Do you believe in God?

[jimipitbull]

Then provide a link to the areas of the report that "seem" to indicate your conclusions.

Here are all the findings from the public case studies to date https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/public-hearings/findings

Notice how they are all christian institutions?

Seems to indicate a culture of abuse. If there were only four breeding pairs of christians after the flood, as your bible suggests, then it's within reason to call it an inbred culture of abuse.

The way I see it, christians are very much like vampires, except not as cool. Well, except for Michael Jackson, because he was both. Apparently he liked to drink Jesus Juice. Whatever that means.

 

[Exorcet]

We already have an almost perfect driving system.

If it's almost perfect, it's still not perfect.

Just as the almost perfect driving system is a progression of developement, so is the developement of mankind.
Everything is by the appointed time and season.

You don't need to develop anything if you're all powerful though. Wish for it and it is. If there was a God of Biblical proportions there would not be a plan, things would have just gone right from the start.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

There are risks involved with driving, and there isn't anything we can do about that accept be wary of them. Yes, injuries can happen, but when they do it's because something has gone wrong. This is totally opposite of the case with God as he causes suffering on a whim.

I believe the insurance companies would really appreciate you, since "acts of God" are exempt from coverage.
They must believe he exists.

Whether they do or don't, it doesn't really matter.

God doesn't send anyone to hell anymore than the law sends someone to prison.
An individual's choices is what determines that.

Laws don't send people to prison right, but law enforcement does. Whether they are just or corrupt is independent of that. If God didn't send people to hell, then anyone would be able to enter heaven. Christianity clearly states otherwise. There is no choice involved if you don't actually get to choose or your options are given via ultimatum.

Believing in God has nothing to do with how you would want to spend an afterlife, which is why it doesn't make any sense to say that there is a choice involved in Christianity. It makes even less sense when you consider that people don't even believe in the alleged choice which means it is impossible for them to even decide on anything. There isn't a choice to make regarding God until he proves that he exists.

What would it change? You going to give up your sins and turn to Christ because terrible lizards were still around up until a few centuries ago? Please man.

You're not going to convince anyone of non sense, so actually proving that the Bible has something right would go quite a ways to changing someone's mind. If you're interested in having people accept your views, provide evidence.

We don't say how can man be taken seriously, we know man can't be taken seriously, because he wants his ego, power, money, fame and fortune, or he wants to know his Creator. No inbetweeners.

Untrue.

I have two sons, and I never stop to wonder why I love them. I would never ever give them up as a sacrifice for anything too. To understand that my Creator loved me so much, that He gave up His own Son, who willingly chose to dive in and rescue a fallen world, all because of love. I'm sorry to tell you, but a love like this, you will never understand in your present worldview.

Indeed, it's quite clear from logic that God doesn't understand love. What he calls love isn't. Killing someone for no reason is not love.

How fitting for a Father to have a conversation with His Son and say, "Son, I've created all of this for you. Anything you see here in this universe, is yours for eternity. Only for the Son to say, "thank you Father, but I want that blue and white planet, down there in the slum of the universe. They are lost, hurting, and in pain. I want them, because they need Me". Father says "You can't just show up Son, because then they will see who you are, and be forced to be with you.
Son says, "Then I will shed my blood and tears for them, so they can understand how much I love them"

Flawed logic. All Jesus would have had to do is "just show up" as a clearly divine figure. People would be able to then correctly deduce that a god did indeed exist, and no amount of free will would be lost in the process. Far less than is lost through God killing unjustly or deciding what to do with people after they die, against their will.

The fact that His suffering was slow and painful, humiliating and wicked, He shed His blood for me, and gave the world hope, and the greatest free gift, to re-unite with the Father.

It was a completely pointless act since the entire reason that the world was supposedly broken in the first place was God getting it wrong in Eden and then punishing people for his mistake.

As for satan, he is full of pride, "sound familiar", and unfortunately men rather be with satan. All good and well. It's a free choice, and no one is forced. Satan wants to destroy mankind.

And instead of doing something useful, like removing Satan, God commits suicide (which he allows) which accomplishes nothing.

God is giving us a chance the way He intended for us to live, without sin and suffering.

If he was interested in that at all, suffering wouldn't exist.

Look how He aligns the sun moon and stars, to give us signals, to warn us that He is at the door.

The sun, moon, and stars contain about as much of a message as scribbling by a 2 month old with a pen, probably less. There is no message in random motions of a collection of gravitationally bound masses.

There is nothing to prove, or to prove to. Sin death and suffering must come to an end.

No, something must be proven to be relevant. If God isn't intelligent enough to realize that, then he doesn't seem like a good leader figure (not that he would deserve a position of leadership in the first place, creating someone doesn't mean you own them).

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here are all the findings from the public case studies to date https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/public-hearings/findings

Notice how they are all christian institutions?

Seems to indicate a culture of abuse. If there were only four breeding pairs of christians after the flood, as your bible suggests, then it's within reason to call it an inbred culture of abuse.

The way I see it, christians are very much like vampires, except not as cool. Well, except for Michael Jackson, because he was both. Apparently he liked to drink Jesus Juice. Whatever that means.

Thanks, but I'm not going to go through the report and make your case for you. Of course there are more Christian cases of abuse in total because the country has historically been overwhelmingly Christian. So were you referring to the absolute number of cases involving Christians or the more relevant comparitive rates of abuse?

As for "my bible", unless you find a quote of me declaring my faith of choice, you an drop that assertion as well.

 

[Mike458]

The scheme of mankind, fuelled by the deceiver. I trust in the Lord Jesus, who told us the end from the beginning, because He loves all of us, and favours those who understand what is going on in this fallen world.

Favors who exactly? And who is the deceiver exactly? I highly doubt you've ever stepped out into the real world and seen what HUMAN advancements are making. If this God was real, how can you explain disease? Or prayers not being answered? Rape? Genocide? Evolution? World wars? Death?

There are no contradictions. When you find one, with your natural eyes, go and find the rebuttal, and read it with your heart. It's only you and those you follow, that will tell you there are contradictions. You follow the path of men, so it's quite obvious you will say the bible is contradicting itself. You love drowning in your sin, so obviously everything else will seem wrong to you.

Citation required.

You are a child of God the Father, whether your like it or not, but it's your choice if you want to become homeless forever.

Please explain why Chistians and other religious people are homeless. Do you do anything to help them? In fact, let me give you a scenario: You come across a homeless Christian person. Do you help them? What if it was an atheist homeless person? Do you help? Their religion shouldn't make a difference.

You are made up of a mind, body and soul, and you are created in Gods image. Yep, you are also 3 in 1.
The mind and body dies, yet the soul is eternal, if you choose to believe in the scriptures.

Citation required. So why don't you stone homosexuals, rebellious children, anyone who doesn't believe in God, and kill anyone who goes against you?

In 1990 there were 3 Islamic terrorist groups. Today their are 49. How many crusaders are there, killing and being killed for god, today?

Well, what if there was a world with no religion? This would have never happened. In fact, think about that for a moment. And please answer me, not try and skip the question:

What if there was a world with no religon?

The irony, don't believe in God and His inherent word, yet still fulfil His prophecy...

What prophecy, may I ask?

It is messed up when you serve satan unknowingly yes.
God hates sin. He had to destroy it to complete the plan of salvation. Has God done any destroying since the Cross, or is man doing it, even till today?
Don't blame God for your sins, instead, turn to Him to remove them from you.
His the Boss, and he makes the rules. You can follow his fired General Manager if you choose to though.

So... God hates homosexuality, God hates polyester, God hates the theory of evolution, God hates bisexuality, God hates rebellious children...

There's quite a lot of things God hates!

He said, if you can find 5 righteous men, He won't destroy the city. Guess what. He found NO righteous men.
Sodom reminds me of Hollywood. Giving into marriages, fornication, lies, deceit, lust etc. Blaspheme is hectic.
They never use any other gods name in their acting, yet the one they are not supposed to use, they do.

Well, isn't that what humans are supposed to do? All of these mellennia, for pretty much all of the earth's lifetime, we were made to have sex and reproduce. However, thanks to human advancements, we can replace that purpose in life with our own.

He did. You will see that even up to the 16th century, people still saw dinosaurs. Many drawings of people fighting with dragons etc. I'm sure I said this before, that dinosaur, only appeared in the English dictionary in the late 1800s.
Fittingly, before that, it meant terrible lizard. Go figure, that bad boy satan again.

Citation required.

 

[jimipitbull]

Thanks, but I'm not going to go through the report and make your case for you. Of course there are more Christian cases of abuse in total because the country has historically been overwhelmingly Christian. So were you referring to the absolute number of cases involving Christians or the more relevant comparitive rates of abuse?

As for "my bible", unless you find a quote of me declaring my faith of choice, you an drop that assertion as well.

So you wanted evidence, but now you don't want to read it?

As for your bible, you seem very defensive about all things christian, but prefer not to identify as one in public.
My guess is you are
a) attacking the man, not the ball
b) a closet christian
c) both

Either way, I'm sorry for tarnishing you with the bible brush.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So you wanted evidence, but now you don't want to read it?

As for your bible, you seem very defensive about all things christian, but prefer not to identify as one in public.
My guess is you are
a) attacking the man, not the ball
b) a closet christian
c) both

Either way, I'm sorry for tarnishing you with the bible brush.

Keep guessing. I already told you, I'm not going to make your case for you. I've also asked you once politely to not refer to the bible as "my bible" as I have never declared any religious affiliation on this site nor do I intend to.

You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

 

[The McMerc]

How do you even know there were oceans before the flood?
How do you even know if the water was salty or not?

Literally the first thing in the bible. Genesis 1: "Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water. So god made the vault separating the water from under the vault from the water above it."

 

[squadops]

Seems to indicate a culture of abuse. If there were only four breeding pairs of christians after the flood, as your bible suggests, then it's within reason to call it an inbred culture of abuse.

Of which you would be a part of, if the flood occurred.

 

[jimipitbull]

Of which you would be a part of, if the flood occurred.

With a midi-clorian count above 15,000 per cell, it's more likely I was conceived by the force.

Keep guessing. I already told you, I'm not going to make your case for you. I've also asked you once politely to not refer to the bible as "my bible" as I have never declared any religious affiliation on this site nor do I intend to.

I would have thought participating in a thread discussing belief in god would require a declaration of some description.

 

[Imari]

He did. You will see that even up to the 16th century, people still saw dinosaurs. Many drawings of people fighting with dragons etc.

Rofl.

So, your argument for dinosaurs is that there are pictures of dragons in books way back when? Have you seen modern childrens books? Or modern fantasy books? Or comics? If you believe them, today the earth is populated by superheroes, mutants with extraordinary powers, supervillians, vampires, wizards, and zombies.

What do you think happens when someone in 400 years takes Game of Thrones as an accurate depiction of current times?

This is where you're getting messed up, you don't seem to be able to separate fact from fiction.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Nope. It isn't justified.

In reality, that is correct.
You commited an injustice under the assumption of being justified.
Not exactly an impeccable moral standard from which to judge.

If it's almost perfect, it's still not perfect.

The point is even almost perfect removes most of the risk, but also the reward, if you enjoy driving.

You don't need to develop anything if you're all powerful though. Wish for it and it is. If there was a God of Biblical proportions there would not be a plan, things would have just gone right from the start.

You need to go back and view the posts discussing autonomy.
There is no right from the start once that is instituted.

There are risks involved with driving, and there isn't anything we can do about that accept be wary of them. Yes, injuries can happen, but when they do it's because something has gone wrong. This is totally opposite of the case with God as he causes suffering on a whim.

You can not participate.
Thats the alternative.
What suffering on a whim do you contribute to God?

Whether they do or don't, it doesn't really matter.

So it doesn't really matter to you who believes in God?
Even those who are experts at risk and reward?

Laws don't send people to prison right, but law enforcement does. Whether they are just or corrupt is independent of that. If God didn't send people to hell, then anyone would be able to enter heaven. Christianity clearly states otherwise. There is no choice involved if you don't actually get to choose or your options are given via ultimatum.

It can be considered an ultimatum if you so choose.
However under the circmstances it is more than fair and reasonable.
You can exchange your rags for a crown.
The only way under autonomy to eliminate the corrupting influence of Satan is to be offered the power of God so
you can be aligned with him and retain a corrupt free existence in the future kingdom.
That hardly sounds like an ultimatum, but rather the deal of a lifetime.

Believing in God has nothing to do with how you would want to spend an afterlife, which is why it doesn't make any sense to say that there is a choice involved in Christianity. It makes even less sense when you consider that people don't even believe in the alleged choice which means it is impossible for them to even decide on anything. There isn't a choice to make regarding God until he proves that he exists.

Believing in God is to benefit you now as well as later.
There is no further proof in God, that hasn't been already provided.
That is for our benefit as well.
A word to the wise is sufficient.

However you do. Since you cannot tell whether the Bible is the word of God or a deception from Satan, you may well be delivering your soul to Satan completely unwittingly on the promise of a reward. Pity you're not allowed to question it, really.

You are assuming he cannot tell, based on your assumption, that it is not distinguishable.
In reality you have no idea whether he can or not.
He has testified along with myself, as well as others that the discernment is empowered by the Holy Spirit and in conjunction with the Bible.
At the least, you would have to receive this additional dimension to determine if one can tell or not tell, in order to render an informed opinion on the matter.

 

[Famine]

You are assuming he cannot tell, based on your assumption, that it is not distinguishable.
In reality you have no idea whether he can or not.
He has testified along with myself, as well as others that the discernment is empowered by the Holy Spirit and in conjunction with the Bible.

He has admitted - as now have you - that the he only knows it's God because God told him so. If Satan was in fact deceiving you into thinking he's God, that would be exactly the kind of thing he'd say - and you'd never know because it'd be Satan pretending to be God telling you he's God.

The Bible calls him "The Great Deceiver". What greater deception could there be?

 

[Exorcet]

The point is even almost perfect removes most of the risk, but also the reward, if you enjoy driving.

The reward doesn't matter here, you're comparing God to driving. One and only one of those is supposed to be completely perfect, so it doesn't make sense to say that they are similar when it comes to harm caused. God can only cause harm on purpose. Driving accidents are accidents.

You need to go back and view the posts discussing autonomy.
There is no right from the start once that is instituted.

Free will doesn't change things, God could reveal himself directly and not impact free will. God could have made humans perfect and not impact free will.

You can not participate.
Thats the alternative.
What suffering on a whim do you contribute to God?

You can choose not to drive in response to the risks, yes. From a moral point of view though, that's no different than just driving carefully. Again issues with driving arise from it being imperfect. People are not looking to cause suffering by participating.

Suffering from God includes, well all suffering as what happened in Eden was down to him. He made a test that he knew humans would fail, the test was arbitrary and pointless in the first place, and he included people who were not even there (all descendents) in the punishment.

So it doesn't really matter to you who believes in God?
Even those who are experts at risk and reward?

No it does not. What matters is evidence.

It can be considered an ultimatum if you so choose.

It can't be considered anything but an ultimatum. If you don't do as God says, he gets rid of you. There isn't even a reason to take the ultimatum seriously because there is no proof. To be sent to hell against your will is basically a joke.

However under the circmstances it is more than fair and reasonable.
You can exchange your rags for a crown.

When God is the reason you're in rags in the first place it seems less generous.

The only way under autonomy to eliminate the corrupting influence of Satan is to be offered the power of God so
you can be aligned with him and retain a corrupt free existence in the future kingdom.
That hardly sounds like an ultimatum, but rather the deal of a lifetime.

If God was not all powerful it might sound like a deal, but Christianity claims otherwise, so the deal becomes completely pointless. All God needs to do is snap his fingers and move all of Earth to heaven for a perfect existence. Instead he chooses to leave people in suffering.

Believing in God is to benefit you now as well as later.
There is no further proof in God, that hasn't been already provided.
That is for our benefit as well.
A word to the wise is sufficient.

Proof is the only thing that is sufficient. God either is or isn't there. There is no reason to think he is there without proof.

 

[jimipitbull]

If God was not all powerful it might sound like a deal, but Christianity claims otherwise, so the deal becomes completely pointless. All God needs to do is snap his fingers and move all of Earth to heaven for a perfect existence. Instead he chooses to leave people in suffering.




Proof is the only thing that is sufficient. God either is or isn't there. There is no reason to think he is there without proof.

The first commandments indicate there are other gods, but you can't have them. Yet he refers to himself as the only god - singular, in third person. I have done some research on autistic spectrum disorders and believe it's symptomatic of Asperger Syndrome.

But that's only if he actually exists.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

He has admitted - as now have you - that the he only knows it's God because God told him so. If Satan was in fact deceiving you into thinking he's God, that would be exactly the kind of thing he'd say - and you'd never know because it'd be Satan pretending to be God telling you he's God.

The Bible calls him "The Great Deceiver". What greater deception could there be?

None that I can think of.
While your assumption is certainly logical to a degree, it doesn't fit probable.
If there are two beings and one created the other, for the created being to overcome, dupe and completely lock out the Creator is possible, but not probable.
Particularly again if the Creator is more powerful than the created being.
Which is what the Bible claims.
Otherwise one would have to assume that the Creator would abandon our plight and allow the created being to perpetuate the deception.
However that would only serve to strengthen the created beings hold on us, which does not sound logical or probable.
Further one would have to assume that the Creator creates with no provision for contengencies of this magnitude.
That does not fit logical or probable either.
Under Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Omnipotent attributes it is not only illogical and improbable but impossible without consent.
To paraphrase the Bible "Can the pot say to the potter what will be what".
Likewise when two entities are at odds there is always identifying factors to differentiate between them and they exist somewhere.

Now in this case they are claimed to be in the spirit realm.
And we are born under the Satanic spiritual influence due to the fall of Adam and Eve.
And the only way out from under that influence is through a spiritual rebirth afforded through Jesus Christ.
Having accepted and recieved that,(Holy Spirit) it is unmistakable as to the perceptable conscious difference that, the presence of it provides. Among which is a witness to and revelation of the Bible and the spiritual realm.
And in opposition to all carnal sinful practices.
Now if it is a deception, it is certainly doing God a favor since it backs him up at every turn.
That being the case at least as far as Biblical perspective, it is in complete harmony with the logic presented there. So it is not based on God told me so, neither does it remove your free will choice or unduly influence it.
Thats the biggest reason for it being a non deception IMO.
You can choose to trust in and rely on it or not to.
However I would caution you that it is relational covenant, so somewhat like cheating on your wife, there may be some adverse consequences to ignoring it.

As I said, you would have to recieve it, to judge first hand if you think it is a deception.

 

[Famine]

None that I can think of.

So then one would imagine if he did just that, he'd be deserving of the epithet "Great Deceiver" then?

While your assumption is certainly logical to a degree, it doesn't fit probable.
If there are two beings and one created the other, for the created being to overcome, dupe and completely lock out the Creator is possible, but not probable.
Particularly again if the Creator is more powerful than the created being.

That assumes that the created being needs to overcome its creator. Who is to say it's not God's will? After all, he did allow the very same being to tempt his own son in the wilderness - and since some say that the son is an aspect of God himself, that would suggest that God allowed Satan to tempt God himself. What would the reason for permitting that to happen be?

It turns out that the ineffable will of your deity really is that. If he allows himself to be needlessly tormented by his own creation that he could have willed away in a trice, why would you assume that he wouldn't allow the same creation to needlessly torment men by serving you up a holy book purporting to be the word of God and instructing you on how to worship God (but not question it) that's really instruction on how to worship Satan?

No power struggle needs to be invoked - it could simply be the will of God to have Satan deceive you into thinking the Bible is the unquestionable Word of God when it isn't.

Perhaps God gave us free will so that we did question the Bible when it says we mustn't question it, as a path to see past the tricks of Satan...

 

[Imari]

If there are two beings and one created the other, for the created being to overcome, dupe and completely lock out the Creator is possible, but not probable.

But it's not about whether Satan can dupe the Creator. It's about whether he can dupe a human. Given that humans can be duped by other humans, and that Satan is presumably more powerful than any human, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to dupe any human he feels like.

For all we know, God is up there saying "Satan, I really wish you'd stop messing with those humans. Some of them actually take you seriously when you pretend to be me. It was quite funny as a sort of parody to start with, and you do do a good impersonation of me, especially when I get all huffy, but it's really getting a bit out of hand. Look, some of them are actually killing other humans over this junk you had them write down. Can you not go down there and explain that it was all just a bit of fun? I'm super busy this millenium, and I'm just not going to have the time to set them straight myself."

When you get all your knowledge third- or fourth-hand from a single source, you have absolutely no idea what is right and what is wrong. You might as well be guessing.

...which does not sound logical or probable...
That does not fit logical or probable either...it is not only illogical and improbable but impossible...

Are you actually trying to use logic to prove what God would and wouldn't do or allow?

You're aware than an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being is illogical in the first place? You cannot use logic to prove anything about such a being.

Now in this case they are claimed to be in the spirit realm.
And we are born under the Satanic spiritual influence due to the fall of Adam and Eve.
And the only way out from under that influence is through a spiritual rebirth afforded through Jesus Christ.
Having accepted and recieved that,(Holy Spirit) it is unmistakable as to the perceptable conscious difference that, the presence of it provides. Among which is a witness to and revelation of the Bible and the spiritual realm.
And in opposition to all carnal sinful practices.
Now if it is a deception, it is certainly doing God a favor since it backs him up at every turn.
That being the case at least as far as Biblical perspective, it is in complete harmony with the logic presented there.

Circular logic is circular.

The Bible is from God because the Bible agrees with the things that God says in the Bible. Nice one.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

So then one would imagine if he did just that, he'd be deserving of the epithet "Great Deceiver" then?

No, he would be deserving of the epithet "Omnipotent Deciever" if he managed it without consent, being subject to God who is alledgedly "Omnipotent " and the other Os.
"Great Deceiver" is certainly more consistent under that circumstance, being subject to God.

That assumes that the created being needs to overcome its creator. Who is to say it's not God's will?

Thats not an assumption.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

At the least he declared he would be equal with God.
Obviously God wasn't big on that.

After all, he did allow the very same being to tempt his own son in the wilderness - and since some say that the son is an aspect of God himself, that would suggest that God allowed Satan to tempt God himself. What would the reason for permitting that to happen be?

It had to be done that way to accomplish the redemptive plan.
Jesus was God in a man's body. Subject to the same temptations we are, yet did not sin.
That paid the price for the sin of all mankind.

It turns out that the ineffable will of your deity really is that. If he allows himself to be needlessly tormented by his own creation that he could have willed away in a trice, why would you assume that he wouldn't allow the same creation to needlessly torment men by serving you up a holy book purporting to be the word of God and instructing you on how to worship God (but not question it) that's really instruction on how to worship Satan?

Thats totally inconsistent with his claims.
Not to mention he wouldn't have to do anything to get us to worship Satan.
We do a bang up job with that one already.

No power struggle needs to be invoked - it could simply be the will of God to have Satan deceive you into thinking the Bible is the unquestionable Word of God when it isn't.

Whats in that for Satan.
He gets no power, no glory, no nothing.
Nah, doesn't add up.

Your hypothetical theme on this has no value, no purpose, no motive, no consistency.
No reasonable logic for being.

 

[Famine]

No, he would be deserving of the epithet "Omnipotent Deciever" if he managed it without consent

And since the rest of my post covered why it doesn't have to have been achieved without God's consent (or at least God turning a blind eye to it, as he is often seen to do), that's not really relevant...

Thats not an assumption.

It certainly is, and your Biblical quote doesn't address it in any way.

It had to be done that way to accomplish the redemptive plan.
Jesus was God in a man's body. Subject to the same temptations we are, yet did not sin.
That paid the price for the sin of all mankind.

And we're men in men's bodies. Perhaps the temptation of the Bible has to be done this way to accomplish your redemption.

Thats totally inconsistent with his claims.

His claims where?

Oh wait, in the Bible!

Not to mention he wouldn't have to do anything to get us to worship Satan.
We do a bang up job with that one already.

Really? There's nearly 2 billion Christians on the planet, who all think they're worshipping God. That would seem to lend an air of usefulness to the deception of the Bible.

Whats in that for Satan.
He gets no power, no glory, no nothing.
Nah, doesn't add up.

What does Satan get out of any deception?

Are you suggesting that deities derive power from people worshipping them?

Your hypothetical theme on this has no value, no purpose, no motive, no consistency.
No reasonable logic for being.

Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money or power. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Satan would get just as much out of deceiving 2 billion people to worship him as he would out of getting 1 person to - and at the moment your only counter to this is that you know that the Bible is the work of God and not Satan is because the Bible says it is...

 

[Imari]

We do a bang up job with that one already.

Speak for yourself. You do a better job of worshipping Satan than most people on the planet, you at least acknowledge his existence.

The other 5 billion of us don't even think he's real, and so worshipping him isn't an option at all.

 

[dylansan]

There's a common technique in logic which allows you to prove something by starting with the assumption that it isn't true. Essentially, you start with the negation of a statement, use known facts to make conclusions, and as soon as you reach a contradiction, you know your negated statement is false, so the original statement must be true. This method forms the basis of most proofs.

As a result, if the bible is true and not a deception, we should be able to start with the assumption that it is a deception, and use known facts to reach a contradiction. You can't use any facts that rely on the bible being true, since you're starting by assuming it's not.

Can you do it? This method is nice because it prevents circular reasoning.

 

[Exorcet]

Thats totally inconsistent with his claims.
Not to mention he wouldn't have to do anything to get us to worship Satan.
We do a bang up job with that one already.

"We" not including the majority of the human population since they don't care about Satan. Only Christians and a subset of satanists (since half of them don't believe in Satan anyway) would.

Whats in that for Satan.
He gets no power, no glory, no nothing.
Nah, doesn't add up.

What does Satan get from tying to defy an all powerful all knowing deity who has already said he will take care of Satan eventually?

Your hypothetical theme on this has no value, no purpose, no motive, no consistency.
No reasonable logic for being.

The Bible isn't much different from that.

 

[GBO Possum]

Have you watched the television play "God on Trial", by the BBC and WGBH Boston?

Set in Auschwitz during WW2, made in 2008. The entire play is nearly ninety minutes, however, the section on the verdict is just ten minutes. It deals with just a small portion of God's biblically recorded vileness, and sets it in a more modern setting of His betrayal of His own people.

Here is the verdict. It is very powerful.

 

[Danoff]

In reality, that is correct.
You commited an injustice under the assumption of being justified.
Not exactly an impeccable moral standard from which to judge.

Nope.

I never have been, and never will be under the assumption that hitting someone else's car randomly is a justified action.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

But it's not about whether Satan can dupe the Creator. It's about whether he can dupe a human. Given that humans can be duped by other humans, and that Satan is presumably more powerful than any human, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to dupe any human he feels like.

He not only has he still does.
Famine's hypothetical put forth the possibility of Satan in being the "Great Deciever" perpetuating the deception that he is God through the use of the Bible.

For all we know, God is up there saying "Satan, I really wish you'd stop messing with those humans. Some of them actually take you seriously when you pretend to be me. It was quite funny as a sort of parody to start with, and you do do a good impersonation of me, especially when I get all huffy, but it's really getting a bit out of hand. Look, some of them are actually killing other humans over this junk you had them write down. Can you not go down there and explain that it was all just a bit of fun? I'm super busy this millenium, and I'm just not going to have the time to set them straight myself."

That's not generally the case with an open rebellion.
It's usually a little more adversarial.

When you get all your knowledge third- or fourth-hand from a single source, you have absolutely no idea what is right and what is wrong. You might as well be guessing.

Assuming the main theme or points are not carried over.

Are you actually trying to use logic to prove what God would and wouldn't do or allow?

With regaurd to Famine's hypothetical, I was speculating on the possibilities with logic.

You're aware than an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being is illogical in the first place? You cannot use logic to prove anything about such a being.

Why not.
Even with unlimited power, presence, and knowledge, logic can still be used by such a being and I would expect it too.

Circular logic is circular.
The Bible is from God because the Bible agrees with the things that God says in the Bible. Nice one.

Thanks.
It's more a case of either the Bible is true or it isn't.
That recitation is an explanation of my experience concerning that.

Speak for yourself. You do a better job of worshipping Satan than most people on the planet, you at least acknowledge his existence.

Admittedly, I've done some in the past, but probably not what you imagine that to be.
Acknowledgement is not a form of worship but rather the first step in realizing the deception.

The other 5 billion of us don't even think he's real, and so worshipping him isn't an option at all.

They don't call him the "Great Deceiver" for nothing.

And since the rest of my post covered why it doesn't have to have been achieved without God's consent (or at least God turning a blind eye to it, as he is often seen to do), that's not really relevant..

Well let me put it this way, if the Bible is true, it certainly is.
If it is the ruse you speculate it might be, then no it isn't.

It certainly is, and your Biblical quote doesn't address it in any way.

Samething here.

And we're men in men's bodies. Perhaps the temptation of the Bible has to be done this way to accomplish your redemption.

Interesting concept, I'll give you that.
Remind me never to call you unimaginitive.

His claims where?Oh wait, in the Bible!Really?

Observant too.

There's nearly 2 billion Christians on the planet, who all think they're worshipping God.

Now we are back to assumption again.

That would seem to lend an air of usefulness to the deception of the Bible.

Useful for what purpose?

What does Satan get out of any deception?

The opportunity to stick it to God for one thing.
Falsely elevate his importance and his power.
Feed his pride and ego.
Make him feel like a BMOC.
Perpetuate his influence, and build his rep. among his cohorts.

Are you suggesting that deities derive power from people worshipping them?

Power, no.
Legitamacy, maybe.
In God's case I would say yes since it is strictly voluntary.
In Satans case, I would say no since it is cruel forced enslavement and in direct opposition to God.

Satan would get just as much out of deceiving 2 billion people to worship him as he would out of getting 1 person to -

I disagree completely. You don't give him much credit.
His greatest moment of opportunity was with Adam and Eve wherein he could bag all of mankind.
That has purpose, value, motive, and is reasonably logical.

 

[Famine]

Well let me put it this way, if the Bible is true, it certainly is.
If it is the ruse you speculate it might be, then no it isn't.

Why? Is it because you think that the qualities described of God in the Bible wouldn't allow it?

Remember - the key point here is that the Bible could be a deceptive work from Satan, so you cannot use the Bible or attributes assigned to God by the Bible as proof against that, because it could be a deception.

Useful for what purpose?

Luckily you then answered that for me:

The opportunity to stick it to God for one thing.
Falsely elevate his importance and his power.
Feed his pride and ego.
Make him feel like a BMOC.
Perpetuate his influence, and build his rep. among his cohorts.

So why would Satan want to hoodwink worshippers into worshipping him when they think they're worshipping God? What you just said - and the Bible is the tool for doing it.

I disagree completely. You don't give him much credit.
His greatest moment of opportunity was with Adam and Eve wherein he could bag all of mankind.
That has purpose, value, motive, and is reasonably logical.

Currently the Bible has snared just under one-third of mankind - so that would seem to be no less purposeful. I recall that the Bible includes an exhortation to spread the word of the Lord to all corners of the Earth - to bag, as you say, all of mankind...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Why? Is it because you think that the qualities described of God in the Bible wouldn't allow it?

Yes, it would be condoning a complete misrepresentation of God.

Remember - the key point here is that the Bible could be a deceptive work from Satan, so you cannot use the Bible or attributes assigned to God by the Bible as proof against that, because it could be a deception.

Remember the key point here is your hypothetical is more far fetched and has less basis for
logic than the Bible does.
I might also remind you, your entire premise for that speculation is based on Biblical assigned attributes for Satan.
So you can use them, but I can't?
You wouldn't try to take advantage of me would you?

So why would Satan want to hoodwink worshippers into worshipping him when they think they're worshipping God? What you just said - and the Bible is the tool for doing it.

There is only one big problem.
Satan doesn't elevate himself in any way by extolling the virtues of God.
He can't claim any of the credit for it, so it doesn't feed his ego or his pride.
Not only that but putting Biblical attributes aside, God doesn't get anything he would obviously be due.
Again that would be a losing proposition for both parties.

Currently the Bible has snared just under one-third of mankind - so that would seem to be no less purposeful. I recall that the Bible includes an exhortation to spread the word of the Lord to all corners of the Earth - to bag, as you say, all of mankind...

By the Biblical account he has all mankind less those saved out by the Bible.
He's doing a lot better by the numbers with the Biblical account than your hypothetical.
And he doesn't have to make God look good, or write a book for a third less patrons.
A few sentences with Eve and boom he's done.

Now I ask you, which is a better deal for Satan.

 

[sammy neuman]

As an Athiest, I serve nobody. Satan exists just as much as this god you speak of: they don't.

Since you state without qualification that neither God nor Satan exist, IMO you are a non-theist, not an atheist. Considerable effort has been expended in explaining the difference, show some respect.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

That is a most impressive Bible. Someone worked much harder than I would. Considering history in general, I would say that it conclusively demonstrates that People of the Book are just like the rest of humanity. That is (of course) if the contents are factual. I do notice that it is pretty much down to slavery and misogyny by the time we get to the new testament, and the only murders in the NT I can recall are Jesus ([Y'shua], Jewish, not a Christian), John the Baptist (Jewish), and Stephen (Jewish-Christian).

 

[JKgo]

My second The Usual Suspect reference in as many days. Whew.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Since you state without qualification that neither God nor Satan exist, IMO you are a non-theist, not an atheist. Considerable effort has been expended in explaining the difference, show some respect.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. T I can recall are Jesus ([Y'shua], Jewish, not a Christian), John the Baptist (Jewish), and Stephen (Jewish-Christian).

Doesn't matter to me what it is. It's all just a bunch of nonsense anyway.