Do you believe in God?

[Imari]

Why not.
Even with unlimited power, presence, and knowledge, logic can still be used by such a being and I would expect it too.

Let's start with a simple one.

Can God make a mountain so heavy that he cannot lift it?

It's more a case of either the Bible is true or it isn't.
That recitation is an explanation of my experience concerning that.

Except that you seem incapable of acknowledging the fact that your perception may be incorrect, and like all believers, you will only accept the perception of others who have come to the same conclusion as yourself.

For example, my experience is that the Bible is not correct, but my experience is of no value to you when you're deciding for yourself if the Bible is true or not. It doesn't help you reach the conclusion that you wish to reach.

Rational people make judgements from objective evidence, but that's not what you're doing.

Acknowledgement is not a form of worship but rather the first step in realizing the deception.

Certainly true.

If we can acknowledge that you simply admitting Satan's existence is not a form of worship, will you do the non-Christian population the kindness to stop implying that we're worshiping him by not acknowledging his existence?

It seems pretty clear to me that in order to worship something, you at the very least have to think that it's real.

 

[squadops]

Let's start with a simple one.

Can God make a mountain so heavy that he cannot lift it?

A simple paradox? lol, I'll go with St. Augustine's viewpoints on omnipotence.

 

[Imari]

A simple paradox? lol, I'll go with St. Augustine's viewpoints on omnipotence.

What, you mean this?

Augustine, in his City of God, argued, instead, that God could not do anything that would make God non-omnipotent:

For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.

If that's what is meant by omnipotence, then fine. But that merely demonstrates that there are limits on what God can do, and therefore it's not necessarily true that God can accomplish anything he wishes. Which is what most people tend to mean when they use omnipotence in casual terms.

When I say that an omnipotent being is beyond logic, I'm using omnipotent in the "can do anything" sense. Such a being would have to be outside of logic, because otherwise there are logical paradoxes to contend with, like the one I raised.

If people want to say that God's particular brand of "omnipotence" is something else, then let's define that so that we can understand exactly what God is or is not capable of. Then we can decide whether or not a being with such power would be subject to logic.

 

[eran0004]

I'd say that omnipotence actually means that a god can make a mountain so heavy that a god can't lift it, but a god can also lift a mountain that's so heavy that a god can't lift it.

After all, why would an omnipotent god be restricted by the boundaries of logic?

As for non-christians being worshippers of satan, that's not only total crap but it's also extremely insulting and provocative. If you want people to respect your right of following a religion, you should respect people's right of staying away from that religion.

 

[Spurgy 777]

As for non-christians being worshippers of satan, that's not only total crap but it's also extremely insulting and provocative. If you want people to respect your right of following a religion, you should respect people's right of staying away from that religion.

I'm pretty sure the point was that they worship satan more than atheists simply because they acknowledge his existence, which isn't the same as saying they worship satan.

 

[Famine]

Yes, it would be condoning a complete misrepresentation of God.

And why would God not allow that? He does, after all, apparently allow his characteristics to be represented differently in each of the different Christian religions, Judaism and Islam. And he appears on The Simpsons getting frustrated by Homer - and in several risque jokes.

If God exists, it seems he's just fine with being misrepresented - so the concept that the Bible might be a work of fiction by Satan misrepresenting God is unharmed by God's opinion of it.

Remember the key point here is your hypothetical is more far fetched and has less basis for
logic than the Bible does.

Actually the Satan-written Bible is exactly as verisimilitudinous as the God-written Bible.

One might argue more so - as it is consistent with the behaviours of the characters (deceitful Satan, aloof God who likes to play tricks on humans) and the inaccuracies it contains. Not to mention the requirement not to question it - good people have nothing to fear from questions.

I might also remind you, your entire premise for that speculation is based on Biblical assigned attributes for Satan.
So you can use them, but I can't?

Actually, Satan can use them, but you can't.

If you're seeking to prove that the Bible isn't a deception from Satan, you can't use what's printed in the Bible to do so because that could be a deception from Satan.

There is only one big problem.
Satan doesn't elevate himself in any way by extolling the virtues of God.
He can't claim any of the credit for it, so it doesn't feed his ego or his pride.

I wonder if you're familiar with the modern phenomenon of "trolls". They are people who get a great deal of enjoyment out of, often anonymously, sowing chaos* and causing confusion - for absolutely no tangible benefit of any kind. Or, as they say, "for the lulz" - because they aren't looking for anything rational, they just want to watch the world burn (as I already paraphrased).

Satan would be the ultimate troll then - misleading billions of people simply because it's funny...


*In Zoroastrianism, the devil isn't an entity at all, rather the concepts of decay and chaos...

 

[eran0004]

I'm pretty sure the point was that they worship satan more than atheists simply because they acknowledge his existence, which isn't the same as saying they worship satan.

The point was that people worship satan, even if they don't believe that such a thing as satan actually exists.

 

[Spurgy 777]

The point was that people worship satan, even if they don't believe that such a thing as satan actually exists.

Well that points clearly nonsense, you can't worship something if you don't acknowledge it's existence.

 

[jimipitbull]

Well that points clearly nonsense, you can't worship something if you don't acknowledge it's existence.

What if Satan tricked you into worshiping his idea of god?

 

[Spurgy 777]

What if Satan tricked you into worshiping his idea of god?

True, so I suppose anyone who worships anything could be worshiping satan, just as well I don't then

 

[squadops]

As for non-christians being worshippers of satan, that's not only total crap but it's also extremely insulting and provocative. If you want people to respect your right of following a religion, you should respect people's right of staying away from that religion.

Agreed, unfortunately there is enough of that going around this thread on both sides of the ball. Some Christians feel non believers are harmful to the human race and some atheists think the same towards Christians. Individuals are often held accountable for the actions of others by association, this is not limited to religion rather it creeps into many aspects of life.

I had a school teacher in the 3rd grade who loved to say "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the pollution".

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Let's start with a simple one.

Can God make a mountain so heavy that he cannot lift it?

Thats a presupposition that is completely speculative and has no application in reality.
Unless there is an application for that, then it's irrelevant.
I'll go you one better than that.
God should have under presupposition of Omnipotent been able to make man with autonomy, less the nasty consequences.
If it was possible he, still passed on it.
Personally, I do not think it possible.
Does that make God less than Omnipotent?
Perhaps, but again in reality it only matters what his range of power is in relation to me and that which he claims as his creation. In that sense he is Omnipotent.
Or concerning our application what are his powers, of what affect can it have on me.
Thats the only thing that is relevant.

Except that you seem incapable of acknowledging the fact that your perception may be incorrect, and like all believers, you will only accept the perception of others who have come to the same conclusion as yourself.

Not exactly.
I am relating from personal experience and the commonality of others with the same experience.
The question is: "Is my personal experience as well as their's legitimate, real, a reality?"
"Or is an explanation of it by someone else more real?"
Now since it does not get any more personal than the experience we are relating,
I must say you have your work cut out for you, in convincing me otherwise.
Yes, likely "mission impossible".
Your explanation must convince me that a functioning, dimensional reality that operates within me
is not a reality.
Good luck.
BTW it is not a conclusion except in the sense of it being a reality.

For example, my experience is that the Bible is not correct, but my experience is of no value to you when you're deciding for yourself if the Bible is true or not. It doesn't help you reach the conclusion that you wish to reach.

Again my personal experience is the opposite, and as I tried to relate to Famine, unless you recieve it's provision,
I believe it impossible for one to render an informed opinion.
Let me ask you, if someone told you that they were at a certain establishment and they got a drink there and it was just out of this world good, and you should try it.
Would you say, well that drink doesn't really exist so I wouldn't waste my time with it?
If you said that, would you be rendering an informed opinion?
What we are advocating is of the same principle, albeit certainly more to it.

Rational people make judgements from objective evidence, but that's not what you're doing.

Sorry, but I disagree.
I believe rational people examine all the evidence.
Otherwise you are excluding relevent factors, that can have a direct or indirect bearing on the matter.

If we can acknowledge that you simply admitting Satan's existence is not a form of worship, will you do the non-Christian population the kindness to stop implying that we're worshiping him by not acknowledging his existence? It seems pretty clear to me that in order to worship something, you at the very least have to think that it's real.

It is certainly possible to be under the influence of something and not know it exists.
In all honesty I cannot unacknowledge something I know exists.
However, I can acknowledge that in your sincerity you are not consciously and willfully worshipping him.
Obviously if you do not know he is real, it is not possible to do that.
For what it maybe worth to you, the Bible declares you are a servant to whom you obey.

 

[Famine]

Again my personal experience is the opposite, and as I tried to relate to Famine, unless you recieve it's provision,
I believe it impossible for one to render an informed opinion.
Let me ask you, if someone told you that they were at a certain establishment and they got a drink there and it was just out of this world good, and you should try it.
Would you say, well that drink doesn't really exist so I wouldn't waste my time with it?

No, we'd ask for directions to the establishment.

Just as we keep asking you for directions to receiving the Holy Spirit - but, rather selfishly, you won't share them.

We can no more just randomly wander about and stumble upon this establishment with the fabulous drink than we can randomly wander about and stumble upon God. Show us where it is and we can do it easily - or give us clear directions and we can get there ourselves. Keep it secret and there's no chance.

 

[The McMerc]

It is certainly possible to be under the influence of something and not know it exists.
In all honesty I cannot unacknowledge something I know exists.
However, I can acknowledge that in your sincerity you are not consciously and willfully worshipping him.
Obviously if you do not know he is real, it is not possible to do that.
For what it maybe worth to you, the Bible declares you are a servant to whom you obey.

You cannot unconsciously and unwillfully worship something, that defies the definition of worship.

 

[jimipitbull]

You cannot unconsciously and unwillfully worship something, that defies the definition of worship.

What if it's a taste, smell or sound that you don't even realize is there until it's gone?

 

[The McMerc]

What if it's a taste, smell or sound that you don't even realize is there until it's gone?

In this instance though, I'm talking about whether you can or cannot worship Satan unconsciously. The fact of the matter is, you can't. Especially when, in many people's case, you actively turn away from Satan, saying he does not exist at all.

 

[Imari]

I'd say that omnipotence actually means that a god can make a mountain so heavy that a god can't lift it, but a god can also lift a mountain that's so heavy that a god can't lift it.

After all, why would an omnipotent god be restricted by the boundaries of logic?

Which was exactly my point. SCJ was attempting to use logic to explain God's behaviour, I was pointing out that logic doesn't work on a being that is illogical.

Personally, I do not think it possible.
Does that make God less than Omnipotent?

Yes.

Perhaps, but again in reality it only matters what his range of power is in relation to me and that which he claims as his creation. In that sense he is Omnipotent.

I sense moving goalposts.

So when you say "omnipotent", you don't actually mean omnipotent, you just mean much more powerful than you?

How about you say that then, instead of using language that is misleading.

Now since it does not get any more personal than the experience we are relating,
I must say you have your work cut out for you, in convincing me otherwise.

Except I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm trying to point out that the way you operate, it is impossible for God Almighty to convince you otherwise.

Tell me, what hypothetical scenario would convince you that you were wrong?

Again my personal experience is the opposite, and as I tried to relate to Famine, unless you recieve it's provision,
I believe it impossible for one to render an informed opinion.

And as I pointed out, you immediately rule invalid any experience that would not fit with your conclusion.

Let me ask you, if someone told you that they were at a certain establishment and they got a drink there and it was just out of this world good, and you should try it.
Would you say, well that drink doesn't really exist so I wouldn't waste my time with it?
If you said that, would you be rendering an informed opinion?
What we are advocating is of the same principle, albeit certainly more to it.

What if I'd been to the same establishment, and found that it was a daycare centre and that they don't even serve drinks?

The problem is, you're not willing to listen to anyone whose experience is different to yours. Your answer is "come back when you've seen what I've seen". That's not helpful.

Sorry, but I disagree.
I believe rational people examine all the evidence.
Otherwise you are excluding relevent factors, that can have a direct or indirect bearing on the matter.

Did I say otherwise?

It is certainly possible to be under the influence of something and not know it exists.
In all honesty I cannot unacknowledge something I know exists.
However, I can acknowledge that in your sincerity you are not consciously and willfully worshipping him.
Obviously if you do not know he is real, it is not possible to do that.
For what it maybe worth to you, the Bible declares you are a servant to whom you obey.

How about I acknowledge that you can go 🤬 yourself?

If you're going to keep decrying me as a servant of Satan, I've got nothing more to say to you. You come back to me when you're willing to admit that maybe I'm not a pawn of evil, and maybe we can have a rational discussion. As long as you're going to treat me as some lackey doing the bidding of your great deceiver, I see no point wasting my time on you.

 

[Scaff]

What if it's a taste, smell or sound that you don't even realize is there until it's gone?

Unknown presence doesn't equal worship.

I'm 100% sure that the open ground behind my house is home to a multitude of woodland creatures, simply because they are there and I am unaware of them doesn't mean I am worshiping them, and they have the advantage of being creatures that we can prove to exist.

Stating that because someone doesn't worship X then it automatically means that they worship Z is nonsensical, particularly when the evidence for the existence of both X and Z is zero.

I sense moving goalposts.

So when you say "omnipotent", you don't actually mean omnipotent, you just mean much more powerful than you?

How about you say that then, instead of using language that is misleading.

SCJ using a word incorrectly and then attempting to redefine it? Never!

 

[FoRiZon]

Forget about it. Let it go.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

And why would God not allow that? He does, after all, apparently allow his characteristics to be represented differently in each of the different Christian religions, Judaism and Islam. And he appears on The Simpsons getting frustrated by Homer - and in several risque jokes.

For the same reason that no one else would want themselves misrepresented in their own representative work.
God has only claimed his participation in the establishment of the covenant with Israel and as an extension of that, his son which established the finality of that covenant in the Christian covenant.

As far as representations by others, that is under the price of autonomy.
However that does not mean that at the appointed time those responsible for those representations will not have to answer for them as to accuracy.

If God exists, it seems he's just fine with being misrepresented - so the concept that the Bible might be a work of fiction by Satan misrepresenting God is unharmed by God's opinion of it.Actually the Satan-written Bible is exactly as verisimilitudinous as the God-written Bible.

Perhaps he only intends for it's allowance for a season.
Again to provide a choice, I think he must allow for it, at least for a season.

One might argue more so - as it is consistent with the behaviours of the characters (deceitful Satan, aloof God who likes to play tricks on humans) and the inaccuracies it contains. Not to mention the requirement not to question it - good people have nothing to fear from questions.Actually, Satan can use them, but you can't.

Obviously, one might be inclined to argue anything.

If you're seeking to prove that the Bible isn't a deception from Satan, you can't use what's printed in the Bible to do so because that could be a deception from Satan.I wonder if you're familiar with the modern phenomenon of "trolls". They are people who get a great deal of enjoyment out of, often anonymously, sowing chaos* and causing confusion - for absolutely no tangible benefit of any kind. Or, as they say, "for the lulz" - because they aren't looking for anything rational, they just want to watch the world burn (as I already paraphrased).

Satan would be the ultimate troll then - misleading billions of people simply because it's funny...

Well since you mentioned it above in this post, I have to wonder why, if his "Great Deception" is the Bible,
did he bother to write a Satanic Bible to contradict his other "Great Deception".
Let me guess, he's hedging his bets?
Or the lulz as you say?

Or the Bible is not a deception, and it is all about providing a choice.
That would certainly be consistent.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[jimipitbull]

Unknown presence doesn't equal worship.

I'm 100% sure that the open ground behind my house is home to a multitude of woodland creatures, simply because they are there and I am unaware of them doesn't mean I am worshiping them, and they have the advantage of being creatures that we can prove to exist.

Stating that because someone doesn't worship X then it automatically means that they worship Z is nonsensical, particularly when the evidence for the existence of both X and Z is zero.

I didn't say it equals worship, but it could cause you to grieve. Grief and worship can be the same thing.
Hard to quantify as everybody grieves differently, but they could certainly be equal.

 

[Rotorist]

Discovering all the horrible things in the bible, putting two and two together, never getting a response from God, being let down. At this point I don't even want him to be real. Because if he is, he's an awful person for allowing all of the hate and suffering to people.

I think your logic is fault my friend. God isn't the dictator you think you 'd like who would punish the evil people (you and me as well as sinners because none is saint) at the moment they do the bad act. God gifted all with freedom of choice. And you see the evil around as the result of the bad handling of out freedom. If we mimiced God and his love for us (he let us crucify His Son to clear us all who would believe in Jesus from our uncountable sins), our freedom would have transformed the planet to paradise. Instead most of us chose to do the bad thing. Sometimes God prevents the evil from becoming even greater but not whenever we think is the time. So, humbleness and redemption is the key and whoever has some of it, sees clearly Him everywhere. I wish you the best.

 

[FoRiZon]

I think your logic is fault my friend. God isn't the dictator you think you 'd like who would punish the evil people (you and me as well as sinners because none is saint) at the moment they do the bad act. God gifted all with freedom of choice. And you see the evil around as the result of the bad handling of out freedom. If we mimiced God and his love for us (he let us crucify His Son to clear us all who would believe in Jesus from our uncountable sins), our freedom would have transformed the planet to paradise. Instead most of us chose to do the bad thing. Sometimes God prevents the evil from becoming even greater but not whenever we think is the time. So, humbleness and redemption is the key and whoever has some of it, sees clearly Him everywhere. I wish you the best.

Its not that we use our "freedom" wrong. Its that people sometimes fall into the pit at the times. And its inevitable at some point in life, you cant avoid it.

Remember thing called "forgiveness"? Use it well. You have time before you die. (probably not for a big mistakes like rape)

Also, i kinda mumbled at the "free will" and "Wrong freedom" at the same paragraph.

 

[nascarfan1400]

I think your logic is fault my friend. God isn't the dictator you think you 'd like who would punish the evil people (you and me as well as sinners because none is saint) at the moment they do the bad act. God gifted all with freedom of choice. And you see the evil around as the result of the bad handling of out freedom. If we mimiced God and his love for us (he let us crucify His Son to clear us all who would believe in Jesus from our uncountable sins), our freedom would have transformed the planet to paradise. Instead most of us chose to do the bad thing. Sometimes God prevents the evil from becoming even greater but not whenever we think is the time. So, humbleness and redemption is the key and whoever has some of it, sees clearly Him everywhere. I wish you the best.

Something I've never understood is- If he died for our sins, why is homosexuality taboo? Why is eating shrimp and pork not okay? He died for our sins, rright? So why, even if these things are a sin, going to send people to hell? Not trying to start a flame war, just looking for a view from a religious standpoint.

 

[Scaff]

I didn't say it equals worship, but it could cause you to grieve. Grief and worship can be the same thing.
Hard to quantify as everybody grieves differently, but they could certainly be equal.

You're going to have to expand on that, as while I can see that for some the act of worship may well be as emotionally intense as grief that still doesn't make them the same; nor does it yet explain how that would make someone a worshiper of something they have no belief at all in.

I think your logic is fault my friend. God isn't the dictator you think you 'd like who would punish the evil people (you and me as well as sinners because none is saint) at the moment they do the bad act. God gifted all with freedom of choice. And you see the evil around as the result of the bad handling of out freedom.

Do you believe in the concept of original sin?

If we mimiced God and his love for us (he let us crucify His Son to clear us all who would believe in Jesus from our uncountable sins), our freedom would have transformed the planet to paradise.

Mimic Gods actions?

So on that basis genocide is acceptable?

Instead most of us chose to do the bad thing.

Please define 'bad thing'

Sometimes God prevents the evil from becoming even greater but not whenever we think is the time.

Well that's a bit fickle.

So, humbleness and redemption is the key and whoever has some of it, sees clearly Him everywhere. I wish you the best.

So only Christians are capable of humbleness and redemption?

 

[Famine]

For the same reason that no one else would want themselves misrepresented in their own representative work.

... which again assumes that it is his work and not Satan's...

Well since you mentioned it above in this post, I have to wonder why, if his "Great Deception" is the Bible,
did he bother to write a Satanic Bible to contradict his other "Great Deception".

Did Satan write a Satanic Bible?

 

[Rotorist]

You're going to have to expand on that, as while I can see that for some the act of worship may well be as emotionally intense as grief that still doesn't make them the same; nor does it yet explain how that would make someone a worshiper of something they have no belief at all in.




Do you believe in the concept of original sin?



Mimic Gods actions?

So on that basis genocide is acceptable?



Please define 'bad thing'



Well that's a bit fickle.



So only Christians are capable of humbleness and redemption?

I replied to a person who said he has read The Bible or at least the Old Testament. All that I wrote are based on his knowledge. You need education on Christian faith and we have a long way till we have a base to discuss. Are you willing to learn about or not?


Mimic God's actions means to forgive enemies and helping people without waiting for payment in this life.

About genocide now. They didn't kill everyone as God told them to do and they were punished later because of letting pagans live and mimicing their customs getting away from God's orders. That order was to prove that humans cannot be perfect towards God's will as we are weak to do only the good without the Holy Spirit which came to us after we baptised. Even Adam and Eva fulted in this although they were living in front of the God.

Bad thing is the opposite to what God has ordered. Bad thing is what Devil wants to oppose us to God. Simple as that.

Christians should seek to become humble and correct their faults as they need to become same as Jesus. That is His will. "Become perfect as I am". "Become saints as I am". "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart". So, not only Christians highly esteem those virtues, but we are obliged to have them on top of our priority in life to have Jesus on our side and Holy Spirit inside us to be in unity to God.

Be well

 

[Scaff]

I replied to a person who said he has read The Bible or at least the Old Testament. All that I wrote are based on his knowledge. You need education on Christian faith and we have a long way till we have a base to discuss. Are you willing to learn about or not?

What a stunningly arrogant reply!

How do know I've not read the Bible?

I have read it, along with the religious texts of a good number of world religions, don't assume that simply because someone is an atheist (which I am) that they are ignorant of religion, have not had exposure to religion in the past or are incapable of discussing the subject.

 

[Rotorist]

Watch above as I enriched my reply. Do not be so defensive. It is just your answers who show not good enough knowledge of The Bible. Forgive my bad estimation. Not in my intensions to insult.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

This seems fairly relevant.