Creation vs. Evolution

[code_kev]

Publishing pro-Creation "research" in pro-Creation religious material, ignoring scientific journals and then presenting it as science is reprehensible.

Too bloody right.

Get out of this one, it takes more then 6 thousand years for a dinosaur to become fossilized, oh and I swear, you start with the "god can do anything" , "he moves in mysterious way", or "It's a test of our faith" stuff, I'll instantly laugh you off the face of the Earth. If dinosaurs lived around the same time as more recent creatures, how come you don't find fossils of them?

While my arguments lack the professionalism if Famines, I can at least try and get my point over, and I can do this, by quoting an EXPERT in the field. Note the use of the word expert, some one with qualifications and experience, with evidence based on findings and research, not guess work.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton.html

Here's a short extract and a small bit about the author:

"The rejection of the validity of fossils and of dating by religious fundamentalists creates a problem for them:

* They cannot deny that hundreds of millions of fossils reside in display cases and drawers around the world. Perhaps some would argue that these specimens - huge skeletons of dinosaurs, blocks from ancient shell beds containing hundreds of specimens, delicately preserved fern fronds -- have been manufactured by scientists to confuse the public. This is clearly ludicrous.
* Otherwise, religious fundamentalists are forced to claim that all the fossils are of the same age, somehow buried in the rocks by some extraordinary catastrophe, perhaps Noah's flood. How exactly they believe that all the dinosaurs, mammoths, early humans, heavily-armored fishes, trilobites, ammonites, and the rest could all live together has never been explained. Nor indeed why the marine creatures were somehow 'drowned' by the flood.
* The rejection of dating by religious fundamentalists is easier for them to make, but harder for them to demonstrate. The fossils occur in regular sequences time after time; radioactive decay happens, and repeated cross testing of radiometric dates confirms their validity.
"

"About the author: Michael Benton, Ph.D., is a vertebrate paleontologist with particular interests in dinosaur origins and fossil history. Currently, he is studying certain basal dinosaurs from the Late Triassic and the quality of different segments of the fossil record. He holds the Chair in Vertebrate Paleontology at the University of Bristol, UK, in addition to chairing the Masters program in paleobiology at the university. He has written some 30 books on dinosaurs and paleobiology, ranging from professional tomes to popular kids' books."

 

[Danoff]

Wrong. Truth is a matter of opinion. Fact is a general consensus between truths.

I don’t think this is just a matter of semantics. I think there is a real philosophical disagreement here. How can Truth be opinion? How can Truth be subjective? Truth is nature. Truth is the undeniable answer to our questions. Truth is absolute. Fact and truth are one in the same. But both Truth and Fact are used casually to mean highly probable because you’d sound like a dork if you said “that’s highly probable” every time instead of “that’s true”.

highly probable dat yo!

Do you believe that there is no real truth? That there is nothing to existence beyond general consensus? That’s a pretty bleak outlook if that’s what you think. If that’s not what you think, if there is some fundamental truth to the universe, if there are answers to our questions about existence and reality – even if we may never know those answers – then that is what I refer to as truth, and why I describe it as unattainable.

The search for facts, not truths.

..and hopefully now after you see why I consider those two to be one in the same. The search for understanding

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I don’t think this is just a matter of semantics. I think there is a real philosophical disagreement here. How can Truth be opinion? How can Truth be subjective? Truth is nature. Truth is the undeniable answer to our questions. Truth is absolute. Fact and truth are one in the same. But both Truth and Fact are used casually to mean highly probable because you’d sound like a dork if you said “that’s highly probable” every time instead of “that’s true”.

highly probable dat yo!

Do you believe that there is no real truth? That there is nothing to existence beyond general consensus? That’s a pretty bleak outlook if that’s what you think. If that’s not what you think, if there is some fundamental truth to the universe, if there are answers to our questions about existence and reality – even if we may never know those answers – then that is what I refer to as truth, and why I describe it as unattainable.

EDIT: Yes I do see why you consider the two to be one in the same. I offer my theory in the links below.

..and hopefully now after you see why I consider those two to be one in the same. The search for understanding

I have to go eat dinner in a few minutes so I don't have time to re-write my opinion on my truth vs. fact theory. However, I can point you to two pages worth of posts where I had a conversation on this very subject.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=55071&page=25&pp=30

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=55071&page=26&pp=30

 

[code_kev]

Ok the childish side of me won...

dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden

Regardless of anything, hard evidence means alot more to me then anything else tbh, while it's all good an well having a faith, basing everything you believe on what one book says, with out a scrap of evidence is abit odd imo. And yes, I'm aware that's why it's called a faith, but still...you can't deny that the evidence is VERY swayed in the favour of what I, and most of the people here seem to think.

 

[PS]

Ok the childish side of me won...





Regardless of anything, hard evidence means alot more to me then anything else tbh, while it's all good an well having a faith, basing everything you believe on what one book says, with out a scrap of evidence is abit odd imo. And yes, I'm aware that's why it's called a faith, but still...

lmao- is that a Tie fighter from starwars in there?!


But honestly XVII, I don't know how you can possibly misconstrue those ..."letters" as evidence. The first and foremost thing all scientists have to remember, is to be unbiased.

 

[code_kev]

Tie Fighter! Gah if the bible had tie fighters and dinosaurs, I might be interested . Nahh it's the gate From JP, the entrance to the park, but the picture I used was awful. Infact...I'm gonna add some tie fighters later I think .

 

[MrktMkr1986]

But honestly XVII, I don't know how you can possibly misconstrue those ..."letters" as evidence. The first and foremost thing all scientists have to remember, is to be unbiased.

That does not mean that all scientists are unbiased. I can think of many examples of biased scientists. Please don't even get me started on that subject.

 

[code_kev]

Yeah, but who are you more likely to trust on topic X? An author of a fundie website, with nothing but opinions, or a scientist with a PHD in topic X who has wrote books on the topic? I'll go for the scientist thank you very much.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Yeah, but who are you more likely to trust on topic X? An author of a fundie website, with nothing but opinions, or a scientist with a PHD in topic X who has wrote books on the topic? I'll go for the scientist thank you very much.

Even if that same scientist is a proponent of eugenics?

Also, how would you know whether or not something is theory, conjecture, fact, or truth?

 

[code_kev]

Well I use common sense too. I don't base everything I think on what scientists say, but for things like the history of the Earth etc, these days they are pretty accurate, if from a good source. I make up my own opinion based on a multitude of things. For example, things like dinosaurs living millions of years ago is fact, this is based research and physical discoveries.

Also, how would you know whether or not something is theory, conjecture, fact, or truth?

Un-answerable question.

And a scientist of eugenics, well ofc not. When I said scientist, I was refering in context of this topic, history of the Earth etc. I probs should have made that clearer.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Well I use common sense too.

Good.

I don't base everything I think on what scientists say, but for things like the history of the Earth etc, these days they are pretty accurate, if from a good source.

I'd say so.

I make up my own opinion based on a multitude of things. For example, things like dinosaurs living millions of years ago is fact, this is based research and physical discoveries.

You're sure it's a fact? Or a truth?

 

[code_kev]

You're sure it's a fact? Or a truth?

LOL. Well, without a time machine I can never be sure, but the proof is so over whelming, you just take it as a given fact. I guess it's the same for alot of things, the proof is so definite that you take it as a fact. If I said that we were living in a virtual world ala Matrix style, could you prove me wrong? No, but it's taking as a given fact that we arn't (the technology needed would be obscene etc etc etc), and yes, that's a TERRIBLE example, but you get my point .

 

[Delirious]

dinosaurs did live in the garden of eden...everything was good as it says, and it was like that before sin entered in its course and curse...no bloodshed...

 

[Duke]

dinosaurs did live in the garden of eden...everything was good as it says, and it was like that before sin entered in its course and curse...no bloodshed...

So why are there no dinosaur fossils that are concurrent with human or modern animal remains?

 

[code_kev]

XVII, are you, a person in the year 2005, trying to tell me that dinosaurs lived about 6000 years ago WITH people running about? The very idea of that is pure comedy. Nothing else. XVII, I respect your beliefs, but not when you type such garbage.

Why are dino fossils found in different time lines (you know, at different depths etc) underground, often millions of years apart? OBVIOUSLY it's God testing us, yes that's right, when we don't have an answer we just make some crap up! We win!

 

[Delirious]

im not making any of http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp this up

 

[Sage]

Oh dear lord (pun not intended)… using that website as an objective source of information is like claiming that a computer manufacturer's Speedmark tests on its own products are unbiased.

 

[Delirious]

so basically i cant use any of the information on that website to prove anything as far as creation is what yer saying?

 

[PS]

so basically i cant use any of the information on that website to prove anything as far as creation is what yer saying?

Exactly. And all that website says, is what the bible tells you, why it tells you it, and explains what the bible says or the bibles beliefs. Nowhere does it say it's actually fact or truth. That website is the most biased, ridiculously unprofessionaly sorry excuse for an explanation I've ever seen, I'm sorry. I just can't take that crap seriously anymore. And for the record, could you provide a DIRECT link to the page you want us to read, as opposed to a page full of links that we don't have to sift through? Thank you. Oh, and how do they "know" all the stuff in that website? Where did they get the information from? What did they study? What did they research? Where are their research papers kept? Where are their sources? Why don't they site any information? Howcome they never give any definite examples? Oh! I know! They made it up! GET OVER THE BIBLE. It was quite obviously a book written to keep small children from misbehaving and asking too many questions, while leading a relatively moral life. It is not fact, there's just no sane, physical, possible way it could be fact. It is a story full of morals, and nothing more. Albeit it is great to live by, but I hardly consitute it as something that deserves recognition for whatever it made up.

 

[Delirious]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v9n1_koongarra.asp so thats made up and the sources mentioned at the bottom of that article are made up?

 

[Pako]

I dont know why the creationist just dont put forth the theory that EVOLUTION was created by God along with everything else and be done with the argument ! like god threw a bomb it made a big bang and things went on and developed out of the mix just like ' O'l God dude planed it ..except for France of course that was a boo boo but hey no Gods perfect .

I believe I have stated this theory, or idea, several times before. Like I said, I believe that evolution is evidence of God's creation. :-)

Happy late Easter, btw.

 

[a6m5]

I believe I have stated this theory, or idea, several times before. Like I said, I believe that evolution is evidence of God's creation. :-)

I think it's entirely possible also. Especially the France thing is dead on. 👍

 

[Duke]

so basically i cant use any of the information on that website to prove anything as far as creation is what yer saying?

Look at it this way: in order for me to prove that the theory of evolution is correct, I want you to go read Darwin's On The Origin Of Species.

Would that work for you? Didn't think so.

 

[Max_DC]

Wow it is really funny to watch people discussing with somebody like XVII... he is a hardcore christian and nobody will ever be able to change his opinions... tell him something based on science and he repeats with a bible quote... that is so funny but even more tragic at the same time... don't waste your time.....

 

[PS]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v9n1_koongarra.asp so thats made up and the sources mentioned at the bottom of that article are made up?

Can you believe I read through all that crap, only to (probably) come with the same conclusion that Famine will; all he does is repeatedly state, for 6 pages, that the ages of the rocks, are meaningless. It depends on what you're looking for pal. When it says an rock is 1270 Ma (million years) old, and then says it's meaningless, that may be meaningless but it sure as hell isn't meaningless when you're trying to prove how old the earth is. And of course the soil around the rocks will be different, and pebbles around there will be different too, that's because the Earth, at different periods of its' life, was an intense ball of flowing magma. It was constantly churning, moving, colliding, for millions of years, creating and recreating billions upon billions of new tons of rock and ore. Which still proves the earth is 1 Billion years + old.

 

[Delirious]

smart man, send AiG an e-mail then and tell em how exactly you refuted one of their technical papers so they can take it down since you seemed to prove it wrong

i will honestly say i am not someone who excels in science...but when i see human life, animal life, everything on this earth and universe...hard to see how you cannot conclude that there was an intelligent designer behind it

by the way, i dont believe God was the author of evolution (not that we are evolving, devolving/decaying as time progresses) those 6 days you read in genesis 1...if you read it just as it says...no science magnifying glass over the pages...6 literal days of creation

 

[Carl.]

And at some point it was hard to see how you cannot conclude that earth is flat, or that the sun is spinning around us.

I guess we're missing the good ole heretic huntin days...

i will honestly say i am not someone who excels in science...

If you put some effort into it, this can be truly an eye-opening experience. If you want to keep a religious approach to it, let's say you're studying god's work more directly, instead of doing it through words transmitted (or distorted) by humans over thousand of years.

 

[Max_DC]

Can you believe I read through all that crap, ........Which still proves the earth is 1 Billion years + old.

smart man, send AiG an e-mail then and tell em how exactly you refuted one of their technical papers ...................
...6 literal days of creation

Wow it is really funny to watch people discussing with somebody like XVII... he is a hardcore christian and nobody will ever be able to change his opinions... tell him something based on science and he repeats with a bible quote... that is so funny but even more tragic at the same time... don't waste your time.....

And it happend again....

But hey ok.... it seems to be fun.... so... I'll give it a try...
Hmm Ok XVII... Evolution is prooved... and humans are only a part of it.... we had luck because our ancestors "learned" to walk and finally to speak ... especially the last one is important... before humans were able to speak our brain was unable to develop in such a huge way...
The bible was written by some a religious "sparkling wines" ( Alta Vista Translate, don't know if that is the correct term ).... well and Jesus was the head of that organisation.... well ok, I don't want to go to deep into that subject, because then
maybe 1001 bible quotes will be your reaction, so let's come back to Evolution :
male human apes and male humans have more in common ( genetically ) as men and women.... fact.... if you watch the developement of a human beginning right after the sperm has entered the female egg you see part of the evolution go by again.... or think about the Mitochondria ( correct in English?) ... well, in fact it is no fun to try to convince XVII... because we already know that it is useless.... can't wait for the answer of you ...

" Hey Max_DC your are completly wrong , because Biblequtoe 1,2,3,4,5 and if you look at Bibleqoute 6,7,8 and also consider www.my-only-source-is-a-2000-year-old-book.com and www.I'm-a-religious-fanatic-with-a-homepage.com you will learn that GOD is my
ultimate answer for everything I have no own answer for, because nobody told me to activate my brain, go to university and learn some sciences "

Ok maybe that sounds offensive... but believe me, that is nor my intension...
I don't know you XVII, but if I may guess you had no chance... your parents are hardcore christians, so are your grandparents and your whole family... since you are a small kid you went to church and to other religious activities in your free time
... and even in school they probably didn't tell you about evolution... so the influence was so strong that you are today, what you are... it's not your fault and that is why my post is not offensive... I'm sure that my sentences are not able to change your "brainwashed" (= absolutly personal opinion ) head, and as long as you don't tell me you will turn everybody on the planet to your beliefs with the use
of guns I think it is fine for everybody... in fact a strong belief is very healthy so you will probably live very long... although I wouldn't call that a .... whatever....

Oh, not to forget, that I study medicine, one of the toughest and longest studies availible, 100% uptodate in sciences about humans... so XVII answer to my post, but don't try to teach me the knowledge of a 20 year old "Full-Time Ministry" guy...

 

[Famine]

" Hey Max_DC your are completly wrong , because Biblequtoe 1,2,3,4,5 and if you look at Bibleqoute 6,7,8 and also consider www.my-only-source-is-a-2000-year-old-book.com and www.I'm-a-religious-fanatic-with-a-homepage.com you will learn that GOD is my
ultimate answer for everything I have no own answer for, because nobody told me to activate my brain, go to university and learn some sciences"

*gets mop and bucket out*

I'd only just cleaned this floor too.

 

[ledhed]

smart man, send AiG an e-mail then and tell em how exactly you refuted one of their technical papers so they can take it down since you seemed to prove it wrong

i will honestly say i am not someone who excels in science...but when i see human life, animal life, everything on this earth and universe...hard to see how you cannot conclude that there was an intelligent designer behind it

by the way, i dont believe God was the author of evolution (not that we are evolving, devolving/decaying as time progresses) those 6 days you read in genesis 1...if you read it just as it says...no science magnifying glass over the pages...6 literal days of creation

And herin lies your problem ..or one of them . There is NO WAY that the world and universe was created in 6 days. That is a fairy tale. Its a false statement. to believe this literaly you must force yourself to discount all creditable evidence to the contrary. You must in fact give your brain an enema and drive all knowlage from it. and when that is accomplished you must excise every single iota of common sense from your mellon. And even THEN given all of the evidence to the contrary you may have to have a lobotamy .