DA's Super GT Series|PURE Spec 1.0|Last Round 4/14

awr117
Good running Toyota. Managed a 19.008 with a bit of room for improvement. The SC has 18's in it. Just not sure it is worth it when it comes to tires.
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If I can hit any 19's, I'll be purdy happy. Like I've said, Laguna is not a good track for me.
 
DA6righthand
If I can hit any 19's, I'll be purdy happy. Like I've said, Laguna is not a good track for me.
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I think 19's will put you right in the mix of things. My concern is tire wear and pit strategy. I have a feeling everyone will be aiming for a 3 stopper. Not sure i can do it on softs.
 
awr117
I think 19's will put you right in the mix of things. My concern is tire wear and pit strategy. I have a feeling everyone will be aiming for a 3 stopper. Not sure i can do it on softs.
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I have no idea on how.long softs will last me because I'm busy til Friday night. There's a possibility of some Wednesday practice around noon...but not sure. I barely have any time for practice this week.
 
I need to test how long my tires last tonight Because i only did flying laps last night.
 
awr117
I think 19's will put you right in the mix of things. My concern is tire wear and pit strategy. I have a feeling everyone will be aiming for a 3 stopper. Not sure i can do it on softs.
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I ran a simulation and the times I come up with suggest the 4 or 5 stopper to be the fastest option, considering you can make your tires last 8-9 laps (which is a stretch on softs). I'm thinking a 5 stop on softs going around 7-8 laps will be the best option. It keeps you on good tires for the entire race and mistakes are substantially lower on good tires.
 
Z Crazy
I ran a simulation and the times I come up with suggest the 4 or 5 stopper to be the fastest option, considering you can make your tires last 8-9 laps (which is a stretch on softs). I'm thinking a 5 stop on softs going around 7-8 laps will be the best option. It keeps you on good tires for the entire race and mistakes are substantially lower on good tires.
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That's an interesting find. I haven't crunched the numbers as of yet. I do know that Laguna Seca has a few turns that become unpredictable on worn rear tires.
 
awr117
That's an interesting find. I haven't crunched the numbers as of yet. I do know that Laguna Seca has a few turns that become unpredictable on worn rear tires.
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Especially when the car is midengine...
 
Corkscrew is tricky on used tires. I tried some other cars last night, getting 20's in most of them offline. I'm not interested in hard tires for these cars. Kaz messed up and gave them too little downforce. They should have values that rival LMPs, they'd go good to real life times then, but oh well. Laguna is a great little track, should be fun.
 
Was doing some research on SGT IRL and saw times compared to other racing series. So at Okayama Circuit in Japan, SGT has raced there numerous times and LeMans series has been there twice in recent years in 2009 and 2010. Taking qualifying times from 2009 Asian LeMans series the LMP1's were in the 1:19's with the Drayson Lola doing a 1:19.143. SuperGT did qualifying this year 2 days ago for Rd. 1 of 2012's championship with times in the 1:22's with the Zent Cerumo SC430 doing a 1:22.572 followed by Raybrig HSV's 1:22.588. That would have put these SGT's ahead of the fastest LMP2 car which qualified with a 1:23.790! That's not all- I said a few posts ago that Fuji is a track we can compare in-game to real life; last years pole time was a 1:32.738 compared to the high 1:34's we were seeing in this series. And the lap record is a 1:32.481 by the GTR set last year.

Excuse my rant, but we can see that these cars are much faster IRL than they are here in-game. I hope in the future the realism of the downforce and speed of these cars are more accurately depicted from GT6 or a future DLC SGT perhaps.
 
Are PURE specs geared towards the actual specs of the real life GT500's? HP, weight etc?
 
Denilson
No.
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PURE Specs are set for great racing over a season. Each car is unique and has been considered when specs were decided. Matched with tracks it delivers excitement.

These specs were designed for hard racing tires as well.
 
I was only asking since Seth was saying how the lap times were slower from the true cars.

These cars are fun on all tires. I went back and watched our last race. ZCrazy had a good looking tune from the way his car was turning and his tire wear was excellent. Lately i've been chewing up the fronts and not sure how to correct it. I know it has some to do with my driving style, but i feel i need to push the car to get the max out of it. So i am basically braking a bit late and heavy and hammering out of the apex. Appears i have some learning to do lol.
 
awr117
I was only asking since Seth was saying how the lap times were slower from the true cars.
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That's true. Or at least at Fuji and Suzuka.
Reason for this?
I'm not sure at all.
But one thing that comes to mind is the relatively basic tire modeling, along with what I see as a flaw in the aerodynamics programmed for the game.
By just throw racing softs on and say: "I can't reach within 3 seconds of the fastest lap around Suzuka set in the ARTA NSX '06 irl. The tires are not grippy enough."
I'm not saying that you say like this, but many reason just like that.

We need to understand that this is a video game, and some things will not be modelled to 100% accuracy.

So aerodynamics, tire modelling and the high posibility that the tracks are not 100% accurate (track surface have a huge impact on times irl.. is it possible that PD use a standard type of tarmac model, while Fuji and Suzuka are practically rubber coated tracks that provides much more grip compared to your average piece of tarmac? Did PD take this in to concideration or not?) either makes me not care so much about the slight differences.

I.e the Nissan GT-R '07 real life Nordschleife lap time of 7:24 is easily beaten in GT5.
And the lap in GT5 is actually 3 seconds longer.
IRL, the finishline is just after the final right turn.. As in as soon as you're exiting that corner, the timer stops.
In GT5, we need to race all the way to the startline, which is placed just prior T1.
With this in mind, I know times done in GT5 in the '07 GT-R that are 7:12.1XX.. And subtract the 3 seconds longer lap, we look at a time that's 15 seconds faster compared to real life.
Yes, the track is long, so let's say we split it in 5 to make it 4 km long. Split the 15 seconds in 5.. 3 seconds faster over a 4 km (pretty standard track leanght) track.. Would translate to around 4 seconds around Suzuka, which is quite a lot.

So while I think the game is pretty accurate, it's not spot on.
So to compare real life times, and debate why we're not reaching (or reaching and beating times with ease) certain times is pretty much a dead end if you ask me.

Way to many things that separates GT5 from the real thing. Some things can be modeled in a video game, and some can't.


Just a thought.. Let's say that the spoon 2 corner is more off-camber in GT5 compared to real life.. That can easy be 1-1.5 seconds right there.
The oversteer that's always present in Degner 2 might not exist irl either.. another second gained etc..
I've stopped trying to compare, cause I'll just lose it trying to fighure things out. Love the game for what it is, and applaud PD for making it so close to reality that it actually is. But don't compare times straight up.

That's just my 2 cents regarding GT5 vs Real Life. 👍


Some real life times can also be with practically no fule and fresh rubber.. That's around 100 kg lighter compared to what we in 99% of the cases use when TT'ing.
As I said.. many things that can be slightly off.. I get dizzy just by trying to get an idea of why.. :scared:

EDIT: Horrible grammar, I know.. Sorry for that. 5.25 am here.. :scared:
 
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If GT compares times to real life, I don't see why can't do the same. It is claiming to be close to simulation. SuperGT's have massive downforce, they rival those of LMPs as proven by the lap times in real life. The game has higher downforce values for GT2/GT3 style cars than SuperGT's, which is wrong. LMP2 cars can do lap times around the same as SuperGT cars, but with 200kg less weight and slightly less power. This means that SuperGT cars are very efficient and have very high cornering speeds. Like my examples earlier, IRL these cars set lap times that are faster than LMP2 cars around the same track. Also, some of the 'Standard' SuperGT's may actually be faster in game for a good reason. As a few years back the cars actually had more downforce than what they have now and were setting lap records around 2004, 2005.
 
I'm just trying to point out some of the possible differences. 👍

What's worth noting is that we can be 4 seconds a lap off pace when we (The GT5 community) compare what kind of times we can do in a SGT, but we can beat the GT-'s time with about as much as we're behind the SGT.

This is where things get complicated.
If it was a fact that the GT5 community was'nt as good drivers (in game) as real life race drivers, we would'nt beat any real life time.
But what we can see is that some real life times are beaten with ease, and som times can't be touched.

Why?
No idea.
But keeping the fact that I just stated above in mind, I'd guess that there's a good few things that are nog modeled correctly in GT5. Nothing strange with that tho.
 
Wow, this is gonna be a tough race...can't turn consistent and fast laps, at least if I thinking of tire wear. Right now I have to back the pace off to keep the lap times in the same zone (-/+ .500), or burn front tires off by adding a little stability to the setup. Found a diff setup that allows an aggresive throttle application and thus improving lap time but its a "flying lap only" type lap.

Curious though Seth, what have you been able to find regarding Super GT car's downforce? I can't find anything. The closest guess that I can come up with, is based on current GT3 cars downforce, current GT3 cars produce around 600-900 lbs at 150 mph. Because GT3 cars are being allowed in Super GT's 300 class I'm assuming they are fairly close on downforce (likely about 10% lower). I also assume that the 300's are again, fairly close to what the 500's make (likely another 15% lower based on the smaller size and the lower level of devolpment of the cars). With these assumptions I'm thinking that the 500's are in the 1000-1200 lbs of Df at roughly 150 mph, which corresponds to what the McLaren GT1 car from 96-97 made in Super GT. However if this is true that would mean the LMP1's are roughly double the Df at 2700-3000 in the low-med Df configuration at the same speed.

BTW Seth thanks for the link to those pic's a few pages back. Post up any Df figures you can find on GT500's I'd really like to know. I believe they are very close to what DTM cars make.
 
More than DTM, more than LMP2's, and definitely more than GT2/GTE. GT5's downforce values for cars like the C5-R for example are much higher than those for the SuperGT's we use. What's really funny is that the Premium Castrol Supra from 99/00 has more downforce (in game) than the current SuperGT's! I was speaking about Okayama circuit and the comparisons between GT500 and LMP1/2, well lets compare GT500 to GT1/2. 2009 Asian LMS fastest qualifying time for GT1 was 1:29.827 and GT2(GTE) was 1:30.847- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_1000_km_of_Okayama. Compare that to this year's GT300 times- 1:28.975 For the Endless Porsche GT3R, and fastest non-FIAGT3 car was the PRIUS with a time of 1:29.677! So you can see that on some circuits, even GT300 cars are faster than even GTE(top GT class of LeMans type series').

I'm not saying all this because I think we should run the cars faster. I'm just saying this because if they modeled the cars correctly, they should have changed the downforce values, or reversed them. Cars like FIA GT's, or LeMans GT's have nowhere near the levels of downforce the SGT's create. Even the GT300's produce more, and I doubt they have more than 400-450hp this year. The FIA-GT3 cars entered in SuperGT-300 are using FIA's balance of performance. And are only about a second faster than GT300's. Weight has a lot to do with it, but then again GT500's weigh 1100kg and LMP2's weight 900kg. So they obviously are making as much downforce as the prototypes and more to go faster than them with more weight.
 
Regarding downforce:
The numbers we can change on our own in the settings menu is one thing..
Then there's drag that's "bulit in" the body that also creates downforce.
So while the Premium Supra got a 50/70 df value (that's changable in the settnigs menu), the total amount of downforce in the premium '08's can very well be higher in total compared to the Supra.

I'm not sure (who is? :lol: ) how PD modelled the downforce physics, but to me, it seems like the amount of downforce affects the car even at low speeds, and by the same degree as in high speeds. This makes me believe that the downforce physics are constant, no matter what speed the car travels, which is not the deal irl ofc.
It's more like weight added.. It just sits there no matter the speed.. 👎
 
freshseth83
More than DTM, more than LMP2's, and definitely more than GT2/GTE. GT5's downforce values for cars like the C5-R for example are much higher than those for the SuperGT's we use. What's really funny is that the Premium Castrol Supra from 99/00 has more downforce (in game) than the current SuperGT's! I was speaking about Okayama circuit and the comparisons between GT500 and LMP1/2, well lets compare GT500 to GT1/2. 2009 Asian LMS fastest qualifying time for GT1 was 1:29.827 and GT2(GTE) was 1:30.847- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_1000_km_of_Okayama. Compare that to this year's GT300 times- 1:28.975 For the Endless Porsche GT3R, and fastest non-FIAGT3 car was the PRIUS with a time of 1:29.677! So you can see that on some circuits, even GT300 cars are faster than even GTE(top GT class of LeMans type series').

I'm not saying all this because I think we should run the cars faster. I'm just saying this because if they modeled the cars correctly, they should have changed the downforce values, or reversed them. Cars like FIA GT's, or LeMans GT's have nowhere near the levels of downforce the SGT's create. Even the GT300's produce more, and I doubt they have more than 400-450hp this year. The FIA-GT3 cars entered in SuperGT-300 are using FIA's balance of performance. And are only about a second faster than GT300's. Weight has a lot to do with it, but then again GT500's weigh 1100kg and LMP2's weight 900kg. So they obviously are making as much downforce as the prototypes and more to go faster than them with more weight.
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I'm referring purely to real life numbers, not the manipulated values GT5 uses. Like Denilson said, I just accept GT5 for what it is, a pretty good approximation. I'm just curious to if you had some - lift figures. I'm aero-freak and I'm fasinated by it.
 
Monza footage from 1978. The first chicane was different at the time and there were trees around the esses. Pretty neat overall how not much has changed.

 
Yeah there's no rhyme of reason in trying to compare GT5 lap times, aerodynamic efficiency, or tracks to real life in order to build them into our series. Everyone's talking about having the right "feel" to tires or cars - let me just iterate: You guys have never driven a race car!
You're talking about preference, not feel. Look, we had a few guys back in this sub-forum's early days called "Euro GT500" and they said the exact same thing about R1's, preferring to arbitrarily run on R3s just to try and get closer to real life times, which is uselss and gets in the way of fun, putting idealistic number theming over the fun of the racing.

Well they went the way of the Dinosaur and guess what? All of the most pre-eminent and successful Super GT series on this board use racing hards because that's what provides for the funnest racing and the most preffered feel in our minds and we would never have it any other way.

And about downforce, it's even less than an approximation, no sim can simulate air yet, not even iRacing or rFactor, so why would the case apply still in GT5 when trying compare aerodynamic and downforce efficiency? PD just made up an algorithm to reproduce a sort of downforce element to the ar's handling and represented it with an arbitrary value system starting at 0, and it only applies to parts added to the ar that add DF, not taking into consideration the drag co-effecient present on cars in their non aero modified state.

Can we just give up the pseudo technical talk and get out there to have fun?
We simply
 
^Well, I understand your experience, but you know you can't speak for everyone. And all that talk about times isn't just the weird tire model. It's more about realism. Being a 'simulator', GT5 strives for realism, doesn't it? I don't see how running racing soft tires ruins the fun either. Just because some popular series use hard tires doesn't mean every SuperGT series has to follow that line of thought. No one here has driven a SuperGT car in real life. Regardless if they've driven race cars or not, different series have different tire compounds, and provide different levels of grip and wear. I'm sure GT5 gets it pretty close, but maybe in the future they could go more into detail about the different types of tires on these cars, and their makes. Like the fact the Advan (Yokohama tires) GTR isn't nearly as good as the others (on Bridgestones). And the Epson/Stealth NSX (on Dunlops) aren't as good as the other NSXs. So perhaps subliminal tire modeling is taking place as the cars are identical (save for the 50kg extra weight on the Epson).

And Z, I was giving an example of how the downforce levels or values in the game are kind of backwards with the types of cars like SGT's and LeMans style GT's. I don't think anyone knows the #'s officially on the amount of downforce the cars make. But I'd imagine it's approaching LeMans prototypes because of their 1100kg weight yet ability to match P2's times. They also have really good mechanical grip according to Andre Lotterer who now drives the Audi R18, but previously drove the SC430.
 
I'm saying it's never good to sacrifice gameplay for realism. We prefer hards for our own reasons, of course that doesn't mean every one should, no way. We strive more to be authentic, not realistic, if you get me.
 
freshseth83
Like the fact the Advan (Yokohama tires) GTR isn't nearly as good as the others (on Bridgestones). And the Epson/Stealth NSX (on Dunlops) aren't as good as the other NSXs. So perhaps subliminal tire modeling is taking place as the cars are identical (save for the 50kg extra weight on the Epson).
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I sertainly don't think that with the really basic tire modelling PD use, they for some reason model different manufactors used in the various SGT cars.

It's nothing more than a simple G-force multiplyer imo.

Here's a little something..

calan_svc
I've uploaded a spreadsheet with the recommended tires to Google Docs:

GT5 Stock Tire Recommendations


*************

In an effort to figure out what is going on with GT5's tire models and which tires should go on which cars, I decided to do some skidpad testing. I used the 2010 Camaro SS and the Corvette ZR1, since I'm familiar with those cars and actual data is readily available.

We don't have an actual 200' skidpad to calculate lateral g force with in GT5, but what we do have is a g "meter" and a datalog. For the values I came up with, I created a delineated scale and taped it under the HUD g-force bar graph, and also used a scale against the datalog graph during replays as verification. The measurements were taken on the widest part of the TGTT, by turning a continuous steady-speed circle after warming the tires. Lateral g force was recorded up to the point where the car started to skid and could no longer hold the established circle. I also ran laps "on the edge" to verify the numbers, and repeated all the tests twice. (Note that I rounded the numbers to the nearest .05, due to my screen resolution).

My setup is a racing simulator chassis with a G25 wheel, and a Sony 50" HDTV. I ran each test with no aids and a manual tranny in "bumper" cam. (I hate that inaccurate view name :lol:).

First up was the Camaro, with comfort hard (CH) tires. I performed the test on each tire type, trying to be as consistent as possible. I only tested comfort and sport tires; once I got to the racing compounds the grip started getting ridiculous, and was beyond what I wanted to test with this setup.

Here are the numbers (Notice that each softer tire compound increases lateral acceleration by approximately .05g):

CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.00
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15

The real-life Camaro SS scores a 0.87 on R&T's skidpad test. So it would appear that CM tires would be closest to stock for the Camaro, based on lateral acceleration. (I'm going to the next higher number, just because :)).

Now for the 'vette numbers:

CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.05
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15

Virtually identical as far as the lateral acceleration numbers for each tire type. The real-life ZR1 scores a 1.10 on R&T's skidpad, so it would appear that SM tires would be the best stock equivalents for it.

Note: Just for reference, RH lateral g values were around 1.25, and RS were around 1.35 with the ZR1.

Here's where it starts getting weird. The real-life Camaro comes equipped with Pirelli P Zero tires, and the ZR1 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 ZP tires. According to TireRack.com data sheets, both of these tires have identical speed rating (186+mph), tread wear (220), and traction rating (AA).

The only thing I can come up with to explain the unexpected test numbers is that the size of the contact patch is not figured into GT5's tire equations. In other words, to duplicate accurate lateral acceleration numbers for the ZR1, you have to use a softer tire compound to make up for the larger contact patch on the real-life car. (The 'vette has considerably more rubber on the road than the Camaro, especially in the rear).

So far it looks like each car would have to be tested independently to come up with the best GT5 tire type to simulate real life. I plan on doing some more as time permits, but it will be a slow process. First up will probably be one of the Ferrari's that come with the Pirelli P Zero's (599 I think?), so that we have a side-by-side comparison.

Thoughts?

*************

For those that are late to the party and want a quick summary:

My testing so far has revealed that the 9 tire types (CH, CM, CS, SH, SM, SS, RH, RM, RS) in GT5 form what appears to be a simple grip multiplier, with each tire type adding approximately .06g of lateral grip. The only thing that changes is where the scale starts for various cars. (i.e. for the ZR1, CH = .85g and for the '71 Cuda, CH = .80g). It also appears that the width of the tire is not being considered in the grip equations; for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1! And as softer tires are equipped, the amount of grip increases equally for both cars.

The implications of this are that in order to get close to IRL grip performance (based on lateral acceleration anyway), you have to equip different cars with different tires. As an example, just throwing sport mediums on all performance sports cars means nothing. One car may need CM tires to reproduce IRL performance numbers, while a very similar car may require SH tires.

Here are my "recommendations" for the cars I've tested so far (take it for what it's worth and do with it what will you will :)).

Edit: See link at top
Click to expand...
 
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