DeadNutsEven - Where anyone can win!!

[Johnnypenso]

Now that we have the top speeds listed entering the events, I was curious to see how they factored into the results for Tuesday. Here are some interesting stats and the results below with top speeds listed instead of names.

248.2 = Average top speed in top 3
246.8 = Average top speed in bottom 3
256, 243, 251 = Winner's top speeds
245, 256, 235 = Last place finishers top speeds

Race 1

1. 256
2. 251
3. 235
4. 240
5. 257
6. 245

Race 2

1. 243
2. 251
3. 251
4. 257
5. 235
6. 254
7. 256

Race 3

1. 251
2. 240
3. 256
4. 257
5. 251
6. 245
7. 254
8. 235

 

[Cote Dazur]

Just for the accuracy of this Study, my top speed was down to 257 kmh by the time of the event. I had lowered my PP as my pace kept improving with practice during the week.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just for the accuracy of this Study, my top speed was down to 257 kmh by the time of the event. I had lowered my PP as my pace kept improving with practice during the week.

Updated with new info...

 

[Naptown25rs]

So what I'm gathering from this, is that top speed didn't have near as much of a direct correlation to the finishing order as some people might have thought... Or am I wrong?

 

[Johnnypenso]

So what I'm gathering from this, is that top speed didn't have near as much of a direct correlation to the finishing order as some people might have thought... Or am I wrong?

You are right, and that is always the case. You only need to look back in the results and see that the victories were widespread and top finishes well spread out. I don't believe that outside of Suzuka East any car really ever dominated and even then the car that won twice also finished 4th and last and the car was also chosen to game the system as much as possible , big, heavy 4wd in the hands of a decent driver, no offense DSG.

However, even though the podium finishers are varied and spread around, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look at ways to make the racing closer in terms of cornering and straightaway speeds as I think that just makes a better overall racing experience. I want to win as much as the next guy, but as a minimum, I want my DeadNutsEven Racing night to include lots of toe to toe battles with a variety of drivers and the closer we are on the track, the better. You just don't get that type of experience in many other places and then usually only sporadically.

Call me greedy, but my ideal racing experience is a pack of a half dozen cars or more, nose to tail, from start to finish, all relatively the same pace on the track regardless of car choice/pp/tires/tuning etc, and my result in doubt until I cross the finish line. I'd like to be able to outdraft someone and be outdrafted, I'd like it to come down only to racecraft and nothing else, to determine my placing. I would happily finish last every week if it was like that.

What we have so far is great, and in my humble and completely unbiased opinion, the best racing on GT5 when you consider the wide variation in talent. Anyone can throw together a series with equal drivers in spec cars and get close racing, although in reality this is very rare. But to my knowledge, no one has every accomplished what we've done here, taking anyone that wants to race, and allowing him to challenge for a podium or a win, on any track, in his own car, over a 200PP range, on many different tire compounds, on every track in the game, any time. It's just never been done, and I don't want to downplay the great accomplishment we have made here (props to you to Mike5927!!), I just want to keep our options open as to what we can do to make things even closer.

 

[TrackBound7]

I don't think it is even top speed, but the ability to get to that top speed. The majority of my lap times throughout the night were well above the 46 mark and often a 47. I was held up through the infield or battled the aero effect of running behind another car. But on the straight...or I should say coming out of the infield I would lose an incredible amount of space on the car in front. Well before the straight I had already lost any hope of keeping a draft (and that even happened when I exited that last turn quicker than the car in front). So while the top speed may not have been that different, the ability to accelerate to that top speed was drastic. We have always had some of this since the start of the parity racing...Indy for whatever reason was by far the worse I have experienced it. I am not faulting anyone at all and my car selection didn't help matters. We have always had drivers that make up a lot of time in braking and in the corners and others that make it up on the faster sections. The one thing that completely effects braking and corner speed is tires. I think it would be beneficial to at least try one evening with 2 tire compounds (time trialed in on the tire to be raced on). If the guys who get through the turns quickly are on say CM tires and the guys who struggle a bit more in the corners are on CS, that may be just the thing to even out the racing throughout the entire track. Technically the lap times would be the same, but hopefully the method of reaching that similar lap time will be more even. We will always have comers and goers based on car selection, but I think the tire adjustment would make for much closer racing.

 

[dsgerbc]

So what I'm gathering from this, is that top speed didn't have near as much of a direct correlation to the finishing order as some people might have thought... Or am I wrong?

No. No conclusions can be made, using these data. Race result is a mix of skill/consistency, starting position and car (at least, probably a lot more). To determine car's contribution you need either to hold the first two fixed, or have a decent model of how those variables affect results.

So, no conclusion can made here.

One can try to control for these, however, very crudely. Keep track of positions made up relative to the starting position, and see if there is a correlation between top speed and positions made up, for every particular driver. So take JP, calculate positions made/lost in a car of XX mph topspeed (or rather by how much it exceeded the average for that race), then take Ferrari, do the same, etc. And then look for correlation.

 

[dsgerbc]

If the guys who get through the turns quickly are on say CM tires and the guys who struggle a bit more in the corners are on CS, that may be just the thing to even out the racing throughout the entire track.

That's a good idea

 

[Johnnypenso]

So what I'm gathering from this, is that top speed didn't have near as much of a direct correlation to the finishing order as some people might have thought... Or am I wrong?

No. No conclusions can be made, using these data. Race result is a mix of skill/consistency, starting position and car (at least, probably a lot more). To determine car's contribution you need either to hold the first two fixed, or have a decent model of how those variables affect results.

So, no conclusion can made here.

One can try to control for these, however, very crudely. Keep track of positions made up relative to the starting position, and see if there is a correlation between top speed and positions made up, for every particular driver. So take JP, calculate positions made/lost in a car of XX mph topspeed (or rather by how much it exceeded the average for that race), then take Ferrari, do the same, etc. And then look for correlation.

A conclusion can be made here and was, and you are incorrect. There is no correlation between top speed and final results in any of our racing. We have held dozens of races in DeadNuts and dozens before and the final results, track in and track out, never favour or for that matter punish, top speed or handling when you look at all the races and all the results. From race to race yes, you can be affected by who is in front of or behind you, where you start and where you finish, but that is the same in all racing isn't it? Taken as a whole, top speed is not a factor.

......I think it would be beneficial to at least try one evening with 2 tire compounds (time trialed in on the tire to be raced on). If the guys who get through the turns quickly are on say CM tires and the guys who struggle a bit more in the corners are on CS, that may be just the thing to even out the racing throughout the entire track. Technically the lap times would be the same, but hopefully the method of reaching that similar lap time will be more even. We will always have comers and goers based on car selection, but I think the tire adjustment would make for much closer racing.

Testing is already under way in this regard...and yes it's a worthy idea. More on this later..

 

[TrackBound7]

Sorry JP, I know I let the cat out of the bag with the tires, but had this impulse to put the idea out for all to ponder . If we do consider the tire change, I would suggest sticking with it at least for 2 weeks (different tracks, different cars) to get a real feel for whether or not it will work.

I would still like to have the group consider some type of rolling start with an artificial starting point that is agreed upon before hand. I know it has been mentioned, but a reverse grid doesn't make much sense if there is a car or two that launches and accelerates so much quicker than the rest of the field.

 

[dsgerbc]

A conclusion can be made here and was, and you are incorrect. There is no correlation between top speed and final results in any of our racing.

No. You can't make conclusions from a meaningless misleading correlation or a seeming absence of one, when there are far more important factors affecting results. One must account for those or hold them fixed. Please don't take this as me saying "top speed is important", this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the data presented couldn't possibly be conclusive. If anyone cares to know why - it's called "omitted-variable bias".

Testing is already under way in this regard...and yes it's a worthy idea. More on this later..

However, I think it makes 1000% more sense to introduce _along with_ restrictions on top speed. As an aid to cut down on tuning time needed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No. You can't make conclusions from a meaningless misleading correlation or a seeming absence of one, when there are far more important factors affecting results. One must account for those or hold them fixed. Please don't take this as me saying "top speed is important", this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the data presented couldn't possibly be conclusive. If anyone cares to know why - it's called "omitted-variable bias".

However, I think it makes 1000% more sense to introduce _along with_ restrictions on top speed. As an aid to cut down on tuning time needed.

I can make a conclusion and I did. There is no correlation between top speed/PP and podium finishes. If you want to do a statistical analysis on the subject feel free to gather the data and publish your results accordingly. You'll find links to all the results in the first few posts and you can use the link back to Mike's Parity League and find his data and study that as well. Anyone else is welcome to do the same research and draw their own conclusions..

 

[dsgerbc]

I can make a conclusion and I did.

That's fine. The link to the Wiki is there for anyone willing to learn.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll be in the Lounge shortly to try and figure out what the heck happened to the PP system and fine tune my Mazda Roadster for next weeks race. I turned mics back on since the only reason we turned them off was to help with Rido's lag issue and that didn't work, so back on they go.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

This looks very interesting, though 20:00 eastern is a touch early. If you have room, I'd like to try to make it this week.

 

[Davis]

I'll be in the Lounge shortly to try and figure out what the heck happened to the PP system and fine tune my Mazda Roadster for next weeks race. I turned mics back on since the only reason we turned them off was to help with Rido's lag issue and that didn't work, so back on they go.

I was going to use the Mazda. Looks like there's going to be two of them on the field next week.

 

[iainoflo85]

This looks very interesting, though 20:00 eastern is a touch early. If you have room, I'd like to try to make it this week.

There's often plenty of space, I don't think we've had 12 while I've been racing in DNE.

 

[Cote Dazur]

This looks very interesting, though 20:00 eastern is a touch early. If you have room, I'd like to try to make it this week.

Vol, all you have to do to get started is send an FR to the DeadNutsEven PSN ID through your PS3, this week the track/laptime/tire combo is Nurburgring GP/D CM tyre , 1'55.000, pick a car and start driving!!
Welcome to the Dead Nuts Even.👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

This looks very interesting, though 20:00 eastern is a touch early. If you have room, I'd like to try to make it this week.

Welcome Vol. As mentioned above, still room at the Inn at this point.👍

I was going to use the Mazda. Looks like there's going to be two of them on the field next week.

It's quite nice in how it handles this combination, you'll like it. I may try another car or two but for now it's the Mazda.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Okay, maybe I won't get to do this. I should've checked before I signed up. This appears to be for hardcore. I'm way too casual.

For starters, this requires at minimum two evenings a week. So, I have to spend and evening, not being very social, just trying to build out a car. So, that is an evening wasted.

You set the initial time with 351 PP. So I started with a car with 382 PP. That got me to 2:04. I was able to finally get it to 1:56.6, but that is boosting the car up to 451 PP, and it really isn't any fun to drive now.

So tonight, I spent it building out a car that really isn't worth driving any more and is still too slow. If tire wear is on during the race, it will shred its tires by the third lap. So I have to spend another night trying again if I want to race on Monday. And yes, I may get better at doing that, but... at the minimum, it will require two evenings a week.

It is a cute idea, but I'm really not that good.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Okay, maybe I won't get to do this. I should've checked before I signed up. This appears to be for hardcore. I'm way too casual.

For starters, this requires at minimum two evenings a week. So, I have to spend and evening, not being very social, just trying to build out a car. So, that is an evening wasted.

You set the initial time with 351 PP. So I started with a car with 382 PP. That got me to 2:04. I was able to finally get it to 1:56.6, but that is boosting the car up to 451 PP, and it really isn't any fun to drive now.

So tonight, I spent it building out a car that really isn't worth driving any more and is still too slow. If tire wear is on during the race, it will shred its tires by the third lap. So I have to spend another night trying again if I want to race on Monday. And yes, I may get better at doing that, but... at the minimum, it will require two evenings a week.

It is a cute idea, but I'm really not that good.

Tire wear is off for the race, you can pick any car, even race car, as long as it can consistently do the required time. Of course, you will need to spend some time online tuning cars and testing, but you can also use tunes posted in this thread or use one of your tuned car, it's easier to try with high PP, if too fast, reduce PP by 5. Give it a try, join use next week, we welcome all skill level, we race clean and on top them all, have fun.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Okay, maybe I won't get to do this. I should've checked before I signed up. This appears to be for hardcore. I'm way too casual.

For starters, this requires at minimum two evenings a week. So, I have to spend and evening, not being very social, just trying to build out a car. So, that is an evening wasted.

You set the initial time with 351 PP. So I started with a car with 382 PP. That got me to 2:04. I was able to finally get it to 1:56.6, but that is boosting the car up to 451 PP, and it really isn't any fun to drive now.

So tonight, I spent it building out a car that really isn't worth driving any more and is still too slow. If tire wear is on during the race, it will shred its tires by the third lap. So I have to spend another night trying again if I want to race on Monday. And yes, I may get better at doing that, but... at the minimum, it will require two evenings a week.

It is a cute idea, but I'm really not that good.

Yeah we're all about cute...lol. Tire wear is off now by the way, I guess I should update the OP.

It does take a bit of time to get going that is true, but after a couple of events you'll figure out where you are in relation to everyone else and their PP level and finding a starting point is much easier. I post my car/PP/top speed with every target time to give everyone an idea of where I am with my PP because by now they all know where they are in relation to me.

I daresay most of us have it down to a half hour to an hour a week. It really does get easier as you go along. And after a few events, since I'll be using the same qualifying car over and over, you can always look back and see what PP the Z4 was at say 2 events ago when you ran a Mazda Miata, compare it to the current event and adjust your PP up or down accordingly.

But, if you decide it isn't for you, at least thanks for giving us a look.. Hope you stick around as it really is the closest racing you'll ever find and everyone has a chance to win and eventually everyone does win and find the podium. 👍👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ridox2JZGTE / Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85 / Standard / 410PP / Light tune / no ABS / 116 MPH​

By the way, I read that someone have reported, the clutch have been updated with 2.10, now there is no need to lift off the throttle completely when changing gears and no more going neutral. There is a new thread for this as well, and the person used G25 with gate shifter.

clutch problem has been fixed. You no longer need to perform the unrealistic action of completely removing your foot off the gas pedal before pressing the clutch to shift. This lead to missed shifts at a very high rate- leaving you in nuetral and bouncing off the rev limiter.

As far as I knew this only affected Logitech wheels with gate shifters. I am beyond thrilled and just had to make a new thread.

What a beautiful day.

 

[iainoflo85]

Ridox2JZGTE / Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85 / Standard / 410PP / Light tune / no ABS / 116 MPH​

By the way, I read that someone have reported, the clutch have been updated with 2.10, now there is no need to lift off the throttle completely when changing gears and no more going neutral. There is a new thread for this as well, and the person used G25 with gate shifter.

Have you noticed this too?

Hmm, Peugot 205 Turbo, maybe I'll use the Renault 5 Turbo! It's in the OCD right now.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Have you noticed this too?

I am using a stick, so I can't say anything, but Cote, Ferrari and JP uses steering wheel and clutch shifter I think, they should be able to test it.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Something else that has dawned on me, this week you are using Comfort Mediums. You've really narrowed the talent band. For me to keep up, I need my car to go faster, and part of the problem is, now with 451 PP, it spins its wheels through first, second, and into third.

I'm also trying to use an FF, because the FR/MRs that I tested were a bit tail happy. And they would need more power, which would just make them more lively. If this were Sports Hard, then the FF that I'm using would probably only need 420 PP or less, and would be fun to drive again.

So, this may just be the wrong week for me to try.

In the meantime, I'm tempted to see if I can find an all-wheel drive. But it needs to be one with less understeer than my FF.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Something else that has dawned on me, this week you are using Comfort Mediums. You've really narrowed the talent band. For me to keep up, I need my car to go faster, and part of the problem is, now with 451 PP, it spins its wheels through first, second, and into third.

I'm also trying to use an FF, because the FR/MRs that I tested were a bit tail happy. And they would need more power, which would just make them more lively. If this were Sports Hard, then the FF that I'm using would probably only need 420 PP or less, and would be fun to drive again.

So, this may just be the wrong week for me to try.

In the meantime, I'm tempted to see if I can find an all-wheel drive. But it needs to be one with less understeer than my FF.

Sorry Vol, if you were here a day earlier, you would have seen my post about FF's and my wheelspin issue. If you're struggling for grip, I'd suggest a 4wd Premium like an Impreza or Evo. The Impreza is particularly sharp right out of the box. Good luck. If you can't make it this week, we'll probably be back on SH tires next week:tup:

EDIT: I'm gonna make like a baby and head out until Sunday...have a good weekend everyone!!

 

[TrackBound7]

Volz, having raced with you before, I think you will find you fit right in with this group. Don't give up just yet.

 

[TrackBound7]

Nice combo for this upcoming week JP. Working on 2 vehicles, the Chevy SSR and the 07 NC roadster (Miata). Both will be mid 390pp, both pretty fun to drive. Will have to test a little more.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

So much better with an AWD. I think I have a car. I'm breaking it in now, so I'll have to test some more later when it won't grow anymore.