You're the one who isn't getting it! I'm not sure this bears repeating seeing as you've failed to understand thus far but even though it lacks some of the components of a petrol engine, such as the spark plugs, you can still work on a diesel engine with the same tools. You'd know this if you'd really ever done any work on engines, as you like to claim.
Emissions scandals thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
- 634 comments
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You're the one who isn't getting it! I'm not sure this bears repeating seeing as you've failed to understand thus far but even though it lacks some of the components of a petrol engine, such as the spark plugs, you can still work on a diesel engine with the same tools. You'd know this if you'd really ever done any work on engines, as you like to claim.
- 87,479
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Oh but you did:
It is just VW known to be cheating the test, and only in some cases. The BMW to which you refer is only an example of a car not getting the same real world emissions as test emissions - which probably applies to every car.
I guessed, but I don't see the relevance.
If I wanted to have the post removed I would have already removed it.
The article conflates cheating the test - something only VW is known to do - with getting higher emissions in the real world. It is badly written and creates the impression that not getting the same real-world emissions as the car gets in the initial emissions test is what the kerfuffle is about and that any car that does so has cheated the test.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
What i hope we all get out of this is a standard of testing that gives us accurate real world driving Economy and emissions numbers.
The current way these figures is published is completely inaccurate and its a guessing game if the manufacture is putting numbers close to real figures or falsifying information to make their car sound better on paper.
The current way these figures is published is completely inaccurate and its a guessing game if the manufacture is putting numbers close to real figures or falsifying information to make their car sound better on paper.
- 3,202
- Philippines
- skygrasper_550--
Oh dear, this is properly scary. If the investigations prove to be true, stating "Volkswagen is going to be in a huge amount of trouble" is a massive understatement. Recalling up to 11 million cars, a mountain of lawsuits (some of them would be from the US government, who'd be more than happy to throw at them), and not to mention that nuclear bomb of a US$18 billion (yes, BILLION) fine. Good lord.
I read some news around, and I have never seen stocks from a company plunge-- nay, nose-dive around 30%. That is a big OUCH
, indeed.
Talk about its namesake, it's no longer the "people's car", but rather, the "corrupt corporate executive's car".
I read some news around, and I have never seen stocks from a company plunge-- nay, nose-dive around 30%. That is a big OUCH
, indeed.Talk about its namesake, it's no longer the "people's car", but rather, the "corrupt corporate executive's car".
Here in Belgium, most people won't lose faith in diesel. Problem is that their bankaccount/wallet is more important than their health and air pollution. Driving a diesel is less expensive than driving a gasoline engine. The Belgian government is looking into making diesel as expensive as gasoline. If they succeed, more people are going to buy a gasoline car rather than a diesel. But not because of what VW did. It's all about how expensive a car is to drive daily.
Some people lost faith in VW not in the fuel (diesel) in general.
- 29,358
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Audi has announced that 2.1 million of their cars were fitted with the same defeat device as the affected VWs...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-fitted-with-VW-emissions-cheat-devices.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-fitted-with-VW-emissions-cheat-devices.html
- 87,479
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
That's already both going to happen and not.
The current EU method of assessing new car emissions is the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) and intends to simulate typical European driving. It is hilariously wrong, has been with us since the 1970s and will be replaced by the Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedures (WLTP) in 2017.
However nothing can simulate "real-world" driving accurately. There's too many variables - how warm is the car, how warm is the air, how dense is the air, how wet is the air, how many electrical gadgets do you have running, how open are the windows, how open is the sunroof, how inflated are your tyres, are your wheels aligned - before you even get to how people drive and where.
You can probably get to 75th percentile, with a confidence of 3mpg. But no better - some people will always get worse fuel economy because they can't drive. Still, a test that achieves this is better than a test where everyone gets worse because the test is ludicrously optimised.
Not a shock, that. I think I already fingered all but the A1 last week. My full list was:
Audi
A3 2010-2015
A4 2008-2015
A5 2008-2015
A6 2011-2015
TT 2008-2014
Q3 2011-2015
Q5 2009-2012
Skoda
Octavia 2009-2013
Superb 2008-2015
Yeti 2009-2013
Seat
Altea 2009-2014
Leon 2012-2015
Alhambra 2010-2015
Altea 2009-2014
Exeo 2008-2013
VW
Beetle 2009-2015
Golf 2009-2015
Jetta 2009-2015
Passat 2014-15
Scirocco 2009-2015
Eos 2009-2014
CC 2012-2015
Touran 2010-2015
Sharan 2009-2015
Tiguan 2009-2015
I think the Jeep Patriot and Mitsubishi Lancer also use the same engine.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,029
- Mile High City
This bothers me, and it should bother everyone following this story.
While it is a totally relevant, separate, comment that the tests are not accurate representations of real-world emissions, it does a huge disservice to confuse the issues between higher real-world emissions and a defeat device that bypasses the test. Higher real-world emissions is something that every manufacturer has, and is a level playing field when it comes to the test. Having higher real-world emissions than the test isn't just better than what VW did, it's not actually bad. It's participating within the rules in the same way that every company is. It's what everyone should (and mostly does) expect from every car company.
What VW did is bypass the rules in order to push a product that has the potential to do harm, and even advertised how righteous their products were while doing it. So the difference between the VW diesel being 40x the emissions standard and BMW being 10x the emissions standard, is actually the difference between a company that is lying and cheating and a company that is (or at least appears to be as of the findings to date) being honest and thoughtful.
Mixing the two issues is (to an extent) wrongly letting VW off the hook and wrongly putting BMW on the hook.
- 17,304
- United Kingdom
Just been catching up on this..
Porsche SE increasing its stake in VW (by not much)...
Criminal Fraud investigation against Winterkorn
1.4 million Audi's, 1.2 million Skodas
Bosch confirm they supplied the software back in 2007, and told VW then that it would be illegal.
A round up of the effects in other countries from ANE
In VW's home market of Germany, where 2.8 million of the 11 million affected diesel cars are on the road, the government's transport agency, the KBA, has set an Oct. 7 deadline for the company to present a plan to bring diesel emissions into line with the law, Bild newspaper reported. If VW fails to satisfy the authorities, the KBA will withdraw type approval for the cars involved, which means they can no longer be sold or driven, Bild said.
France said it will carry out testing on its roads to establish whether vehicles are equipped with banned software of the kind used by VW.
Italy will test 1,000 cars from all the VW brands sold nationally, its transport minister said. VW's Italian unit has told its dealers to stop selling cars that it built with the affected engines, Italy's Corriera della Sera newspaper reported on Sunday. It said that would leave 40,000 cars stuck on Italian lots.
In Belgium, VW's distributor, D'Ieteren Auto, said it has stopped the commercialization of vehicles potentially fitted with the non-compliant software. This concerns diesel vehicles with the EA 189 engine (EU 5 standard) and with a displacement of 1.2 liters, 1.6 liters and 2.0 liters, for the VW, VW Commercial Vehicles, Audi, Seat and Skoda brands. The decision affects 3,200 vehicles in stock for the Belgian market, D'Ieteren said.
The Swiss authorities have said they are suspending sales of Volkswagen diesel vehicles that could contain devices capable of cheating emissions tests. Volkswagen's Swiss distributor AMAG said on Monday that 128,802 group vehicles registered in the market are affected by the emissions testing scandal. AMAG said the affected models were from Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda and VW commercial vehicle brands.
UK Prime Minister David Cameron refused to be drawn on whether the UK will follow Switzerland's lead and ban the sale of some of the beleaguered company's diesel vehicles. The UK's Department for Transport is re-running vehicle tests and investigating the regulatory failure that allowed VW to use "defeat" devices to conceal high emissions, it said in a statement on Thursday.
As many as 91,000 VW vehicles could be affected in Denmark, a company spokeswoman said on Monday. "We have not received chassis numbers yet, so we can neither look up the car nor contact customers yet, but we are working on this," Sos Ilum from Volkswagen Denmark said. Ilum said the cars would not be recalled, but that customers will be offered technical or software updates.
Porsche SE increasing its stake in VW (by not much)...
Criminal Fraud investigation against Winterkorn
1.4 million Audi's, 1.2 million Skodas
Bosch confirm they supplied the software back in 2007, and told VW then that it would be illegal.
A round up of the effects in other countries from ANE
In VW's home market of Germany, where 2.8 million of the 11 million affected diesel cars are on the road, the government's transport agency, the KBA, has set an Oct. 7 deadline for the company to present a plan to bring diesel emissions into line with the law, Bild newspaper reported. If VW fails to satisfy the authorities, the KBA will withdraw type approval for the cars involved, which means they can no longer be sold or driven, Bild said.
France said it will carry out testing on its roads to establish whether vehicles are equipped with banned software of the kind used by VW.
Italy will test 1,000 cars from all the VW brands sold nationally, its transport minister said. VW's Italian unit has told its dealers to stop selling cars that it built with the affected engines, Italy's Corriera della Sera newspaper reported on Sunday. It said that would leave 40,000 cars stuck on Italian lots.
In Belgium, VW's distributor, D'Ieteren Auto, said it has stopped the commercialization of vehicles potentially fitted with the non-compliant software. This concerns diesel vehicles with the EA 189 engine (EU 5 standard) and with a displacement of 1.2 liters, 1.6 liters and 2.0 liters, for the VW, VW Commercial Vehicles, Audi, Seat and Skoda brands. The decision affects 3,200 vehicles in stock for the Belgian market, D'Ieteren said.
The Swiss authorities have said they are suspending sales of Volkswagen diesel vehicles that could contain devices capable of cheating emissions tests. Volkswagen's Swiss distributor AMAG said on Monday that 128,802 group vehicles registered in the market are affected by the emissions testing scandal. AMAG said the affected models were from Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda and VW commercial vehicle brands.
UK Prime Minister David Cameron refused to be drawn on whether the UK will follow Switzerland's lead and ban the sale of some of the beleaguered company's diesel vehicles. The UK's Department for Transport is re-running vehicle tests and investigating the regulatory failure that allowed VW to use "defeat" devices to conceal high emissions, it said in a statement on Thursday.
As many as 91,000 VW vehicles could be affected in Denmark, a company spokeswoman said on Monday. "We have not received chassis numbers yet, so we can neither look up the car nor contact customers yet, but we are working on this," Sos Ilum from Volkswagen Denmark said. Ilum said the cars would not be recalled, but that customers will be offered technical or software updates.
- 9,089
- Scotland
Confused why they would sell it telling them it's illegal.
Suppose it's like using a radio scanner in the uk, illegal to use one but not illegal to own one.
Suppose it's like using a radio scanner in the uk, illegal to use one but not illegal to own one.
- 87,479
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
No, not at all.
The software in question includes all sorts of maps which are useful in vehicle production. They can turn bits of everything on or off - such as traction control, stability control, ABS or emissions equipment - which can be used in powertrain development.
They're entirely legal to use. What VW seems to have done is enable a test mode that should be disabled once the car leaves the factory, but only for the specific instance of an emissions test. That bit's the illegal bit.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,029
- Mile High City
...and we just went from "probably willful infringement" to "concrete evidence of willful infringement". Likelihood of prison time just went way up (not to mention damages, fines, etc.).
- 2,228
- Bielefeld
- tarnheld
Love that one, it's like the marshmallow test for engineers -- hey guys, we give you this software that solves all your problems, but please don't use it, remember it's illegal...
- 9,089
- Scotland
When Piech wants rid of someone he certainly goes to some level.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34381459
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34381459
- 27,219
- United Kingdom
I was under the impression that the diagnostic modes were entirely legal, but the layer of software designed to run when in these modes that wasn't?
As far as I've understood so far, the diagnostic modes are an essential part of being able to run emissions tests (and one would assume, dyno tests and other things that involve wheels rotating at different speeds not associated with regular driving) as they stop systems like ABS and TCS inadvertently kicking in when the car has its wheels on rollers - and in this case, an emissions testing stick up its exhaust pipe.
VW's cheatiness is that the car understands when it's in this essential diagnostic mode and activates software that changes the car's emissions while doing so. In theory, it could be operating in this mode when you take your VW TDI to be remapped too, though I don't know about that whole process deeply enough to know whether remappers have to tell the car to disable the TCS, ASC etc when they've got something strapped to the rollers.
I'm interested to see how this all pans out. I'm especially interested to see how many litigious owners decide to sue VW over emissions even if they're the sort who'd happily remove a DPF and block up the EGR plate if it made their tedious German hatchback a little quicker.
- 31,701
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
As am I, since our government is horny for taxing anything polluting. If it is so that it puts the VAG diesels in a higher tax class, I'm pretty sure VAG NL has to buy back quite a lot of cars, and pay a hefty compensation.
- 27,219
- United Kingdom
What is the tax there based on? In the UK it's CO2 alone, so all of this will mean diddly-squat as far as tax goes - unless HM Government decides that it's the last straw for diesels and comes up with a new way of squeezing money out of people.
A part of me is almost glad that something like this has finally happened, as there's a lot of BS knocking around about emissions and this seems to have stirred people awake to it, particularly when it comes to diesels. A larger part of me is disappointed that many people won't give much of a toss about actual emissions, they'll just see it as a way of making a quick buck. The largest part of me is concerned what it means for the car industry as a whole, since there are some bloody big dominoes toppling over at the moment and several more lined up along the way.
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,316
- United States
70's all over again?
- 31,701
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
CO2, but
I am 100% positive that this will happen if Europe is affected too.
- 10,839
- Plymouth, UK
- motorforum
Woah, that's a surprisingly tough stance from the Germans. You might wonder if they feel a sense of national embarrassment and therefore are going in hard to make a statement.
- 27,219
- United Kingdom
Potentially bigger. In the 70s, diesels really were slow, dirty and noisy. Huge improvements have been made and whole countries have staked their automotive technology on diesel in the last forty years. There are still plenty of things to recommend diesel cars - easy performance, good economy etc - but emissions are now a much bigger deal politically than they were even in fuel crisis/smog times.
- 17,304
- United Kingdom
- 10,839
- Plymouth, UK
- motorforum
I have to agree on the easy performance. I'm an N/A man, but boy does my dad's 2.0 CDTI shift with relative ease. You have to work harder for it with my petrol car.
Obelisk
Premium
- 9,778
- United States
- RMedia_Obelisk
I have one of the cars affected by the key debacle (just look at my avatar!), and while it upsets me I haven't been able to do anything about it. This whole VW debacle is a tragedy for gearheads and regular drivers everywhere. I sure as heck hope this is only VAG and none of the other companies are in on it. I'd hate to have to turn in my car for another defect/recall (It's only gas, not diesel...but ya never know).
