Creation vs. Evolution

[Danoff]

if you read it just as it says...no science magnifying glass over the pages...6 literal days of creation

How much have you had to ignore to believe this? All of modern man's best thinking... And what basis do you have to ignore all of modern man's best and brightest? An old book that was written a long time ago after the story had been told and retold a thousand times.

How do you not start asking serious questions of your beliefs when you're faced with so much reason to question? I question beliefs of mine that nobody disagrees with. I wonder if I have anything right at all, even though the world around me doesn't question. How can you not approach things skeptically when we have so many examples of people being brainwashed into obviously incorrect thinking (nazis, terrorists, communists,...). When areas of the world are so obviously in need of objectivity, how can you approach your own existance from such a subjective position?

I'm not saying you should believe that science is right. I'm saying that you should open your mind to other possibilities and learn about those who disagree with you. It will do one of two things... it will either strengthen your beliefs, or prove to you that you were wrong all along. Either of those is a good thing.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

by the way, i dont believe God was the author of evolution (not that we are evolving, devolving/decaying as time progresses) those 6 days you read in genesis 1...if you read it just as it says...no science magnifying glass over the pages...6 literal days of creation

Most sensible Christians accept that the 6 days of creation are a metaphor and not literally 24hour "days"

Creation of Day and Night "Day" 1
Creation of Heaven "Day" 2
Creation of the Earth, the Seas, and the Plants "Day" 3
Creation of the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars "Day" 4
Creation of Fishes and Birds [Beginning of Sexual Reproduction] "Day" 5
Creation of land animals (Cattle, Insects, Reptiles, Man) "Day" 6
No Further Emergence of Life Forms on Earth "Day" 7

Ok first off...day and night is created before the sun...early Genesis writers obviously didn't understand what light is

Plants are created before the Sun ...we all know they need the Sun to grow...

And my favourite is the Sun is created on "Day 4"...how can you have a day without the Sun...a day is the time it takes for the Earth to revolve around the sun...so, no sun...no "Days"

Heres another timeline that is in a bit more detail

Big Bang 15,000 million
Birth of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon 4600 million
Emergence of Life (Pre-cellular Life) 3800 million
Inorganic Release of Trace Amount of Oxygen 3700 million
Origin of Photo-synthetic Bacteria 3200 million
Advent of Oxygen-rich Atmosphere 2000 million
Development of Sexual Reproduction 1100 million
Spread of Jawless Fishes 505 million
First Amphibians 408 million
First Reptiles 360 million
First Dinosaurs and Mammal-like Reptiles; Origin of Mammals 248 million
First Birds 213 million
Australopithecus 4 million
Homo Habilis 2.2 million
Homo Erectus 1.5 million
Homo Sapiens 200 thousand
Modern Humans 35 thousand

 

[Danoff]

And my favourite is the Sun is created on "Day 4"...how can you have a day without the Sun...a day is the time it takes for the Earth to revolve around the sun...so, no sun...no "Days"

Not to mention, no sun - no orbit or heat. Which means that the seas created on Day 3 would be totally frozen.

When were Jupiter's moons created? Day 4 with the Earth's moon? or Day 3 with the creation of Jupiter?

 

[ledhed]

look God did it. Sun ? We dont need no stinkin SUN .I'm God dammit ! I SAY NO SUN . So NO SUN !

 

[Anderton Prime]

Not to mention, no sun - no orbit or heat. Which means that the seas created on Day 3 would be totally frozen.

When were Jupiter's moons created? Day 4 with the Earth's moon? or Day 3 with the creation of Jupiter?

Ah ha ha ha ha ha. So clever, so witty, so downright funny!

Do you realize how rude you're being by turning people's religious beliefs into a joke?

 

[Famine]

I'd count on it.

Do you realise how offensive it is to be condescended to by arrogant "I know everything because God told me" types?

 

[Anderton Prime]

So monkey see monkey do? I thought the whole basis of non-beleivers' philosophy is that you know better than so-called "blind" believers. When you make fun of someone else's beliefs, no matter how ignorant that person may be, you immediately sink to the level of the science equivalent of a religious fanatic.

 

[Sage]

Actually, in all total sincerity, I thought Dan was honestly looking for an answer (and I'd like a straight answer to his questions myself). I won't claim that he wasn't being sarcastic, but they're totally valid questions.

 

[Duke]

So monkey see monkey do? I thought the whole basis of non-beleivers' philosophy is that you know better than so-called "blind" believers. When you make fun of someone else's beliefs, no matter how ignorant that person may be, you immediately sink to the level of the science equivalent of a religious fanatic.

So just because they're religious beliefes, they're immune to criticism?

We've shown very valid rational reasons that Creation is a myth and we've asked valid rational questions that cannot be answered by the literal interpretation that XVII seems to believe. So far he's sailed majestically through them without so much as deviating course by a degree and barely even noting the existence of these questions.

So then how obliged are we to tread carefully about his beliefs?

 

[Delirious]

would i be stoned to death to say that God was the light that lighted everything before the sun was created?

even though weve had some "smart" men with "smart ideas" over the centuries (even though compared to God know absolutely nothing)...call me narrow minded for this too if you want, but i will choose to believe what God's inspired infallible word tells me and not uninspired fallable man

by the way, Max_DC, i was saved when i was 18, went to church as a little kid, did not like it, my parents dont go to church, just my grandmother (she doesnt go to the church i go to)

 

[PS]

would i be stoned to death to say that God was the light that lighted everything before the sun was created?

Maybe in some countries. Depends on what god.

even though weve had some "smart" men with "smart ideas" over the centuries (even though compared to God know absolutely nothing)...call me narrow minded for this too if you want, but i will choose to believe what God's inspired infallible word tells me and not uninspired fallable man

What's the difference between inspiration and a man realizing something? Did god suddenly tell scientists the Earth was round or flat, or did he change it back and forth just to prove someone right or wrong? And how do you know god is communicating with you? Maybe you've just left the earbuds in.

by the way, Max_DC, i was saved when i was 18, went to church as a little kid, did not like it, my parents dont go to church, just my grandmother (she doesnt go to the church i go to)

If you dont mind my asking, what were you "saved" from? And how do you know it was god?

 

[Delirious]

saved from hell, God convicted my heart (not emotionalism...been down that road) i knew i was a sinner, that i sinned against God...and the punishment for sinning against a holy God i realized...i knew i was going to hell...had to do something about it (Accepted the payment Christ paid for me at calvary, paying for the sins i committed)

actually, one of the oldest books of the Bible tells us (Job) about earth
Job 26:7, He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. (written about 2000-1800 BC)

and around 700ish BC this was written

Isaiah 40:22, It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

how did they know that about the earth during that time period?

 

[PS]

saved from hell, God convicted my heart (not emotionalism...been down that road) i knew i was a sinner, that i sinned against God...and the punishment for sinning against a holy God i realized...i knew i was going to hell...had to do something about it (Accepted the payment Christ paid for me at calvary, paying for the sins i committed)

What sins did you commit, and I thought you weren't a ..."believer" back then?

actually, one of the oldest books of the Bible tells us (Job) about earth
Job 26:7, He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. (written about 2000-1800 BC)

During which the Egyptians reign/supremecy was in full swing, which was also supposedly the time of drought, plague, etc.

Isaiah 40:22, It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

how did they know that about the earth during that time period?

The same way we knew about the sun. They looked, they saw. How do you know they fully understood what the Earth was? Simply from measuring the angle of the sun at 2 different points at different times you can calculate the circumference of the Earth, you know.

 

[Sage]

how did they know that about the earth during that time period?

Um, because they were living on it? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking…

[edit after reading PS's post]: Oh, are you talking about how they knew the Earth was round? If so, it's very easy: Boats on the horizon disappear when they're about seven (I *think* it's seven, might be eight or nine) miles away. If you factor in the height of the person and the boat, and use some trig, you can actually figure out a rough approximation of the circumference of the Earth (we did it in Physics class once, though I've totally forgotten how).

 

[TheChemist]

Coming from a Catholic family who's husband is a scientist, as well as being someone who is interested in science, the way I look at it is:

- I believe in God, and the teachings of the church
- I cannot disregard Darwin and his follower's ideas

So in the end, I have to compromise. In my world, God created the world so that Evolution could occur on its own. Call it a collaboration.

 

[Famine]

So monkey see monkey do?

Not at all. I'm using my acquired knowledge in earnest to discuss this subject. Should I not be doing so in case the notion of Evolution, which has Teraquads of data to support it, offends the beliefs and "knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit" of a monotheistic worship-system based on a millenia-old piece of literature written centuries after the events depicted in it which has no data to support it?

Of course not.

danoff's point was valid. If your (generic your, not you) beliefs cause you to take offence at the question then that's an inherent problem with your beliefs and shows a fundamental weakness which can be rent asunder by even the most basic questioning.

 

[Max_DC]

saved from hell, God convicted my heart (not emotionalism...been down that road) i knew i was a sinner, that i sinned against God...and the punishment for sinning against a holy God i realized...i knew i was going to hell...had to do something about it (Accepted the payment Christ paid for me at calvary, paying for the sins i committed)

actually, one of the oldest books of the Bible tells us (Job) about earth
Job 26:7, He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. (written about 2000-1800 BC)

and around 700ish BC this was written

Isaiah 40:22, It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

how did they know that about the earth during that time period?

wow that is hardcore.... I really wonder why you use electronic stuff like computer and videogames... honestly it doesn't really fit into the world you represent, at least what I think.... hmm may I ask what kind of christian community you belong to ?
As far as I know there is a large variety in the States and it would be nice if you could sum up shortly the data of yours... I mean for example here in Germany the normal christian church doesn't literally believe in everything that is in the bible....
so yours should be a special one...

 

[Delirious]

what sins did i commit PS? i was a high school male like you are/will be/ were (whichever you classify as) so you probably do know

i wasnt a believer, but i then saw my sin problem, repented, and believed (there are hours and hours of theological debate on which comes first, faith or repentence...my best answer, at the same time)

DC max, if you just read genesis 1 and read what is written there...without a scientific magnifying glass, how could you not get 7 literal days? where in the Bible itself do you get 7 periods of time? you dont, you get the idea of 7 "periods of time" from science

why should i compromise on God's inspired infalliable word because of humanistic "scientific ideas and thoughts" God is all powerful...would be pretty easy for Him to make everything in 6 days

 

[Famine]

read genesis 1 ... without a scientific magnifying glass

Pow!

Read and accept, not read and think. THAT'S religion right there.

God is all powerful...would be pretty easy for Him to make everything in 6 days

Going to answer danoff and PS's questions on this front any time soon?

 

[Anderton Prime]

So just because they're religious beliefes, they're immune to criticism?

We've shown very valid rational reasons that Creation is a myth and we've asked valid rational questions that cannot be answered by the literal inerpretation that XVII seems to believe. So far he's sailed majestically through them without so much as deviating course by a degree and barely even noting the existence of these questions.

So then how obliged are we to tread carefully about his beliefs?

All I am taking issue with here is danoff's sarcastic and "humourous" tone. He is turning religion into a joke, not merely something he disagrees with. He does this often with numerous topics, and I think, in all my humbleness (!) that it is severely counter-productive, especially in a debate as sensitive as this one is.

In no way am I saying that you cannot attack with full force someone who blatantly disregards and dodges your repeated questions. That is almost expected of you. However, I don't recall anyone who believes in God making fun of science and making obvious fun of those who believe strongly in it. These are difficult questions to answer, and indeed most have no religious answer whatsoever. But I still don't see how that makes it okay for danoff to joke around. It's rude and it accomplishes nothing.

 

[Famine]

even though weve had some "smart" men with "smart ideas" over the centuries (even though compared to God know absolutely nothing)

Looks like he's making fun of science to me.

Hold him down and Eppendorf Tube him to death!

 

[Duke]

These are difficult questions to answer, and indeed most have no religious answer whatsoever. But I still don't see how that makes it okay for danoff to joke around. It's rude and it accomplishes nothing.

In all honesty, when you're confronted with a person who takes this stuff... errr, religious dogma... errr, holy writ at its most bone-literal level, you don't have much choice but to ask bone-literal questions in order to debate it.

Which, you'll note, he never seems to get around to doing in any meaningful way.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I thought the whole basis of non-beleivers' philosophy is that you know better than so-called "blind" believers. When you make fun of someone else's beliefs, no matter how ignorant that person may be, you immediately sink to the level of the science equivalent of a religious fanatic.

Just because I refuse to accept the Christian myth of creation, doesn't make me a non-believer. There are many many other religions out there with their own story of Creation. From the Navaho Indians to the Hindu's and the Aborigine's. I could call you a non-believer for not accepting Quezecotl.

why should i compromise on God's inspired infalliable word because of humanistic "scientific ideas and thoughts" God is all powerful...would be pretty easy for Him to make everything in 6 days

Yes, and then he took the day off...not quite all powerful then

would i be stoned to death to say that God was the light that lighted everything before the sun was created?

err..didn't you guys try to stone us to death for working on a Sunday...
So God is the light...that makes sense, but wait...does he disappear at night?

XVII when you quote all that stuff about God's infallible word, you are aware that the Bible was written by man aren't you?
(Does God find it ironic that you should spell infallible wrong )

 

[Delirious]

that wasnt God writing through me like God wrote through them who wrote the bible

if i took your hand and wrote your name on a wall, who wrote it? (not you)

same concept with inspiration, but this is about evolution vs creation, thats another topic

so yeah, evolution is a theory, not a fact

 

[okoj]

that wasnt God writing through me like God wrote through them who wrote the bible

if i took your hand and wrote your name on a wall, who wrote it? (not you)

same concept with inspiration, but this is about evolution vs creation, thats another topic

so yeah, evolution is a theory, not a fact

Can you confirm which version of the bible was written by God?

Oh and while you're at it explain dinosaurs too...

 

[code_kev]

XVII, no offence, but you don't know that, any crack pot can claim that God spoke to them.

The fact that you will believe some fundie websites, and a book wrote by people about 2 thousand years ago when they actually believed in evil snakes and a giant boat that carried 2 of EVERY animal (the notion of this in it self is an utter joke) OVER some of the greatest scientific minds on subjects such as biology pretty much takes the piss. What next? I can't stand fundies...they will ignore science fact if it doesn't fit in with what they think. A real scientist trys to prove their theories wrong, testing them etc, these fundie scientists just twist science to back up their out of date ideas in the most disgusting ways possible, ignoring findings and twisting facts.

Oh and while you're at it explain dinosaurs too...

Come on, everyone knows the dinosaurs lived about 6000 years ago in the garden of eden! What are you, stupid?

 

[okoj]

Come on, everyone knows the dinosaurs lived about 6000 years ago in the garden of eden! What are you, stupid?

Cheers for clearing that up, though I still like ol' Bill Hicks' theory that it's God messing with our heads

 

[Delirious]

i said it once ill say it again, when there was no sin in the garden of eden, God said it was all very good...there was no bloodshed of any sort

plus i believe that the textus receptus (recieved text) is the inspired text (i believe also that the KJV is the closest we can get to an english translation)

 

[Danoff]

Come on, everyone knows the dinosaurs lived about 6000 years ago in the garden of eden! What are you, stupid?

While I understand where this is coming from, that's counterproductive.

All I am taking issue with here is danoff's sarcastic and "humourous" tone. He is turning religion into a joke, not merely something he disagrees with. He does this often with numerous topics, and I think, in all my humbleness (!) that it is severely counter-productive, especially in a debate as sensitive as this one is.

If the tone of my post was humerous, it's because I don't think that the claims made in genesis are even close to credible. But I really would like to see those questions (1) answered in all honsety (which, as duke pointed out, is not happening).

so yeah, evolution is a theory, not a fact

It is as much fact as the law of gravity or Kirchoff's laws. They're all used on a daily basis by scientists and engineers to develop new technologies that enable fantastic new tools like the computer you use, or the medicine you take.

Indeed, some biologists rely on evolution being correct on a daily basis - and it pans out in the form of new technology. How do you account for this (2)?

even though weve had some "smart" men with "smart ideas" over the centuries (even though compared to God know absolutely nothing)...call me narrow minded for this too if you want, but i will choose to believe what God's inspired infallible word tells me and not uninspired fallable man

Perhaps fallible man has foweled up the story of Jesus and the telling of the bible? Perhaps the men you base your faith in are fallible like the rest of us (3)?

Science performs miracles every day in front of your eyes, yet you choose to ignore it because a book - which gives you no reason to believe it - tells you to. Science has proven through technology that it can predict and understand the world better than our emotions would, and yet you rely on the emotional (perhaps you call it spiritual) to describe your world.

Modern man has invented aircraft, spacecraft, medicine, computers, cars etc. etc. and yet you rely on ancient man's way of understanding our world.

Why? Because it is written in a book.

Well science is written in a book too - lots of them. And other religions are written in books - lots of them too. Why did you pick this one (4)?


Edit: I have posed 4 questions (indicated above). Please answer them and label your answers to each so that I can recognize where you address them. I think that will help this discussion make some progress, thanks.

 

[Delirious]

because my "religion" isnt about about a religion, but a personal relationship (thru Jesus Christ) *gets ready to duck stones*

what will it all matter man's greatest achievements when he dies and faces God on judgment day for an account of his life?