Emissions scandals thread

[Famine]

EA288 diesel engines don't have the cheat software:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/vo...ns-scandal-ea288-diesel-engines-not-affected/

It still won't do much for VW's reputation.

It's worth reading beyond the headline.

What VW actually said was "no software constituting an improper defeat device as defined in law is installed in vehicles with EA288". That's a very carefully worded statement which has passed over the corporate lawyers a few times in the process.

I really fail to see why it is so hard to stick a probe in an exhaust, plug in a laptop to the obd and go for a drive.

It's because it's not about what the cars do when actually driving... It's all about that New European Driving Cycle - and because this is a standardised test it has standardised procedures. All of the exhausts emissions are collected and analysed by weight and you can't do that on the road because you'd need to carry a bag behind you capable of holding about a million litres of gas.

Exhaust probes, such as the ones you get on roadworthiness tests like the UK's MOT, measure small volumes of air for parts-per-million. That's largely good enough to assess how your car is performing compared to some relatively broad limits, but not sufficient for the finer-tuned tests that determine a car's tax bracket. When you consider VW's figure of £100m per 1g reduction in CO2, it's no surprise that manufacturers would not be keen on the "plug it in and drive it about" technique.


NEDC is at fault in many respects. It's a bad test that doesn't reflect the real world and the procedures are known and can be gamed. Few manufacturers go as far as to actually cheat it - I mean, who'd cheat on a test that you already know what the questions are?

A test needs to be developed that gets to within the 75th percentile of normal car use and the driving habits of the 75th percentile of drivers - with the test repeated for "doddering" and "lunatic" drivers to give a confidence level. As things stand, the first part of the test is "accelerate to 15km/h in 4s" and I don't even drive that lethargically in a traffic jam. This is also the most strenuously accelerative part of the test... And at no point is steering required.

Then the exact testing procedure needs to be concealed from manufacturers. They will not appreciate this, especially if their cars are found to be worse than someone else's in a test conducted in secret and so therefore obviously biased against them, so failing that it should be conducted at an automotive testing facility*, outdoors so that all four wheels are turning, at as close to 75th percentile weather as is possible (temperature, pressure, humidity). The test should include manouevring, so that some turn angle is involved to limit the usefulness of that to 'defeat devices'. It should also be repeatable to within 10% by a random selection of production models plucked from dealerships before sale.

* Of course if the GPS detects the location as a test facility, it might enable a 'defeat device' mode - but these facilities are not just for emissions purposes, so that would not be wise.

 

[synchromesh]

It's not a scandal that killed anybody (unlike GM) but it's still such a cheap move.
I guess I'm old school for bringing up the trucks here "Rollin coal" but it's amazing how they cheated. I always thought of VW as a clean and technological company. They betrayed all of us I suppose.

 

[Famine]

It's not a scandal that killed anybody (unlike GM)

You might want to just check yourself on that one.

In the UK, air pollution from oxides of nitrogen is estimated to contribute to 20,000 deaths a year. The cut in NOx levels from cars was supposed to be to one-eighth - from 500mg/km to 80mg/km - between the Euro 3 regulations in 2000 and the Euro 6 regulations in 2014, which would reduce pollution and thus deaths.

The atmospheric NOx levels ought to have fallen too - not by the same levels, as other sources still exist. Heavy duty diesel engines in trucks and buses, for example (though they too are subject to Euro 6 limits, of 400mg/km), or power stations. And they have - they've roughly halved - but crucially not at the roadside. In fact roadside NOx levels haven't fallen appreciably since 1998 when we didn't even regulate for NOx - and the figures for VW engines suggest that they are still producing nearly 500mg/km NOx when not in test mode. In some streets the NOx levels exceed the annual level under EU guidelines every week.


So the 'defeat device' has allowed VW and potentially others to meet legal limits under test conditions while still producing NOx at pre-regulation levels. It's worth noting that the UK's annual NOx loading is about a million tons and just the VW models involved in this are emitting 50,000 tons annually more than they say they are - more than Europe's biggest coal-fired power station (Drax, also in the UK) emits annually.

I'm pretty sure that this has killed some people. A lot of some people. I'd estimate around a thousand a year this century - so 15,000 in total. Just in the UK.

Mainly in towns and cities where there's a lot of traffic.

 

[synchromesh]

You might want to just check yourself on that one.

In the UK, air pollution from oxides of nitrogen is estimated to contribute to 20,000 deaths a year. The cut in NOx levels from cars was supposed to be to one-eighth - from 500mg/km to 80mg/km - between the Euro 3 regulations in 2000 and the Euro 6 regulations in 2014, which would reduce pollution and thus deaths.

The atmospheric NOx levels ought to have fallen too - not by the same levels, as other sources still exist. Heavy duty diesel engines in trucks and buses, for example (though they too are subject to Euro 6 limits, of 400mg/km), or power stations. And they have - they've roughly halved - but crucially not at the roadside. In fact roadside NOx levels haven't fallen appreciably since 1998 when we didn't even regulate for NOx - and the figures for VW engines suggest that they are still producing nearly 500mg/km NOx when not in test mode. In some streets the NOx levels exceed the annual level under EU guidelines every week.


So the 'defeat device' has allowed VW and potentially others to meet legal limits under test conditions while still producing NOx at pre-regulation levels. It's worth noting that the UK's annual NOx loading is about a million tons and just the VW models involved in this are emitting 50,000 tons annually more than they say they are - more than Europe's biggest coal-fired power station (Drax, also in the UK) emits annually.

I'm pretty sure that this has killed some people. A lot of some people. I'd estimate around a thousand a year this century - so 15,000 in total. Just in the UK.

Mainly in towns and cities where there's a lot of traffic.

VW or not pollution kills people and animals. It's a contribution, but more indirect if anything.
Also, wow; you really know your stuff man.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Also, wow; you really know your stuff man.

I mean, he is Famine.

 

[TenEightyOne]

A slight aside but I read this morning that this isn't the first time VW (or other companies) have done something like this. ArsTechnica.

 

[doblocruiser]

.....So the European Union knew of this since 2013

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/201...mission-europeenne-savait-depuis-deux-ans.php

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...concern-that-manufacturers-were-a6708656.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0d7ba40-6394-11e5-9846-de406ccb37f2.html#axzz3pf8moq00

 

[20832]

Today, Volkswagen is going to release quarterly financial statement, and people are obviously curious to see on how the scandal has affected the numvers.

Funnily enough though, Volkswagen is doing better than ever, and the orders of Diesel V Dubs have increased ever since the scandal has surfaced, according to internal sources. But these things should always be taken with a grain of salt, obviously.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Today, Volkswagen is going to release quarterly financial statement, and people are obviously curious to see on how the scandal has affected the numvers.

Funnily enough though, Volkswagen is doing better than ever, and the orders of Diesel V Dubs have increased ever since the scandal has surfaced, according to internal sources. But these things should always be taken with a grain of salt, obviously.

It's gone surprisingly well; they've posted a loss for this quarter which inevitably led to a share dip but then the shares have rallied showing that cheaper VW shares are just as attractive to investors as you might expect. I suspect that in the long term it'll be their North American business that'll suffer the most, these things being relative.

 

[Dennisch]

Instead of forcing VW to fix their cars the EU has decided to help them out a bit.

From 2017 onwards diesels are allowed to throw out more NOx than previously was established. It was 80 µg per kilometer, but starting in 2017 the norm goes up to 160 µg.

But! In 2021 it needs to drop back to 120 µg.

 

[MatskiMonk]

An extract from Automotive News: http://www.autonews.com/article/20151029/OEM/151029778/1221

"The number of people responsible will not be confined to a handful," the person said, declining to be identified because the matter is supposed to be confidential. "This should be a two-digit number in the range of between 10 and 20."

Europe's biggest carmaker admitted last month to violating diesel emissions tests in the United States, triggering a crisis that has wiped more than a quarter off its stock market value, forced out its long-time CEO and rocked both the global auto industry and German establishment.

VW's U.S. chief, Michael Horn, sparked criticism from some lawmakers earlier this month by saying he believed "a couple of software engineers" were responsible.

The number of people involved is a key issue for investors because it could affect the size of potential fines and the extent of management change at the company.

VW's internal investigation is currently focusing on as many as 40 employees involved in activities related to the manipulations, the person said.

"This includes a number of people who can be ruled out as perpetrators but who were witnesses," the person said. He did not say whether any of the individuals included board members.

VW declined to comment.

Prosecutors from Braunschweig, close to VW's home town of Wolfsburg, are investigating several people on initial suspicion of criminal offenses such as fraud or violation of competition rules, a spokesman said.

 

[homeforsummer]

Today, Volkswagen is going to release quarterly financial statement, and people are obviously curious to see on how the scandal has affected the numvers.

Funnily enough though, Volkswagen is doing better than ever, and the orders of Diesel V Dubs have increased ever since the scandal has surfaced, according to internal sources. But these things should always be taken with a grain of salt, obviously.

Indeed. I think it's a little early for financial results to really show the bigger picture. Not only has VW not yet started mass-recalling everything, it also hasn't started paying out any enormous fines it might be due. I also suspect that the news broke late enough in the third quarter that sales results won't really have made an impact.

Of course, the place they're most likely to suffer is in the US, where they aren't as much part of the furniture as they are in Europe and people were already suspicious of diesels. In Europe, diesel Golfs and the like will probably still sell in large numbers, because the default vehicle chosen by people who want a family car that won't cost them much to fuel is a diesel Golf.

Edit:

Well, this was only a matter of time. I'd consider myself fairly green-minded, but seriously, Greenpeace can sod off. I'm sure it's lovely in rainbow la-la land but they really don't have a clue about how businesses work.

 

[Dennisch]

Volkswagen has been naughty with their 3.0 v6 diesel as well, and it's found in the Volkswagen Touareg, Porsche Cayenne and the Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L, and Q5 from 2014-2016 model years.

Tssk tssk.

 

[IforceV8]

Link. http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf

 

[Dennisch]

Volkswagen themselves have been investigating their own cars, and they found even more problems. Now with their petrol power plants.

Oh oh.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Volkswagen themselves have been investigating their own cars, and they found even more problems. Now with their petrol power plants.

Oh oh.

Like their crappy failing thermostats and timing chain tensioners? One of which I just paid $500 to fix and cannot afford to do the other one so crossing my fingers it doesn't fail.

 

[Dennisch]

Like their crappy failing thermostats and timing chain tensioners? One of which I just paid $500 to fix and cannot afford to do the other one so crossing my fingers it doesn't fail.

Volkswagen being the pinnacle of reliability is long gone. That died when the last century died.

 

[Downhill Dino]

All this and my mother had just gotten a 2014 Passat TDI last year.

 

[Swagger897]

All this and my mother had just gotten a 2014 Passat TDI last year.

Tell here to let it warm up for fifteen minutes this winter before leaving in the mornings...


And send that to greenpuke..

 

[Dennisch]

Tell here to let it warm up for fifteen minutes this winter before leaving in the mornings...


And send that to greenpuke..

I once was tapped on the fingers by a copper for having my engine running when I was scraping the ice of my car.

Kindly told him to bugger off.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The more time passes, the more secrets are coming out. VW don't seem to have gotten to the bottom of anything and the lawsuits have started mounting. Until they know how many cars it is, and how much they will be fined, and all the lawsuits are filed, and the corrective actions are engineered and installed, VW have a MASSIVE sword of Damocles over them.

If the worst case scenario was an estimated 76,000,000,000 euros when it was 2litre diesels and under, what could it be with Porsche/Audi 3 litre diesels? And now perhaps petrol engines too?

I maintain that market reaction to this isn't going to be what causes the damage, but I'm so anxious to see how this affects the group.

 

[Swagger897]

The more time passes, the more secrets are coming out. VW don't seem to have gotten to the bottom of anything and the lawsuits have started mounting. Until they know how many cars it is, and how much they will be fined, and all the lawsuits are filed, and the corrective actions are engineered and installed, VW have a MASSIVE sword of Damocles over them.

If the worst case scenario was an estimated 76,000,000,000 euros when it was 2litre diesels and under, what could it be with Porsche/Audi 3 litre diesels? And now perhaps petrol engines too?

I maintain that market reaction to this isn't going to be what causes the damage, but I'm so anxious to see how this affects the group.

Same here...


And in other news... Look who got an avi.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Tell here to let it warm up for fifteen minutes this winter before leaving in the mornings...

Yeah she did last winter. Darn diesel warm up!

And send that to greenpuke..

What?

 

[Touring Mars]

VW may have underestimated the length and depth of the certain foul-smelling creek that they are currently attempting to navigate without a paddle.

 

[Dennisch]

Creek?

Sewer pipe.

 

[Robin]

Now even some petrol cars are affected.

Bankruptcy city for VW

 

[MatskiMonk]

"FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Investors wiped another 3 billion euros off Volkswagen Group's market value today after the automaker said it had understated the fuel consumption of some cars, opening a new front in a scandal that initially centered on rigging emissions tests.

VW said on Tuesday it had understated the fuel usage and CO2 emissions of up to 800,000 cars in Europe, meaning those vehicles affected are more costly to drive than their buyers had been led to believe.

The revelations added a new dimension to a crisis that had previously focused on harmful NOx emissions and are the first to threaten to make a serious dent in VW's car sales since the scandal erupted, analysts said."



edit:

So I understand the difference between the Cheat software VW used, and tests not being representative of the real world, but if they carried that methodology from NOx, to CO2, and fuel economy figures -- that's got to be a massive deal!?

What's really bugging me though, is if this kind or practice is so commonplace at VW, can it really be the case that they aren't all at it?

 

[Dennisch]

The Dutch IRS and DMV are working full throttle figuring out what the scandal means financially.

They also assured that if there is money to be paid because of the extra pollution, it will be VW that's going to bleed, and not the customers.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Ooh..

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/foreign/2015/11/04/volkswagen-stop-sale/75149606/

"Washington — Volkswagen of America said it has issued a stop-sale for more than 10,000 Audi, Porsche and VW SUVs and high-end cars with 3.0-liter diesel engines labeled by federal regulators as having "defeat devices" dating back to 2013.

The stop-sale includes more vehicles than identified by EPA on Monday, which only labeled the specific model years of three vehicles they had tested as violating emissions rules by allowing the vehicles to emit up to nine times legally allowable levels.

VW in Germany also has announced new problems with carbon dioxide emissions and miles per gallon ratings on 800,000 vehicles and said the costs of that issue could be $2.2 billion. VW stock fell 10 percent on the news Wednesday. It's not clear if any of those vehicles are in the United States, but U.S. VW officials don't believe so.

The new stop-sale covers the 2013 Audi Q7 TDI with generation II 3.0 liter V6, 2014 diesel A6, A7, A8, Q5 and Q7 certified pre-owned models on dealer lots and new diesel 2015-16 Audi A6, A7, A8, Q5 and Q7 vehicles. The stop-sale also covers certified pre-owned 2013-2014 diesel Touareg SUVs and new 2015-16 Touareg SUVs.

Porsche on Tuesday announced a similar stop-sale for 2014-16 Cayenne SUVs. The stop-sale impacts many of VW's most profitable vehicles in the United States, In 2013, the diesel Cayenne accounted for about 30 percent of U.S. Porsche Cayenne sales."

 

[homeforsummer]

What's really bugging me though, is if this kind or practice is so commonplace at VW, can it really be the case that they aren't all at it?

VW's problem is still that they deliberately cheated.

Everyone else has simply made cars that are designed to look good in fuel economy tests with no relevance to real-world usage.

So basically, everyone's car is less efficient and dirtier than the figure in the brochure suggests*, but only Volkswagen achieved their official numbers through cheating.

Perhaps a few other cheaters will be found, but I suspect if that were the case we'd already know about it, since everyone has been under scrutiny since the story originally broke.



* But that shouldn't be a surprise for anyone who hasn't been living under a rock - since cars have for a long time been less efficient in real-world use than they are on the European test, it's fairly straightforward to infer that they're missing out on official CO2, NOx, particulate etc etc etc targets too. If you're burning more fuel than claimed, then you're producing more pollutants too.