Do you believe in God?

[TheCracker]

Every year for at least the last two generations, our motorized transportation system kills and mames thousands of people in the course of that participation. Many of whom are completely innocent of any wrong doing in that process.
You like probably everyone on this site, freely, willfully and purposely participate in that system that will result in those deaths and injuries.
Why?
Because the reward is considered worth the risk.
God is only proceeding with mankind under the same principle, albeit on another level.

Humans use transport to:

• Commute
• Transport groceries and other produce
• Transport people
• Sometimes to drive just for the hell of it

So your god uses mankind to achieve mundane tasks or just plays with their lives for a bit of entertainment? Nice.

 

[dylansan]

Most people drive because there is no other option. You can bet that if I were an omnipotent being, I would find a way to travel that didn't pose risk to others or pollute the environment or anything. I can't because I'm human. What's god's excuse?

 

[TenEightyOne]

if I were an omnipotent being, I would find a way to travel that didn't pose risk to others or pollute the environment or anything.

No you wouldn't, you'd be omnipresent too, remember?

 

[dylansan]

Okay, I'll send down a human version of myself to drive for your sins instead.

 

[GBO Possum]

You like to blame God for creating humans, and for humans to become violent. That doesn't make any sense if this is how you see it.

@DCP, you wrote the above in response to one of my posts.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't blame your god for anything. Just as I don't blame Jupiter, Zeus, Krishna, Belenus, Lir, Volos and thousands of others for anything which might happen. And I give no credit to Vasant for this lovely spring.

I don't blame any imaginary fictional characters for anything that happens in the real world. Not even General Juma or Auric Goldfinger.

To quote you again

That doesn't make any sense if this is how you see it.

 

[huskeR32]

I still exercise free will all the time

So you don't think that god is omniscient?

 

[FoRiZon]

Hey! A useful post here about what people said its on bible but actually isnt:
http://www.cracked.com/article_22346_5-stories-everyone-assumes-are-in-bible-but-arent.html

Also, i like one comment there:
"Most fundamentalist Christians treats bible like a terms and conditions: they skip it to the "i agree" part."

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff
This comment just reminded me of something related to the flood conversation.
Every year for at least the last two generations, our motorized transportation system kills and mames thousands of people in the course of that participation. Many of whom are completely innocent of any wrong doing in that process.
You like probably everyone on this site, freely, willfully and purposely participate in that system that will result in those deaths and injuries.
Why?
Because the reward is considered worth the risk.
God is only proceeding with mankind under the same principle, albeit on another level.

The convenience of driving does not justify any of their deaths. My friend and his were run over by a truck... his friend died. The guy's death was not justified by the truck driver's convenience, or mine. It wasn't justified at all, it was injustice. It was also an accident (possibly criminally negligent, but an accident nonetheless).

The fact that the ends never justify the means does not mean that the means cannot be justified. The beginnings justify the means (when the means are justified). If you set out not to violate the life or property of the people around you, then your action of driving on the road is justified. If you hit someone, that act is not justified by your desire to drive (and this is how the US legal system sees it as well). You may have property taken from you to compensate the people you wronged by hitting. If you hit them intentionally, you may have your liberty taken as well.

To flip it around, depriving the nation of the freedom to drive vehicles in order to save the lives of the potential victims would also be wrong. Curtailing the liberty of people who have done no wrong is not justified by the desire to save lives. The ends do not justify the means. If your law sets out not infringing the rights of innocent people it is justified. If it does not, no amount of good results will justify it.

So the principles your God is proceeding with are fundamentally flawed. The fact that you don't realize that is potentially a product of your obtaining your understanding of morality from a fundamentally immoral God and book.

 

[JKgo]

Hey! A useful post here about what people said its on bible but actually isnt:
http://www.cracked.com/article_22346_5-stories-everyone-assumes-are-in-bible-but-arent.html

Also, i like one comment there:
"Most fundamentalist Christians treats bible like a terms and conditions: they skip it to the "i agree" part."

....A great read. Was laughing pretty hard. Thanks!

 

[CodeRedR51]

Why was it done the way it was?
I do not know.
I can only assume he had a good reason.

Worshiping a "god" that committed mass murder is ok?

Then we turn this mass murder into children's stories and even build a theme park for it?

You realize how messed up that is?

 

[CodeRedR51]

Sorry for the DP, found this amusing from a facebook post:

I for one an glad that brave patriots like Franklin Graham are standing up to protect my freedom of religion. I'm tired of being oppressed and persecuted by not being able to exercise my religious tenets. I do need some advice, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

-- I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 : 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

-- I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15 : 19-24 ). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

-- Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

-- I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

-- A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

-- Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

-- My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

[MisterWhiskers]

Worshiping a "god" that committed mass murder is ok?

Then we turn this mass murder into children's stories and even build a theme park for it?

You realize how messed up that is?

God didn't commit mass murder. In short, we have free will. You can drink, do drugs, commit genocide, etc. God can't step in. This is all a test. Would you rather be controlled or have free will? Have free will, right? So we have to prove ourselves.

 

[Scaff]

God didn't commit mass murder. In short, we have free will. You can drink, do drugs, commit genocide, etc. God can't step in. This is all a test. Would you rather be controlled or have free will? Have free will, right? So we have to prove ourselves.

Umm the OT would disagree quite a bit.

The flood wiped out everyone on Earth (bar Noah, his family and an ark full of animals with 0.08 ft2 a piece) and Sodom and Gomorrah didn't fair to well.

 

[Spurgy 777]

God didn't commit mass murder. In short, we have free will. You can drink, do drugs, commit genocide, etc. God can't step in. This is all a test. Would you rather be controlled or have free will? Have free will, right? So we have to prove ourselves.

So supposedly flooding the entire planet and killing practically every living thing isn't mass murder? Right.

 

[Exorcet]

You can... commit genocide, etc. God can't step in.

Thus he doesn't care about free will because he lets people's free will be violated continuously.

This is all a test.

With what purpose? God is supposed to know the results already.

Would you rather be controlled or have free will? Have free will, right? So we have to prove ourselves.

I'd rather have free will in a world where I'm not at the mercy of everything around me. Something so simple a human can come up with, but apparently God can't.

The free will excuse doesn't explain anything because God clearly doesn't care in the first place (forces people to go to hell) and free will doesn't imply allowing evil to happen.

 

[gokartman78]

With the flood, what was used to feed the carnivore's on the ark?

Also, surely if the whole world was flooded it would have killed most trees and plants, how did all the trees and plants in the world come back quickly enough to provide a stable food source for the rest of the species on the ark? (The ones that survived being used as food for the carnivores).

 

[jimipitbull]

Why didn't Noah save the dinosaurs?

 

[Dennisch]

Why didn't Noah save the dinosaurs?

Dinosaurs aren't real. They are just put in the ground to test faith.

Duh.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Humans use transport to:

• Commute
• Transport groceries and other produce
• Transport people
• Sometimes to drive just for the hell of it.

Reasons for participation are irrelevant.
Death and injuries will result.

So your god uses mankind to achieve mundane tasks or just plays with their lives for a bit of entertainment? Nice.

To the contrary, as with the death toll from motorized transport, it is anything but a game or entertainment.
Again the principle is the same, albeit on another level.

Most people drive because there is no other option. You can bet that if I were an omnipotent being, I would find a way to travel that didn't pose risk to others or pollute the environment or anything. I can't because I'm human. What's god's excuse?

There is always another option, but it may not facilitate what you seek to accomplish.
That's the whole point.

The convenience of driving does not justify any of their deaths. My friend and his were run over by a truck... his friend died. The guy's death was not justified by the truck driver's convenience, or mine. It wasn't justified at all, it was injustice. It was also an accident (possibly criminally negligent, but an accident nonetheless).

All of that is irrelevant.
It is a given that due to the imperfect nature inherent in mankind, deaths and injuries will result.
You are part of that flawed group, but that does not stop you from participating.
Therefore you willfully take part in a system that causes death and injury and you cannot guarantee the next death or deaths caused will not be at your hand.
Yet you believe you are justified in doing so.
That being the case how can you legitimately judge God for executing judgement on a debased, out of hand situation to save mankind from complete destruction.
You may not agree with his method, but in reality you have no higher moral ground from which to judge.

The fact that the ends never justify the means does not mean that the means cannot be justified. The beginnings justify the means (when the means are justified). If you set out not to violate the life or property of the people around you, then your action of driving on the road is justified. If you hit someone, that act is not justified by your desire to drive (and this is how the US legal system sees it as well). You may have property taken from you to compensate the people you wronged by hitting. If you hit them intentionally, you may have your liberty taken as well.

While civil penalties are in place to encourage responsibility, and provide justice to the injured parties, that does not eliminate the risk. The risk goes with the territory.
In the same way when God decided to give us autonomy, he assumed the risk just like you do everytime you drive.
And like you, he has to be prepared to deal with the consequences, albeit again on a higher level.

To flip it around, depriving the nation of the freedom to drive vehicles in order to save the lives of the potential victims would also be wrong. Curtailing the liberty of people who have done no wrong is not justified by the desire to save lives. The ends do not justify the means. If your law sets out not infringing the rights of innocent people it is justified. If it does not, no amount of good results will justify it.

Precisely.
So in the same way God condemned the guilty(read those verses again)from mankind and perpetuated the opportunity for those who came after(all of us) to have a chance to exercise our autonomy, in hopefully a better way.

So the principles your God is proceeding with are fundamentally flawed. The fact that you don't realize that is potentially a product of your obtaining your understanding of morality from a fundamentally immoral God and book.

To the contrary, by your comments and actions you appear to operate under the same principle here that he does.
The only difference is perhaps you haven't encountered a consequence of catastrophic proportions in your driving, like God did with our autonomy.

 

[GBO Possum]

There is always another option, but it may not facilitate what you seek to accomplish.
That's the whole point.

"Let them eat cake"

 

[DQuaN]

It is a given that due to the imperfect nature inherent in mankind, deaths and injuries will result.

You mean the imperfect nature that we are squishy watery sacks that can be easily injured or killed?

Imagine if some "perfect being" had created us like that... it would be some kind of cruel joke.

 

[JKgo]

...Well, at least this guy's a lot more articulate then that other dude....

 

[TenEightyOne]

In the same way when God decided to give us autonomy, he assumed the risk just like you do everytime you drive.
And like you, he has to be prepared to deal with the consequences, albeit again on a higher level.

What level exactly, and how do you know?

It is a given that due to the imperfect nature inherent in mankind, deaths and injuries will result.

What a peculiar thing to say... do you put Mankind in a class that differs from any other RNA/DNA evolved form, are "our" imperfections somehow unique? Or, in fact, does God accept the imperfections of all of us (seaweed, dolphins, algae, armadillos, rattlesnakes etc. etc. )? If the latter is the case then he did a peculiar job in creating us, I'd say.

 

[Exorcet]

All of that is irrelevant.
It is a given that due to the imperfect nature

Yes exactly. The reason why injuries are present in driving is because we're not able to come up with a perfect system. God being perfect should be able to, but hasn't, so right away it's seen that perfection doesn't actually apply to him, if he exists at all.

You are part of that flawed group, but that does not stop you from participating.
Therefore you willfully take part in a system that causes death and injury and you cannot guarantee the next death or deaths caused will not be at your hand.
Yet you believe you are justified in doing so.

Risk management. No one is looking to cause death (very much unlike God), they happen because of mistakes (should not be applicable to God).

That being the case how can you legitimately judge God for executing judgement on a debased, out of hand situation to save mankind from complete destruction.
You may not agree with his method, but in reality you have no higher moral ground from which to judge.

God has no moral ground to stand on at all, he is willingly causing needless death. If you want to use the driving analogy, God is the driver running over pedestrians and purposefully steering into other cars. He has no right to take someone's life yet does whenever he wants to.

In the same way when God decided to give us autonomy, he assumed the risk just like you do everytime you drive.
And like you, he has to be prepared to deal with the consequences, albeit again on a higher level.

God being perfect and all powerful cannot deal with risk. Also autonomy implies nothing about not intervening. All God has to protect autonomy is intervene when autonomy is violated (example, robbery). Instead God violates autonomy by himself (sending people to hell, demanding that people follow arbitrary laws, killing people, etc).

 

[DCP]

And yet murder rates across South Africa are 20% lower than they were a decade ago.Let's assume you're right. If that's the case, then you cannot claim that violence is better or worse today - so your statement that it is worse is not only false but knowingly so. That's what we call "a lie".

However, you're not right. Violent crime is tracked and the rates of violent crime (including, but not limited to, murder, rape, armed robbery, mugging and assault) are trending down in nearly every country on Earth and have been for over 20 years. The exceptions are countries with very low levels of violent crime and small populations where each crime causes a significant impact on crime statistics (Bhutan, for example) or countries with extremely high levels of violent crime (Mexico), which are a bit erratic.

So just like your early statement that animals are never gay, the concept that violence is worse now than ever is fundamentally false. You should be questioning who's feeding you this rubbish...

The scheme of mankind, fuelled by the deceiver. I trust in the Lord Jesus, who told us the end from the beginning, because He loves all of us, and favours those who understand what is going on in this fallen world.
This is all the beginning of sorrows. Your natural eyes only see what you desire them to see. Satan hates mankind, and is loving every bit of what he schemed for men to be blinded from salvation.
So again yes, your soul (where you get your conscious, absolute morality, and guilt of wrong doing) is what lives eternally, and right this moment, you know that you've handed it on a platter to satan, yet you don't even care, because he has convinced you that you came from an invisible explosion. No other logic, whether you disagree or not.

So therefore the bible is just based on your faith to believe in something without proof?

Citation required. Please check the Homosexuality Discussion Thread for that, and you'll see that it's the other way round.

There are no contradictions. When you find one, with your natural eyes, go and find the rebuttal, and read it with your heart. It's only you and those you follow, that will tell you there are contradictions. You follow the path of men, so it's quite obvious you will say the bible is contradicting itself. You love drowning in your sin, so obviously everything else will seem wrong to you.

1. First one is when Jesus is chatting to Satan, I'm not Satan. Second one is close as he is referring to the first of the Ten Commandments

2. So it only applies to Children now?

3. Holy Ghost, well that requires interpretation.

4. Flat out contradicts the matching Ten Commandment from the OT.

5. Yep OK with that one.

6 - 10. Also good but is that the correct translation as once again we have kill (NIV has it as Murder)

So yes I'm quite happy with some of these, a few require interpretation, one is having a chat with Satan and one it a total contraindication, and none of it is a single combined list. All (apart from the contradiction) refer back to the OT

Which once again, shows that the NT doesn't replace OT laws at all (as Matthew also confirms), with the sole exception that you can now pop to the pub on the Sabbath without getting stoned to death (just don't get too drunk).

You are a child of God the Father, whether your like it or not, but it's your choice if you want to become homeless forever.

You are made up of a mind, body and soul, and you are created in Gods image. Yep, you are also 3 in 1.
The mind and body dies, yet the soul is eternal, if you choose to believe in the scriptures.

ISIS couldn't care any less about Islam though

In 1990 there were 3 Islamic terrorist groups. Today their are 49. How many crusaders are there, killing and being killed for god, today?

Okay, I'll send down a human version of myself to drive for your sins instead.

The irony, don't believe in God and His inherent word, yet still fulfil His prophecy...

Worshiping a "god" that committed mass murder is ok?

Then we turn this mass murder into children's stories and even build a theme park for it?

You realize how messed up that is?

It is messed up when you serve satan unknowingly yes.
God hates sin. He had to destroy it to complete the plan of salvation. Has God done any destroying since the Cross, or is man doing it, even till today?
Don't blame God for your sins, instead, turn to Him to remove them from you.
His the Boss, and he makes the rules. You can follow his fired General Manager if you choose to though.

Umm the OT would disagree quite a bit.

The flood wiped out everyone on Earth (bar Noah, his family and an ark full of animals with 0.08 ft2 a piece) and Sodom and Gomorrah didn't fair to well.

He said, if you can find 5 righteous men, He won't destroy the city. Guess what. He found NO righteous men.
Sodom reminds me of Hollywood. Giving into marriages, fornication, lies, deceit, lust etc. Blaspheme is hectic.
They never use any other gods name in their acting, yet the one they are not supposed to use, they do.

Why didn't Noah save the dinosaurs?

He did. You will see that even up to the 16th century, people still saw dinosaurs. Many drawings of people fighting with dragons etc. I'm sure I said this before, that dinosaur, only appeared in the English dictionary in the late 1800s.
Fittingly, before that, it meant terrible lizard. Go figure, that bad boy satan again.

 

[TenEightyOne]

He did. You will see that even up to the 16th century, people still saw dinosaurs. Many drawings of people fighting with dragons etc. I'm sure I said this before, that dinosaur, only appeared in the English dictionary in the late 1800s.
Fittingly, before that, it meant terrible lizard. Go figure, that bad boy satan again.

Huh?

 

[The McMerc]

He did. You will see that even up to the 16th century, people still saw dinosaurs. Many drawings of people fighting with dragons etc. I'm sure I said this before, that dinosaur, only appeared in the English dictionary in the late 1800s. Fittingly, before that, it meant terrible lizard. Go figure, that bad boy satan again.

You're saying that dinosaurs were still around up until the 16th century? Please name any valid evidence you have that suggests they lived until then. Apart from a couple of sketchy sightings which could have easily been mistakes or fakes, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that dinosaurs lived up until when you claim they did. Think of the impact that would have on the world? Why don't we see them anymore? And just because the word "dinosaur" is in the English dictionary doesn't make it lose its original meaning. It still means "terrible lizard".

How can you ever be taken seriously if you're making claims like this?

 

[JockeP22]

It's a crazy world out there.
Let's hope our prayers are in good hands tonight.

 

[niky]

Well I have to disagree.
I have found that foundationally, as to motive and intent it fits our situation perfectly.

Really? So is it "death to all infidels" or love thy neighbor"? My copy isn't so clear on that, and I want to be sure whether to dust off the machete or the vibrator.

Huh?

If only moderators weren't cursed with omniscience, unable to ignore posts. I could feel brain cells dying as I read that one.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

What level exactly, and how do you know?

On the level of God to man and what that entails, as opposed to man to man.
How do I know what?

What a peculiar thing to say... do you put Mankind in a class that differs from any other RNA/DNA evolved form, are "our" imperfections somehow unique? Or, in fact, does God accept the imperfections of all of us (seaweed, dolphins, algae, armadillos, rattlesnakes etc. etc. )? If the latter is the case then he did a peculiar job in creating us, I'd say.

I would say, in a way he did too.

Yes exactly. The reason why injuries are present in driving is because we're not able to come up with a perfect system. God being perfect should be able to, but hasn't, so right away it's seen that perfection doesn't actually apply to him, if he exists at all.

We already have an almost perfect driving system. Or at least it eliminates most of the human element.
It is not in common use yet, but probably will be soon.
Its not about God being able too. It never has been.
Just as the almost perfect driving system is a progression of developement, so is the developement of mankind.
Everything is by the appointed time and season.

Risk management. No one is looking to cause death (very much unlike God), they happen because of mistakes (should not be applicable to God).

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

God has no moral ground to stand on at all, he is willingly causing needless death. If you want to use the driving analogy, God is the driver running over pedestrians and purposefully steering into other cars. He has no right to take someone's life yet does whenever he wants to.

I believe the insurance companies would really appreciate you, since "acts of God" are exempt from coverage.
They must believe he exists.

God being perfect and all powerful cannot deal with risk. Also autonomy implies nothing about not intervening. All God has to protect autonomy is intervene when autonomy is violated (example, robbery). Instead God violates autonomy by himself (sending people to hell, demanding that people follow arbitrary laws, killing people, etc).

God doesn't send anyone to hell anymore than the law sends someone to prison.
An individual's choices is what determines that.