Creation vs. Evolution

[SuperCobraJet]

That's not belief, that's probability based on evidence.

Not quite. The probability is based on the consistency of past evidence which in turn leads, influences, and conditions you to "believe" the same result will repeat in the future.

 

[Pako]

2000 proteins serving serving as enzymes are needed for cell’s activity. What are the chances of these being formed at random?

Anybody willing to place a bet on these odds?

1 :10x10^39,999

yes 1 followed by 40,000 zeros

So what are you saying?

 

[Danoff]

Not quite. The probability is based on the consistency of past evidence which in turn leads, influences, and conditions you to "believe" the same result will repeat in the future.

I don't "believe" that it will repeat in the future. I don't "believe" that the sun will come up tomorrow. I allow for the possibility that it will not, even though I'm 99.9999999% sure that it will. Based on experience, knowledge of the past, knowledge of the underlying physics, knowledge of what would be necessary for the sun to NOT come up tomorrow - I put a very high probability on the sun coming up. But I do not "believe" it, because I'll admit that it might not happen.

The same way I'll admit that evolution might not be correct.

Allowing for the possibility (however small) that it is false means I don't believe it. End of story. Done. No more discussion.

 

[Famine]

We've gone over this before in this, and other threads. My brain does not require belief in anything to operate. Since yours does, you may find this unusual and indeed even unacceptable, but that's just how it is.

I wish to expand upon this a little more.
What good is it then if its operation does not conclude anything?

FAMINE, you and DANOFF need to go on and admit to having beliefs. It's already been explained why. You can't sell that one, even to us ignant and unbonified at the art of deducement. I don't understand why it is so hard? Oh I forgot I already answered that.

As I said earlier:

My brain does not require belief in anything to operate. Since yours does, you may find this unusual and indeed even unacceptable, but that's just how it is.

Belief is such a strong part of your life that you can't find any way that someone can live without it.

If thats the case Then I get to make your very over used comment of "thats weak".

Funny - the search function returns no matches for that quote and me. Not so much "very over used" as "not used".

This shows me that you don't have conviction in your science. All of your aguments are only good for today. You have accepted that what you believe today could be wrong tomorrow

I don't believe anything today. Nor will I tomorrow.

Which I see as a scientist you would need to have. But for the sake of arguing evolution we all see that you are only as good as your last theory. You have a floating soap box which makes it much harder for you to stand on.

That's fascinating. No really. When I mentioned "post hoc ergo propter hoc" earlier, I really should have added "argumentum ad hominem". Do you honestly have so little response left for the topic that your opponent must become the topic?

2000 proteins serving serving as enzymes are needed for cell’s activity. What are the chances of these being formed at random?

Anybody willing to place a bet on these odds?

yes 1 followed by 40,000 zeros

Mmm. "Chance" and "random" being misused quite heavily in that particular statistic - which, in itself, isn't really relevant. You wouldn't happen to be quoting a Creationist website, would you?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I don't "believe" that it will repeat in the future. I don't "believe" that the sun will come up tomorrow. I allow for the possibility that it will not, even though I'm 99.9999999% sure that it will. Based on experience, knowledge of the past, knowledge of the underlying physics, knowledge of what would be necessary for the sun to NOT come up tomorrow - I put a very high probability on the sun coming up. But I do not "believe" it, because I'll admit that it might not happen.

The same way I'll admit that evolution might not be correct.

Allowing for the possibility (however small) that it is false means I don't believe it. End of story. Done. No more discussion.

Although you may think so, not yet.
In what way do you "allow" for the possibility that it may not.

 

[UnoMOTO]

Funny - the search function returns no matches for that quote and me. Not so much "very over used" as "not used".

If you haven't called anyones argument weak, then I apologize.

I don't believe anything today. Nor will I tomorrow.

This kinda makes it hard to have a real debate then. Wouldn't one the first rules of debate be to believe in what you say...even if you don't.

That's fascinating. No really. When I mentioned "post hoc ergo propter hoc" earlier, I really should have added "argumentum ad hominem". Do you honestly have so little response left for the topic that your opponent must become the topic?

I respect your enthusiam and consider you a formidable opponent. As I am a few weeks new my interest is figuring out where you sit before you tell me where you stand. I don't mean it to sound like I am avoiding the topic. Yes...I am trying to get in your head. As dangerous as that may be.

 

[Danoff]

Although you may think so, not yet.
In what way do you "allow" for the possibility that it may not.

...what?

not considering it 100% truth = allowing for the possibility it is false

 

[Famine]

Yes...I am trying to get in your head.

Make sure you pack a stout stick - it's a wierd place to visit.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

As I said earlier:
Belief is such a strong part of your life that you can't find any way that someone can live without it.:

Beliefs are a strong part of everyones life. As I said before it is also an inescapable part. I wish ya'll would just go on and admit it.

[I don't believe anything today. Nor will I tomorrow.

You left out yesterday. Samething there too?

 

[Famine]

Beliefs are a strong part of everyones life. As I said before it is also an inescapable part.

To you. Hence why I say that you can't accept that it isn't for everyone.

You left out yesterday. Samething there too?

Can't remember. The Langoliers ate it.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

...what?

not considering it 100% truth = allowing for the possibility it is false

Is that your final and complete answer?

 

[Danoff]

Is that your final and complete answer?

Yup.

 

[UnoMOTO]

Now that it is clear that some people don't have to believe in anything or have a belief about something...where do we really go with this debate?

 

[Pako]

Make sure you pack a stout stick - it's a wierd place to visit.

And don't forget a towel.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Yup.

If thats the case then, I submit that your actions are evidence that you "believe" the sun will come up tommorrow. Since you take no action to the contrary I must conclude that you believe it will.

I have a couple questions for you and FAMINE, I may have asked them before but I'm not sure. Are either of you married and if so how long. Also have either of you ever had a loan or mortgage.

 

[Famine]

Now that it is clear that some people don't have to believe in anything or have a belief about something...where do we really go with this debate?

The topic, maybe? Just a thought...

If thats the case then, I submit that your actions are evidence that you "believe" the sun will come up tommorrow. Since you take no action to the contrary I must conclude that you believe it will.

Then again...

The common factor here is you and your belief. As I said earlier, people for whom belief is a strong factor in their lives don't understand how people can live without it - and the fact that you persist in trying to foist it upon us is testament to that. People for whom belief is not a factor don't understand how people can rely so much on belief, but for the most part we just accept it and get on with our lives.

I have a couple questions for you and FAMINE, I may have asked them before but I'm not sure. Are either of you married and if so how long. Also have either of you ever had a loan or mortgage.

Not yet, but soon and yes.

 

[Danoff]

If thats the case then, I submit that your actions are evidence that you "believe" the sun will come up tommorrow. Since you take no action to the contrary I must conclude that you believe it will.

Do you believe that you will not get into a car accident and die on your way home today? Can you tell me with complete certainty that that will not happen? Of course not, none of us can.

So why are you still driving? Because you think the probability is low.

 

[UnoMOTO]

The topic, maybe? Just a thought...

That would seem logical, but after your explination of your belief or believe system I'm not so sure that the facts you often state are going to be very convincing to the believers(creation or evolutionist). You didn't support your argument very well with the idea that its just something we don't understand. All that been said it still is worth the time to hack it out with ya. ON WITH THE SHOW!

 

[Famine]

That would seem logical, but after your explination of your belief or believe system I'm not so sure that the facts you often state are going to be very convincing to the believers(science or evolutionist).

No true scientist believes anything (or, as a deference to those who believe in a theistic system, they don't believe in science - they merely accept that which is demonstrated to be true within accepted boundaries of probability).

You didn't support your argument very well with the idea that its just something we don't understand.

You're quite right - but it's not because you don't understand it. If that was the case I'd try and explain it, at increasing levels of inaccuracy, until I found a level at which you did understand it. The issue is that you can't understand it - as SCJ is now demonstrating - any more than I can understand the concept of God speaking directly to me. It's no indictment of your intelligence, just that you are set up to require something to believe in and I am not.

danoff is doing a cracking job of trying to explain it though...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

The common factor here is you and your belief. As I said earlier, people for whom belief is a strong factor in their lives don't understand how people can live without it - and the fact that you persist in trying to foist it upon us is testament to that. People for whom belief is not a factor don't understand how people can rely so much on belief, but for the most part we just accept it and get on with our lives.

Whoa Famine! Not so fast. This discussion has nothing to do with what I believe, (well maybe a teeny bit) this is about two individuals who said they don't believe in anything or no belief system. To which I replied: not so. At there insistance I am proceeding with proving they do.

At this juncture I think that point has been sufficiently made. If you or DANOFF wish to move on to something else, say the word, and I will do likewise.

Not yet, but soon and yes.

 

[Danoff]

At this juncture I think that point has been sufficiently made.

I refuted it above. You have not responded.

I have a couple questions for you and FAMINE, I may have asked them before but I'm not sure. Are either of you married and if so how long. Also have either of you ever had a loan or mortgage.

I have been married for (stops and thinks) 4 years. I have had a loan. What does this have to do with anything?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Do you believe that you will not get into a car accident and die on your way home today? Can you tell me with complete certainty that that will not happen? Of course not, none of us can.

So why are you still driving? Because you think the probability is low.

No, you believe the probability to be low or you would not drive. Thinking is the evaluative stage, once you take action, you believe it.

 

[Danoff]

No, you believe the probability to be low or you would not drive. Thinking is the evaluative stage, once you take action, you believe it.

WRONG! You take action based on percieved probability. Not a belief (even in the probability). You've shifted your argument now to claim that I believe that I know the probability. I'll answer that one the same way I answered the previous one. I think the probability is high that the probability is high.

Edit: Do you think you know the exact probability of getting into a car accident on your way home? Do you think you know for sure that it is low today? No. You think the probability is high that the probability is high that you're gonna be fine. So you drive home.

Edit2: On a personal note, I'm deathly afraid of flying. Even though I know (that means I think that the probability is high that) the probability of getting into an accident in a plane is lower than getting into a car accident. I do, however, act to avoid flying at great cost. Even though I do not believe that I will die if I fly.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

have been married for (stops and thinks) 4 years. I have had a loan. What does this have to do with anything?

I will attempt to address that now. During the marriage cerimony did you not take vows and by so doing make a public declaration of your future actions. If so, do you mean to tell me, you did not believe in what you were doing.
Likewise when you signed for a loan it was not belief that was involved in declaring you would pay it back.
In both examples under penalty of the applicable laws with know way of knowing the future and how it may affect these decisions.
I'm sorry if you cannot see it, but I submit again your actions are evidence against you that you did indeed "believe".

 

[Famine]

I will attempt to address that now. During the marriage cerimony did you not take vows and by so doing make a public declaration of your future actions. If so, do you mean to tell me, you did not believe in what you were doing.
Likewise when you signed for a loan it was not belief that was involved in declaring you would pay it back.
In both examples under penalty of the applicable laws with know way of knowing the future and how it may affect these decisions.
I'm sorry if you cannot see it, but I submit again your actions are evidence against you that you did indeed "believe".

There are conditions to both - and you enter into the contracts based on judging probabilities of your ability to match your conditions, the other party's ability to match their conditions and the probability of unforeseen circumstances impinging on either.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

WRONG! You take action based on percieved probability. Not a belief (even in the probability). You've shifted your argument now to claim that I believe that I know the probability. I'll answer that one the same way I answered the previous one. I think the probability is high that the probability is high

There is a distinct difference between thinking and believing which for some reason you fail to recognize. If your acting upon your confidence in the probability its the same as saying you believe in it.

dit: Do you think you know the exact probability of getting into a car accident on your way home? Do you think you know for sure that it is low today? No. You think the probability is high that the probability is high that you're gonna be fine. So you drive home..

Edit2: On a personal note, I'm deathly afraid of flying. Even though I know (that means I think that the probability is high that) the probability of getting into an accident in a plane is lower than getting into a car accident. I do, however, act to avoid flying at great cost. Even though I do not believe that I will die if I fly.

This is a conflicting statement. Oh well If you get on the plane and fly you are either saying I believe I can make it or I want to commit suicide.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

There are conditions to both - and you enter into the contracts based on judging probabilities of your ability to match your conditions, the other party's ability to match their conditions and the probability of unforeseen circumstances impinging on either.

My point exactly. Under those circumstances you can only proceed in the "believe" condition since there are too many unknowns present to allow a conclusive decision.
I would also add that such is the case with almost everything in life, hence beliefs are inescapable.
OOPS, sorry for the double post

 

[Famine]

My point exactly. Under those circumstances you can only proceed in the "believe" condition since there are too many unknowns present to allow a conclusive decision.
I would also add that such is the case with almost everything in life, hence beliefs are inescapable.
OOPS, sorry for the double post

Where you say "belief" we say "judgement of probability".

As I said earlier, the fact that you need to believe things prevents you seeing why other people don't. As I also said, the fact that I don't need to believe things prevents me from seeing why you do - but at least we accept that you do and move on.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Where you say "belief" we say "judgement of probability".

As I said earlier, the fact that you need to believe things prevents you seeing why other people don't. As I also said, the fact that I don't need to believe things prevents me from seeing why you do - but at least we accept that you do and move on.

Oh well, I think..er..believe I made my point.
BTW enjoyed the challenging discourse with you guys

 

[UnoMOTO]

I believe that we are probably going in a giant circle. It that a reality. It is also my belief that we are not truely learning about the others belief system. True or false? Or is that only a probability?