Creation vs. Evolution

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DCP
Perhaps it doesn't bother them, because they are busy in their day to day lives, and because they have Jesus, they have nothing to worry about.

So the Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist "young earthers" are chilling back and sticking to their creation stories because they have Jesus??!?!?!

You've thrown some screwballs out there before, but that one.......
 
I have my own theory, that we actually live inside a computer simulation..
Just like MMO games, we are the players, live inside a world thart has been created by the developers (by strokes of keyboard).
How the world created we will never know, because it's all only an illusion, a simulation.. using formulas that are set by the developers.
We can only analyze those polygons, we can only stare through the endless space of emptiness, but we will never know how everything existed.. what language did the programers use, what server they are using, etc..
 
So the Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist "young earthers" are chilling back and sticking to their creation stories because they have Jesus??!?!?!

You've thrown some screwballs out there before, but that one.......

Sorry that was wrong of me. I miss-interpreted the question. I'm unaware of what they believe.
 
DCP
Hi there, I have read posts, but there is nothing to convince me otherwise of these theories and calculations. Did you miss that you tube clip I posted about science? I love science. It reveals the awesomeness of Gods creation to me. No body else claimed to create all that, not even nothing. That is just mans opinion.
If it makes any difference, I don't believe in aliens "unless they are referring to demons", and I don't believe in life out there, even if there are a trillion possibilities of golilocks zones.
Once again its not science.

I've seen that youtube clip before and it cherry picks, distorts and ignores anything that doesn't fit the pre-set theist world view.

IT IS NOT SCIENCE.



DCP
If you can find that "life", then my God is potentially a liar, and I will be upset with Him...:)
And what questions about God would that raise in your mind?


DCP
So what started life, the star dust from the universe right? Please don't try to fill my two slices of bread again. I read about the millions of years of rain, and molten rock earth and micro organisms etc, which still lead to "where did it come from."
We do not know.

Its as simple as that, however what science doesn't then do is fill that with any old nonsense.

Answer me this, what evidence exists to put the Christian creation myth above that of any other faith?


DCP
You can't grasp the concept that God is eternal. He is not part of the system and laws we are living under. If you would really like to ask God this question personally, you know by now what you should change.
That doesn't answer the question, where did God come from?


DCP
Only for one entire day, and God did say that the animals fell with the curse. I also believe that the entirety of creation fell. Hence the violent universe. "Since God made everything good, then why would suns explode, and light get swallowed up". That's why the bible says, " You have created all these amazing things, but who then is man, that You are so mindful of him"
Apart from the fact (and it is one) that we have evidence to show that this has been occurring for billions of years, and before you start with the nonsense again, yes we have seen it.

http://www.space.com/5371-supernova-birth-observed-time.html

DCP
Sorry that was wrong of me. I miss-interpreted the question. I'm unaware of what they believe.
And yet you know your right?

How is that?
 
I have my own theory, that we actually live inside a computer simulation..
Just like MMO games, we are the players, live inside a world thart has been created by the developers.
How the world created we will never know, because it's all only an illusion, a simulation.. using formulas that are set by the developers.
We can only analyze those polygons, we can only stare through the endless space of emptiness, but we will never know how everything existed.. what language did the programers use, what server they are using, etc..

Unfortunately, this one is also untestable as far as I'm aware. If you can think of a test that could be performed that would potentially give a negative result then maybe, but there's always going to be the answer of "well maybe the programmer thought of that and programmed in a specific result so that we wouldn't know".

The Matrix idea is about as useful as the God idea. Neither of them actually add anything to our understanding of the universe, they're just additional layers that need to be accepted as they are. Thus, a lot of people find it more rational to simply accept that what we see is what we get.

==========

Also, I think it's time for this:

DCP
...science...

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Because let's be honest, this is a man who is not interested in learning what science is really capable of (and what it's not capable of) because he knows it all already.

Which is ironically the complete opposite of science.

==========

I should note that a lot of lay people have warped ideas of what science actually is. For which we can probably thank modern media and their need to sex everything up. I cringe every time I see "forensics" performed on television.

However, most lay people are willing to listen when actual scientists explain what science does and doesn't do. It's both more limited and simpler than most people think, it's merely the best and most robust way anyone has come up with of learning new things about the universe and everything in it.

Which is exactly why it's not in conflict with religion. Religion does not attempt to learn anything new, religion defines things that are unknowable and therefore outside of what science can be used to learn about.

Of course, some religions attempt to define things that are knowable, and therefore get themselves into hot water. If the Koran said that the sky was pink with yellow polka dots, we'd all ignore it because we can see for ourselves that it's not the case.

Likewise, the parts of religion that are in direct conflict with observable reality should be ignored. If you want to explain it away as the fallibility of human agents writing the text or whatever, fine. There are any number of justifications that you can use to keep your faith intact and still accept that what your eyes tell you is the truth. The universe is right in front of you, and you can't deny what it is just because a book says different.

Well, you can. But it's not the sign of a healthy mind.

When there's a conflict between observable reality and a book, believe reality. From a theist's viewpoint, God made both. But the book has been filtered through human authors and translators and priests trying to consolidate their power and who knows what else that gets between you and God's message.

The universe is straight from God. No middleman. This is what he wanted you to see.

Accept it.
 
I would agree. It's unecessary to question his motives but it is worth noting that his continued ignorance of the facts is as annoying as trolling, which is reason enough to call him out on it.
Then you don't understand the definition of trolling.
 
DCP
I have one desire, and that is to see people call on Christ. To forget all the nitty gritty debates and arguments, and actually try to understand where I'm coming from. Debates will go on and on, because someone wants to be victorious. Such is our arrogant, selfless and proud nature unfortunately.
So when we try to convince you that evolution is true, we're arrogant, selfless and proud, but when you try to convince us to love God, that's fine?
I'll explain one more time. The origins of evolution is the big bang. The big bang until proven as fact, came from nothing. Without this big bang, no life.
You can keep trying to "explain" but when you don't care about facts, about things we observe in reality, literally things you can see with your own eyes, you may as well try to convince us that 2+2 is 5.
You cannot convince me otherwise, no matter how hard you try.
And we're the arrogant ones? What was that you said about being blind to the truth?

When you say stuff like this you practically admit we're convincing, and you just want to ignore it.
You can explain everything you want to, to tell me what is in between the two slices of bread, but the fact is, one slice is us here today, and the other slice is this big "small" bang from nothing.
If god can come from nothing, why can't the universe? It's just one less step.

Also, you should know that plenty of people are happy to believe that God created Earth with animals and they evolved from there. Since, as we keep reminding you, evolution has literally nothing to do with the big bang.
For the christian, if you accept evolution, then God is a liar, because He said "by one man, sin and death entered the world. If you accept that life existed before Adam, then you are accepting that this life was already cursed, because on bones, scientists still find diseases in them, that supposedly pre-date Adam. If a child reads Genesis, they will never find billions of years in there. Its fitting when Jesus said " To enter to kingdom of God, you must become such as these children. Nicodemus was probably scratching his head again, but the fact is, Jesus meant adults needed to be as innocent as children.
You admit that it's confusing and then claim to know as FACT exactly what Jesus meant. What was that about arrogance? Even if the bible were true, you can't possibly expect anyone to accept that your interpretation is "fact".
We are all defensive and build walls around our hearts, because of past experiences etc.
You've certainly proven that. What was that about "You'll never convince me"?

And remember that most of us have already told you that we would believe you if there were evidence. So far you've only made claims of fact and told us what you know but not how you know it.
Everyone is going through something in their lives that they cannot understand.
We could help you understand but you've admitted you don't want us to. Meanwhile we're still interested in seeing evidence for God.
 
Dark matter is an explicit admission by scientists that there's something being measured (by gravitational interactions and such) and they don't know what it is. That's just the name they give to it, it may not be dark or matter.
Yes, that's probably a better way of putting it. Gravity on a galactic scale doesn't quite make sense, and the reason why is being call dark matter, although we don't yet understand what it is.



If the Big Bang is what we think it is, we will never know the cause. By definition, the Big Bang is a point at which causality breaks down, so what happened before cannot be inferred from what happened after.

If we are able to find out what happened before, it's because we've somehow gone outside causality, or it wasn't a Big Bang at all. Just a big bang. :)

With my passing interest in this stuff I have come across proposed causes of the Big Bang, like colliding branes in string theory making a big bang. I don't know how much traction these ideas have in the scientific community though, and you're completely right that we may never know the answer.

DCP
Hi there, I have read posts, but there is nothing to convince me otherwise of these theories and calculations.
So what would it take? I understand that it can be hard to accept something that clashes with your world view to such a large degree, but if you actually care to find the truth then you need to be open to all ideas (this doesn't mean you accept all ideas, but that you at least consider them). Consider this from a religious perspective. The Jewish people were/are God's chosen people, however they failed to recognize Jesus and thus Christianity was born and became the "true" religion. What if you are failing to recognize the truth by clinging to outdated ideas? Why couldn't God have influenced Darwin to tell the world about evolution? Or maybe god isn't needed at all, and you've never really truly considered that idea.

You reference the Bible a lot, but that's circular reasoning. I could write my own book and put whatever I want in it. It wouldn't be true. The same goes for the Bible, and there are plenty of cases where it shows a lack of knowledge that you would expect of a perfect being. Apparently you don't want to bother with things that you can't see directly. So in that case, let's focus on something you could try and see yourself easily.

Leviticus 14

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14

Do you think that what is described here will work and is completely necessary? Why wouldn't a perfect and all knowing God target each individual spec of mold (that he created?) and destroy them instantly?

No body else claimed to create all that
Anyone can claim anything though. It's not the claim that matters, but the evidence.


So what started life, the star dust from the universe right?
The best evidence at this point is that life arose from chemistry. Organic material tends to form naturally in the correct conditions. Putting that aside though, you ask the question as if you need to have an answer. Why? Admitting ignorance is better than making up answer. This is why Biblical answers tend to be unsatisfactory. They're basically made up.




You can't grasp the concept that God is eternal. He is not part of the system and laws we are living under. If you would really like to ask God this question personally, you know by now what you should change.
That doesn't address the issue. If something can't come from nothing, God can't be the creator. The Bible states clearly that God make the universe from nothing, according to you this is impossible. Saying that God is eternal doesn't save him either, because the same can be applied to anything else. In other words, if an eternal God is a good enough loophole for you to escape the problem of something from nothing, then so is an eternal singularity at the beginning of the universe.
 
Once again its not science.

I've seen that youtube clip before and it cherry picks, distorts and ignores anything that doesn't fit the pre-set theist world view.

IT IS NOT SCIENCE.


We're entitled to our own opinions.


And what questions about God would that raise in your mind?

That He is not True, Just and Holy like He tells us, because He should have mentioned such a thing in His word.
satan has his work cut out to try and manipulate this, the proud bugger. It's fitting Gods says "they want to believe in lies, I will send them a great delusion". All I can see is, it's getting hotter.


We do not know.

Its as simple as that, however what science doesn't then do is fill that with any old nonsense.

Answer me this, what evidence exists to put the Christian creation myth above that of any other faith?


I really admire your honesty. Some people don't like to say they don't know, because they feel they must know something to present to the other person. In truth, I believe the devil never gives up trying to trick and lie to people, and i'm not saying these people are the devil.

That doesn't answer the question, where did God come from?

The bible says that God calls Himself YHWH, when Moses asks Him. "I AM"
since our minds cannot comprehend where He comes from, or how He got here, we still have a chance by free will, to get to ask Him. The difference with the universe is it's amazing splendor and wonder, to just appear randomly from nothing. God spoke everything into existence. The verse " His ways and His thoughts are higher than ours" tells why we don't know, but a verse also says, " If only thou could believe".

Apart from the fact (and it is one) that we have evidence to show that this has been occurring for billions of years, and before you start with the nonsense again, yes we have seen it.

http://www.space.com/5371-supernova-birth-observed-time.html


And yet you know your right?

How is that?

And how is this fact? Perhaps this was always there. There are all kinds of things happening in space, anomalies, space dust and clouds etc that science still has much to unlock, which could have been blocking the light etc, and another look picked it up. People say things take a while to happen in space, yet why can't things also happen in quick succession? It's all the same.

So how do you know they are wrong?

Well, hindus have over 3 million gods now, I think. You would think that by the time they reached god number 100, they should have tried Jesus. Clearly something is not working, but the adversary is not complaining. I think I've said before that mormon and islam copy and change the teachings of the bible, by one specific person whom no one has bore witness too. Joseph and Muhammed. One was poisoned by a jewish slave, and died the death his god said he would, if he bore false witness, and the other was shot and killed while in prison. Bhudda I don't know too much about, I think he was a wise man with good teachings. Satan worshippers "don't know what their religion is called, well, at least they know what they want. Illunimati, not clued up about them. Catholic, well, the pope cannot forgive sins, and I see today that he wants the nuclear weapons deal done with Iran.

Did he read his bible:

14:12
Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

Rev 9
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

Can you see the destruction man is setting himself up for?
Might I add, the bible asked the question who is the anti-christ? Then answers " It is the one who denies the Father and the Son. Can you tell me, do you think it is wise for Iran to get nuclear weapons, especially with Isis on the prowl? By the way, I believe totally in the Rapture...:)

I mean the bible also describes a vehicle. How the heck could they know such things that long ago?


So when we try to convince you that evolution is true, we're arrogant, selfless and proud, but when you try to convince us to love God, that's fine?You can keep trying to "explain" but when you don't care about facts, about things we observe in reality, literally things you can see with your own eyes, you may as well try to convince us that 2+2 is 5.And we're the arrogant ones? What was that you said about being blind to the truth?

When you say stuff like this you practically admit we're convincing, and you just want to ignore it.If god can come from nothing, why can't the universe? It's just one less step.

Also, you should know that plenty of people are happy to believe that God created Earth with animals and they evolved from there. Since, as we keep reminding you, evolution has literally nothing to do with the big bang.You admit that it's confusing and then claim to know as FACT exactly what Jesus meant. What was that about arrogance? Even if the bible were true, you can't possibly expect anyone to accept that your interpretation is "fact".You've certainly proven that. What was that about "You'll never convince me"?

And remember that most of us have already told you that we would believe you if there were evidence. So far you've only made claims of fact and told us what you know but not how you know it.
We could help you understand but you've admitted you don't want us to. Meanwhile we're still interested in seeing evidence for God.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm telling you that I'm trusting in the word of God, not man. See above regarding the nuclear deal. Not surprising this is all happening during the tetrads, feast days of YHWH, Shmittah year.
Genesis 1:14 tells why He made the Sun, moon and stars. Let them be for signs and seasons. The hebrew meaning is signals and appointed times. I believe God is signalling planet earth...:)

Leviticus 14

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14

Do you think that what is described here will work and is completely necessary? Why wouldn't a perfect and all knowing God target each individual spec of mold (that he created?) and destroy them instantly?


Do you think that if doctors then followed this verse, how many more people could have been saved from passing on diseases. Again, God is helping mankind. They have still sinned against him no matter what.

Anyone can claim anything though. It's not the claim that matters, but the evidence.

Except the claims of the bible are true, and some scientifically accurate as well, even several thousands of years ago. http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html


The best evidence at this point is that life arose from chemistry. Organic material tends to form naturally in the correct conditions. Putting that aside though, you ask the question as if you need to have an answer. Why? Admitting ignorance is better than making up answer. This is why Biblical answers tend to be unsatisfactory. They're basically made up.

I hope we have a few more years, to give man more time to find more answers.



That doesn't address the issue. If something can't come from nothing, God can't be the creator. The Bible states clearly that God make the universe from nothing, according to you this is impossible. Saying that God is eternal doesn't save him either, because the same can be applied to anything else. In other words, if an eternal God is a good enough loophole for you to escape the problem of something from nothing, then so is an eternal singularity at the beginning of the universe.

The bible says He spoke the universe into existence. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours.
Seek first His righteousness, and then all things will be added unto you. Until then, any and every theory becomes a possibility. Having said that, I cannot prove to you that God exists, and you cannot prove that He doesn't exist.

Other than being filled by His Spirit, I can clearly see His attributes when I look around. The marvelous beauty of everything tells me it cannot be random, a fluke, or right place at the right time, and even more so, we're the only ones around to date "THUS FAR" in this entire universe.
 
DCP
We're entitled to our own opinions.
We are, however when you present them as fact in direct contradiction to repeatable, peer reviewed and falsifiable evidence then its no longer just an opinion.

All that video presents is Intelligent Design mixed with 'God did it', not a single piece of evidence is presented to support this claim, only Biblical texts are cited (which is not Repeatable, falsifiable peer reviewed evidence that is and will be subject to change should new evidence come to light).

Its not science.


DCP
That He is not True, Just and Holy like He tells us, because He should have mentioned such a thing in His word.
satan has his work cut out to try and manipulate this, the proud bugger. It's fitting Gods says "they want to believe in lies, I will send them a great delusion". All I can see is, it's getting hotter.
What?


DCP
I really admire your honesty. Some people don't like to say they don't know, because they feel they must know something to present to the other person. In truth, I believe the devil never gives up trying to trick and lie to people, and i'm not saying these people are the devil.
My honesty?

Your mistaken, that's the norm in science. Science has never had an issue with saying it doesn't know, nor has it ever had an issue with accepting change based up new information.

The inability to accept new evidence or accept that you don't know how something came into existence is a trait of theists.


DCP
The bible says that God calls Himself YHWH, when Moses asks Him. "I AM"
since our minds cannot comprehend where He comes from, or how He got here, we still have a chance by free will, to get to ask Him. The difference with the universe is it's amazing splendor and wonder, to just appear randomly from nothing. God spoke everything into existence. The verse " His ways and His thoughts are higher than ours" tells why we don't know, but a verse also says, " If only thou could believe".
So you are unable to answer the question and the answer you say the Bible gives is basically to shut up and accept it!

Oh and for the last time stop inferring that science says the universe appeared from nothing, we do not currently know what was before the Big Bang and the universe as we currently know it, and that its a perfectly valid statement that doesn't need bastardizing by theists out to try and score points.


DCP
And yet you know your right?

How is that?
Repeatable, falsifiable peer reviewed evidence that is and will be subject to change should new evidence come to light.

You really don't know how science works at all.


DCP
And how is this fact? Perhaps this was always there. There are all kinds of things happening in space, anomalies, space dust and clouds etc that science still has much to unlock, which could have been blocking the light etc, and another look picked it up. People say things take a while to happen in space, yet why can't things also happen in quick succession? It's all the same.
No its not all the same, not even close.

Oh and once again......

Repeatable, falsifiable peer reviewed evidence that is and will be subject to change should new evidence come to light.

.....have a guess how much of it exists for the theory of a universe that is billions of years old. Now have a guess how much of it exists for a universe that is 6,000 years old.
 
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and Buddhists feel about evolution?
The Dalai Lama accepts the theory of Evolution as truth, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: I stand corrected:
Despite the success of the Darwinian narrative, I do not believe that all the elements of the story are in place....I am not persuaded that [Darwin's theory] answers the fundamental question of the origin of life. Darwin himself, I gather, did not see this as an issue. Furthermore, there appears to be a certain circularity in the notion of the "survival of the fittest." The theory of natural selection maintains that, of the random mutations that occur in the genes of a given species, those that promote the greatest chance of survival are most likely to succeed. However, the only way this hypothesis can be verified is to observe the characteristics of those mutations that survived. So in a sense, we are stating simply this: "Because these genetic mutations have survived, they are the ones that had the greatest chance of survival."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/darwin_critic_w058001.html

Still, a lot more open minded.
 
Again @DCP you seem to think stuff that happens in space and on Earth is too complicated for anyone to understand. You need to know how wrong you are.

When Einstein came up with relativity, it wasn't just a guess, and you can't dismiss it as Scientist just coming up with answers. Why? Because it turns out if relativity were true, light would be bent by objects with high gravity. Einstein had no idea if that actually happened when he came up with it.

Then, years later, we found that it's exactly what happens, and a perfect explanation for the lensing we see around black holes.

So did Einstein get lucky with his "guess"? And all the other predictions of relativity that turned out to be true after he had an explanation?
 
Nahum 2:4 - The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.



....


Good thinking!

To add to that; Adam and Eve were driven from the garden in a Fury, if I recall correctly, and Moses' followers wouldn't climb the mountain until he sounded his Ram's horn.

Jesus himself was more a JDM guy, although he wouldn't speak of his own Accord.
 
.....Not meant to be off-topic, but I've been reading the past few pages while listening to a mixtape of Metallica, Iron Maiden and...Tenacious D. Am I going to hell for that? :confused:

Back on topic...
 
Nahum 2:4 - The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.



....


Nice one. I was actually watching a few youtube clips with my sons yesterday, and we also came across this flaming dragon...:)
I'm sure you will find that the bible talks about planes as well...;)
Different world views indeed. These are accurate to me, yet to someone else, they are vague and self fulfilling.

.....Not meant to be off-topic, but I've been reading the past few pages while listening to a mixtape of Metallica, Iron Maiden and...Tenacious D. Am I going to hell for that? :confused:

Back on topic...

People are condemned because of their crimes of sin against a Holy Judge.
A criminal cannot be imprisoned if there is no prison. Likewise, a sinner must face judgment in the final court. Off course you know by now who can dismiss your case, if only thou could "believe".

Music, instruments and beats isn't an issue at all. I believe it's the lyrics, and perhaps the state these song writers are in at the time of writing. Also leading many sheep astray.

Maybe, but at least they'll have good music. ;)

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Even if there is music in that place, I have a feeling that no one will find the time and space to listen to it.

Sounds like a horror film hey? Every man has the ability to discern if such is a possibility, or if it bull dust.
All I know is, every man is without excuse. His choice is his free will.
 
You dodged the actual question on cars, try giving a source for them in the bible and now add planes too, please.

Rev
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

One thing is for certain, even if they mentioned a stealth bomber or B-wing by name, it wouldn't make any difference to what a person prefers to make of it.
 
So what's your excuse for not understanding the people you are addressing? We don't want you to preach to us, and we don't want you to convert us. That's not your place.

I have a hard time remembering and finding the verses that tell Christians to go out and convert people.

Most of the conversion related verses are about self conversion.
 
I have a hard time remembering and finding the verses that tell Christians to go out and convert people.
That doesn't stop them from acting as if they have a responsibility to convert people. Ironically, this is the one tactic that is likely to make me reject the idea of organised religion. Just because your faith is important to you, that doesn't mean that it is important to me. Like I have said before, faith is an intensely personal subject, at least for me. What I believe in and why I believe in it is nobody's business but my own. If you wish to discuss it, then I am happy to share it, but I would never dare to believe that it is my place to convert you. The way I see it, you lay your cards out on the table, and if you have any takers, that's great - but if you don't, then you don't go around waving those cards in peoples' faces.

I'm reminded of that episode of "The Simpsons" where Homer and Marge lose custody of the kids through a series of unfortunate circumstances and Ned Flanders becomes their temporary legal guardian while Homer and Marge take parenting courses. The episode comes to a head when Ned realises that Bart, Lisa and Maggie have not been baptised, and takes it upon himself to do it for them without any consultation with Homer or Marge. It's played up for laughs, but I actually find it pretty disturbing to think that somebody feels that they have the right and the responsibility to make such an intensely personal decision for another person like that. It actually bothers me more than the infamous scene where Homer is implied to have been molested by a randy panda bear, because at least that was just a tasteless joke.
 
DCP
Rev
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

One thing is for certain, even if they mentioned a stealth bomber or B-wing by name, it wouldn't make any difference to what a person prefers to make of it.
Self for-filling again.

Can I ask (not that I expect a reasoned answer given the number of unanswered questions you have now left in your wake) if God knows all why he/she/t is not capable of being more specific than this?

You do however mention my favorite book in the NT, the one in which the mask of a peaceful God slips and we are back to OT levels of vengeance. A point at which it doesn't matter if you have lived a good, honest life full of generosity to your fellow man, if you don't believe at this point your dead.

And this trail of death and destruction wrought upon the un-believers, lead of course by JC, sword in hand.
 
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DCP
Rev
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

One thing is for certain, even if they mentioned a stealth bomber or B-wing by name, it wouldn't make any difference to what a person prefers to make of it.

I beg to differ. Mentioning things using specific terms would make all the difference. I don't see anything even vaguely related to aircraft in those verses besides the mention of wings (and I imagine they refer to bird like wings, which aren't very plane like. I further support this since the claim is that the wings make sound where as with actual aircraft most of the noise comes from the engines). There is also mention of iron, a terrible aviation material because it's so heavy.

This is a good example of the faults with alleged Bible predictions. They say nothing really, but there are one or two words supports like to cling to and inflate to huge proportions using tons and tons of hindsight and imagination.

Let me ask you this, if you have never heard of planes before what would you make of the lines above? Would you be able to come up with a working aircraft design?
 
I have a hard time remembering and finding the verses that tell Christians to go out and convert people.

Most of the conversion related verses are about self conversion.

Go, now, and make disciples of "many" nations, baptizing them in the name of the Holy Trinity.
Only by Gods Grace, can every nation on earth have believers in Christ, all started by 12 disciples who we're practically slaughtered for what they believed to be true. Not an ounce of retaliation of violence.

Self for-filling again.

Can I ask (not that I expect a reasoned answer given the number of unanswered questions you have now left in your wake) if God knows all why he/she/t is not capable of being more specific than this?

His not here to convince people to believe in Him. That would be against the point of asking people to believe in Him by faith. The whole point of the message of the Bible. He rather appear in the sky now and tell everyone who He is.

You do however mention my favorite book in the NT, the one in which the mask of a peaceful God slips and we are back to OT levels of vengeance. A point at which it doesn't matter if you have lived a good, honest life full of generosity to your fellow man, if you don't believe at this point your dead.

And this trail of death and destruction wrought upon the un-believers, lead of course by JC, sword in hand.


There is only two kinds of people God sees. Good or evil. I believe every person has evil. How else would a new born baby eventually sin? Through family generations, and bad decisions by parents etc "following the world and not understanding what God is saying to protect you, hence, all is doing just fine without Him"
There is no such thing as a warm christian. You're either hot or cold. Sadly even christians who by their own standards thought they did enough, wouldn't make the Rapture. God says He judges a mans heart. One may seem kind and loving in sight, but behind closed doors, God really knows a persons heart. Every person should see his own heart.

Jesus was a Lion in the OT, a Lamb in the NT, and He will have to come as a Lion again to destroy all who stand with evil and wickedness. The Holy Judge who hates sin remember? According to your fav book, it seems like man "wicked" and their leader satan "prince of this fallen world", will be staging most of the assault anyway.

I beg to differ. Mentioning things using specific terms would make all the difference. I don't see anything even vaguely related to aircraft in those verses besides the mention of wings (and I imagine they refer to bird like wings, which aren't very plane like. I further support this since the claim is that the wings make sound where as with actual aircraft most of the noise comes from the engines). There is also mention of iron, a terrible aviation material because it's so heavy.

This is a good example of the faults with alleged Bible predictions. They say nothing really, but there are one or two words supports like to cling to and inflate to huge proportions using tons and tons of hindsight and imagination.

Let me ask you this, if you have never heard of planes before what would you make of the lines above? Would you be able to come up with a working aircraft design?

That's the problem of our generation today. Imperfect in every way, but yet always looking for perfection, while missing the simple valid points. It doesn't matter if it doesn't sound like a plane to you. John 90 AD, who knows nothing of modern flight travel, is trying to explain what he is seeing in this vision. Even if he is seeing this actual stealth bomber, just how else would you expect him to explain it? He knows what a bird is, a scorpion, horses, fire and Iron. What else could he possibly use to explain what he saw?

If it were a convincing prediction, would you give your life to Christ? Would you say "Jesus I believe in you" because the bible mentioned stealth bomber, or Nissan GTR R35 with the power of 560 horses? Wouldn't you then just say " Nissan and USAF used the bible to name their inventions? Self fulfilled right?

@prisonermonkeys
Don't get the wrong impression. We are not trying to convert anyone, or force anyone. Jesus didn't do it, ever.
I understand from post one I must have "peed" off many guys as well, but it's not them I'm actually pee'ing off.
It's not my intention. I'm putting out what I believe. Jesus did the same. Its the listeners or readers that can decide what ever they wish to do with it. I'm not surprised one bit if I'm taken as a fool. Bible says God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise.
 
DCP
That's the problem of our generation today. Imperfect in every way, but yet always looking for perfection, while missing the simple valid points.
I'm not looking for perfection, I'm looking for the minimum standard of evidence. To not do so is only hurting you, even if you're trying to be devoted to God. For example if you just buy into the first religion you hear, you risk not following the true religion, if there is such a thing. Questioning is only helpful, not matter what side you're on.


It doesn't matter if it doesn't sound like a plane to you.
It absolutely does, how else can I verify that the book is worth listening too. It shouldn't matter if the predictions it makes are accurate or not?
John 90 AD, who knows nothing of modern flight travel,
Very much the point, someone who doesn't know what a plane wouldn't describe it accurately, suggesting that John did not see the future.

is trying to explain what he is seeing in this vision. Even if he is seeing this actual stealth bomber, just how else would you expect him to explain it?
Divine wisdom is the easy answer, God could just beam the best possible words to him. He even could have written it in English despite the language not existing. Besides this, detail and possibly visual depiction. What is the size? Color? Precise shape? Make it sound like you saw something you could not without divine aid rather than something a member of an early civilization would image.

He knows what a bird is, a scorpion, horses, fire and Iron. What else could he possibly use to explain what he saw?
What I mentioned above.

If it were a convincing prediction, would you give your life to Christ? Would you say "Jesus I believe in you" because the bible mentioned stealth bomber, or Nissan GTR R35 with the power of 560 horses? Wouldn't you then just say " Nissan and USAF used the bible to name their inventions? Self fulfilled right?
It depends, you point out a bit of a dilemma. As with Israel, the predictions could easily be self fulfilling if people wanted them to be. Something that would not be would be the physics of flight itself, something very much absent from the Bible. An alternative to avoid becoming a false prophecy is for the prophecy to remain hidden until true.

Bible says God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise.
Understandably, this sounds like a bad strategy though, doesn't it? Perhaps even a little nefarious.
 
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