Economy system is a piece of ****!

[MatskiMonk]

I think there's also an answer that people have danced around not giving...

If you can't get the 20,000,000 cars.. tough ****

I'm not getting the same gaming experience from my £40 as the likes of TRL LIGHTNING, Aderrrm or Tidgney... who do I bitch to about that?

 

[VeeDoubleU]

I'm not getting the same gaming experience from my £40 as the likes of TRL LIGHTNING, Aderrrm or Tidgney... who do I bitch to about that?

They earned that through skill.
You don't earn the 20M cars through skill because grinding credits requires no skill and the most challenging aspects of the game do not give relative credit payouts.

 

[MatskiMonk]

They earned that through skill.
You don't earn the 20M cars through skill because grinding credits requires no skill and the most challenging aspects of the game do not give relative credit payouts.

So what you're saying is that the 20 mill cars are worse because they're ultimately accessible to everyone?

Yeah that makes sense.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

So what you're saying is that the 20 mill cars are worse because they're ultimately accessible to everyone?

Yeah that makes sense.

They would still be accessible to everyone with higher payouts for more skillful play, which is fine.

 

[MatskiMonk]

They would still be accessible to everyone with higher payouts for more skillful play, which is fine.

So how does that get me a costs paid trip to the finals and front page articles about my experience?

 

[VeeDoubleU]

So how does that get me a costs paid trip to the finals and front page articles about my experience?

It doesn't. I'm pointing out how irrelevant your comparison is.

 

[kjeldsen]

*EDIT*

 

[RacingFan1]

..and that makes selling cars a feasible way of income *how* again?



See above. The very fact that you *can't* sell prize cars in Sport kind of nullifies your entire argument right here.



Alright, let's look at this way:

GT Sport:

• One prize car per day for driving 42 kilometers
• For anyone who's played the game for more than a week, that's all you're going to get
• You cannot sell that prize car for credits

Literally any other GT game:

• As many prize cars as you can fit into your schedule
• Most of these can be won repeatedly, and, most importantly..
• Can be sold for credits repeatedly.

Exactly where is the prize car system in Sport decidedly better than the system in previous games?

-It is a LIMITED way of income (that you can only sell the cars you bought, once you get gifted that car you already bought), but its a way of income nonetheless, its better than nothing.

You guys forget something into the equation. UPGRADES
In previous GT's, you had to buy ALL upgrade parts for ALL cars with Credits (including all types of tires, yeah!) - If you calculate all that for all the 1000+ cars in GT5/GT6, its a HUGE amount.
Not in GT sport, where you use that second KM currency, and only for two upgrades (weight and power level) therefore you might earn not so much, but at the same time, you spend far less credits that you realise.
Its not only about how much you earn, but also how much you need to spend, and in GT Sport the credit upgrade spending is exactly 0.

 

[rono_thomas]

Its not only about how much you earn, but also how much you need to spend.

Famines post shows that GTS is far more expensive. Summary below.

That's why it seems like a grind to some people but not to others - money can come quick (four times faster than GT1), but you need way, way more of it to buy the most expensive cars (forty times more expensive than GT1).

 

[MatskiMonk]

It doesn't. I'm pointing out how irrelevant your comparison is.

What makes it irrelevant? We all get 24 hours a day to with what we want, therefore things that are time dependent are equally available to everyone.

I've been playing GT for 20 years, I have no sport mode wins... that tells me that becoming part of the >1% is significantly less achievable than getting a 20 mill car, which took about a week using rubberbands or something that I've achieved twice over in normal play since last year.

I understand the silliness of this standpoint by the way, I'm just trying to demonstrate the silliness of the entitled and impatient argument against the credits system.

 

[warp9engage]

But that is a bit like stating the obvious is it not? Some actually like to grind, some like to never play offline, there is more ways to be entertained... and that was my point.

It's all about taste indeed. I'll just say that I, personally, can't understand why you would want to continue the struggles of your life in a game. You know, if it's like that, then do it for real, don't settle for the couch. Then again, if you like the struggle, if what you do is like a hobby to you, then by all means, enjoy!

 

[rallymorten]

-It is a LIMITED way of income (that you can only sell the cars you bought), but its a way of income nonetheless, its better than nothing.

Ah, so limited way of income > unlimited way of income. Gotcha.

You guys forget something into the equation.
In previous GT's, you had to buy ALL upgrade parts for ALL cars with Credits. Not in GT sport, where you use that second KM currency, therefore you might earn not so much, but at the same time, you spend far less credits that you realise.

And you're forgetting the bit where the cost of upgrading a car was easily offset by such crazy things as selling prize cars.

In short, Sport's replaced the ability to earn multiple prize cars per day with not having to pay credits to upgrade them. Realistically speaking, which one of these do you think saves you the most grinding?

 

[RacingFan1]

Famines post shows that GTS is far more expensive. Summary below.

Did famine take into account the cost of all the upgrades for all cars?

Ah, so limited way of income > unlimited way of income. Gotcha.



And you're forgetting the bit where the cost of upgrading a car was easily offset by such crazy things as selling prize cars.

In short, Sport's replaced the ability to earn multiple prize cars per day with not having to pay credits to upgrade them. Realistically speaking, which one of these do you think saves you the most grinding?

Read again, I said better than nothing.
I remember in GT6 I did the money glitch, so I got most cars at the start, but I remember GT5 being crazy hard to get all of them and be able to upgrade them all - You think its harder in GT Sport but I really dont agree and you have no proof because you dont have the exact numbers. I've been playing GT Sport for a year and I only have 3 unicorn cars left to buy. The rest I have them all and all of them upgraded.
Please calculate what the upgrades cost for each car if you want, in GT5 and GT6, if you have free time, the amount of money you need only for upgrades is insane. I dont have the exact figures but, yeah, you need lots and lots of millions.

 

[Woodybobs]

Sorry I should have worded that better. I meant the criteria to pass weapons training was decreased so more people passed.

Is that because they need more people to pass or they want more people to pass. I suspect the former. It has nothing to do with people expecting they should pass.

A levels and degrees were not handed out as easily as they are now, but the pass rates look better. They lower the bar to artificiality inflate pass rates.

There might some truth to this but essentially exam results only separate the people who do them into different groups. It would't matter if the grading scale only went from 91%-100%. I'm guessing we are of a similar age (Mastersystem & Megadrive ). We shouldn't forget that kids nowadays need college degrees to get jobs that we could have walked into straight from second level education (or even before). The only reason for this is because of competition during the interview process. With or without a degree it usually only takes a few weeks to be capable of doing many of these jobs to a high standard. Again, the criteria for selecting the pass rate has nothing to do with students expecting they should pass. I was lucky enough to be able to study as a mature student in an undergraduate course a few years ago. Those kids were smart and worked hard. It may be easier to pass than before ( I don't really know), but our generation and others before us were winning without going to uni.

But hey, that's the modern world for you. Everybody's a winner.

The modern world has changed but it hasn't turned everyone into a winner. Just like the fact that I had access to chocolate at any point during my childhood didn't turn me into a glutton (despite the fact that I love chocolate). For generations people have complained how a changing world is having a negative affect on the abilities and/or moral compass of each new generation. If we look back through history, we can see, for the most part, the opposite is true.

 

[rono_thomas]

Did famine take into account the cost of all the upgrades for all cars?

I’m sure he could, I would expect the cost of upgrades to be negligible when compared to the cost of the cars in GTS

 

[Tired Tyres]

Just remember it is a game and you do not need to get that car you want in 5 minutes, but sadly some players do want that to happen. Just because there are a few expensive cars in the game and they start complaining about the payouts, because they are lazy and they what to play less to earn heaps of credits which is wrong.

Says the rubber band merchant.

 

[George Jakob]

lazy and they what to play less to earn heaps of credit

*Calls people lazy makes the AI do his job ....

 

[RacingFan1]

I’m sure he could, I would expect the cost of upgrades to be negligible when compared to the cost of the cars in GTS

No way. GT5/GT6 have about 4 times the amount of cars, and all upgrades for every single car (most particularly, road cars) cost a decent amount... Not sure how much but, I think it was about 300k-400k or even more?
Lets say in GT6 you want to fully upgrade 1000 cars and each one costs 300k - 300.000 x 1000 = its 300 million credits to earn.
What about that?
I put 1000 instead of 1200 because of repeated cars, not exact numbers, but you can get the idea.

 

[Downhill Dino]

*Calls people lazy makes the AI do his job ....

Hey B-Spec was fun! I miss Bob spinning out on the final lap after holding his hand throughout the race.

 

[rono_thomas]

300k-400k

No way accurate.

Edit: plus you would have the car.

 

[George Jakob]

I saw some very intresting responses but i want to ask a question According to the costum race selection order the classes go N100-N1000 GR.B GR.4 GR.3 GR.2 GR.1 GR.X so if PD allowed N Class cars to enter the Nostalgic 1979 event then by using a N300 Ford GT40 the payout would be 13 times bigger right? @Famine can correct me if im wrong tho.

 

[George Jakob]

Hey B-Spec was fun! I miss Bob spinning out on the final lap after holding his hand throughout the race.

You know thats not what i mean lol .

 

[RacingFan1]

No way accurate.

Edit: plus you would have the car.

Not accurate?
Just buying all sports and racing tires it costs around 100k, then it comes the susspension, the bakes, the engine upgrade, weight reduction.... Pretty sure its around 300k or more. For some cars its less (racing cars) but the vast majority of road cars, it costs a lot of credits to upgrade them to the maximum.

 

[Woodybobs]

Did famine take into account the cost of all the upgrades for all cars?

This is not really about how much money one needs to get the unicorns, or how long it takes. It's the disparity between online and offline payouts that's the problem. For me, on average, the ratio is at least 20:1* p/h of race time. This doesn't take into account practising and qualifying, or waiting between races. My 10 wins and other decent results will occasionally boost my earnings from Sport races but earning potential from the meta earners is still way out in front.

*This is a very rough guesstimate. I will concede its accuracy if someone has a more detailed estimate.

 

[MisterOne77]

Gonna be honest mates, I don't mind it.

 

[RacingFan1]

This is not really about how much money one needs to get the unicorns, or how long it takes. It's the disparity between online and offline payouts that's the problem. For me, on average, the ratio is at least 20:1* p/h of race time. This doesn't take into account practising and qualifying, or waiting between races. My 10 wins and other decent results will occasionally boost my earnings from Sport races but earning potential from the meta earners is still way out in front.

*This is a very rough guesstimate. I will concede its accuracy if someone has a more detailed estimate.

Everything is related. If you dont spend any money on car upgrades, you save all that money to buy the unicorn cars much quicker.

 

[Sander 001]

If they ever figure out collision faults, would be awesome for dirty/accident prone drivers to see -$40,000 deducted whenever they punted somebody

Please provide evidence.

They way he’s contradicted himself, I wonder if he’s talking about another other split personality

What makes it irrelevant? We all get 24 hours a day to with what we want, therefore things that are time dependent are equally available to everyone.

I've been playing GT for 20 years, I have no sport mode wins... that tells me that becoming part of the >1% is significantly less achievable than getting a 20 mill car, which took about a week using rubberbands or something that I've achieved twice over in normal play since last year.

I understand the silliness of this standpoint by the way, I'm just trying to demonstrate the silliness of the entitled and impatient argument against the credits system.

No, what you’ve done is demonstrated what a strawman argument is.

 

[rallymorten]

I said better than nothing.

Yes, but you also said:

it's a way to make more additional money even if its less than in other games.

So you're totally, 100% and absolutely fine with only being able to win one prize car per day - a car you can't sell for credits that could go towards buying other cars?

I remember GT5 being crazy hard to get all of them and be able to upgrade them all

I'm not saying GT5 gave you "everything in five minutes". I (and @Famine too, by the way) am saying that GT5 - when online - had the login bonus and seasonal events that'd stuff you with money, neither of which is the case in Sport. In its current offline state, yes, it very much is as grindy a mess as Sport is, but was it like that before then?

you have no proof because you dont have the exact numbers.

I haven't exactly seen you post any sort of numbers either, soo.. at which point did you consider that argument a game changer in your favor?

I've been playing GT Sport for a year and I only have 3 unicorn cars left to buy.

Fantastic. Good for you. So it's been an entire year and you haven't bought all of them? Which somehow proves your point about the economy system being perfectly balanced.. how, exactly?

How much of your game time over this past year has been dedicated to grinding on Sport?

Please calculate what the upgrades cost for each car if you want, in GT5 and GT6, if you have free time, the amount of money you need only for upgrades is insane.

..and now you want me to prove *your* point? I'm not entirely sure this is how debates work. But hey, if you're not willing to provide your own evidence, I'll gladly do it for you at the next given opportunity.

Its not only about how much you earn, but also how much you need to spend, and in GT Sport the credit upgrade spending is exactly 0.

I'm not saying that's not the case, I'm just saying cars aren't exactly cheaper in Sport just because of that. The Shelby Daytona costing more than 10 million to upgrade in GT6 is quite the stretch, wouldn't you say? The Lamborghini Countach has miraculously sky-rocketed by a good million and a half - and again, I seriously doubt it'd ever cost that much to upgrade it in GT6. It all kind of evens itself out, doesn't it?

 

[Mr616]

Is that because they need more people to pass or they want more people to pass. I suspect the former. It has nothing to do with people expecting they should pass.

A percentage of certain demographics who were applying were not good enough to pass the practical tests, so to help boost those demographics from a statistical point of view (which were also set as targets because of external pressure), they made it easier (in very basic terminology). This improves nothing and only lowers standards. e.g If the test was good enough for the past 10 years, why does it now have to be easier now? Is it because the skill set is declining within the younger generations? Why then, can they not improve to the old standard? (Don't answer, these are just rhetorical).

We're getting into off topic, so I'll just leave it here I think.

The modern world has changed but it hasn't turned everyone into a winner. Just like the fact that I had access to chocolate at any point during my childhood didn't turn me into a glutton (despite the fact that I love chocolate). For generations people have complained how a changing world is having a negative affect on the abilities and/or moral compass of each new generation. If we look back through history, we can see, for the most part, the opposite is true.

I disagree. Moral compass and what the younger generations expect, act like, and the respect shown to older generations is declining (imo) generally speaking. You could attribute this to parenting and how much investment of time some parents have with their children and what they do or don't teach them. Social skills are also on the decline with the rise of social media. I personally feel I have lived through possibly the best decades, with a nice balance of technology, morals and improvements to quality of life, but now we are passing that stage and devolving into something much less, which is derailing the bigger issues we may face in future.

We're getting into politics here and I won't get into it any further. This isn't the time or place to deep dive into rabbit holes lol.

Thanks for a civil discussion though

 

[Tired Tyres]

Right, all this incessant "the economy's not broken, it's Gran Turismo, you're just moaning and groaning" and "the economy is broken because the game forces you to grind (for what you want)" has made me break out GTPEDIA. I hope you're happy.

Ignoring prize cars, which are to a greater or lesser degree "set" and not under the direct influence of the user, and assuming all of the one-shot events have already been completed for the prize money available, here's how many races you have to do to get the most expensive car in the game in the most efficient way possible:

GT1:
Car - Any Special Car: 500,000cr
Race - Hard Tuned Car: 8 races (~1hr); 50,000cr race win (x8), 100,000cr championship bonus (x1)
Rate - 0.5m cr/hr

GT2
Car - Various: 2,000,000cr
Race - GT500 Car Championship: 14 races (~1.5hr); 50,000cr race win (x14), 300,000cr championship bonus (x2), sell prize car (x2)
Rate - 1.35m cr/hr

GT3
Car - P001/F094/H: 3,500,000cr
Race - Special Stage Route 11 Endurance - 5 races (~7.5hr); 550,000cr race win (x5), sell prize car (x5)
Rate - 0.5m cr/hr

GT4
Car - Various: 4,500,000cr
Race - Rally de Capri (Easy): 32 races (~2.66hr); 5,000cr race win (x32), sell prize car (x16)
Rate - 1.69m cr/hr

GT5
Car - Various: 20,000,000cr
*Race - Extreme/Dream Car/B-Spec: 315 races (~23.25hr); 22,700cr race win (x315), 206,000cr championship bonus (x63)
*Rate - 0.87m cr/hr

GT6
Car - Various: 20,000,000cr
*Race - Red Bull X2014 Standard Championship: 90 races (~5.8hr); ~128,000cr race win (x90), 500,000cr championship bonus (x18)
*Rate - 3.55m cr/hr

GT Sport
Car - Various: 20,000,000cr
**Race - Nostalgic 1979/La Sarthe: 84 races (~9.9hr); 240,000cr race win with Clean Race bonus (x84)
**Rate - 2.04m cr/hr


So, as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Yes, it takes longer than in GT6 to earn the money required if you want one of the highest value cars, but it's actually still possible to earn money at a much higher rate than in most previous GT games. But aside from GT5, it takes the longest amount of time to actually buy one of those highest value cars, because they are much more expensive than in previous GT games - and GT5 was actually just about as quick when the servers were still on.

The net result is that GT Sport takes longer than any other active GT game to buy the highest value cars, even if it's in the top three for the rate at which you can earn money.

That's why it seems like a grind to some people but not to others - money can come quick (four times faster than GT1), but you need way, way more of it to buy the most expensive cars (forty times more expensive than GT1).

But all that aside, the fastest ways to earn money are offline in a game that didn't originally even have that offline mode because the focus was online esports. If PD want to encourage people into online, a zero on the end of the payouts will help, and having it tied to your SR will help even more...


*Both GT5 and GT6 had higher-paying events when the servers were still live, plus a login bonus.
**Requires high value car to buy in to the race; next quickest is 1.8m cr/hr, for 54 races/10.6hr.

GT2 doesn't look right. Red rock valley one five lap race. Prize TVR Speed 12?

I'm going from memory though. What's the book say?