- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Not really. There are plenty of primarily offline games that have been very successful, both critically and in terms of sales.
Do you still have respect for Kazunori Yamauchi? (poll)
- Thread starter furryboy96
- 248 comments
- 22,196 views
Not really. There are plenty of primarily offline games that have been very successful, both critically and in terms of sales.
- 144
- Metz, France
- GTP_ktz_
what a **** poll... He deserves respect whatever he's done lately, as everybody does.
If GT is going down the hill it's because he's basically making bad decisions i'd say, but he still has the same love
for cars, GT & stuff...
Anyway that's not even the point, it just seems so out of place tbh. This is personal and even if it wasn't, you can't say that you don't respect someone anymore because you don't like his games anymore, lmaooooooooooooo
If GT is going down the hill it's because he's basically making bad decisions i'd say, but he still has the same love
for cars, GT & stuff...
Anyway that's not even the point, it just seems so out of place tbh. This is personal and even if it wasn't, you can't say that you don't respect someone anymore because you don't like his games anymore, lmaooooooooooooo
Tired Tyres
Premium
- 12,539
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Sorry, internet and sarcasm and all that. My meter must be mis-calibrated. In all seriousness I'd half expect it to get decent reviews simply because of the online thing, so it's not totally far fetched.
I'm sure you and everyone else can think of a few people who don't deserve respect for whatever they've done lately. I think it's pretty unquestionable that everyone deserves respect. Respect isn't given, it's earned.
Well, it depends. Are we talking about what he achieved with GT1 through 4? Or what he's done in the last ten years?
I can think of numerous creators who are judged very differently depending on which parts of their portfolio you're looking at. As someone who is still alive and creating, I think it's fair to judge Kaz on his most recent works.
- 50,916
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The title, is like a "What have you done for me lately?" question. Based that way, recent undelivered promises, countered with apologies/excuses and delays, one or many players, could lose faith.
If looked at as achievements, one could admire Kaz for living out his dreams. I drew cars as a child. I watched racing as a child. I collected toy cars, talked about cars all the time. Someone has brought many of our fantasies to our hands. He could have kept this game to himself. Why not? If any of us had the resources of PDI-Sony, to make a car game for our own use, would we keep it to ourselves?
One would have to respect anyone that is willing to put their name out there for others to share(or even invest) their time in another's dream.
If looked at as achievements, one could admire Kaz for living out his dreams. I drew cars as a child. I watched racing as a child. I collected toy cars, talked about cars all the time. Someone has brought many of our fantasies to our hands. He could have kept this game to himself. Why not? If any of us had the resources of PDI-Sony, to make a car game for our own use, would we keep it to ourselves?
One would have to respect anyone that is willing to put their name out there for others to share(or even invest) their time in another's dream.
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Well, let's not get carried away. Sony gives him a lot of freedom, but I doubt that they're willing to spend $60+ million to just let him make a game that only he can play. That's why not.
Gran Turismo continues to get funded by Sony because they think that it's good financial business for them, in whatever form that takes. Kaz is not Elon Musk or something who can just fling money around on whatever passion project he has going this week. He's rich, but he ain't that rich. He requires Sony and outside funding to keep it going, and that ultimately means making a game that sells.
Kaz puts his name out there because he knows that it's good marketing for his game (which is good for him), and because it creates opportunities for him to keep doing what he clearly enjoys a bit longer. Which isn't particularly respectable, it's what all of us do once we're in a job we like; try and keep running the clock so we can do it as long as we can.
- 1,934
- A field in England
Regardless of his latest blunders, there's no denying what he did for the gaming industry in the '90s (along with the rest of PD).
No matter how useless one becomes, there's no denying previous achievements. Even if he's dragging PD/GT into a bottomless hole (not that I'm saying he is - it's too early to tell), you can't very well just ignore the first 12 or so years of his career.
Everyone judges in different ways I guess, but I try and take the good with the bad.
Mind you, I thoroughly enjoyed GT5 and 6, regardless of the (admittedly many) problems, faults, delays etc., so I suppose this thread is a mute point for me. Even if I were judging him on only the last 4 or 5 years, I'd still be mighty impressed by the man.
- 50,916
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
How is his own happiness for doing what he likes to do, not particularly respectable? I can respect anyone for doing what they like to do. I can see if he were paying his workers pennies and causing harm to others, that's something else.
He is champion of the racing game industry. It may seem like he's having a biting-the-ear-during-a-title-fight moment, where people may lose respect for him. I don't think it's that serious. I'd say, people have invested serious time in their lives playing his games and some just see him as losing his way, from what some may feel, a Gran Turismo title is.
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I'm not suggesting ignoring his earlier work entirely, but neither am I suggesting that because he made a couple of good games once that excuses him from anything else he might do.
Personally I'm a lot more impressed by the handful of incredible games I've played over the last 4 or 5 years. Uncharted 2. The Witcher 3. GTA V. Even the Tomb Raider reboot was remarkably well executed.
Gran Turismo 5 and 6 are somewhere in no man's land, they weren't awful games but neither were they anything that I would particularly recommend to anyone. In the last year I've put GT5P back in to play a couple of times, but I haven't played 5 or 6 in a long, long time.
Why would you respect someone for doing what they like? It rather seems to me that it's entirely dependent on the specifics of what they're doing. I'm sure you can think of people who like doing some pretty nasty things, and you wouldn't respect them for that simply because they enjoy it.
Personally, I think respect is accorded when someone does something exceptional. That could take any number of forms, and in the case of GT it was originally pretty exceptional in that it largely defined a number of features from non-racing games that could be incorporated well into racing games.
Cool.
However, since that it's been debatable at best. GT2 was just big. GT3 was just pretty. GT4 was big AND pretty, and threw in B-Spec as well. B-Spec has never been particularly well implemented, but I still think it's an interesting idea that has never really had it's day in the sun.
GT5 and 6 have been of inconsistent quality at best, and mostly contain poor remakes of ideas done better in other games. The only areas in which those games were exceptional was graphical quality, and that only with a small handful of cars and tracks and not in motion.
He has a cult of personality. He is not a champion of the racing game industry any more than any random dev lead. Dave Kaemmer, Geoff Crammond, Stefano Casillo and whatever pack of geniuses wrote isiMotor are champions of the racing game industry, because without them none of this would exist.
Kaz is no doubt a clever man, and is clearly highly charismatic, but he's not even Akihiko Tan. He's the frontman that every fan latches onto, not realising that he's just a highly visible icon and that actually there are lots of people far more skilled and worthy of notice, even within Polyphony, but they're far too busy getting on with their jobs to spend significant time in the spotlight.
One of the things that rubs me about Polyphony is that there's at least half a dozen long term employees who have had at least as much if not more impact on shaping GT to where it is today. You don't hear about them though.
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Not the workers, no. But other key employees, sure. But most developers aren't quite as singular with their presentation of a single personality as Polyphony is. They'll share information and interviews with heads of certain departments. If they want to talk about sound, they'll get out the sound guy. If they want to show off their modelling they'll ask the head modeller. They'll go to the lead writer for story interviews. Etc., etc.
It's actually kind of rare in my experience for a big business to hide behind a single personality. There's advantage to having a single recognisable name and face, but they also want to show that they have a capable team and not just a charismatic leader. Because with the size of teams and businesses these days, you really can't ride on a single person's coattails for very long.
- 1,934
- A field in England
Can't say I've played the Witcher series, but I have played Uncharted 2. Graphically amazing, good story. After 15 or so hours, I had little else to do. Competitive online doesn't interest me and neither does collecting relics. Fantastic game but not one I'd sit and play for a long time.
GTA V is the single most frustrating game I've ever played. The story was great fun, but the online is all kinds of rage-inducing for many reasons, which I shan't go into on this thread.
I put somewhere in the region of 6,000 hours into GT5 and GT6. Regardless of faults, they're still two of my favourite games, behind Borderlands 1 and GT2.
At the end of the day, it's all opinion. What many might see as a blunder, or Kaz dragging PD and GT downhill or whatever, I still see as a success, because me and my friends got much more than our money's worth out of both GT5 and 6. They had their problems. Many many problems. But hell if they weren't good fun for me.
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Some of us don't judge a game by how long we can play it for, though. Some of us simply judge it on how good an experience it provides.
Compare it to restaurants if you like. You can get a lot of decent food for $100, or you can get a small but magnificent meal. Both can be acceptable choices depending on what you need in your life, but the huge amount of decent food is hardly ever going to be praised as sheer volume isn't really anything to brag about.
See above. Simply on the single player the game is one of the best ever.
The online didn't even come out until much later. Frankly, I think you get more than your money's worth out of that game without the online. It's kind of the reverse of modern shooters, where the single player is at best kind of average but the real meat of the game is in the online.
See above. One doesn't say that a game is good just because one played it a lot. It might be good for you, but you can still recognise that there are faults that make it not a very good game. I probably put hundreds of hours into Shift 2, but that is absolutely not a good game. Likewise, I probably put several thousand hours into GT5 but it's not a particularly well designed game.
Did you play GT before 5 and 6? Have you played many other racing games? I don't want to belittle your opinion, but it's entirely possible that you feel the way you do because you're not aware of what else is available out there. GT5 & 6 are acceptable entry level racing games, but they don't do anything particularly well. They can be fun if you're into a certain type of play, but even then there are better games for that. Which is why GT5 and 6 aren't considered to be particularly good. Any game is judged relative to what else is available at the time.
- 1,934
- A field in England
If I put that many hours into it, it's got to be doing something right.
A restaurant is a bit different to a video game, no? A video game you play as and when you want to. A game is not digested in a single sitting. You wouldn't get any satisfaction from GT over the duration of a single evening, like you would Journey, for example. Because all of Journey's extraordinary content is in the space of 2 hours or so. Gran Turismo, much like a game such as Ark: Survival Evolved, or Borderlands, or GTA Online, is a game designed to be played for a long time. It's a slow burn. I like that. Some might not, but I do.
There's only so long I'll play single player though. Games like GTA, Gran Turismo, Borderlands or even Littlebigplanet cry out to be enjoyed with friends. GTA Online was always difficult to enjoy simply because online progression was so slow, and missions were so frustrating. There's only so long before you and your friends get bored of a sports car and then want an APC. Borderlands was a generally easy game, and co op is fun, LBP is LBP and you could earn money so quickly on Gran Turismo that there was always something you could add to your collection, something new. The grind could get boring but then you could argue the same of GTA Online.
See above. A game can't be that bad if you spent that long playing it. If you spent that time not enjoying yourself on the other hand, that's a different story, but then why play it at all? That's why I stopped playing GTA.
I've played GT1, GT2, GT3, GT Geneva Motor Show(or was it Tokyo? Can't remember), GT4 Prologue, GT4, GT HD, GT5 Prologue, GT5, GT6. I've been playing the series since '98.
Other driving games I've had include Motorstorm (great series by the way), DiRT 2, some of the old PS2 Burnout and NFS games, Modnation Racers, and more that I can't remember off the top of my head.
Why do I love GT5 and 6 despite their flaws? Simple. The mix of choice, physics that felt realistic enough to be challenging and dynamic, but not unforgiving, and the online system that allowed a lot of freedom in the way you play the game with friends. Might not work for many, but it worked for me. Like I said, it's an opinion at the end of the day. I'm not going to change anyone else's and no one is going to change mine. I thoroughly enjoyed my time on every Gran Turismo to date, and back to the OP's question, yes, I respect Kaz.
Hell, even if his next game was Big Rigs, I'd still respect him for previous efforts. I'd have less respect, granted, but still.
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- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
It's got to be doing something right for you. But as I discussed, it's perfectly possible for me to enjoy a game that is objectively bad.
If you've got reasons that GT5 and 6 are good, let's hear them. But "I played it a lot" isn't really a very good one without something to back that up.
The restaurant is a simile referring to the difference in quality and quantity that you might receive for a similar price. You apparently missed that.
Do they? I've never played GTA with friends. I tried LBP with friends but I liked it more just as a platformer. I'm pretty sure I've spent more time playing GT in single player than multiplayer as well.
What does that mean?
You certainly could, and that's why I don't play GTA Online.
See, some of us don't find buying another version of the same cars to be "something new". I don't want to buy another standard MX5. I don't want to buy a VW van that struggles to get up a hill. I don't want a laser powered rocket car that breaks the laws of physics.
I ran out of things to do pretty fast in GT5, but I made an effort to create goals for myself. By the time GT6 came, there was even less to do and I simply couldn't be bothered. Why keep playing GT6 grinding out races that have different names but are basically the same stuff over and over? Why not go play another game that I picked up for $5 on Steam and experience something new and exciting?
That's GT6's biggest problem, it requires the Pokemon mentality that grinding and collecting is engaging gameplay. If you don't have that, it falls largely flat and I think it's fair to expect more from a game than that in 2016. Especially a AAA first party title.
You don't seem to understand. I played GT5 because I wanted it to be good. I wanted online to be good. I wanted the single player to be good. I wanted to keep playing with the community that had developed around it. Eventually I branched out and started playing other sim-like games, and discovered that all the little niggles that I had with GT were things that someone else had solved long ago and simply had never found their way into GT. I had sunk all that time into GT5 because I was sure that somewhere under there was a great game if only I could just find it. But there wasn't.
Of course, no other game is put together in exactly the way that GT is, but I could pick and choose what I wanted to play based on what features I wanted to really be excellent. I was playing games that were a master of one or two things instead of a mish-mash of a dozen. If I want to play online, I'd rather play a game that does online exceptionally and nothing else. If I want a career mode, I'm happy with a game that focuses solely on that. And so on.
So yeah, your experience is limited. The only sim-like games you've played are GT, so of course you think it's the best sim.
Best of luck, you're enjoying what you've got. I recommend that you don't take time playing other racing games of a similar type, because the exposure to what is possible in modern racing games will make you much more jaded about GT.
I'm not trying to be backhanded about it, but seriously. When the only sims you've played are GT, you're hardly in a position to be objective.
- 627
- Lomma
- GTP_M00ndancer
Exactly my view of things, I even powered up my old GT4 game, and realized that what I wanted wasn't there. I played GT5p/GT5 a lot, was active in this community a lot, and then GT6 came along... and I haven't played it since 24/2 2016
I'm halfway thru the career and it ..... never mind. (had to check the online savefile) What I wanted for my car game (been racing online on PC since 2000-ish) after GT4 was the same concept but updated with better graphics, save for endurance races, better physics and FFB, Day&Night modes and online/LAN play. I given up on the console as viable platform for my type of racing. I'm finding my type of playing else where, and when I want the "GT-experience" I fire up my old GT4 and play for a bit. I know I'm in a minority that only plays/races cargames/sims with a wheel and pedals, but still.
I don't post much, but I still read things here on GT-planet and stay because of the great community, but the GT-franchise is dead in the water in my opinion.
And there is the topic of respect... Kas have my respect as a person for what he has done in the past (GT1-GT4), but nowadays it's not a matter of respect anymore, he haven't made a game for me in a long time. But I do however enjoy watching the GT-academy guys race, and Kaz when he goes to the N24 and race.
Long gone are the days when I was exited about a GT release, there are other players on the market now.
- 1,532
- Scotland
- Stephen220378
He deserves respect for what he's done in the past, specifically GT1 to GT4. Kaz (and his team at PD) singly-handedly moved console racing games in a completely new direction when GT1 was released back in 1997. From then on up to GT4 they made the game bigger and better continually improving the formula. Then GT5 came and it was meh. PD and Kaz lost a ton of credibility after that for reasons I'll go into below.
The series to me is irrelevant now, Project Cars offers a far better experience, I've heard Assetto Corsa is good as well although it's lack of a proper career mode means I didn't bother buying it (I'll pick it up when it's on sale for around £15 and check it out). The worrying thing for PD should be that these two aforementioned games are both the first in their inevitable series and have already surpassed GT where it matters, on the track, these two series will continue to improve as their sequels come out while GT is going backwards at an alarming rate. That's on Kaz.
There's also the issues of missing features in GT games at launch, poor features such as "standard" cars in GT5 and GT 6 (although they weren't referred to as standard in GT6 and were cleaned up a bit but they were still standard, poor offline racing with horrible drone-like AI and the now almost comical Gran Turismo delays. Again, that's all on Kaz and on the whole talk of respect I think that's disrespecting the GT fans who buy his games, GT5, in my opinion could almost be labelled as shovelware for it's low quality features such as standard cars lifted from a PS2 game and black silhouette interior views, recycled events from the first 3 games and missing announced features at launch, only a few things kept it out of that category. For a game with such a big budget and a development team given so much freedom (and time) by it's parent company Sony it simply shouldn't happen and it's on Kazunori Yamauchi.
So yes he still has my respect and always will, however, I think the way he's taking the GT series will be the downfall of it. GT Sport just doesn't look good at all, the first GT title I haven't been excited about, even after the disappointing GT5 I was excited to see the improvements made in GT6. After the last two games and the new direction GTS is going in, eSports based with a large percentage of fake cars racing real ones, the GT series has become unappealing especially compared to the competition and the competition is key here. I put god knows how many hours into GT5 and GT6, why? Because there wasn't any alternative at the time. If PCars was released for the PS3 in 2010, GT5 would have been gathering dust on a shelf.
The series to me is irrelevant now, Project Cars offers a far better experience, I've heard Assetto Corsa is good as well although it's lack of a proper career mode means I didn't bother buying it (I'll pick it up when it's on sale for around £15 and check it out). The worrying thing for PD should be that these two aforementioned games are both the first in their inevitable series and have already surpassed GT where it matters, on the track, these two series will continue to improve as their sequels come out while GT is going backwards at an alarming rate. That's on Kaz.
There's also the issues of missing features in GT games at launch, poor features such as "standard" cars in GT5 and GT 6 (although they weren't referred to as standard in GT6 and were cleaned up a bit but they were still standard, poor offline racing with horrible drone-like AI and the now almost comical Gran Turismo delays. Again, that's all on Kaz and on the whole talk of respect I think that's disrespecting the GT fans who buy his games, GT5, in my opinion could almost be labelled as shovelware for it's low quality features such as standard cars lifted from a PS2 game and black silhouette interior views, recycled events from the first 3 games and missing announced features at launch, only a few things kept it out of that category. For a game with such a big budget and a development team given so much freedom (and time) by it's parent company Sony it simply shouldn't happen and it's on Kazunori Yamauchi.
So yes he still has my respect and always will, however, I think the way he's taking the GT series will be the downfall of it. GT Sport just doesn't look good at all, the first GT title I haven't been excited about, even after the disappointing GT5 I was excited to see the improvements made in GT6. After the last two games and the new direction GTS is going in, eSports based with a large percentage of fake cars racing real ones, the GT series has become unappealing especially compared to the competition and the competition is key here. I put god knows how many hours into GT5 and GT6, why? Because there wasn't any alternative at the time. If PCars was released for the PS3 in 2010, GT5 would have been gathering dust on a shelf.
- 922
- Naples
- MarchingSaint
Hello!
The topic itself is not self evident as it seems;
Personally speaking it's an useless question because we do not know him personally, but speaking in the general direction the series has taken lately, we can unfold quite the discussion.
As many of us agree that not all the choices the game are understandable, we've gotta admit that Gran Turismo imposed itself not only as a game, but as a brand. You can't literally see a motoring event without the Gran Turismo plate plastered all over the place. I have a lot of respect for Yamauchi, his team and their work, not every Ps1 era legend walked ( or raced) this long without a failure or two or even worse. ( just think about Crash, Spyro and many others)
Even Though GT Sport hasn't convinced everyonee, you've gotta admit that realizing the potential of GT as E-sport and working toward that objective takes dedication and a little bit of courage. Taking a direction totally different, embracing a new unknown way in order to keep GT alive takes guts.
The topic itself is not self evident as it seems;
Personally speaking it's an useless question because we do not know him personally, but speaking in the general direction the series has taken lately, we can unfold quite the discussion.
As many of us agree that not all the choices the game are understandable, we've gotta admit that Gran Turismo imposed itself not only as a game, but as a brand. You can't literally see a motoring event without the Gran Turismo plate plastered all over the place. I have a lot of respect for Yamauchi, his team and their work, not every Ps1 era legend walked ( or raced) this long without a failure or two or even worse. ( just think about Crash, Spyro and many others)
Even Though GT Sport hasn't convinced everyonee, you've gotta admit that realizing the potential of GT as E-sport and working toward that objective takes dedication and a little bit of courage. Taking a direction totally different, embracing a new unknown way in order to keep GT alive takes guts.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
The eSport trend is not a brave new direction, PCars and Forza are already well onto that path on console and iRacing has been there for years on pc. rFactor2 is about to give away $1million in prize money pitting sim racers against Formula E drivers in a couple of weeks. If anything, PD is in danger of falling far behind in eSports if they don't offer up something more than a dinner at the FIA awards as a prize. Given the general trends in gaming, the competition and GT's place in the driving game hierarchy it would have been far more shocking if they weren't involved in eSports.
- 896
- sheffield
I like that he is ridiculously fussy and his attention to detail is great. However.... he would be late for his own wedding. I mean, seriously, forza mangage to make plenty of great titles. I think it is about time that PD addressed the issue. Maybe hire some more developers ? Just do something because they are becoming somewhat of a joke and plenty are going to xbox for driving games. Ps4 have Project cars, the crew and assetto corsa...thats it i think !
- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I think Kazunori Yamauchi is very comparable to Peter Molyneux at this point. Both had major impacts on the game industry way back when, both are now known more for their inability to release a solid game and their habit of talking complete rubbish while on the PR trail.
I think that the ability to refine a concept to a polished product is valued more than the ability to come up with something "new" in modern gaming. There are lots of common game mechanics and types that have a lot of life left in them and could really use someone spending a lot of time refining them. That seems more valuable than throwing out first revisions of stuff like the real popping in course editor.
See stuff like The Last of Us, it's a good story paired with very solid mechanics that are totally uninspired. That sort of gameplay can be traced back to Resident Evil at least, if not further. No point reinventing the wheel when you can just take someone else's work and do it better.
I think that the ability to refine a concept to a polished product is valued more than the ability to come up with something "new" in modern gaming. There are lots of common game mechanics and types that have a lot of life left in them and could really use someone spending a lot of time refining them. That seems more valuable than throwing out first revisions of stuff like the real popping in course editor.
See stuff like The Last of Us, it's a good story paired with very solid mechanics that are totally uninspired. That sort of gameplay can be traced back to Resident Evil at least, if not further. No point reinventing the wheel when you can just take someone else's work and do it better.
How can anybody not have respect for this man? Even though I hugely dislike the idea behind GT Sport, even though I have switched to Forza recently, despite delays, promised features being added hilariously late into game's life.(Cruise Maker) Gran Turismo has been huge part of my life at one point and I respect him for the memories alone.
- 716
Why should someone I never met have my Respect? You want respect then earn it. I think people confuses respect with common courtesy/ code of conduct in public to/for another person so to speak.
Especially those in USA are confused about this. If a cop says respect me because I am a cop I would say, why? what have you done to me or others that makes me respect you? Being a cop or military is just a job. would you do it for free and without demanding respect(taking up too much space) from others?
So no, just because Kaz is responsible for GT he is not some one I can respect, impressed yeah but respect? No that is different then respecting someone.
Especially those in USA are confused about this. If a cop says respect me because I am a cop I would say, why? what have you done to me or others that makes me respect you? Being a cop or military is just a job. would you do it for free and without demanding respect(taking up too much space) from others?
So no, just because Kaz is responsible for GT he is not some one I can respect, impressed yeah but respect? No that is different then respecting someone.
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- 13,866
- Adelaide
- Neomone
One could make an argument that how could anyone have respect for him what with the shoddy and bug ridden releases, the mistruths and outright lies in marketing, the inability to embrace modern game design and techniques and so on.
Of course, most people feel somewhere in the middle. But he's certainly not automatically deserving of respect at this point any more than Peter Molyneux or Sean Murray.
- 5,161
- Massachusetts
Is his attention to detail great? Then why do his games have the worst sounds in the entire genre of "sim racing"? Why are the physics of his game from another dimension in time & space, where raising the front of the car as high as you can while keeping the rear as low as you can produces oversteer, and the reverse produces understeer? For someone who has strapped on a fire suit and helmet and driven in one of the biggest races in the world, how does he allow his racing game to make negative camber a grip reducer starting at zero degrees?
I think that his problem is that his attention to detail is no longer so great when it comes to the franchise he created. I never played anything before GT6, but there must have been some seriously awesome games early on in the franchise when I read the sales numbers. Why are they continuing to decline?
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