Emissions scandals thread

[TenEightyOne]

Yeah I agree, this is one of the most frustrating things about talking about electric cars. As if it's some grand conspiracy and nobody realizes that power plants exist.

It's also not really the point when we talk about emissions. Even if an electric and gas/diesel powered car make the same net emissions, it's better to have that coming from power plants away from the city than have hundreds of thousands of cars spewing emissions into the city air millions of people breathe.

It's also far easier to capture those emissions.

 

[kikie]

Very interesting thread. Don't forget to read @Famine 's post. You can't miss it, it's #2.

Click

 

[Swagger897]

Very interesting thread. Don't forget to read @Famine 's post. You can't miss it, it's #2.

Click

lol... search function doesn't even go that far back

 

[tarnheld]

Very interesting thread. Don't forget to read @Famine 's post. You can't miss it, it's #2.

Interesting!

Diesel exhaust contains two of the most potent carcinogens ever tested. In fact, the top two - 3-Nitrobenzanthrone and 1,8-Dinitropyrene. They're the top two scorers in the Ames Test for carcinogens and are both exclusively produced by diesel combustion.

Hmm, 1,8-Dinitropyrene is produced in equal measure by petrol engines, see here:
http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol105/mono105-006.pdf

 

[Legro]

Something less significant, but still notable short term subsequence to the whole thing is almost initial increase in Skoda advertising. It may just be a coincidence, as they've recently released the new Superb, but I can imagine this being a busy time at Skoda dealers, when people who were about to buy a Volkswagen, go and buy the most similar thing they can imagine, without an idea of which company owns Skoda.

 

[Swagger897]

Something less significant, but still notable short term subsequence to the whole thing is almost initial increase in Skoda advertising. It may just be a coincidence, as they've recently released the new Superb, but I can imagine this being a busy time at Skoda dealers, when people who were about to buy a Volkswagen, go and buy the most similar thing they can imagine, without an idea of which company owns Skoda.

Speaking of adverts, I have yet to see the first one from VW, Merc, BMW, or Audi regarding the cars themselves. I have seen one from VW but it was more of an android commercial if anything.

 

[MatskiMonk]

 

[bremics]

Took me a minute... Kinda funny but that's kind of a anything on the road problem really.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

Will be interesting to see if anything comes of this:

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/09/diesel-bmw-mercedes-opel-psa-cars.html

 

[Famine]

Will be interesting to see if anything comes of this:

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/09/diesel-bmw-mercedes-opel-psa-cars.html

That's not an especially helpful article, as it conflates two issues.

The two issues are:
* Cars with specific bench-test cheat modes
* Cars that don't get the same economy/emissions in the real world

Not every car with the latter problem is a car that has the former problem, though every car that has the former problem has the latter one.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

That's not an especially helpful article, as it conflates two issues.

The two issues are:
* Cars with specific bench-test cheat modes
* Cars that don't get the same economy/emissions in the real world

Not every car with the latter problem is a car that has the former problem, though every car that has the former problem has the latter one.

I beg to differ. Whilst I get what you are saying if many more manufacturers are found to be in violation of emissions regulations then deliberately or not, the masses will loose all faith in diesel.

 

[Famine]

I beg to differ.

With what?

Not every car that gets higher real-world emissions does so because it has a test-cheating device. Almost all cars get higher real-world emissions - because the test does not simulate real-world driving.

One should not conflate test-cheating cars (which is, at the moment, some VWs) with cars that get higher emissions (which is, at the moment, all of them).

Whilst I get what you are saying if many more manufacturers are found to be in violation of emissions regulations then deliberately or not, the masses will loose all faith in diesel.

Petrol cars get higher emissions in real-world conditions too. This is precisely why one should not mix up cars getting worse fuel economy with cars that shunt into test mode and cheat the test.

 

[Swagger897]

With what?

Not every car that gets higher real-world emissions does so because it has a test-cheating device. Almost all cars get higher real-world emissions - because the test does not simulate real-world driving.

One should not conflate test-cheating cars (which is, at the moment, some VWs) with cars that get higher emissions (which is, at the moment, all of them).
Petrol cars get higher emissions in real-world conditions too. This is precisely why one should not mix up cars getting worse fuel economy with cars that shunt into test mode and cheat the test.

+1
That's why in the US (depending on state) after a car turns 10, for tax purposes, you have to have an emissions test.

As a car ages, it's not going to stay factory conditions 100,000k+ miles later and be within rules and regulations set during its era, so this helps solve the issue of rich burning cars (not actual currency but when fuel to air ratio is too high) and faulty CCs on the roads.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

With what?

Not every car that gets higher real-world emissions does so because it has a test-cheating device. Almost all cars get higher real-world emissions - because the test does not simulate real-world driving.

One should not conflate test-cheating cars (which is, at the moment, some VWs) with cars that get higher emissions (which is, at the moment, all of them).

As I effectively said in the post you quoted, I'm perfectly aware not all manufacturers who fail to meet emissions standards are cheating. I was never disagreeing with you on this.

Petrol cars get higher emissions in real-world conditions too. This is precisely why one should not mix up cars getting worse fuel economy with cars that shunt into test mode and cheat the test.

Of course, but you try telling that to the general public. Most are ill-informed about cars and what they're hearing in the news right now is how all about diesel. If it then turns out most diesels are falling afoul by a significant margin, then it's going to completely destroy their confidence in the fuel.

 

[Famine]

As I effectively said in the post you quoted, I'm perfectly aware not all manufacturers who fail to meet emissions standards are cheating. I was never disagreeing with you on this.

Then I don't know what you're begging to differ about. My previous post was explaining why that article - which makes the mistake of saying cars that exceed test results on the road are in the same category as cars that cheat the test - is unhelpful.

Of course, but you try telling that to the general public. Most are ill-informed about cars

Then perhaps unhelpful articles that muddy the issue should be flagged as such. As I did.

and what they're hearing in the news right now is how all about diesel. If it then turns out most diesels are falling afoul by a significant margin, then it's going to completely destroy their confidence in the fuel.

In Europe, that seems unlikely unless more manufacturers are shown to be cheating. The danger of that article is that it suggests other manufacturers are cheating, based on them not repeating test results on the road - which isn't what the cheat is.

In the USA, they already have no confidence in diesel in passenger cars. That's why only 1 in 4 VWs sold there was diesel and only 2.5% of all cars are diesel - compared to around 55% in Europe.

 

[Swagger897]

Of course, but you try telling that to the general public. Most are ill-informed about cars and what they're hearing in the news right now is how all about diesel.

You mean those kinda people like this?

In the end Volkswagen (and other companies) could have ceased mass-production of diesels, and it wouldn't have cost them much money to do so. At the end of the day an engine is an engine, be it diesel or petrol; so all the equipment used to produce the diesels could simply have been used to up the production of petrol engines instead.

Yeah... you teach'em.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

Then I don't know what you're begging to differ about. My previous post was explaining why that article - which makes the mistake of saying cars that exceed test results on the road are in the same category as cars that cheat the test - is unhelpful.Then perhaps unhelpful articles that muddy the issue should be flagged as such. As I did.In Europe, that seems unlikely unless more manufacturers are shown to be cheating. The danger of that article is that it suggests other manufacturers are cheating, based on them not repeating test results on the road - which isn't what the cheat is.

In the USA, they already have no confidence in diesel in passenger cars. That's why only 1 in 4 VWs sold there was diesel and only 2.5% of all cars are diesel - compared to around 55% in Europe.

You're saying you feel diesels reputation in Europe won't be heavily damaged if others are found to be in foul of emissions regulations; which I don't agree with. In my opinion even if it's not done deliberately a lot of people won't want to touch diesel with a stick afterwards.

You mean those kinda people like this?

Yeah... you teach'em.

Wow, that was called for! Tell you what, how about you come back to me when you've actually worked on an engine; as opposed to making an idiotic comment on something you clearly know nothing about?!

 

[Swagger897]

You're saying you feel diesels reputation in Europe won't be heavily damaged if others are found to be in foul of emissions regulations; which I don't agree with. In my opinion even if it's not done deliberately a lot of people won't want to touch diesel with a stick afterwards.



Wow, that was called for! Tell you what, how about you come back to me when you've actually worked on an engine; as opposed to making an idiotic comment on something you clearly know nothing about?!

HA... please. You do own a diesel car/truck/or van right to be making those comments right?

 

[NOVOCAINE]

HA... please. You do own a diesel car/truck/or van right to be making those comments right?

Owning one has sod all to do with point I was making; over which you then decided to make a personal attack against me! If you knew what you were talking about, which you clearly don't, and if you'd ever worked on an engine, which you clearly haven't, you'd know it's the same tool-kit for working on both.

 

[Famine]

You're saying you feel diesels reputation in Europe won't be heavily damaged if others are found to be in foul of emissions regulations; which I don't agree with.

Actually, I said literally the opposite of that...

In Europe, that seems unlikely unless more manufacturers are shown to be cheating.

And I said it 3 posts after the one you begged to differ with - which only said that the linked article conflated dissimilar real-world emissions with test cheating, which makes it unhelpful.

So I still don't know what you're begging to differ about. The article does conflate higher real world emissions with cheating the test, and this is unhelpful as it leads to the exact mindset you describe of "the general public" who are "ill-informed about cars" thinking everyone's cheating the test, when the truth as we know it at the moment is that only VW is and only in some cases.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

Actually, I said literally the opposite of that...
And I said it 3 posts after the one you begged to differ with - which only said that the linked article conflated dissimilar real-world emissions with test cheating, which makes it unhelpful.

So I still don't know what you're begging to differ about.

I must have misinterpreted what you said then. My bad.

The article does conflate higher real world emissions with cheating the test, and this is unhelpful as it leads to the exact mindset you describe of "the general public" who are "ill-informed about cars" thinking everyone's cheating the test, when the truth as we know it at the moment is that only VW is and only in some cases.

Except it's not just VW; a BMW X3 was tested and found to be way over the limit. That could have just been an isolated case, but we don't know for sure yet. And there was an incident in South Korea last year were both Kia and Hyundai were fined $300-million each, for misrepresenting fuel economy, and emissions.

And I shared that article because I feel it will be interesting, deliberate or otherwise, to see if any others fall afoul. Curiosity isn't a crime, you know.

 

[Swagger897]

Owning one has sod all to do with point I was making

Are you sure?

tell you what, how about you come back to me when you've actually worked on an engine

ahh... there's your answer. Was that not enough?

then decided to make a personal attack against me!

Pff.. pointing out the obvious/careless is not an attack on someone.

If you knew what you were talking about, which you clearly don't, and if you'd ever worked on an engine, which you clearly haven't, you'd know it's the same tool-kit for working on both.

reeeeeaaaaally......? Have you ever taken off the plastic under the hood before? That's the vibe I'm getting here. You probably still even assume diesels' use spark plugs..

a BMW X3 was tested and found to be way over the limit.

No physical evidence has been proven over this vehicle, only Auto Bild claimed it did, but have yet to back that up.
(which they have now retracted apparently)

And there was an incident in South Korea last year were both Kia and Hyundai were fined $300-million each, for misrepresenting fuel economy, and emissions.

Big whoop.. So did Ford with they Hybrid Fusion when claimed it achieved 47 mpg, which no one, even the road testers for various magazines and NHTSA said they could even achieve (It was in fact 10 over, but 2016 has been 'refined' and now 'achieves' 44).

 

[Famine]

Except it's not just VW; a BMW X3 was tested and found to be way over the limit.

Except it is just VW. The BMW X3 has been tested and found to be running higher emissions in the real world than in the test, but - and this is the crucial point - without any suggestion that it has a defeat device.

Again, this is the risk of conflating cars that can pass the test but get higher emissions in the real world - which is just about all of them - and cars that have a "defeat device" fitted so that they can pass the test.

 

[NOVOCAINE]

Are you sure?

Definite!

ahh... there's your answer. Was that not enough?

Nope!

Pff.. pointing out the obvious/careless is not an attack on someone.

Except you weren't pointing out the obvious. You were attempting to humiliate me by making a smart-arse jibe; but instead only succeeded in displaying your own ignorance.

reeeeeaaaaally......? Have you ever taken off the plastic under the hood before? That's the vibe I'm getting here. You probably still even assume diesels' use spark plugs..

Before I switched my career focus to graphic design I briefly attended a mechanics course. And one of the very first things we did, health and safety aside, was to take apart and reassemble the main block of two engines (with professional supervision, obviously). First we did petrol, and then we did diesel. So I'm talking out of my experience, and not out of my backside!

And obviously diesels don't have spark-plugs. But I was never talking about the engine components; rather the tools used to work on them. And they are the same. Something which you clearly have no first-hand experience of!

No physical evidence has been proven over this vehicle, only Auto Bild claimed it did, but have yet to back that up.
(which they have now retracted apparently)

Fair enough! Doesn't change the fact VW aren't the only manufacturer to be caught out over the past few years.

Big whoop.. So did Ford with they Hybrid Fusion when claimed it achieved 47 mpg, which no one, even the road testers for various magazines and NHTSA said they could even achieve (It was in fact 10 over, but 2016 has been 'refined' and now 'achieves' 44).

Which makes me wonder with all the discrepancies between manufacturers figures and real world figures, if there isn't something inherently wrong with testing standards, and regulations.

Except it is just VW. The BMW X3 has been tested and found to be running higher emissions in the real world than in the test, but - and this is the crucial point - without any suggestion that it has a defeat device.

Exactly! If cars are being found to run much higher emissions without defeat devices, and it gets widely reported, then surely the majority will get put off? Because they will most likely see it as 'definitive' proof that diesel can never be clean. Except at the right temperatures it can. But do you really think the general public are aware of this?

Again, this is the risk of conflating cars that can pass the test but get higher emissions in the real world - which is just about all of them - and cars that have a "defeat device" fitted so that they can pass the test.

Which is why I'm thinking about the effect on diesel, rather than on car manufacturers. Because if they haven't dodged regulations deliberately then there's nothing to be held against them.

 

[Swagger897]

Definite!

Nope!

Hmm... guess I'll have to take a picture of my engine bay and post back with circles around every single thing I've had to replace in it..

Except you weren't pointing out the obvious. You were attempting to humiliate me by making a smart-arse jibe; but instead only succeeded in displaying your own ignorance.

No, I was point out the obvious, which now you have made even more so..

Before I switched my career focus to graphic design I briefly attended a mechanics course. And one of the very first things we did, health and safety aside, was to take apart and reassemble the main block of two engines (with professional supervision, obviously). First we did petrol, and then we did diesel. So I'm talking out of my experience, and not out of my backside!

And obviously diesels don't have spark-plugs. But I was never talking about the engine components; rather the tools used to work on them. And they are the same. Something which you clearly have no first-hand experience of!

Would you like to see my shop?

 

[NOVOCAINE]

Hmm... guess I'll have to take a picture of my engine bay and post back with circles around every single thing I've had to get a mechanic to replace in it..

Fixed! 👍

 

[Famine]

Exactly!

No, not really. You just claimed it wasn't just VW with the defeat device because a BMW did it too. Except a BMW didn't do it. A BMW did something else - something normal, in fact.

If cars are being found to run much higher emissions without defeat devices, and it gets widely reported, then surely the majority will get put off? Because they will most likely see it as 'definitive' proof that diesel can never be clean.

And to repeat, it's not diesel. ALL cars run higher emissions on the road than in the initial emissions test, because the emissions test does not accurately simulate road driving.

Even if you get a test that did, it wouldn't accurately replicate what people see in their own cars, because people drive in different ways.


Just to say it again:
* All cars have higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test.
* Some Volkswagen diesel passenger cars have a defeat device that allows them to pass an emissions test that they wouldn't normally pass and they have higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test.

The data that says a different diesel car had higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test is not evidence that it's part of the second category. The article you posted was written so as to pretend that it is.

Such articles are not helpful because it means people will habitually conflate the normal occurrence of a car showing higher emissions in normal road use with the exceptional occurrence of a car with an emissions test mode.

 

[Swagger897]

if there isn't something inherently wrong with testing standards, and regulations.

more so of this...

definitive' proof that diesel can never be clean.

not true..

Fixed! 👍

okay son... please..
this is my man cave... I've inherited quite a few things, but 50% of it is purchased by me..
You also seem to be attacking me now... but who cares..

 

[NOVOCAINE]

No, not really. You just claimed it wasn't just VW with the defeat device because a BMW did it too. Except a BMW didn't do it. A BMW did something else - something normal, in fact.And to repeat, it's not diesel. ALL cars run higher emissions on the road than in the initial emissions test, because the emissions test does not accurately simulate road driving.

I claimed no such thing! I only shared an article that suggested it might be the case. I even said in response to your first reply to the link I shared that I was aware not all manufacturers who fail to meet standards are cheating. So unless you thought I'm the one who wrote the article, which I'm not, then I can't see how you could possibly think that that was what I was implying.

Plus I'm aware it isn't just diesel. But diesel is the one that will take all the flack because it is the one that is getting mentioned all over the media right now, and is therefore in the public conscious. Not petrol.

Even if you get a test that did, it wouldn't accurately replicate what people see in their own cars, because people drive in different ways.

It's not just the way people drive, either. The temperature plays a big part as when the engine isn't warmed up, it isn't running as efficiently; so it emits more gasses then.

Just to say it again:
* All cars have higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test.
* Some Volkswagen diesel passenger cars have a defeat device that allows them to pass an emissions test that they wouldn't normally pass and they have higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test.

The data that says a different diesel car had higher emissions in normal road use than in the emissions test is not evidence that it's part of the second category. The article you posted was written so as to pretend that it is.

Okay, so you do know I didn't write the article...

Such articles are not helpful because it means people will habitually conflate the normal occurrence of a car showing higher emissions in normal road use with the exceptional occurrence of a car with an emissions test mode.

If you want to have the post with the article attached removed, then be my guest. I shared the article thinking it would interesting to follow the story, and see if any more manufacturers were rigging emissions. Frankly I don't see how the article is trying to represent speculation as facts; I wouldn't have shared it otherwise.

not true..

I even said as much in the very next sentence. Which you have conveniently deleted! The full quote, for anyone else reading...

Exactly! If cars are being found to run much higher emissions without defeat devices, and it gets widely reported, then surely the majority will get put off? Because they will most likely see it as 'definitive' proof that diesel can never be clean. Except at the right temperatures it can. But do you really think the general public are aware of this?

okay son... please..
this is my man cave... I've inherited quite a few things, but 50% of it is purchased by me..

Proves nothing. My Granddad has a garage with tools in it but doesn't mean he knows how to fix an engine. Plus if you really knew as much as you like to claim about engines, you'd know you don't need separate tool kits for both petrol and diesel...

You also seem to be attacking me now... but who cares..

Don't give it if you can't take it sunshine! 👍

 

[Swagger897]

I even said as much in the very next sentence. Which you have conveniently deleted! The full quote, for anyone else reading...

You still seem to be under the misconception that BMW is cheating, which is what I meant by "not true".

Proves nothing. My Granddad has a garage with tools in it but doesn't mean he knows how to fix an engine. Plus if you really knew as much as you like to claim about engines, you'd know you don't need separate tool kits for both petrol and diesel...

You still don't get it do you...?

Guess I'll really have to wait till Wednesday before I can post it though.. so sit tight (might as well watch some more of the world's worst show too).