Thank you for the replying, but that doesn't really answer my question. My question is was there any push by government incentives to get car manufacturers to turn out more and more diesels? Because if so then I can see the manufacturers probably were forced into a corner.
Emissions scandals thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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Thank you for the replying, but that doesn't really answer my question. My question is was there any push by government incentives to get car manufacturers to turn out more and more diesels? Because if so then I can see the manufacturers probably were forced into a corner.
- 87,591
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
That may be the case for the USA, but not in Europe - and the question did state "governments". They were 25% of all new car sales already by 1995 and over half by 2005.
The reason... isn't really all that hard to spot. Car manufacturers had (voluntarily) agreed to meet CO2 targets as far back as 1995, promising a reduction of 25% by 2008.
Two important pieces of information in that puzzle are that diesel combustion is typically more efficient in terms of turning hydrocarbons into motion and carbon dioxide then petrol anyway and they'd also just been forced to put catalytic convertors onto petrol cars in 1993, which took all the harmful emissions from petrol engines and turned them into "harmless CO2" - causing a 5% increase in local CO2 emissions from petrol.
So yes, in a way, they were encouraged to produce more diesels.
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- GTP_Famine
Oh no, not at all. For a start the target was voluntary. For a follow-on, it was to reduce CO2 by 25% and was actually missed - though we're down by 33% now. It also was an industry-wide target, not a fleet average or an individual type approval.
The emissions thing we're seeing now is about nitrogen oxides and individual type approval figures. They're not related directly.
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- KCCO
IIRC no, but only to achieve a set mileage rating. The EPA may have expanded on this but I've yet to see the requirements they set forth.
Yeah I meant for the US. I used it from a paper I wrote in chemistry while in high school. The same with the CC's, as the Japanese had them going on their cars in the early to mid 70's iirc from my paper as well. That's one reason in the early to mid 90's here in the US leaded gas soon began to disappear because of the smog issue beginning to rapidly expand across America. Now the only place to find 100-98 leaded is at an airport for aircraft like C172's going as far back as the 60's.
Pretty much when VW started clean diesel to engage with the public that TDI is now far better than it was back in the 70-80's. However, as much as you try to edjumacate a 'Murican over here that drives a Chevy 'till the levy is dry, it only works for the open minded, and those accustomed to VW and other world wide products. That's why Europe and Britain have had such a large success like Famine said around the mid 90's with their TDI vehicles, vs what he have here.
Now that we have oodles of outlets for 24 hour news that keep puking the same story about this now ten times an hour, going nearly into every American's home, VW have a lot to do to get back some customers (even you from your early posting) to prove it's still as clean as their findings. Pop culture on the other-hand just wants to post more pictures of passats doing cold starts and spewing smoke.
From what I'm aware the main concern in the mid-nineties was MPG, and carbon dioxide levels; which diesel must have seemed perfect for. Aside from the odd university paper though I can't find much mention of public concern about diesel, and nitrous dioxide levels. Which makes me wonder if there was any concern about it at the time.
Seeing as public transport is apparently poor in the USA, and people drive much greater distances there, I'd have thought they'd have been queuing at the dealers doors for a diesel. Especially with the fantastic fuel economy, and engine performance. Frankly modern diesel engines are fantastic pieces of kit; just a shame about what comes out of the exhaust.
I'm open to adjusting my opinion along with learning more facts, of which I was originally not aware. Earlier I assumed it was simply over the past week that Volkswagen, and BMW to a much smaller extent, had been caught out. However upon researching emission scandals more closely I discovered this has happened several times all over the world, during the past few years...
Which got me wondering if there was some sort of legislation that forced manufacturers hands into producing engines, that they knew weren't as environmentally friendly as what governments were demanding. If there are many companies doing it, and not just the one, then it strikes me that the issue must be contradicting laws.
Still can't say I agree with the way they handled the situation if that was the case. But in that scenario they would have my sympathy.
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- KCCO
It was definitely a concern because there was still a PPM limit as far as what could be allowed as "acceptable" emissions. Diesel is quite complicated especially when the move to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel occured (around 2006 here in the states like I said earlier). Before that there really wasn't as much of a restriction on it compared to when gas used to be leaded.
Public transport is poor here just because of how big the US is. Unless you live IN the city, like, under neath the diamonds or stars on google maps, public transport is useless, and less time effective. You'd be better off walking in some instances.
Also, diesel engines aren't exactly cheap either. Since you're not going off of a fool proof way with petrol using spark plugs, you have to be sure that the compression will stay the same throughout the span of its life. If you lose compression, the engine is done for.
And the largest reason to why people don't flock to it, is because in years past from 2000 to just recently, diesel has been at least a dollar more than petrol per gallon. If you did have a diesel, you might have marginally beat out a petrol car, but just by operating costs and not any fuel savings. Now since diesel in some places is cheaper, it would be a great time to get one. BUT, like my dad suffered from when he bought his diesel truck (in 1999), prices immediately went up above petrol and beyond. It wasn't uncommon for some time to see it at $5.50 a gallon here.
It's not just VW and BMW taking the hit, it's all the German auto's and affiliates that produce diesel engines. Toyota won't be affected by it because they don't make any, GM has their own issues, and Ford... well Ford is just in a happy-go-lucky world with the GT soon to come. Their diesels are normally okay but lack any real torque and mpg comparability, and show little to no advancement other than chassis development from years past.
Did the PPM limit contain nitrous dioxide too, though? When I've looked it up I've only been presented with a ton of pages about Carbon Dioxide!
Diesel is a more expensive here in Europe too; but the much greater mileage on diesel means it works out to be a lot cheaper in the long run. Diesels are also a lot more reliable and tend to last longer, which means even more savings. But as I said before, the emissions make all that seem rather meaningless now.
Perhaps not in America they don't but here in Europe diesel Toyota's are quite common; although they're usually the Avensis model. If it turns out they've been fiddling their emissions also I'll be hastily looking for something to take cover under, because then 🤬 really will hit the fan...[/QUOTE]
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- KCCO
I believe so, but not sure so I won't say for sure.
Here is some info but I'm too tired right now to look into it much more.
Unless you reside in a town ruled by Boris Johnson... You'll be fine in a diesel.. I look at it like this:
Prius-See JC's response as to how a Prius is made.
Tesla-too expensive for me to own/buy
(any electric car)-my state won't sell enough of them by the law they enacted to limit EV's sold for benefits and tax exemptions given.
I don't want a four-pot, they're just not fun (My dad just got a new Chrysler 200 sport. The engine is good, but the 9-speed is horrendous...) and I've driven a v-6 for what seems like ages. A V-8 in the S4 right now seems like all I need, but I'd want the supercharged one.
Well I didn't mean in quantity but rather quality. The reason why they don't exist over here is that Cummins who supplies Ram with their inline 6 turbo diesel does the best job out of any of the others, Ford, and Chevy. Nissan I think just made their own, but I've yet to see one of those even at a dealer. Toyota won't bring one over here because they'd be crushed and it won't fit in their line-up anywhere, unless they update the Tundra (their F150 equivalent) to carry a diesel..
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- Puget Sound
- Crash852
Though it may be possible, especially in a small company, for just one engineer to be responsible for the cheat code and without anyone else's knowledge of it, I highly doubt that at an as large of an engineering firm as Volkswagen, where there would have been a team of engineers working together original to solve this problem, that the lone-wolf scenario is the case.
Was there a corporate-wide edict to commit fraud? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Did the CEO himself know that this was happening? Maybe, maybe not. I'm willing to bet money though that this was known to someone at least at the VP/Senior VP level; someone high up enough to have significant decision-making authority. Major engineering decisions like these don't get made by just one engineer without knowledge by other engineers or management oversight.
You have to draw a line somewhere though in categorizing emissions. Emissions will be made by a power plant whether you charge an electric car at night or not. The additional amount of emissions emitted by a power plant due to charging an electric car is a fraction of the emissions generated by a gas or diesel powered car.
It's wholly unfair to include the emissions emitted during power generation for electric cars and not include the emissions emitted during the refining of oil into either gasoline or diesel.
You do realize that Elon Musk did not post that tweet, right? That's from an Elon Musk-parody account. That account makes fun of Elon Musk.
Still a pretty funny tweet though.
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Just thought I'd post up the whole statement from BMW, you can see the emphasis they place on diesel for meeting CO2 regs, if there is a diesel backlash after this and the government doesn't adjust its targets to something more realistic, I'm not sure what the car companies can do, other than continue pushing people down the EV route.
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- motorforum
Surely it would be better to pour R&D into making the biggest reduction in petrol CO2 possible with naturally lower NOx emissions than the other way around?
Small turbocharged petrols are making very good gains in carbon dioxide outputs, and are already well ahead in terms of noxious gasses. Indeed, BMW's own 1.5 triple in the new 318i is only putting out 126g/km and it would be interesting to know the NOx output. A decade ago, some diesels were only at that level of CO2.
Small turbocharged petrols are making very good gains in carbon dioxide outputs, and are already well ahead in terms of noxious gasses. Indeed, BMW's own 1.5 triple in the new 318i is only putting out 126g/km and it would be interesting to know the NOx output. A decade ago, some diesels were only at that level of CO2.
- 29,375
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Breaking news: Robert Kilroy-Silk to be appointed as new CEO of VW...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/25/volkswagen-appoint-porsche-matthias-muller-new-boss
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/25/volkswagen-appoint-porsche-matthias-muller-new-boss
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- Germany
Breaking news: Robert Kilroy-Silk to be appointed as new CEO of VW...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/25/volkswagen-appoint-porsche-matthias-muller-new-boss
It's still not going to change anything, and everything affiliated with Volkswagen is still going to loose big time to a point where it could have some serious impact on our (Germany's) economy considering how many of the companies are associated with Volkswagen.
Generally speaking about the issue: It's a absolute farce that only one company is being blamed for something that will most likely be a common practice in the entire automotive industry. And 18 Billion dollars for this? I still remember the case where the ignition key thing with GM cars happened, where over 100 people died from this issue and they get cited 900 Million USD, where is the proportion in that?
Of course, I'm not saying it's cool what they did, but I still think that this entire thing is blown way out of proportion, at least in terms that VW is the only company has to pay an absurd amount of money.
Auto Bild has also found out that BMW's 2L Diesel is way above the standards, but nobody's screaming for absurd payments here?
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- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
Apparently BMW X3 diesel is also exceeding the emission limits.. by 11 times. Yes, ELEVEN.
- 29,375
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- GTP_Mars
The GM comparison has already been discussed/raised above, as has the 'proportion' issue... the $18bn figure being mentioned is just the possible fine under US law, but it remains to be seen what, if any, fines will be imposed presuming VW are found guilty. Incidentally, while the Clean Air Act provides for a fine of up to $37,500 per violation, it also mentions a figure of ten times less than that for each incidence of using defeat devices... I don't know if that would apply instead (hence the possible fine may be 10x lower than $18bn) or if that would be in addition. However, as for the question of proportionality, neither the VW or GM cases are fully resolved yet, and as I've said before, there's not really a clear comparison to be made - both incidences need to be judged on their own merits - it's not like one case will (or should) influence the other.
As for BMW, there's plenty of people talking about that already, and of course they will be in similar trouble if they are also at it, as will any other manufacturer who has done something similar. But it depends on scale... VW are in trouble because of the sheer number of sold cars that are affected, and also because what they have done is a clear breach of the law, rather than merely 'gaming' the testing procedures, as looks to be a widespread issue in the automotive industry.
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- tarnheld
This BMW and other manufacturer story is to be taken with a grain of salt. The followup report from the ICCT wants to show that many cars exceed emission standards in real life situations compared to the test bench. This does not imply that other companies cheated with defeat devices, like VW has admitted already.
EDIT: FYI here is the link to the ICCT white paper.
EDIT2: From the executive summary:
"The average, on-road emission levels of NOX were estimated at 7 times the certified emission limit for Euro 6 vehicles. There were, however, some remarkable differences among the performance of all the vehicles tested, with a few vehicles performing substantially better than the others (Figure 1). This supports the notion that the technologies for “real-world clean” diesels (i.e., vehicles whose average emission levels lie below Euro 6 emission limits under real-world driving) already exist. Policies are needed to ensure that manufacturers will use these technologies and calibrate them to effectively control emissions over the large majority of in-use operating conditions, not just those covered by the test cycle."
EDIT: FYI here is the link to the ICCT white paper.
EDIT2: From the executive summary:
"The average, on-road emission levels of NOX were estimated at 7 times the certified emission limit for Euro 6 vehicles. There were, however, some remarkable differences among the performance of all the vehicles tested, with a few vehicles performing substantially better than the others (Figure 1). This supports the notion that the technologies for “real-world clean” diesels (i.e., vehicles whose average emission levels lie below Euro 6 emission limits under real-world driving) already exist. Policies are needed to ensure that manufacturers will use these technologies and calibrate them to effectively control emissions over the large majority of in-use operating conditions, not just those covered by the test cycle."
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To back up what @tarnheld just said, this is a quote form the report:
"The 13 vehicles from BMW performed especially well over the NEDC (NOX CF of 0.2) and, despite a fivefold increase in emissions, were still somewhat better than average over the WLTC. The single Volkswagen vehicle that was tested by ADAC also had a low CF over both the NEDC and WLTC. Mercedes-Benz vehicles also had a relatively good average performance. Three single vehicles from Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai had 15 ICCT white paper very high NOX emissions over the WLTC (CFs of 14.6, 8.8, and 6.9, respectively). Interestingly, these vehicles were just on the edge of compliance under NEDC testing (CFs of 0.9, 1.0, and 0.9). These vehicles would very likely be unfit to pass the RDE test,"
And this CEO can buy another one. He got €28,000,000 severance package.
Not an official number but there are approximately 500,000 VW cars sold in Belgium with the "cheat software". Sales of "suspicious VW's" will be , uuuh, suspended (not sure if that is the correct word).
Bye, Bye diesel, hello electric cars.
Elon Musk payed Belgium a visited to promote his vision about electric cars and maybe, just maybe start building a Tesla factory over here. Correct business move (not the factory but the fact that he is talking to people in Europe when the hype around VW is so, uhm,.... huge)!
Bye, Bye diesel, hello electric cars.
Elon Musk payed Belgium a visited to promote his vision about electric cars and maybe, just maybe start building a Tesla factory over here. Correct business move (not the factory but the fact that he is talking to people in Europe when the hype around VW is so, uhm,.... huge)!
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Joel
Premium
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- Noob616
Yeah I agree, this is one of the most frustrating things about talking about electric cars. As if it's some grand conspiracy and nobody realizes that power plants exist.
It's also not really the point when we talk about emissions. Even if an electric and gas/diesel powered car make the same net emissions, it's better to have that coming from power plants away from the city than have hundreds of thousands of cars spewing emissions into the city air millions of people breathe.
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