative care, it's about guidelines to treat some covid19 patients only palliatively and not send them to hospital. Of course since it's in Sweden it's hard to validate anything so who knows.

One thing is sure, if somebody tried to release similar guidelines where I live on whatever level, political opposition and people would shred them.

 

[eran0004]

Did you watch Dr. Jon Tallinger interview? ... it's not only about Gävleborg document and it's not about people who are already in palliative care, it's about guidelines to treat some covid19 patients only palliatively and not send them to hospital. Of course since it's in Sweden it's hard to validate anything so who knows.

One thing is sure, if somebody tried to release similar guidelines where I live on whatever level, political opposition and people would shred them.

There are no such guidelines. These guidelines are for palliative care, i.e. what can be done to make the patient feel more comfortable. Opioids are more effective than oxygen, so taking someone who is mortally ill to the hospital for oxygen therapy is no good. They won’t recover from the disease and the therapy would probably not make them more comfortable, rather the opposite.

As for the interview, he only seems to be referring to himself. “I know, I know, I know”. There is no reference to any studies or to consensus among general practitioners. That and the fact that he claims that oxygen is a trivial therapy that doesn’t require any training (“my daughter successfully administered oxygen to herself, and people on Mount Everest do it all the time”) makes me wonder where he got his medical education.

He also claims that a document was “leaked” when it was actually published online from the very beginning. He also forgets to mention the fact that the documents specifically concerns palliative care, it’s not a general guideline for treating elderly patients. It’s guidelines for treating patients who are mortally I’ll.

I’m sure your country have similar guidelines. I’d be very surprised if they didn’t, and if I were you I would be worried if that was the case because if they haven’t thought about palliative care in relation to covid 19 then many patients in your country are in severe risk of agonising deaths. Oxygen seems like a sensible treatment because “obviously when you’re short of breath it’s an indication of lack of oxygen”, but medical evidence doesn’t support that view. Only when there are clear indications of hypoxia, oxygen does have a palliative effect. In other cases it’s useless. Opioids have a clear and proven effect on dyspnea and reduces the anxiety of the patients as well. Oxygen is not available in nursing homes because, contrary to what “the angry foreigner” thinks, it does require special training to prescribe and administer. People who climb Mount Everest are not palliative care patients.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0885392406007251

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304253/

https://www.nwcscnsenate.nhs.uk/files/9814/5684/6563/Oxygen_in_Palliative_Care_FINAL.pdf

https://smw.ch/article/doi/smw.2020.20233

Edit: Dr. Jon Tallinger runs the company TallingerFrändhagen AB that wants to sell oxygen to the government at one million SEK per unit.

https://sveanews.wordpress.com/2020...v-till-stefan-lofven-lat-oss-nu-fa-radda-liv/

Apparently him and his business partner worked around the clock “for the past three weeks” to crate this business proposal, which makes me wonder two things: (1) doesn’t he have any patients to treat? (2) why did they write such a sloppy business proposal to the Prime Minister, without reference to any kind of study or evidence that supports their proposal?

Edit 2: I get that he is upset. But as long as he abstains from providing any kind of evidence for his claims he’s not going to convince me. The fact that he went all-in using populist propaganda strategies rather than finding support in studies makes his credibility virtually zero.

Edit 3: No mention of the The Lancet anywhere. But he does reach out to Pewdiepie, so I guess that’s good enough. /sarcasm

 

[UKMikey]

 

[strela]

Omg! Look at Adele! She's gorgeous!

 

[ULTRAVIOLENZZ]

Why are Russian coronavirus doctors mysteriously falling out of windows?

https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/opin...ng-out-of-windows/ar-BB13IFol?ocid=spartanntp

 

[Touring Mars]

Why are Russian coronavirus doctors mysteriously falling out of windows?

https://www.msn.com/en-ph/news/opin...ng-out-of-windows/ar-BB13IFol?ocid=spartanntp

Check out the last couple of pages of this thread...!

-

As for the UK, I am not convinced that now is the time to start easing lockdown restrictions - I'd be happier if this was happening in 2-3 week's time, but there will come a point where there does have to be a trade off between social activity and transmission rate increases.

As I've said before, the effect this could have on vulnerable people could be quite negative - as people return to something like normal life, the need for vulnerable people to shield from others (which they currently don't have to do because everyone is effectively shielding too) increases, which means there will be a greater disparity between age groups.

 

[novcze]

There are no such guidelines.

It's supposedly internal document for medical staff. I can't validate any of this, so it's his word against yours. Same thing with his investement in oxygen company, your source is valid or is it part of smear campaign?

I’m sure your country have similar guidelines. I’d be very surprised if they didn’t, and if I were you I would be worried if that was the case because if they haven’t thought about palliative care in relation to covid 19 then many patients in your country are in severe risk of agonising deaths.

We are not Sweden, so all Covid19 patients who require hospitalization are treated in hospitals because you can't tell beforehand if Covid19 will be deadly for an individual or not. Well-being of patients is standard, no worries, they don't suffer.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Well-being of patients is standard, no worries, they don't suffer.

As in Sweden. The guidelines for care is to ensure precisely that, as little suffering as possible.
And yes, you can verify. Use Google translate and read it. It might be a little difficult, but it's doable. And much better than just denying the truth because it fits your own image of the world.

 

[strela]

The oldest and the youngest Covid-19 survivor.
A 106 years old grandma


A 16 days old newborn
https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/new...philippines-youngest-covid-19-survivor/story/

 

[eran0004]

It's supposedly internal document for medical staff. I can't validate any of this, so it's his word against yours. Same thing with his investement in oxygen company, your source is valid or is it part of smear campaign?

It’s a public document. https://www.regiongavleborg.se/glob..._palliativ_vard_av_patienter_med_covid-19.pdf

I assume the business proposal it’s valid, because I don’t know why he would launch a smear campaign against himself and promote it on his own Facebook page.

According to his Facebook page he has taken leave without pay from his job and is now living on donations from his followers.

We are not Sweden, so all Covid19 patients who require hospitalization are treated in hospitals because you can't tell beforehand if Covid19 will be deadly for an individual or not. Well-being of patients is standard, no worries, they don't suffer.

How is that different from Sweden?

For reference, here are our national guidelines for prioritising ICU patients. It clearly says that age discrimination is not permitted.

https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/glob.../nationella-prioriteringar-intensivvarden.pdf

Can I see your national guidelines regarding this?

 

[novcze]

How is that different from Sweden?

Nobody here complain about lack of treatment.

I'm not Swede so you can go through the rest of Angry Foreigner sources https://www.angryforeigner.net/news/the-truth-about-swedens-corona-strategy-is-staggering

For reference, here are our national guidelines for prioritising ICU patients. It clearly says that age discrimination is not permitted.

So all criticism is made up?

https://nyheteridag.se/socialstyrelsen-forbereder-sortering-av-manniskor-som-ska-lamnas-att-do/
https://theconversation.com/coronav...ilators-based-on-age-is-discriminatory-136459

Can I see your national guidelines regarding this?

No, because these matters are in competency of doctors and not politicians. But you can see our statistics:

Czech Republic - Total cases/1M pop: 745 Deaths/1M pop: 25 Tests/1M pop: 26,783
Sweden - Total cases/1M pop: 2,438 Deaths/1M pop: 301 Tests/1M pop: 14,704

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Do you at least know if you guys are achieving herd immunity?