Creation vs. Evolution

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I think the universe is beautiful. Just because it's beautiful doesn't mean it needs a purpose. I don't need to be born with a purpose to have any meaning for my life – I give the meaning to my life in the form of productive work (which enables me to afford toys and helps the greater good – it's a win-win situation!).

Isn't that good enough? I'm blessed to have been born with a conscience – how is that worthless?

As for whether the Big Bang or Creationism is more probable, we've been through that route already… the probability of it happening is so high, there is no reason not to believe it didn't happen.

Let's say nobody ever told you that atoms were composed of neutrons, protons, and electrons, and that electrons were little things that whizzed around the protons and neutrons in a fuzzy could "path". In other words, you pictured atoms as just little tiny balls (I know that's how I pictured them before I learned basic chemistry in middle school). So you go through life thinking atoms are just little balls of matter, then around 40 years old, you're told about them being composed of smaller particles.

Would you believe it?

That's how I see the Big Bang – to people who are willing to accept science as the best method for discovering knowledge, the Big Bang makes perfect sense. To somebody who simply wasn't raised to believe it though, it looks like nonsense, just because it goes against what he/she has learned.

And please don't tell me that because you've actually seen an atom's protons/neutrons/electrons you believe it them, but you can't believe in the Big Bang because you've never seen it – because, I seriously doubt you have ever seen an atom and its subatomic particles, and so can't claim that as proof. I know you've seen models, but I doubt that actual thing.
 
XVII
because the earth is only 6000 years old...God created the world and universe in 6 days...doesnt take that long for a God of unlimited power to do that

do you honestly believe that the universe is ugly?

How is earth only 6000 years old, when the Egyptians were around 4000 years ago, and neanderthals were around 10,000 years ago, and dinosaurs were around 65 MILLION years ago? From that statement alone I can safely say I will void any other "factual" links you may provide.
[edit]

Sage
And please don't tell me that because you've actually seen an atom's protons/neutrons/electrons you believe it them, but you can't believe in the Big Bang because you've never seen it – because, I seriously doubt you have ever seen an atom and its subatomic particles, and so can't claim that as proof. I know you've seen models, but I doubt that actual thing.

A very good point. I don't think on a scale model, large enough to fit into a room, that the electrons would even be visible. They're 1/200th the size of a proton or neutron, and the electron orbits are so varried they could have a radius of 1 millimetre or 1 mile, depending on the element. It's so vast and the sizes are so different from each other it's difficult to comprehend it in scale.
 
The universe is between 11.5 to 20 billion years old . What was God doing before he created the earth ummm 6000 years ago ? Thats quite a gap..unless they were VERY long days you are talking about .
How do you explain this ?
"The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia."
 
simple, dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden and became extinct (interesting fact, the word dinosaur wasnt invented until 1841 by a scientist who was trying to think of a name for "dragon" like creatures) ...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?
 
So you claim Dinosaurs and humans lived side by side..at the same time ? or the ..umm garden of eden existed before humans and had a dino nursery or a habitat for dinosaurs ?
and on wich of the 6 days did they become extinct ? Or did they become extinctified later on in the 6000 years ? your confusing me . dinosaur fossils/ bones have been found all over the Earth..how big was this garden ?
 
Don't get me wrong. I believe in God and intelligent design, but I'm getting confused as well(then again, I'm not too bright).
 
XVII
...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?
More accurate than the Bible.

And I'm not sure what the scientist who named them has to do with this conversation.
 
XVII
simple, dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden and became extinct (interesting fact, the word dinosaur wasnt invented until 1841 by a scientist who was trying to think of a name for "dragon" like creatures) ...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?


Oh come on, can you just, like, try to be somewhat grounded in fact or science? Or something?

I have a question: why can't you be religious and also accept science? It seems to me that they are two completely different domains; forget trying to prove earth and the universe's existance and happenings by religious means, as it's pretty obviously hard to do. It doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. It's just that science is science, and pretty much the truth.
 
Zrow
It's just that science is science, and pretty much the truth.
I agree that science is very important, but our science is far from being "the truth". We don't know everything............ yet.
 
a6m5
I agree that science is very important, but our science is far from being "the truth". We don't know everything............ yet.

Science is fact, not truth. Truth is a personal opinion; it is what you believe to be true as opposed to being fact. Technically, facts are truths, but truths aren't necessarilly facts. We cover this in the Questioning Religion thread, which is just as redundant as this one.

What I would like to know XVII, however, is when did god start creating birds? He mentions nothing of dinosaurs in the bible, and howcome they weren't on Noah's arc? Were they too big? Were they eating the other animals? Did the smell bad? I mean surely, something so massive and vicious must be noteworthy in the bible. Oh, and howcome 4000 years ago, when the Egyptians ruled, why are there no paintings of dinosaurs? ...or did they just suddenly pop up around 100 a.d.? Your story has more missing chunks in it than a libosuction patient.
 
PS
Science is fact, not truth.
Our science has said a lot of things in the past. Sometimes we were wrong, sometimes we misunderstood. Our science is not 100%. Still, it is very important that we keep on searching for new answers IMO.
PS
Truth is a personal opinion; it is what you believe to be true as opposed to being fact.
Truth is a what? :D I meant truth as in something true. I missed what you are saying in the "questioning religion" thread. Sorry!
 
a6m5
Our science has said a lot of things in the past. Sometimes we were wrong, sometimes we misunderstood. Our science is not 100%. Still, it is very important that we keep on searching for new answers IMO.

Truth is a what? :D I meant truth as in something true. I missed what you are saying in the "questioning religion" thread. Sorry!


Um, I had a bit of a difficult time grasping this one myself but;

A truth is something that you belive to be right, correct, true.
For example:

You leave something in the car. You know it's in the car, and you would therefore be speaking the truth if you said it was in the car, as well as staing a fact. However, if someone moved it from the car to your room without you knowing, and you said it was in the car, it would be truth, because you believe it to truly be in the car, but since it is in your room (but you're not aware) it wouldn't be fact. Truth, but not fact.

Now from another side. Since a fact is a truth, but not necessarily a truth to everyone depending on what they've been taught, it is impossible for someone to speak fact and not truth at the same time? See it now? Ask MrktMkr1986 if you still don't get, I had enough of a time explaining that one myself.

Anyway, back on track.
a6m5
Our science has said a lot of things in the past. Sometimes we were wrong, sometimes we misunderstood. Our science is not 100%. Still, it is very important that we keep on searching for new answers IMO.

Truth is a what? :D I meant truth as in something true. I missed what you are saying in the "questioning religion" thread. Sorry!

Yes, science has said many things in the past. Those things were truths though (not facts!). But when we started getting more and more accurate answers, they slowly started becoming more and more factual.

While I agree with everything you've just said, you must also be careful with this truth/fact/knowledge bullcrap, people can twist words very easily.

simple, dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden and became extinct (interesting fact, the word dinosaur wasnt invented until 1841 by a scientist who was trying to think of a name for "dragon" like creatures) ...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?

So you claim Dinosaurs and humans lived side by side..at the same time ? or the ..umm garden of eden existed before humans and had a dino nursery or a habitat for dinosaurs ?
and on wich of the 6 days did they become extinct ? Or did they become extinctified later on in the 6000 years ? your confusing me . dinosaur fossils/ bones have been found all over the Earth..how big was this garden ?

I'm waiting for a response as well. I'd like to know why you distrust carbon dating (which has been used for years), and why Jesus or the Egyptians or the Touregs never mentioned/drew anything regarding dinosaurs. You know, you kind of remind me of my Grade 9 french teacher with that theory. . . Except he was senile.
 
XVII
even if you cannot find any research papers...all the evidence on those sites...doesnt it all refute evolution?

Without properly conducted research, peer-reviewed and independantly tested, all the "evidence" in the world becomes just some made-up stuff some guy thought of to explain something.

I've already refuted every single piece of pseudo-scientific babble on one Christian website. Want me to do three more? I'm busy today, but I can spare some time this evening.


Most present English words weren't "invented" until around 1400AD. Does that mean that nothing we have words for today existed 600 years ago?
 
Ok, PS. I think I understand. I'm watching I Heart Huckabee's right now, so I'll think about it more, later.
 
simple, dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden and became extinct (interesting fact, the word dinosaur wasnt invented until 1841 by a scientist who was trying to think of a name for "dragon" like creatures) ...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?

dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden

Oh dear...when you don't like the truth, make one up! :dunce:

I'm allmost tempted to do a photoshop...
 
XVII
if all that doesnt count for evidence...everything in those sites, every tid-bit of information...nothing will make you guys believe

unless you have faith
Immanuel Kant
I have found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to leave room for faith.
XVII
also, which sounds more far fetched...the idea of the big bang happening, somehow it all came together perfectly to form the solar system and the universe, and everything was just right for human life...for no reason whatsoever

or it all being created by a higher power for a divine reason?
You guys just can't seem to grasp the concept of something really big changing a little bit at a time over a very long period. That's the universe. Given its size and age there is almost no possibility that life hasn't self-generated multiple times under multiple sets of conditions.

Even if something is incredibly rare on an individual basis, when you're looking in an almost-infinitely large haystack for an almost infinitely long time, you can sure find a lot of needles.

It's like Creationists' brains go into overload when they try to understand that. They can't grasp the concepts of almost infinitely huge and almost infinitely old, so they switch over to "God must have done it and we can't understand because he's God".
 
Science is fact, not truth. Truth is a personal opinion;

Woah there buddy.

Science is not fact, it's probable.

Truth is fact, and Truth is unattainable as far as I know.

Beliefs are personal opinion. For example, if you believe science is truth, that's a personal opinion. If you believe religion is truh, that's another personal opinion.

I have a question: why can't you be religious and also accept science? It seems to me that they are two completely different domains

Their goal is one in the same, the search for Truth (not opinion). Science has its domain - the physical world, and religion has its - the spiritual.

But religion also treads on the physical world, which is why people have so much trouble being religious and accepting science. Because they have to selectively believe part of their religion but not all of it to follow both religion and science.
 
danoff
Woah there buddy.

Science is not fact, it's probable.

Truth is fact, and Truth is unattainable as far as I know.

Beliefs are personal opinion. For example, if you believe science is truth, that's a personal opinion. If you believe religion is truh, that's another personal opinion.



Their goal is one in the same, the search for Truth (not opinion). Science has its domain - the physical world, and religion has its - the spiritual.

But religion also treads on the physical world, which is why people have so much trouble being religious and accepting science. Because they have to selectively believe part of their religion but not all of it to follow both religion and science.


Did you read my explanation? Science is neither truth, nor fact, when it comes down to it. Fact is universal, truth is personal, science is ...science. Science is a collaboration of people to try and arrive at a correct answer or conclusion to a particular problem or to correctly understand a concept to be confirmed by many as fact. Ask Brian about, he has a better way with words. It's all semantics...or is it just semasiological?
 
XVII
simple, dinosaurs lived in the garden of eden and became extinct (interesting fact, the word dinosaur wasnt invented until 1841 by a scientist who was trying to think of a name for "dragon" like creatures) ...do you really think carbon dating is accurate?


I was just about to ask the same question. :scared:
 
danoff
Woah there buddy.

Science is not fact, it's probable.

Exactly!

Truth is fact, and Truth is unattainable as far as I know.

Wrong. Truth is a matter of opinion. Fact is a general consensus between truths.

Beliefs are personal opinion. For example, if you believe science is truth, that's a personal opinion. If you believe religion is truh, that's another personal opinion.

Correct.

Their goal is one in the same, the search for Truth (not opinion)

The search for facts, not truths.

Science has its domain - the physical world, and religion has its - the spiritual.

But religion also treads on the physical world, which is why people have so much trouble being religious and accepting science. Because they have to selectively believe part of their religion but not all of it to follow both religion and science.

Precisely.
 
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bible.asp
theres just some of the research papers i found on that site famine...and that section is just on the Bible

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dating.asp and a ton of technical papers on radiometric dating

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp home page...each section contains technical research papers submitted by both AiG and outside sources

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v11/i2/dinosaur.asp one done by AiG on dinosaurs...

need anymore?

heres an interesting quote



Charles Darwin himself realized that it seemed incredible that evolutionary processes had to explain human vision. He said:
'To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.'1


Darwin, Charles. The Origin of Species, J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd, London, 1971, p. 167.

ill admit, im not the smartest man and im not that smart when it comes to science...famine is smarter than me when it comes to science...

but im not dumb enough to say that there isnt a god that could have created everything, plus even if you had 1% of all the information in the universe (quite a lot) the 99% of knowledge you dont know can include the existence of a creator who created everything...
 
I say again:

Famine
Yet all of the lofty titles and degrees of the founding members and touring speakers don't have ONE published article between them as to why the Genesis account is accurate - in whole or in part - in even a halfway reputable, peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Why do you think that is, huh? Why do you think they only publish in like-minded journals for the edification of like-minded individuals and not any disinterested publication which would subject their diatribe to any form of scrutiny?


I checked BIDS ISI for any articles published by anyone associated with any of the three sites you mentioned in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Guess what? None.


Did you care to check on what happens after your quote, by the way? Read on, McDuff. Read on:


Charles Darwin
Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.

From "ON the Origin of Species".

Amazing what selective quotes, gleaned from one-sided websites can do for you.
 
why not peer review it yourself if you are dead set on refuting creation and not have other peers to refute it for you?
 
I did. Someone - who may not have been you, but with similar arguments to yours - pointed me at a website "proving" that the Earth was made for humans.

My post took one and a half hours to type up. danoff reviewed it and agreed (Edit: here it is - and in this thread too!)


Still, that isn't "peer-review". I'm not sure what you think it is.
 
Famine
I did. Someone - who may not have been you, but with similar arguments to yours - pointed me at a website "proving" that the Earth was made for humans.


Where is this website? Do you believe that that is fact?

My post took one and a half hours to type up. danoff reviewed it and agreed.

Danoff and I usually disagree on certain issues. I would like to read this review, where can I find it?

Still, that isn't "peer-review". I'm not sure what you think it is.

Explain it then. I am curious now.
 
XVII
why not peer review it yourself if you are dead set on refuting creation and not have other peers to refute it for you?


You know, Famine, I actually agree with him here :ill:. Why not just create a website you can link to, instead of going through the same insane arguement every time? You could even just link to your posts refuting this idiocy, so you wouldn't have to write anything else. Hell, give me the links and I'll do it myself! It would take 2 seconds on Tripod.
 
MrktMkr1986
Where is this website? Do you believe that that is fact?

Zuh whu huh wht?

Do I believe that the Earth was made for humans?


MrktMkr1986
Danoff and I usually disagree on certain issues. I would like to read this review, where can I find it?

See the edit. Danoff's own additional is two posts later - and pretty funny too.

MrktMkr1986
Explain it then. I am curious now.

"Peer-review" MEANS a review by peers.

When publishing a paper in a scientific journal refuting the evolutionary theory, your peers are those scientists involved in the field of evolutionary theory (you see, science doesn't say "You think xxx, so you're wrong.". It says "You think xxx? Can we see your evidence, methods, results, conclusions, statistical calculations, sample sizes and background theory upon which you base this? Cheers!"). They can then analyse all that stuff I said in parentheses, with their own statistical calculations based on the results offered up, spot logical leaps of faith, bad scientific methods and so on and so forth. In fact they can even go and set up the same experiments and do them in their own lab in the same conditions - if it isn't repeatable remotely, using the paper as a guide, it's likely that it isn't observable locally either (ie "made up"). You can also retrieve referenced papers and see if evidence attributable to them by the authors is actually present or whether, like XVII's quote from Darwin above, it was inferred from only reading part of the text.

I am not a peer - I am a scientist, certainly. But I'm a molecular biologist (with specialties in oncology and cytogenetics), not an evolutionary biologist.

Publishing pro-Creation "research" in pro-Creation religious material, ignoring scientific journals and then presenting it as science is reprehensible.


The fundamental difference between Creation and Evolution is that, if evidence were presented and proven, evolutionary scientists could accept or incorporate creation-based theory. The converse is not true.
 
Famine
Zuh whu huh wht?

Do I believe that the Earth was made for humans?

Other way around -- I wasn't clear. You answered the question anyway.

See the edit. Danoff's own additional is two posts later - and pretty funny too.

I'll check it out after this is posted.

"Peer-review" MEANS a review by peers.

When publishing a paper in a scientific journal refuting the evolutionary theory, your peers are those scientists involved in the field of evolutionary theory (you see, science doesn't say "You think xxx, so you're wrong.". It says "You think xxx? Can we see your evidence, methods, results, conclusions, statistical calculations, sample sizes and background theory upon which you base this? Cheers!"). They can then analyse all that stuff I said in parentheses, with their own statistical calculations based on the results offered up, spot logical leaps of faith, bad scientific methods and so on and so forth. In fact they can even go and set up the same experiments and do them in their own lab in the same conditions - if it isn't repeatable remotely, using the paper as a guide, it's likely that it isn't observable locally either (ie "made up"). You can also retrieve referenced papers and see if evidence attributable to them by the authors is actually present or whether, like XVII's quote from Darwin above, it was inferred from only reading part of the text.


Thank you. 👍

I am not a peer - I am a scientist, certainly. But I'm a molecular biologist (with specialties in oncology and cytogenetics), not an evolutionary biologist.

Sounds complicated. Good thing I kept those shares in Amgen. :sly:

Publishing pro-Creation "research" in pro-Creation religious material, ignoring scientific journals and then presenting it as science is reprehensible.

It is -- and they clearly have their own agenda.
 
I dont know why the creationist just dont put forth the theory that EVOLUTION was created by God along with everything else and be done with the argument ! like god threw a bomb it made a big bang and things went on and developed out of the mix just like ' O'l God dude planed it ..except for France of course that was a boo boo but hey no Gods perfect .
 
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