Creation vs. Evolution

[sn00pie]

It's a group of Christian archeaologists making finds proving events from the Bible actually happened.

Those people scare me.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

That's true, but here we are making ourselves dislike each other over something that won't be solved until (if you are a Christian you will believe judgement day is coming) (if you are a heathen you will possibly believe one of a number of things will happen, the sun will die out, we will die out as a species etc.). I think I might just drop out of this argument because my view won't change, and I'm not personally educated enough to change yours, nor can I bring the evidence I have to this site regarding proof. You know, movies, DVDs, books etc. If anyone ever feels like it look for a video series titled "Amazing Discoveries". It's a group of Christian archeaologists making finds proving events from the Bible actually happened.

I don't see how we're making ourselves dislike each other? We merely differ in opinion. I don't have any less friendly regard for anyone here who's posted anything that disagrees with me.

You WILL make us dislike you though if you continue to call us heathens if we disagree with you.

 

[Formula1Driver]

I was only being pithy calling it a 'nifty storybook' - by that I mean just what you said - a source of life lessons (which really in the end is just an abstracted formulation of a moral concept). My point is that you can get the same thing from Aesop's Fables, assuming you don't feel a need for the presence of a 'God', as Perfect Balance mentioned.

Maybe next time I go to church I'll bring Aesop's Fables.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Those people scare me.

Because you can't think of ways to prove them wrong and the idea of a Heaven and Hell and higher beings really scares you?

 

[sn00pie]

Because you can't think of ways to prove them wrong and the idea of a Heaven and Hell and higher beings really scares you?

No because I could rebute every single sentence coming out of their mouths instantly with scientific arguments, and their sheer stupidity makes my toes cringe.

Nice reply though, dum dum.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Because you can't think of ways to prove them wrong and the idea of a Heaven and Hell and higher beings really scares you?

Probably not the reason, and I'm betting his statement could be better said with a chuckle.

EDIT: Or that.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Because you can't think of ways to prove them wrong and the idea of a Heaven and Hell and higher beings really scares you?

There's no need to try to prove them wrong. Proving that certain biblical events happened doesn't mean that the bible is RIGHT. Most every major religious text from the mesopotamian region at the time describes a major flood. Yes, there WAS a major flood. We can prove that. What it WASN'T was a flood that covered the earth, nor was it a flood sent by god as a curse on "evil" man.

And as to heaven and hell, we could pose the same question to you. Are you afraid of a universe with NO God, or NO Heaven? I'm not. I'm also not afraid of a universe where one exists, because there isn't any evidence to indicate that there is, nor evidence to indicate that I SHOULD be scared if there were.

 

[Formula1Driver]

No because I could rebute every single sentence coming out of their mouths instantly with scientific arguments, and their sheer stupidity makes my toes cringe.

Nice reply though, dum dum.

Now you are just being a you now what, what is wrong with people trying to prove what they believe in? I think it is a good thing when other people try to disprove what they believe.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

No because I could rebute every single sentence coming out of their mouths instantly with scientific arguments, and their sheer stupidity makes my toes cringe.

Nice reply though, dum dum.

No you dum dum bring me gum gum! Sorry I couldn't resist, it's a funny part of the movie "Night at the Museum". By the way, please don't make this about personal insults.

 

[sn00pie]

No you dum dum bring me gum gum! Sorry I couldn't resist, it's a funny part of the movie "Night at the Museum". By the way, please don't make this about personal insults.

Then don't insult my intelligence with your offensive religious fanaticism.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Then don't insult my intelligence with your offensive religious fanaticisms.

Why does everyone mis-interpret what I say? I never mean to insult anyone- ever. But I could say that your desperation to disprove my religious beliefs is just as if not more insulting. Saying I'm a blind believer and that kind of stuff.

 

[Pako]

The Holiness Code in Leviticus contains far too many to list. In fact, it's the only case of an explicit condemnation of homosexuality in the bible. It ALSO says the following:

Do not eat shellfish
Do not have sex with your wife if she is on her period
Do not masturbate
You may own slaves if they are "heathens"...

...and many other fun and exciting things which I shall leave you to discover on your own, most of which concern Jewish worship rites that any modern Christian would consider (a) archaic (b) non-applicable, or (c) heretical.

The penalty for even the most minor of these infractions was, in most cases, death.

Do you know why all the priests and pharisees hated Jesus and wanted him crucified?

 

[Famine]

What on Earth do you mean? Aren't I allowed to express my position? I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what my position on the topic is.

Read the thread before trying to contribute.

Your "contributions" between the post I'm quoting and this post have all been covered at length in here. If you can't be bothered to read it all, don't expect to have your "contributions" taken seriously.

 

[Sureboss]

Because you can read which parts are made up by humans, and which parts God himself has instructed us on.

Even though it was all written by Humans?

It's a group of Christian archeaologists making finds proving events from the Bible actually happened.

Most people accept that many of the events in the bible happened. But that's not at all important, it's how you think they happened is important.

 

[Alfaholic]

Then don't insult my intelligence with your offensive religious fanaticism.

Did you tell him to try to be argumentative just so you'd have more ammunition to throw insults and overstatements back at him?

 

[Joey D]

It's a group of Christian archeaologists making finds proving events from the Bible actually happened.

Real archaeologist do not take biblical archaeologist seriously. They have poor methods and tend to ignore anything that doesn't support their view. Archaeologist are supposed to go into an excavation with an open mind. Biblical archaeologist want to only find artefacts that relate to the time period they are studying and tend to ignore or just quickly glance over things they find they deem less important, thus in the process destroying the database.

As someone who hopes to be an archaeologist one day I find these people to contribute nothing to my future career and I'm surprised they continue to get permission to excavate areas.

 

[Pako]

Real archaeologist do not take biblical archaeologist seriously. They have poor methods and tend to ignore anything that doesn't support their view. Archaeologist are supposed to go into an excavation with an open mind. Biblical archaeologist want to only find artefacts that relate to the time period they are studying and tend to ignore or just quickly glance over things they find they deem less important, thus in the process destroying the database.

As someone who hopes to be an archaeologist one day I find these people to contribute nothing to my future career and I'm surprised they continue to get permission to excavate areas.

Are these facts you pulled out of Archeology Today or is this your opinion?

 

[Joey D]

Are these facts you pulled out of Archeology Today or is this your opinion?

What is Archaeology today?

And this is what I have learned from various professors, textbooks, and other academic sources. Yes it is there opinion and I agree with it, but if the academic community in the field does not take it seriously I can not see how it holds any merit. Think of it this way, I have my beliefs about aliens but since there is no academic merit it to it I can't see it ever being taken seriously.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Do you know why all the priests and pharisees hated Jesus and wanted him crucified?

Yes - he threatened their financial and rhetorical stranglehold over the Israelite populace. As it turns out, the world has room for both Christianity and Judaism, so it seems a moot point now.

I understand that most calm-headed Christians believe that these laws are no longer applicable to modern Christianity. I simply find it amusing when those same Christians (not you in particular - your views usually seem to be carefully thought out, though I may disagree with them) often use Old Testament citations to argue certain points.

And, to support Joey - Archaeology is a part of my field of study as well, along with P&R, so I can back up his claim with regard to biblical archaeology. Any 'archaeologist' who takes a historical text at face-value then attempts to prove its claims without regard to context and without critical evaluation of the text is no archaeologist at all.

 

[Pako]

Yes - he threatened their financial and rhetorical stranglehold over the Israelite populace. As it turns out, the world has room for both Christianity and Judaism, so it seems a moot point now.

I understand that most calm-headed Christians believe that these laws are no longer applicable to modern Christianity. I simply find it amusing when those same Christians (not you in particular - your views usually seem to be carefully thought out, though I may disagree with them) often use Old Testament citations to argue certain points.

And, to support Joey - Archaeology is a part of my field of study as well, along with P&R, so I can back up his claim with regard to biblical archaeology. Any 'archaeologist' who takes a historical text at face-value then attempts to prove its claims without regard to context and without critical evaluation of the text is no archaeologist at all.

That's correct. An example of this would be the old law (Old Testament) said to keep the Sabbath day holy. They had specific laws on not working, not walking more than certain distances, not cooking, ect. Jesus challenged the the teachers of the law asking them if they would help a fellow man or leave him to die on the Sabbath. The old law was to be kept at all costs, even at the cost of a mans life, but Jesus taught a much different standard. In a nut shell, Jesus said you didn't need to follow all those old laws to receive God's grace, that it was a gift ready for the taking. All you needed to do was to believe in Him (Jesus/God). As you stated, this would threaten to remove the power from the priests and pharisees. Jesus also proclaimed to be the Messiah, Son of God, part of the God head. This was blasphemy in their eyes. They didn't believe that this man could be the messiah they had been waiting for. If you believe Jesus' story, you would have no doubt but to see Christ as the Messiah.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

That's correct. An example of this would be the old law (Old Testament) said to keep the Sabbath day holy. They had specific laws on not working, not walking more than certain distances, not cooking, ect. Jesus challenged the the teachers of the law asking them if they would help a fellow man or leave him to die on the Sabbath. The old law was to be kept at all costs, even at the cost of a mans life, but Jesus taught a much different standard. In a nut shell, Jesus said you didn't need to follow all those old laws to receive God's grace, that it was a gift ready for the taking. All you needed to do was to believe in Him (Jesus/God). As you stated, this would threaten to remove the power from the priests and pharisees. Jesus also proclaimed to be the Messiah, Son of God, part of the God head. This was blasphemy in their eyes. They didn't believe that this man could be the messiah they had been waiting for. If you believe Jesus' story, you would have no doubt but to see Christ as the Messiah.

Well ... yes ... if you believed Jesus' story portraying himself as the messiah ... yes, you would have no doubt that he is the messiah ... seems reflexive

That said, many other historical figures have challenged and overturned institutionalized exploitation without claiming to be divine beings. I (mostly) respect Jesus as a man; I don't believe him to be divine.

 

[Danoff]

That's correct. An example of this would be the old law (Old Testament) said to keep the Sabbath day holy. They had specific laws on not working, not walking more than certain distances, not cooking, ect. Jesus challenged the the teachers of the law asking them if they would help a fellow man or leave him to die on the Sabbath. The old law was to be kept at all costs, even at the cost of a mans life, but Jesus taught a much different standard. In a nut shell, Jesus said you didn't need to follow all those old laws to receive God's grace, that it was a gift ready for the taking. All you needed to do was to believe in Him (Jesus/God).

So we toss out one of the ten commandments then, which of the others shall we toss out due to inconvenience? Did Jesus also say that you could steal if it meant saving a man's life? How about dishonoring your mother and father? How about bearing false witness? or killing?

Are all of the commandments subject to individual circumstances? How are you to know which ones? How can you use any instructions (such as, man shall not lie with man) from the OT if Jesus has called the whole thing into question and/or changed the contract with God?

 

[Pako]

You should read up on it... The New Testament would be a good place to start.

Try to read it with an open mind, unlike the archaeologists that Joey described.

 

[Danoff]

You should read up on it... The New Testament would be a good place to start.

Try to read it with an open mind, unlike the archaeologists that Joey described.

Allow me to rephrase my previous post.

So we toss out one of the ten commandments then, we toss out others due to inconvenience as well. Apparently you could steal if it meant saving a man's life, or dishonor your mother and father, or about bear false witness, or kill.

All of the commandments must be subject to individual circumstances if one is. You can't use any instructions (such as, man shall not lie with man) from the OT if Jesus has called the whole thing into question and/or changed the contract with God.

 

[Joey D]

You should read up on it... The New Testament would be a good place to start.

Try to read it with an open mind, unlike the archaeologists that Joey described.

Most archaeologist do look at the Bible as a document and will set out to see if something is there or not. I should have made a distinction between those archaeologist that excavate areas from the bible and those who do biblical archaeology. After reading my former statements I realise I didn't make it clear and I do apologise for that.

An archaeologist will excavate an area no matter what the historical importance is, if during their time excavating they prove a Bible story then so be it, they not it in their report and publish it using the artefact database they uncovered.

Biblical archaeologist go in with preconceived notions and ignore anything that does not pertain to the Bible or will make foolish statements (at least scientifically) that God placed false artefacts their in order to test their faith. Granted there are different levels of people that do this and there are some people that will label themselves biblical archaeologist incorrectly when they are actually real archaeologist that just happen to know about the time period of the Bible.

It is confusing and I was the first time I heard this and I can't say for certain this is the "for sure" way it is. It is how I have been taught by my professors who I have all the respect in the world for.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Most archaeologist do look at the Bible as a document and will set out to see if something is there or not. I should have made a distinction between those archaeologist that excavate areas from the bible and those who do biblical archaeology. After reading my former statements I realise I didn't make it clear and I do apologise for that.

An archaeologist will excavate an area no matter what the historical importance is, if during their time excavating they prove a Bible story then so be it, they not it in their report and publish it using the artefact database they uncovered.

Biblical archaeologist go in with preconceived notions and ignore anything that does not pertain to the Bible or will make foolish statements (at least scientifically) that God placed false artefacts their in order to test their faith. Granted there are different levels of people that do this and there are some people that will label themselves biblical archaeologist incorrectly when they are actually real archaeologist that just happen to know about the time period of the Bible.

It is confusing and I was the first time I heard this and I can't say for certain this is the "for sure" way it is. It is how I have been taught by my professors who I have all the respect in the world for.

What you describe as a "Biblical Archaeologist" is someone I have never seen. Every man that researches the Bible and tries to go and prove the events were real is normally a Christian and he goes in as a historian with a second motive. What's wrong with that? Normally he come up with proof too, so yes the events in the Bible almost certainly happened, but as CraftyLandShark said I think it was, how you interpret those events is up you.

 

[Joey D]

What you describe as a "Biblical Archaeologist" is someone I have never seen. Every man that researches the Bible and tries to go and prove the events were real is normally a Christian and he goes in as a historian with a second motive. What's wrong with that? Normally he come up with proof too, so yes the events in the Bible almost certainly happened, but as CraftyLandShark said I think it was, how you interpret those events is up you.

Do you understand archaeology? Most of those people neglect anything other then Biblical finds in their reports as well as their database. And with archaeology you rarely get proof of anything so I don't really know what a biblical scholar would gain from it other then a sketchy database with poorly drawn conclusions.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Do you understand archaeology? Most of those people neglect anything other then Biblical finds in their reports as well as their database. And with archaeology you rarely get proof of anything so I don't really know what a biblical scholar would gain from it other then a sketchy database with poorly drawn conclusions.

That's a very sad analogy on your behalf. Anything they find is normally from the Biblical era anyway so they include it of course. What you think they just destroy an artefact that's thousands of years old because it doesn't fit with their search? As if.

And just an example here: They found what they believed to be Noah's Ark a while back, the boat was seriously eroded naturally but was of the exact length described in the Bible, in the exact part of the world it should have been but was on the top of a mountain and could have only been placed there if there was a world flood as described in the Bible. It also dated to the correct time period, and this is one of the least provable finds they've made, all their others are far more convincing.

 

[Joey D]

That's a very sad analogy on your behalf. Anything they find is normally from the Biblical era anyway so they include it of course. What you think they just destroy an artefact that's thousands of years old because it doesn't fit with their search? As if.

They don't destroy them, they just neglect them. A proper excavation must include every single thing, from the pop bottle and the chips bag that is 2 weeks old to the 3,000 year old pot shard. Archaeology by definition is destruction since when you are finished there is a large hole in the ground and no way to figure out what went where again...unless it's documented to a T.

**Comment removed because after thinking about it, it was in bad taste. My apologies and a poor judgment on my part.**

And just an example here: They found what they believed to be Noah's Ark a while back, the boat was seriously eroded naturally but was of the exact length described in the Bible, in the exact part of the world it should have been but was on the top of a mountain and could have only been placed there if there was a world flood as described in the Bible. It also dated to the correct time period, and this is one of the least provable finds they've made, all their others are far more convincing.

I'm curious where did you hear this from? If you even mention Bob Cornuke I will laugh at you. No one takes that guy seriously. Also I would like to see when and where they have done the testing on this. If you bring up Ron Wyatt I will laugh at you as well. These people are nothing more then pseudoarchaeologist.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

They don't destroy them, they just neglect them. A proper excavation must include every single thing, from the pop bottle and the chips bag that is 2 weeks old to the 3,000 year old pot shard. Archaeology by definition is destruction since when you are finished there is a large hole in the ground and no way to figure out what went where again...unless it's documented to a T.

**Comment removed because after thinking about it, it was in bad taste. My apologies and a poor judgment on my part.**



I'm curious where did you hear this from? If you even mention Bob Cornuke I will laugh at you. No one takes that guy seriously. Also I would like to see when and where they have done the testing on this. If you bring up Ron Wyatt I will laugh at you as well. These people are nothing more then pseudoarchaeologist.

It was all in a video series made primarily by Jonathan Gray, he is an international explorer, archaeologist, and author. The series was called Suprising Discoveries.