Creation vs. Evolution

[Touring Mars]

Who said the earth is 6,000 years old? Where does it say in the Bible that the earth is only 6,000 years old? This is adopted by 'Young Earth Creationist' that take the Bible very literally. This has also been discussed at length in this thread, in Peter 3:8 the Bible says that a day to God is LIKE a thousand years. Pretty ambiguous. Just curious who takes the Young Earth idea seriously? And if so, what of the undeniable scientific evidence that we have that supports a much, much, older earth?

👍 I have to say that it refreshing to hear someone from a religious perspective suggesting that Young Earth Creationism has no validity. Belief in God and a strong appreciation of the true nature of the Bible obviously doesn't make one a Young Earth Creationist by default. Similarly, acceptance of Evolution as a fundamental force of nature doesn't make you an atheist, either. In a world that is largely populated by people of a religious persuasion, the best an evolutionist can hope for is to emphasize this point - that evolution is not incompatible with religious belief by default.

 

[RecklesAbandon2]

If that's accurate, I've got a few questions:
Who is the seer?
How can you trust his vision?
How can the flawed mind of a mortal experience time the way God does?

correct me if I'm wrong, the bible just might say who the seer is.
And I think you'll find the answer to the third question by asking, "could a god porwerful enough to create this massive unvirse I'm in enable me to understand it"? you think you understand more about this universe on a regular basis , yes?
The 2nd question, however I can't help you with, Except that you accept other ancient historic documents as fact, without question. So why not this?
anybody have the original?

 

[Sureboss]

Yes, "without question"....

 

[Alfaholic]

...you accept other ancient historic documents as fact, without question. So why not this?

That is completely incorrect. It implies that the Bible gets special treatment from those who question its accuracy. In fact, for those who find the story of creation unconvincing, you will find that this is because they read it just like they would any other document, and will question it until they are satisfied, one way or another. To accept any text without question requires faith. Faith is a characteristic more common to religeous believers than sceptics. You yourself have already confirmed that you realise that scientists always question everything, including their own answers and theories, when you said this:

I have trouble believing scientists that continually correct themselves and change their standpoint. (see, brontosaurous, sun revolving around earth, earth being center of universe, flat earth, etc, etc, etc, etc.)

It's a bit like this:

Dad: "Son, did you eat your sister's chocolate birthday cake?"
Son: "No."
Dad with faith: "OK. It must have been God then."
Sceptical dad: "OK, so why is there chocolate around your mouth?"

 

[Joey D]

The 2nd question, however I can't help you with, Except that you accept other ancient historic documents as fact, without question. So why not this?
anybody have the original?

As someone who is studying archaeology I can tell you right now that we rarely, if ever, accept ancient documents as fact. We use them to get an idea of where we should start looking for data but we never say "oh Homer wrote the Odyssey saying that Odysseus went through the River Styx so it must be true".

 

[Touring Mars]

Good point - atleast the New Testament does contain some real history of genuine interest/worth. As the Church of Scientology shows, however, it is possible to write a book about anything and expect people to believe it.

 

[wfooshee]

*Peeks out from hiding place*

Book of Mormon?

*Ducks back into hiding*

 

[CraftyLandShark]

*Peeks out from hiding place*

Book of Mormon?

*Ducks back into hiding*

Seriously though, it's disturbing. Parts of the most essential claims of these two religions in particular (scientology and mormonism) can be concretely disproven, yet throngs of people continue to believe and practice them.

Here's a good example in the case of Mormonism. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, so if anyone can correct anything I have wrong, please do so. <following paragraph wholly edited for factual correctness>

Joseph Smith himself attempted to pass off several papyrus documents as original ancient copies of the Book of Abraham, considered among the most sacred Mormon texts. These papyri were considered lost until 1960 when they surfaced in an estate auction. They were translated by modern Egyptian scholars and revealed to detail minor Egyptian funerary rights and contained no mention of anything remotely similar to Smith's claims.

No need even to begin to address specifically disprovable tenets of Scientology... the great and evil Alien Overlord, Xenu, might be displeased

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I'm all for creation, it's what I beleive to be true, as I'm a Baptist Christian.

 

[Famine]

I'm all for creation, it's what I beleive to be true, as I'm a Baptist Christian.

5,438 posts in this thread, and you come up with a one-line gem like that?

Did you bother reading any of this thread?

 

[Duke]

Wait till you see his take on homosexuality...

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

5,438 posts in this thread, and you come up with a one-line gem like that?

Did you bother reading any of this thread?

What on Earth do you mean? Aren't I allowed to express my position? I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just saying what my position on the topic is.

 

[Joey D]

But why do you believe it? There is always more to an opinion then a one liner.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

But why do you believe it? There is always more to an opinion then a one liner.

Meh, it's just me, and the religious upbringing. Not everyone is christian and I accept that, but I fully and truly believe in the Bible and God. It's just my belief, not an opinion.

 

[Joey D]

Meh, it's just me, and the religious upbringing. Not everyone is christian and I accept that, but I fully and truly believe in the Bible and God. It's just my belief, not an opinion.

And that's fine, there are a lot of people that believe that way. But do you really just believe whatever a book tells you? Have you ever explored other options? It doesn't even have to be evolution. I mean if you've looked around and learned about other ideas on how we came to be and you've ended up settling on the story that a supreme being "made you" then that's fine, but I do have to question people who just accept things under blind faith.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I watched a DVD just the other night coincidentally, talking about creation vs evolution (a small part of it), and science itself says that life can only be created by life. If we were created by a natural cause, then what created what was there before us, and before that and before that? It can't just "have always been" in this universe. Something had to be the original creator, and I believe that was God. Of course, I never needed proof as some of it is blind faith, but the proof is always there when someone looks hard enough, and from what I've seen it always supports christianity.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Disclaimer: none of this is a personal attack in any way, and shouldn't be taken as such.

I said this earlier in the thread, but it stands repeating here. Even if you assume that there MUST be a higher being that presages humanity/life/the universe, why does that being necessarily become directly responsible for our creation, and what makes him/her/it infallable? Wouldn't it just be the case that said being is simply a form of life more advanced than us? That argument also brings to light one of the oldest logical problems with the existence of God, when one assumes that there must be a "beginning" - who created God? Who created the entity that created God? It goes on and on ad infinitum. That very concept of infinity is a large part of the reason why man felt the need to have a "God" before he understood science - it helped to explain the "abyss".

Also, out of curiosity, what is it about Christianity (without quoting blind faith or scripture) that makes it any more inherently correct than, say, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Paganism, or some obscure sect of a defunct religion only practiced by three people in Papua-New Guinea?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Disclaimer: none of this is a personal attack in any way, and shouldn't be taken as such.

I said this earlier in the thread, but it stands repeating here. Even if you assume that there MUST be a higher being that presages humanity/life/the universe, why does that being necessarily become directly responsible for our creation, and what makes him/her/it infallable? Wouldn't it just be the case that said being is simply a form of life more advanced than us? That argument also brings to light one of the oldest logical problems with the existence of God, when one assumes that there must be a "beginning" - who created God? Who created the entity that created God? It goes on and on ad infinitum. That very concept of infinity is a large part of the reason why man felt the need to have a "God" before he understood science - it helped to explain the "abyss".

Also, out of curiosity, what is it about Christianity (without quoting blind faith or scripture) that makes it any more inherently correct than, say, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, Paganism, or some obscure sect of a defunct religion only practiced by three people in Papua-New Guinea?

Look, to argue the difference between religions is a whole different kettle of fish. The reason we assume God is our creator is because in the beginning of humanity he told us so. You'd have to read the Bible, go to church to fully appreciate what's going on so I won't even try here in this thread. I can't remember how to quote it, but basically put God is all eternity, this entire universe was created by him, and everything we know is his work.

 

[sn00pie]

Look, to argue the difference between religions is a whole different kettle of fish. The reason we assume God is our creator is because in the beginning of humanity he told us so. You'd have to read the Bible, go to church to fully appreciate what's going on so I won't even try here in this thread. I can't remember how to quote it, but basically put God is all eternity, this entire universe was created by him, and everything we know is his work.

BOOOORING.

At least try to be argumentative.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

The reason we assume God is our creator is because in the beginning of humanity he told us so. You'd have to read the Bible, go to church to fully appreciate what's going on so I won't even try here in this thread. I can't remember how to quote it, but basically put God is all eternity, this entire universe was created by him, and everything we know is his work.

:shrugs: I guess I didn't get the memo.

And, I have an EXTREMELY strong command of the bible. If you want to argue this scripturally, I'm more than capable of doing so, but I say again - I do not now, and never will understand the mentality that is content to rest the answers to such important fundamental questions of existence on faith in a historically dilluted text with no more defense of it than "the bible says so; it must be true", and that answers the question "how do you know it's true" with "because it says so."

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

:shrugs: I guess I didn't get the memo.

And, I have an EXTREMELY strong command of the bible. If you want to argue this scripturally, I'm more than capable of doing so, but I say again - I do not now, and never will understand the mentality that is content to rest the answers to such important fundamental questions of existence on faith in a historically dilluted text with no more defense of it than "the bible says so; it must be true", and that answers the question "how do you know it's true" with "because it says so."

Then I feel sorry for you, but give me one instance in the Bible where it describes something we should/shouldn't do and it's wrong. Most modern law today is based on the Ten Commandments.

 

[Kylehnat]

science itself says that life can only be created by life

Where does it say that? Seriously, where? Please tell me where.

The reason we assume God is our creator is because in the beginning of humanity he told us so.

I don't care if he is God, that bum on the street corner isn't getting my change.

 

[Joey D]

Most modern law today is based on the Ten Commandments.

Or the Code of Hammurabi.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

Then I feel sorry for you, but give me one instance in the Bible where it describes something we should/shouldn't do and it's wrong. Most modern law today is based on the Ten Commandments.

The Holiness Code in Leviticus contains far too many to list. In fact, it's the only case of an explicit condemnation of homosexuality in the bible. It ALSO says the following:

Do not eat shellfish
Do not have sex with your wife if she is on her period
Do not masturbate
You may own slaves if they are "heathens"...

...and many other fun and exciting things which I shall leave you to discover on your own, most of which concern Jewish worship rites that any modern Christian would consider (a) archaic (b) non-applicable, or (c) heretical.

The penalty for even the most minor of these infractions was, in most cases, death.

 

[Kylehnat]

I can't tell you how many doves I have had to sacrifice for, um, well...

 

[Sage]

Then I feel sorry for you, but give me one instance in the Bible where it describes something we should/shouldn't do and it's wrong. Most modern law today is based on the Ten Commandments.

Oh dear. Have you not read Deuteronomy or Leviticus? Here&#8217;s just one pleasant excerpt:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

 

[sn00pie]

Then I feel sorry for you, but give me one instance in the Bible where it describes something we should/shouldn't do and it's wrong. Most modern law today is based on the Ten Commandments.

BOOOORING.

In fact. Modern law is "based" upon common sense.

Oh dear. Have you not read Deuteronomy or Leviticus? Here&#8217;s just one pleasant excerpt:

Deuteronomy 21:18
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.

Story of my life...

 

[Joey D]

BOOOORING.

In fact. Modern law is "based" upon common sense.

Not to mention back in the time when we were hunters and gatherers traveling in small bands. If you stole you hurt the band and needed to be punished, same if you killed another member and so on. I think a lot of our laws as well as morality came from cultural evolution.

 

[Formula1Driver]

If you guys are talking about the Old Testament that does not apply to all Christians or Jews. I am a Roman Catholic and I follow Jesus' teachings of loving one another and accepting one another, not the Old Testament where the penalty for even minor infractions was death, like said earlier.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Where does it say that? Seriously, where? Please tell me where.

Umm science books, it's called the principle of biogenesis.