Emissions scandals thread

[Touring Mars]

VW's problem is still that they deliberately cheated.

Everyone else has simply made cars that are designed to look good in fuel economy tests with no relevance to real-world usage.

So basically, everyone's car is less efficient and dirtier than the figure in the brochure suggests*, but only Volkswagen achieved their official numbers through cheating.

I think the word cheating could easily apply to all manufacturers who have published misleading figures, but the key difference is whether or not they are breaking the law. VW clearly have broken the law, whereas other manufacturers are possibly guilty of misleading people (but within the law)... but, since CO2 emissions are linked with tax breaks/incentives etc., could it not yet turn out that car companies that publish deliberately misleading emissions figures could face penalties?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm looking forward to the press release on the 6 litre twin turbo V12 TDi.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think the word cheating could easily apply to all manufacturers who have published misleading figures, but the key difference is whether or not they are breaking the law. VW clearly have broken the law, whereas other manufacturers are possibly guilty of misleading people (but within the law)...

I don't think it can be considered cheating.

If you take a test with a question that says "What is 2+2? Hint: The answer is 5" and your answer of "5" is marked correct, you've simply played by the rules and come out with the desired answer - even if any sane person would have answered "4".

That's what the NEDC is. Manufacturers know the fabric of the test and build cars that can pass that test. They're being given the answer and getting it correct.

The public are coming out with the number 4 and wondering what the hell is going on. Justifiably so, but the manufacturers are not only not breaking the law, they're not actually doing anything wrong by designing their cars to work in a completely ridiculous system of measurement. They're required to design their cars to work in a completely ridiculous system of measurement. At least commercially, because doing anything else would kill sales.

since CO2 emissions are linked with tax breaks/incentives etc., could it not yet turn out that car companies that publish deliberately misleading emissions figures could face penalties?

If car manufacturers are publishing deliberately misleading figures, then yes. But they're not really doing that - they're being asked by the government to publish the figures they attain in a test that has no bearing on real-world driving.

If a manufacturer decided to publish only figures attained in real-world driving conditions, they'd not only be shooting themselves in the foot commercially, but breaking the law too - because the figures a car is actually capable of in the hands of regular drivers aren't the figures the EU requires companies to publish.

There are two separate problems here:

1. VW needs to stop cheating to hit nonsensical targets.
2. Nonsensical targets need to not exist in the first place.

 

[MatskiMonk]

VW's problem is still that they deliberately cheated.

.....

So basically, everyone's car is less efficient and dirtier than the figure in the brochure suggests*, but only Volkswagen achieved their official numbers through cheating

As I say, I understand the difference between what VW are found out to have done, and how real world figures may differ from test results for all manufacturers...

My point is VW were doing this for a long while before they were properly found out.

Consider; They used a defeat device that could be hidden in a number of ways. At various levels "they" took the decision that this was a worthwhile risk - in spite of the massive resources at their disposal. They have to meet the same targets as the other manufacturers, whilst probably hiring and firing from within the industry.

Is it so safe to assume that all the rest didn't arrive at the same conclusion, and simply haven't been found out yet?

Edited because of fat thumbs and premature posting disorder!

 

[Clark]

Really tempted to now to buy some VW shares.

 

[catamount39]

Really tempted to now to buy some VW shares.

Not yet.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Really tempted to now to buy some VW shares.

Wait till the fines and lawsuits hit. They'll drop again, but they'll be cheap for a reason...

 

[ImmalovemaGTR]

Sorry if I just pop into this discussion, but I may be present at a presentation of the new W12 TSI engine next week. Since the petrol cars here in Europe are also affected, this may be very interesting. I'll keep you covered if I can get some information from there.

 

[VXR]

This had all gone a bit flat, but this latest news has added some more flames to the fire.

 

[homeforsummer]

Is it so safe to assume that all the rest didn't arrive at the same conclusion, and simply haven't been found out yet?

It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't say it's probable. Automakers are clever, but I think VW is a bit of a special case. The reason this was found out in the first place was because VW was making a song and dance about how it didn't need to use AdBlue (urea injection) to meet US emissions targets.

Why is that telling? Well for a start, in Europe the jump from Euro 5 to Euro 6 has meant VW has invested in making its diesels use AdBlue anyway - a friend has recently bought a 2.0 TDI Passat that uses it.

It's also telling because Mazda has been saying it'll enter the US market for the past three or four years, with the new Mazda 6 (another non-AdBlue engine), yet still hasn't done so - my bet is Mazda couldn't figure out a way of allowing it to pass emissions regs with the current hardware. Mercedes-Benz, who is in the US with diesel engines, did so only after adopting AdBlue across its range.

Essentially, other manufacturers have made very clear business decisions to enter the notoriously emissions-stringent US market based on the technology they could apply. VW entered with a seemingly rudimentary method and miraculously passed regulations... until everything was found out.

On a separate note, Bob Lutz's piece on R&T about this being the result of Piech's 'reign of terror' at VW is interesting. And quite feasible.

 

[ImmalovemaGTR]

It's also telling because Mazda has been saying it'll enter the US market for the past three or four years, with the new Mazda 6 (another non-AdBlue engine), yet still hasn't done so - my bet is Mazda couldn't figure out a way of allowing it to pass emissions regs with the current hardware.

Don't forget that Mazda has a little bit different engine concept with an extremely low compression ratio (14:1). This also affects emissions, especially nitrous oxyde emissions. So that's a bit of a special case.

However, it's basacally true what you are saying IMO. The problem is that there are very tight regulations concerning Diesel emissions, and Diesel engines just can't be as environmently friendly. If you ask me, we need a revolution for saving electricity in electric vehicles.

 

[Anthony]

Essentially, other manufacturers have made very clear business decisions to enter the notoriously emissions-stringent US market based on the technology they could apply. VW entered with a seemingly rudimentary method and miraculously passed regulations... until everything was found out.

This does make you wonder, how come someone like Mercedes-Benz didn't pay off an "independent firm" to conduct research on the TDI engines to see how they were passing those emission tests? Was the risk of being accused of industrial espionage too high or is there another reason why the truth took so long to come out despite all the warning signs?

 

[Sanji Himura]

This does make you wonder, how come someone like Mercedes-Benz didn't pay off an "independent firm" to conduct research on the TDI engines to see how they were passing those emission tests? Was the risk of being accused of industrial espionage too high or is there another reason why the truth took so long to come out despite all the warning signs?

That's my question as well. I've been involved with market research, so some of this will certainly apply, but generally when I get involved in taste tests (generally takes up 30-45 minutes of my time), I get asked several "qualifying questions" from two different sources to even see if I am eligible for taste testing. And the whole taste test is usually organized by a company (Usually the manufacturers of a new product that would be put on the shelves).

If the "independent firm" really did this research on behalf of Mercedes, then Mercedes could get in a lot of trouble for that.

 

[homeforsummer]

This does make you wonder, how come someone like Mercedes-Benz didn't pay off an "independent firm" to conduct research on the TDI engines to see how they were passing those emission tests? Was the risk of being accused of industrial espionage too high or is there another reason why the truth took so long to come out despite all the warning signs?

My suspicion is that Mercedes pulled apart a VW TDI engine long ago, and discovered that in real-world testing it produced higher-than-quoted emissions.

But would any car manufacturer draw attention to that? First of all, Mercedes would know that its own engines would be over prescribed limits on the road - just like everybody else's diesels are. Saying "hey, that VW engine seems a bit suspicious" draws needless attention to your own products, even if you aren't explicitly using a cheat device.

Secondly, drawing attention to diesel engines as a whole would - as we're now finding out - bring about a tightening of already stringent emissions regulations that would affect the industry as a whole. There wouldn't be a crackdown on just VW's diesels, there'd be a market-wide crackdown.

All that considered, I imagine most carmakers aren't best pleased at Volkswagen. Producing engines that don't meet required figures in the real world is one thing. Deliberately finding a way to fudge figures with software is quite another, and it's going to make things very tough for companies like Merc. For a start, while the US market is a relatively small one for diesel vehicles, it could kill off diesel entirely in the US - just as Daimler has spent a huge amount of money ensuring its vehicles are compliant there.

 

[kikie]

It's been mentioned before (the share buying part) but I think I'm going to buy some VW share and buy a VW with the profit I make.

 

[Robin]

Really tempted to now to buy some VW shares.

If you wait long enough you won't just be buying shares, you might be buying the whole company

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'm hoping BMW (or SKion) can buy up VW's stake in SGL Carbon fibre.

Really though, if the market isn't going to hang VW (stop-sale orders aside), how do the other manufacturers capitalise on this situation? If VW's competition also have to take a hit on the image of diesel, and their share prices too... they should really be looking for a way to stick the knife into Wolfsburg.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Really tempted to now to buy some VW shares.

Do it, they're strong... they've rallied on every hit they've taken. There's huge value in their brand portfolio and if you're in long-game investment they're a no-brainer.

Really though, if the market isn't going to hang VW (stop-sale orders aside), how do the other manufacturers capitalise on this situation? If VW's competition also have to take a hit on the image of diesel, and their share prices too... they should really be looking for a way to stick the knife into Wolfsburg.

They capitalise with straight-up, amusing advertising that tells it like it is (rather like some of VWs famous campaigns over the years). Of course, they have to back up any whiter-than-white claims with truth.

VW have now admitted that petrol engines are also involved, I doubt that'll do much more damage to the brands already in the spotlight (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda). "Fortunately" the brands now drawn into the mix (Porsche and Lamborghini) don't traditionally have the most ecologically-sound customer base (some Cayenne snobs aside) so I think they'll ride this out in 6 months. Buy buy buy

 

[catamount39]

If you wait long enough you won't just be buying shares, you might be buying the whole company

Hmmm...this idea pleases me...*evil laugh*

 

[homeforsummer]

how do the other manufacturers capitalise on this situation?

The obvious one for me is for any company that sells hybrid vehicles to push those like crazy. I mean, not that Toyota needs much help shifting hybrids, for one, but now is the time more than ever to push the low-emissions angle of them.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Tesla will probably shine pretty brightly in the face of this debacle as well.

 

[Dennisch]

American VW owners might receive a gift from VW.
A credit card with $500 on it and a coupon for $500 worth of service at the dealers.

 

[catamount39]

American VW owners might receive a gift from VW.
A credit card with $500 on it and a coupon for $500 worth of service at the dealers.

So...$1,000 total? Eh, not bad. Should be more though.

 

[homeforsummer]

Tesla will probably shine pretty brightly in the face of this debacle as well.

Probably, though judging by recent reports Tesla needs to work on its quality somewhat if it's to maintain the momentum it's had for the last few years. It also needs the Model 3 in the relatively near future if it's to get a decent foothold in the less expensive, circa-200-mile range electric car market, since the Chevy Bolt (or whatever they're calling it) and the next-gen Nissan Leaf are likely to hit the right price/range targets.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

So another "small" fine for VW in Brazil for the 17000 VW Amarok's sold over there. How long will it take for this to be sorted world wide?



http://www.wsj.com/articles/brazil-fines-volkswagen-13-million-over-emissions-cheating-1447350065

 

[niky]

Is it so safe to assume that all the rest didn't arrive at the same conclusion, and simply haven't been found out yet?

Days late, and @homeforsummer already answered this, but I think the fact that Mazda has not been able to solve the US Diesel equation over the past few years, despite having some of the most radical diesel architecture in the world, should have been a red flag in regards to the VW situation.

I'm pretty sure the majors dissect each others' systems all the time, though specific powertrain tricks will be covered by patents that would make copying them outright all but impossible. It's likely nobody would ever have found the defeat software unless they were specifically looking for it. My guess is that any testing done would simply have been on the same rolling road loops that the EPA uses.

What I find truly bizarre is that the 'cheat software' is so test-specific that it is programmed to turn itself off exactly one second after the test finishes. (on page four)

Which means if a single tester had just kept going a minute too long... or had done something out of spec, the jig would have been well and truly up.

Boggles the mind.

 

[Dennisch]

Certain folks in Brussel have known about VW's cheating for 4 years.

German magazine Wirtschaftswoche has documents claiming that. Out of frustration for the lack of action from Brussel, officials sent the information to the USA, and that brought us where we are now.

 

[Tornado]

So kinda like that FIFA thing

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's now been established that VW cars also use the "cheat"software to beat the EU emissions test. When running within the letter of the test parameters a Passat BlueMotion output 167 mg/km of NOx, within the 180 mg/km limit. In a "hot" test that rose to 435 mg/km NOx. Oh dear. BBC.

 

[VXR]

There we go, the real kicker in this scandal. Cheating in Pro-Diesel Europe.