Creation vs. Evolution

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*raises hand* I've got a question for Evolutionists: Haven't human beings utterly disrupted the evolutionary flow of things? I mean, we've eradicated species, introduced evasive species and done a lot of other things that would ultimately affect evolution. If fact, because of the things we've done to that evolutionary chain, couldn't it be said that we are at our evolutionary peak?
No, not at all, to both questions.
Also...what about homosexuality? How does that fit into evolution? It exists in every known specie on the planet, but how does it contribute to evolution?
By no means does it exist in every known species on the planet. As for evolution, an individual who doesn't engage in whatever that species does to reproduce, doesn't pass on his/her/its genes. The reason why doesn't matter.
 
*raises hand* I've got a question for Evolutionists: Haven't human beings utterly disrupted the evolutionary flow of things? I mean, we've eradicated species, introduced evasive species and done a lot of other things that would ultimately affect evolution. If fact, because of the things we've done to that evolutionary chain, couldn't it be said that we are at our evolutionary peak?

Also...what about homosexuality? How does that fit into evolution? It exists in every known specie on the planet, but how does it contribute to evolution?

Yeah we probably have disrupted the flow of evolution of many species. But, that's not unusual in history. In fact, it naturally occurs all of the time. I suppose that you could argue that we are disproportionately affecting other species when compared to, um, other species. But, again, you could argue that even THAT in and of itself is the natural progression of evolution. The thing that should concern us is; are we affecting it so much that it is beginning to upset the ecological cycle of our planet in general? What are the consequences for such changes?

I don't know how that would relate to "evolutionary peak"s though (by "peak", I presume you are referring to that in a purely linear fashion, like humans to chimps, because evolutionary peaks are supposed to occur all the time in every species that we see today). Certainly, if history is anything to go by, we've got some way to go yet. The only major difference between us and previous forms of evolution is that we are "self-aware" and occasionally, rational beings. I'm not an evolutionary scientist, but I'd be surprised if this is all nature has to offer.

As for homosexuality, certainly humans seem to have overcome that issue, with many alternative options available to same-sex couples to help contribute to the population. As for other species, I would presume that the individual animals in question would end their genetic history with that generation (due to their unsuccessful completion of the reproductive process). But, much of what I've written here I've just pulled from the recesses of my mind and things I've picked up over the years, so feel free to contradict me on any of those points if you've got sources or know-how.
 
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Then it comes down to math if you have enough time for mutations to find a useful gene sequence. The math isn't good from what we have seen so far. Even if a useful mutation is found it will most likely to be deluded because of sex especially on a grand scale as lab research has shown. This make the odds of soft mutation (not life or death situation) almost impossible to become fixed in a large population. So you need a large population to have any chance find a useful mutation then almost immediately reduced down to a very small population to have any chance to become fixed. This has to be repeated for every single small step.
It's even hard for bacteria antibiotic resistance to become fixed on the grand scale.

The only reason for antibiotic resistance not becoming fixed globally is because there are so many different strains and substrains of different kinds of bacteria that there are bound to be populations of the bacteria that are resistant and populations that aren't. Yet there is a growing unease amongst health professionals about certain strains becoming resistant to more and more antibiotics. We're running out.

As for evolutionary change in large populations... one of the posited reasons for our evolutionary leap in intelligence is a crucial point in human history when the entire Homo sapiens population was reduced to just a few thousand individuals. Mass extinctions (like the one we are going through now) and population isolation (such as occured in Australia and Madagascar) are great drivers of evolutionary change.
 
SuperShouden
*raises hand* I've got a question for Evolutionists: Haven't human beings utterly disrupted the evolutionary flow of things? I mean, we've eradicated species, introduced evasive species and done a lot of other things that would ultimately affect evolution. If fact, because of the things we've done to that evolutionary chain, couldn't it be said that we are at our evolutionary peak?

Also...what about homosexuality? How does that fit into evolution? It exists in every known specie on the planet, but how does it contribute to evolution?

+1
To be quite honest I feel a little bit worried to see the New Atheist's claim it as such a fact as they do. This goes along with their 'fact' that religion is dangerous. A hardcore evolutionist or Marxist has proven to be far more dangerous in practice.
New Atheists say that there is no purpose in life but to survive and pass on our genes to the next generation, it's up to ourselves to make up our own purpose. What's stopping an evolutionist finding his purpose in life to kill of the weak? Surely he should give this evolutionary 'fact' a helping hand? It is a blind process as Dawkins states in 'The Blind Watchmaker'.
The justice system along with human rights stop this from being acceptable in society, both of which were originated or highly influenced by Christianity, which is the very foundation if western society itself.
At no point would I point the average atheist out to be capable of such the things like Hitler or Stalin did, but I hope this paints the picture of how a world without religion could truly be. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I get outraged to see such the comments on YouTube for example stating that religion has done nothing worthwhile and that it should be wiped out.
How can science deal with ethics and morality? What does the Atheist have to build the foundations for society? Communism? Marxism?
 
The only reason for antibiotic resistance not becoming fixed globally is because there are so many different strains and substrains of different kinds of bacteria that there are bound to be populations of the bacteria that are resistant and populations that aren't. Yet there is a growing unease amongst health professionals about certain strains becoming resistant to more and more antibiotics. We're running out.

I do worry about what the answer to this problem is. Surely good hygiene (which seems to be the current best practice) is not enough to stop MRSA, for example. Checking the numbers: it's not looking too good... 20,000, 40,000 deaths a years in the US. Us Brits don't fair much better, although we are bringing rates down. Some countries seem to have a handle on it, for now (particularly colder parts of Europe).

But I don't wish to drag the debate off-topic, so I'll leave it there...
 
Let's not confuse Atheism with evolution. Evolution is not an idea put forth by Atheists to present an alternative to "Christian" thinking. (BTW, I still don't like Creationism being put forth as a "Christian" viewpoint.) Evolution is science, backed up by centuries of observation and data collection. Everyone in the world has access to the data, and is free to present whatever hypothesis they can come up with to explain the data. Once any single fact is found to disprove the hypothesis, then it's back to the drawing board.

No such fact has been found for evolution, thus it remains the best, most demonstrable explanation known for the development of species.

On the other hand, Creationism is religion. As a "theory" it fits none of the real-world evidence. Life forms are not static and unchanging, nor did all life forms ever known come into existence simultaneously. The fossil record clearly shows the progression of life froms from the most basic organic chemistry to the species that exist today, including all those many species that no longer exist. As a "science" Creationism is an utter failure. Those who stubbornly continue to try to present it as a science have absolutely no understanding of what science is. It has the same scientific validity as Santa Claus visiting every household on the planet, one after the other, every quarter of a second or so, in a single evening. It can't be shown to have happened, but it can be easily shown not to have happened.

Creationism is a belief of faith by the uninformed who cling to religious teachings as the One Single Truth, just as they did when the Earth was thought to be flat and was shown to be round, and just as they did when the Earth was thought to be the center of all that there was and was shown not to be. Religious followers have always been stubborn when it comes to science, but there comes a point where you can't keep saying, "But . . . but.... it says here .....," and have any credibility left.

Science is not religion. Scientists don't "believe" in what they see. That doesn't make it Atheist or anti-Christian, any more than Galileo saying that Jupiter had its own moons was anti-Christian.
 
I do worry about what the answer to this problem is. Surely good hygiene (which seems to be the current best practice) is not enough to stop MRSA, for example.
As far as I know meds like vancomycin or zyvox kill every bit of bacteria in the body including MRSA.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancomycin#Antibiotic_resistance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linezolid#Resistance

No antibiotic is perfect. An antibiotic is universally effective until the point that bacteria start developing resistance to it. And once they do become immune to it (through mutation, usually), that mutation becomes more and more widespread, to the point that your formerly cutting edge (and very, very, very, very expensive) antibiotic becomes ineffective against the big bad bugs.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancomycin#Antibiotic_resistance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linezolid#Resistance

No antibiotic is perfect. An antibiotic is universally effective until the point that bacteria start developing resistance to it. And once they do become immune to it (through mutation, usually), that mutation becomes more and more widespread, to the point that your formerly cutting edge (and very, very, very, very expensive) antibiotic becomes ineffective against the big bad bugs.
From my minimal understanding, one or the other will kill everything. So giving someone both of these antibiotics will kill every bacteria, which most cases I've seen the patients are on IV vancomycin and po zyvox, or other antibiotics like cleocin.

My point is there is nothing antibiotics can't currently kill that I am aware of. Of course you are right in saying they will eventually become ineffective, but at the exponential rate health care is growing I doubt there will ever be a wide spread infestation of deadly bacteria like the bubonic plague.
 
No, not at all, to both questions.

By no means does it exist in every known species on the planet. As for evolution, an individual who doesn't engage in whatever that species does to reproduce, doesn't pass on his/her/its genes. The reason why doesn't matter.

Right. Homosexually occurs in MOST of the species on the planet, with mainly incest being excluded, but not excluded entirely. But, mammals and birds commit homosexual acts all the time.

Yeah we probably have disrupted the flow of evolution of many species. But, that's not unusual in history. In fact, it naturally occurs all of the time. I suppose that you could argue that we are disproportionately affecting other species when compared to, um, other species. But, again, you could argue that even THAT in and of itself is the natural progression of evolution. The thing that should concern us is; are we affecting it so much that it is beginning to upset the ecological cycle of our planet in general? What are the consequences for such changes?

I don't know how that would relate to "evolutionary peak"s though (by "peak", I presume you are referring to that in a purely linear fashion, like humans to chimps, because evolutionary peaks are supposed to occur all the time in every species that we see today). Certainly, if history is anything to go by, we've got some way to go yet. The only major difference between us and previous forms of evolution is that we are "self-aware" and occasionally, rational beings. I'm not an evolutionary scientist, but I'd be surprised if this is all nature has to offer.

As for homosexuality, certainly humans seem to have overcome that issue, with many alternative options available to same-sex couples to help contribute to the population. As for other species, I would presume that the individual animals in question would end their genetic history with that generation (due to their unsuccessful completion of the reproductive process). But, much of what I've written here I've just pulled from the recesses of my mind and things I've picked up over the years, so feel free to contradict me on any of those points if you've got sources or know-how.

But...what we're doing to the evolutionary chain ISN'T natural. It cannot be taken as simply a natural disaster, because we've obtained our position through unnatural means, and the damage we've done as humans is FAR greater than any disaster that has ever occurred unless you consider the global flood. (which, btw, if it happened would have erased and corrupted the time tables for everything that came during or before it, which would mean, if it did happen, we would have absolutely no way of accurately determining the age of our planet)

Plus, you have all the partial eradications, like the Grey Wolf in North America. We erased it from the land, which did a LOT of damage to our eco-system. Sure, we're trying to get it back, but it's not really going all that well 'cause people are idiots.

And without the wolf, forests got ravished by deer, cougar and coyote populations exploded. No wolves probably helped the wild bore and other evasive species flourish in America. Evolution implies that, for it to work, a species would have to have a reason to evolve; a weakness or a predator to overcome. But, without that motivation; that ingredient, if you will, wouldn't the Evolutionary process cease to exist?

Also, human beings have demonstrated that they have the power to essentially control what lives and what survives. We could even wipe out ourselves if we so desired. (It's harder to do with non-lethal methods and big cities, but that does not mean we do not have the power). To me, because we humans possess that power, Evolution, if it did exist at one point, has stopped. As soon as we committed our first act of genocide, Evolution would have halted. Sure, nature would have done it's best to correct our power, but we are just too powerful.

No one can say for sure how this earth or the creatures on it got to where they are today because no one alive was there when it started. Not even prophets can see that far in the past. But, it has been stated many many many times in the past that human beings are powerful. Even in the Bible, God mentions that we are like gods (Gen. 3:22) and we have such great power that not even heaven is beyond our reach. (Gen 11:6) (And didn't the Greek gods eventually fall victim to the power of mortal men?)

There all sorts of things that we have done that would have decimated the flow of Evolution. Domestic dogs, domestic cats, cows, modern chickens and turkeys (which, by the way, can no longer breed on their own)....My point isn't that we've simply disrupted evolution, we've completely stopped it for MANY species. We, in our current form, would be the ultimate evolutionary specie because of our power. If we can stop the evolutionary chain of events, if we are the fittest specie, then wouldn't "man-beasts" be the ultimate end to evolution. Then every specie would be on level ground. There would be no fittest specie anymore. (By the way, if you consider we are at our Evolutionary fittest point, then that means we would have arrived at this point BEFORE everything else, which would imply that the Evolutionary flow was out of balance from the beginning...and maintain it's out of balance ways through several mass extinctions if you believe in those. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't how Evolution is supposed to work. I'm starting to see why Darwin himself had issues with applying his "theory" on much larger terms, 'cause when you REALLY start to think about it, it doesn't really...work. 'Cause humans don't entirely fit.)

Now...if one were to say humans were the caretakers of Evolution, then that makes more sense....but wait...weren't we called "caretakers of the land" somewhere already?

Oh yeah:

"And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." -- Genesis 1:28.


EDIT: P. S. I'm not saying the Bible is right or literal or anything like that. I'm just saying human beings are powerful enough that even the writers of the Bible acknowledged our power. As for the homosexuality thing....if you want to go with the Evolutionary theory, then it would simply be nature...which definitely isn't something most Christians want to acknowledge. As for me, I have no idea why homosexuality exists. A lot of naturalists believe it shows an extremely close bond between members of the same sex..."closer than family" if you will. And that maybe what it was, at one point, with humans, as well. But, as with all animals, we humans are pretty darn unpredictable and I think to answer the question as to why homosexuality exists in so many species, we would have to ask them, but, if we did ask them, we'd better be prepared for every specie to give us completely different answers.
 
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The problem is that not every country and health-care system that uses antibiotics is perfect or up to American or European levels of sophistication. Heck, not every American health-care facility is of the same standards.

The big problem with antibiotics is that the more you use them, the more bacteria you expose them to. And the more bacteria you expose them to, the bigger the chances of triggering the mutation that causes them to become ineffective in the bacteria strains you're treating for. And mix in patients and facilities which use them improperly (using them for viral infections instead of bacterial infections, not completing the regimen, etcetera... and you get super-bacteria that will be resistant to both.


New Atheists say that there is no purpose in life but to survive and pass on our genes to the next generation, it's up to ourselves to make up our own purpose.

Religion belongs in the religion thread.

But in light of this... it has been shown that cooperative behavior and altruistic behavior increases the survival factor of the species, and it may be what helps us prevent or delay the mass extinction that we ourselves have initiated.

-----

RE: Homosexuality. Pure "heterosexual behavior" gives you aggressive, non-nurturing males and completely submissive females. Species survival is enhanced by having "feministic" behavior in males... nurturing, caring, etcetera... and having "masculine" behavior in females... aggressive and dominating (protecting young and territory). This is balanced out by completely homosexual creatures not reproducing as much as heterosexual creatures.

Homosexual behavior or tendencies help increase bonding between members of a species. While, nowadays, men in western (and western-ized) cultures tend to be neurotically homophobic, in other societies and other times, showing physical affection to other men was not frowned upon. Still... the most homophobic of men tend to put "bros before **s", which is a good way of ensuring your genes aren't getting passed on easily, either. :D
 
But...what we're doing to the evolutionary chain ISN'T natural.
Why not?
I have trouble imagining a natural thing doing something unnatural.
My thought is humans are natural therefore what we do in inherently natural.
 
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If i may may chime in,here's my two cents,I for one rationally believe in a Creator.I also do not believe creation and evolution are mutually exclusive,while an aminal may have existed for ages,it also may need different adaptations for survival in diverse places,however it does'nt change the fact that it is still the same animal.While science might be the evolution of theories that continually disprove one another,the fact remains that science only exist in an atempt to explain what has already existed.we certainly owe alot to science in understanding may areas of importance.The question I have is this; a human body has many cells,tissues,organs and systems,these work in unison we understand that,but can science truely explain what the element of life is?
 
Why not?
I have trouble imagining a natural thing doing something unnatural.
My thought is humans are natural therefore what we do in inherently natural.

So...human beings are "naturally" so powerful as to destroy and alter the world how we see fit? But...wouldn't that fall more into the Creationist theory?

The power we have to take away life in such massive numbers isn't natural. No other specie on the planet has that power. Even when a pack of wolves goes into "kill mode" in a heard of cattle, they don't kill 6 million cattle. No other specie on this planet has committed genocide. Even the evolutionary "genocides" were done by either meteorites hitting the planet or supervolcanos erupting. Naturally, it takes a MASSIVE force; a great amount of power to do what human beings have done. If we are "naturally" doing this, then we, ourselves, are great natural disaster that is ever-present. I mean, we haven't just committed genocide, we've stopped rivers in their tracks, moved mountains, carved great holes and swaths in the land...There are great cities where great forests once stood; forest so thick sunlight couldn't reach the ground. (The forests in the Cascade Mountains are like this. Where Seattle is now, was a forest like this. It's pretty crazy...the trees are like a wall.) Hell, we've left our own atmosphere. There aren't many "natural disasters" that have ever done that, if any. I would think that our power falls into the category of supernatural or paranormal, if you ask me. But...again, this is my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I respect Darwin and all, but even he hinted that his theories were wrong.

"Analogy would lead me one step further, namely, to the belief that all animals and plants have descended from some one prototype. But analogy may be a deceitful guide." (Which, if we did descend from one prototype, evolution would dictate, that, eventually, we would return to one specie. Evolution implies an end eventually. A point where everything has evolve to the point where it simply can't anymore.)



RE: Homosexuality. Pure "heterosexual behavior" gives you aggressive, non-nurturing males and completely submissive females. Species survival is enhanced by having "feministic" behavior in males... nurturing, caring, etcetera... and having "masculine" behavior in females... aggressive and dominating (protecting young and territory). This is balanced out by completely homosexual creatures not reproducing as much as heterosexual creatures.

Homosexual behavior or tendencies help increase bonding between members of a species. While, nowadays, men in western (and western-ized) cultures tend to be neurotically homophobic, in other societies and other times, showing physical affection to other men was not frowned upon. Still... the most homophobic of men tend to put "bros before **s", which is a good way of ensuring your genes aren't getting passed on easily, either. :D

That is a very...loose definition of "homosexuality." In a sense it IS accurate to say that the bonds I make with my male friends is a "homosexual" bond. However, I'm not going to go out and sleep with my best guy friend. In the animal kingdom, this happens all the time. Female hyenas are known to mount each other; male AND female lions mount each other...dogs, cats, dolphins, wolves...It is literal homo-SEXUAL behavior. Again, I'm not going to "mount" all my friends at a superbowl party to build my bond with them. I might give them a hug, but that's about it.

And it's the more direct and literal sense of the word that I'm referring to. But, like I said, in my opinion, even if you were to ask every animal specie on this planet, you'd get a completely different answer for why they commit homosexual acts.
 
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Then obviously am missing the point. Discard my previous posts on the topic of evolution, I obviously have a distorted view of the theory. I will continue to study the subject.
Please remember through that I am making an effort to understand. Encouragement would be nice instead of discouragement, but if I have got in inaccurate understanding of such things as evolution, then by all means make sure that I get the point, even if it means metaphorically shouting at me.

I applaud your efforts to understand the various different subjects being discussed but I worry that you're seeking the answers from some quite biased sources sometimes and it's skewing your views.

I wouldn't normally recommend it but wikipedia really is a good place to start as it is at least moderated and provides a handy list of references for further reading .

Also...what about homosexuality? How does that fit into evolution? It exists in every known specie on the planet, but how does it contribute to evolution?

On its own, it doesn't contribute, but since a vast proportion of our species isn't homosexual and we can carry on regardless, there's no evolutionary disadvantage to some of our species being homosexual.

In modern life we have adoptions and surrogates anyway which allow homosexual couples to have kids, even if genetically they don't contain the data of both partners. Modern "survival of the fittest" is often dictated by modern living now, rather than simply making it through the year without being eaten or succumbing to disease.

New Atheists say that there is no purpose in life but to survive and pass on our genes to the next generation, it's up to ourselves to make up our own purpose. What's stopping an evolutionist finding his purpose in life to kill of the weak?

Common morals and decency. I won't go off on a killing spree because I wouldn't like someone to do the same to me.

There's an evolutionary advantage to not killing off all your competition, and to go one step further, there's an evolutionary advantage to help fellow members of your species, working together for the greater good.
 
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Homosexuality must either be a survival trait or at least a survival-neutral trait. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

While no link has been shown between adult testosterone levels and homosexuality... could it be possible, perhaps, that the current "norm" isn't as high as it was in prehistoric times? That hyper-aggressive ultra-males were simply bred out of existence because less heterosexual males made better parents? Just a pet theory, there, and probably impossible to prove.

The degree of homosexuality varies, though... as I know a lot of openly gay men who have married and have had kids. (Which puts to rest the idea that gay people don't have kids!) Interestingly... most adopted children of gay couples are straight (or as straight as the rest of us), so the "nurture" factor doesn't seem to be as strong as most people think.

There are a lot of interesting theories about how homosexuality affects reproductive success. Some posit the "gay uncle" theory (gay uncle without kids helps ensure survival of non-gay nephews and nieces by acting as a second parent), others have found indirect links between homosexual males and fertility of their female relatives.
 
My point was that homosexuality hasn't genetically contributed to evolution, because until relatively recently in the human timescale homosexuals haven't been able to pass on their genes - unless, of course they only had homosexual tendencies and did have heterosexual relationships.

Culturally you definitely have a point, there need to be masculine and feminine attributes in both genders.
 
What's stopping an evolutionist finding his purpose in life to kill of the weak? Surely he should give this evolutionary 'fact' a helping hand?
Evolution is a 'blind' process, but human beings are not compelled to imitate it.

This is how you answered your own questions, and I think you were only partially right...

The justice system along with human rights stop this from being acceptable in society, both of which were originated or highly influenced by Christianity
... the first sentence is correct, but the latter part is only part of the story. The justice system and human rights are derived from our understanding and adoption of morality. This may well have been influenced by religion, but it has also been influenced by non-religious things, such as logic, reason, philosophy and science. Simply put, religion does not have a monopoly on morality.

To go back to your original questions, the reason that people should not attempt to 'give evolution a helping hand' by killing off the weak is because that would be immoral. A more tricky question is how to explain the observed brutality of nature. Why are we one of only a fraction of species that is capable of empathy and not behaving like many other animals? The forces of nature, including evolution, are blind, unsympathetic and often brutal. Nature's brutality is evinced by every animal species on Earth, but atleast we have the capacity to act differently (even if we often don't).

Evolutionists can readily explain the observed brutality in the rest of the natural world as the product of blind forces - a fight for survival with limited resources - and can see that there is (usually) no malice involved. However, since we humans are capable of reason and of understanding morality, our actions cannot be so lightly excused. If a dog kills a human baby, it is not guilty of an immoral act, just as a lightning bolt cannot be held morally culpable if it kills someone either. But we can. Evolution is amoral... but we are not.

Creationism may come to similar conclusions with regard to the morality of human action, but it cannot so easily explain why the rest of the natural world is as uncaring and as brutal as it clearly is. Rather than accepting that forces of nature such as evolution are blind (and hence amoral), creationists believe instead that they all have a purpose and/or are guided, presumably by a being possessed of human-like moral understanding (i.e. God). This raises alot of questions such as, why would an all loving God create such an unholy fight for survival? And, if there is purpose behind the forces of nature, does that make the instigator of such brutality morally culpable for it?
 
Here's a cute story of how lab rats will help a pal, or even a stranger, to escape confinement. They will even share their precious chocolate chips! This may be a demonstration of empathy, altruism and morality among one of nature's supposedly lowest creatures. It may turn out that lab rats are more moral than at least some humans.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/TechandScience/Story/STIStory_742996.html

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
Interesting, although I am not sure why they refer to rats as 'primitive creatures'... indeed, rats are one of our closest evolutionary neighbours, our respective lineages diverging around 100-125 million years ago according to some estimates. Although, as I found out, you may not want to tell a creationist this to his face, lest you be confronted with the accusation 'Are you calling me a rat?'...
 
Touring Mars
Interesting, although I am not sure why they refer to rats as 'primitive creatures'... indeed, rats are one of our closest evolutionary neighbours, our respective lineages diverging around 100-125 million years ago according to some estimates. Although, as I found out, you may not want to tell a creationist this to his face, lest you be confronted with the accusation 'Are you calling me a rat?'...

Personally I'd rather be called a rat than an ape.
And there are many creationists who believe in macro-evolution.
 
You're a primate, but not an ape.

And nobody "believes" in evolution, macro, micro, or otherwise. It's a science, not a belief system. Until that clicks on, you're not going to understand this at all.
 
Personally I'd rather be called a rat than an ape.
Why?

I don't understand why people refuse to accept that the human species is a part of a wider family of species - and that that wider family is part of an even wider family etc. Humans are not rats, but we are both mammals. Humans are not chimps, but we are both primates and we are both mammals. To call a human being a primate is correct, so I don't see why you'd rather be called a rodent (which you are not) to being called a primate (which you are).
 
wfooshee
You're a primate, but not an ape.

And nobody "believes" in evolution, macro, micro, or otherwise. It's a science, not a belief system. Until that clicks on, you're not going to understand this at all.

I never said that it was a belief system at all. I just said that I don't believe that macro-evolution occurs.
 
Touring Mars
I'm genuinely interested to know, so I'll ask again, why would you rather be called a rat than an ape (or a primate)?

It was an attempt at humour. Rats I find humble self sufficient creatures, while apes I find are rather obnoxious.
Being called an ape suggests that you predominantly share the same features as them, which is less desirable than being called a rat, whom I fail to relate to in the same way.
 
It was an attempt at humour. Rats I find humble self sufficient creatures, while apes I find are rather obnoxious.
Being called an ape suggests that you predominantly share the same features as them, which is less desirable than being called a rat, whom I fail to relate to in the same way.

If you were trying to be humourous, the Joke thread is here ;).
 
+1
To be quite honest I feel a little bit worried to see the New Atheist's claim it as such a fact as they do. This goes along with their 'fact' that religion is dangerous. A hardcore evolutionist or Marxist has proven to be far more dangerous in practice.
New Atheists say that there is no purpose in life but to survive and pass on our genes to the next generation, it's up to ourselves to make up our own purpose. What's stopping an evolutionist finding his purpose in life to kill of the weak? Surely he should give this evolutionary 'fact' a helping hand? It is a blind process as Dawkins states in 'The Blind Watchmaker'.
The justice system along with human rights stop this from being acceptable in society, both of which were originated or highly influenced by Christianity, which is the very foundation if western society itself.
At no point would I point the average atheist out to be capable of such the things like Hitler or Stalin did, but I hope this paints the picture of how a world without religion could truly be. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I get outraged to see such the comments on YouTube for example stating that religion has done nothing worthwhile and that it should be wiped out.
How can science deal with ethics and morality? What does the Atheist have to build the foundations for society? Communism? Marxism?

First, Evolution is an explanation for the observed diversity and development of species. You can't treat it like a religion. A Christian might go to the Bible and read something to look for advice on overcoming some problem. You can't do that with The Origin of Species, or any other book on evolution, unless your problem is writing a paper or something. The theory of Evolution does not exist to tell you how to live. It tells you how you got here, and how you can effect species, etc.

Next, law, reason, etc, predate Christianity by a huge amount of time. And religion has given plenty of negative contributions like opposing science/truth, and promoting inequality (one of the first things that happened to the Vikings after they converted to Christianity were that women were reduced to being their husband's property). I'd imagine a world without religion being very much like now, only with more productive Sabbath days. Not trying to sound harsh, but I can't see any negatives to giving it up.
 
It was an attempt at humour. Rats I find humble self sufficient creatures, while apes I find are rather obnoxious.
Being called an ape suggests that you predominantly share the same features as them, which is less desirable than being called a rat, whom I fail to relate to in the same way.

Apes (gorillas, chimps, orangutans) are pretty damn awesome tough!👍

As for you post asking what an athiest would base a society of, the answer is: Rationality, moral and common sense. None of which are religous trademarks.

Anyway we I digress. I suggest you read Touring Mars' posts well if you are genuinely interested in evolution.
 

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