Engine Swap / Drivetrain Swap

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

Tenacious thx right
CoolColJ thats what i wanted to say

one member said gt will not be a arcade game because the physiks will not change its ok to swap engine/drivetrain/...
but the problem is (read the Brabus example) if you put a new engine in it than you have to change drivetrain/gearbox/brakes/everything else too...
example:if you have 2 honda s2000 in gt5 ,1 without swaped parts and the other with a 3lengine,than its not real if both cars has the same physiks because the 2nd car has more power and the 2nd car is heavier then the first ,that means that you have to get other physiks like in corners more understeer or anything like this ...

that means that PD have to test all cars with a different engine/drivetrain/.....
i think it would take more than 15years
we will have more than 1000cars,one of them will be the honda s2000 ,than PD have to test the car several times with 2.1l 2.2 l ...6.5l...engines and with different drivetrains different brakes...
and this with 1000cars lol impossible

 

[Aloha62_2]

if you put a new engine in it than you have to change drivetrain/gearbox/brakes/everything else too...

Why would you have to change the drivetrain?

if your replacing a I4 engine with another I4 lump theres absolutely no need.


Why would you need to replace the gearbox?

Most engine swaps keep the original box and use an adaptor plate to fit them, and if you do change the box then thats nothing for the GT series which simply has a generic short/sports/race fictional upgrade option anyway.

why would you need to change the brakes?

lager brakes are needed for higher speeds yes but massively increasing speed to the edges of realism has always been part of GT and so far its all been covered by the painfully barely detailed 'upgrade brakes' option.


There isnt that much which has to be changed for a engine swap, nowhere near as much as many think.

 

[Imari]

Not to mention that if they do it well, then it would be quite acceptable for an extreme engine swap to make the car near-undrivable until other parts had also been upgraded. It's not dissimilar to sticking a stage 4 turbo and nothing else on a car. Yeah, it's fast, but it's a pig to drive.

 

[analog]

Not to mention that if they do it well, then it would be quite acceptable for an extreme engine swap to make the car near-undrivable until other parts had also been upgraded. It's not dissimilar to sticking a stage 4 turbo and nothing else on a car. Yeah, it's fast, but it's a pig to drive.

Exactly, physics will remain the same and you will need to upgrade the rest of the car in the same way you would when bolting on a stage 4 turbo or supercharger.

Maybe it's ( if indeed it is an option ) just 2 or 3 different engine choices on the more "common" cars in the tuning-shop not a free for all engine swap leading to all sorts of dubious hybrids many people fear.
Probably all from the same manufacturer ( perhaps only replacing a inline 4 with a V6 or a V6 with a V8, etc. ) if included at all.
Agree with people opposing that the drivetrain ( or at least the drivetrain spec, FF, FR, MR, etc. ) should probably remain the same.

Come on people, if it will be an option it would be done sensible according to PD's standards as bolting a stage 4 turbo on most cars will just as much change the character of that car than replacing the engine with one from a model slightly higher up in that brand's model-range.
It's not that far out as some make it out to be, and it definitely makes some sense when it is within a limited context as I've just described.

Example using Honda; you could put a Civic Type R engine into a Beat and a S2000 engine into a Civic, but for the S2000 and NSX this option would not exist in the same way that you couldn't turbocharge a standard NSX, etc.

 

[emponator]

Some people here seems to think that the physics engine is handmade for every single car and every single tuning part combinations individually. =D

Each car just has a set of variables (weight, power, driven wheels, tire grip and a ton more), and parts just alter these variables in some direction, so the physics engine can calculate the correct handling for the car.

A engine swap would just change the engine characteristics like power and torqueband, + weight and thus the weight distribution too.

 

[nasanu]

What made Gran Turismo special in the first place was that it was as close to real as we could get. Every game had supercars or futuristic racers, but only Gran Turismo had the car you borrowed from your dad.

Cars with drive train swaps are mostly made up. Science fiction. It may technically be possible to do drive train swaps, but certainly not with off the shelf manufacturer or tuner parts. Gran Turismo is not about made up cars, never has been. It is about enjoying the beauty of production cars and occasionally indulging in race or tuner cars.

If it is real then Gran Turismo should include it. If it is not then it should not. Can you go out right now and buy everything you need to make an AWD 600HP Honda Ingetra? No. It would require all sorts of custom parts if it could even be done at all. Drive train swaps or engine swaps that are not a simple bolt in job have no place in Gran Turismo.

 

[JM1681]

While I'm more concerned with engine swaps (K20 motor and trans in an EG6 FTW ), I think "reasonable" drivetrain swaps should be allowed as they DO happen in real world tuning.

I've seen a Del Sol with a turbo Type-R motor in the trunk, I've seen more twin-engined cars than I can remember, and I've seen quite a few FWD cars converted to RWD. Even if it seems unlikely, where there's a will, there's a way...

AWD conversions happen, but out of all I've seen, they are the least common as they are the most expensive.

I'm just saying, things of this nature, they are a part of car culture and have been for years. Saying they have no business in a game that is supposed to embrace all aspects of car culture is pretty obtuse IMHO.

 

[chepu]

What made Gran Turismo special in the first place was that it was as close to real as we could get. Every game had supercars or futuristic racers, but only Gran Turismo had the car you borrowed from your dad.

Cars with drive train swaps are mostly made up. Science fiction. It may technically be possible to do drive train swaps, but certainly not with off the shelf manufacturer or tuner parts. Gran Turismo is not about made up cars, never has been. It is about enjoying the beauty of production cars and occasionally indulging in race or tuner cars.

If it is real then Gran Turismo should include it. If it is not then it should not. Can you go out right now and buy everything you need to make an AWD 600HP Honda Ingetra? No. It would require all sorts of custom parts if it could even be done at all. Drive train swaps or engine swaps that are not a simple bolt in job have no place in Gran Turismo.

Maybe Not, but you can go and buy all parts to swap another honda engine in an Integra, also in japan you could Go and buy every parts needed to put an Rb26 into alot of cars, even Kits to put a 2JZ into your Silvia, OH! and what about the GM LSx Engines, there are lots of complete kits to install them into a Mx-5 Miata

therefore its real, and what Like I wrote before, the only thing the game shouldnt have is Drivetrain conversions, they are a Hard, Expensive, Risky and take too much time IRL, also it can destroy the balance of your car; but Egine swaps? some can be done in a week or less. 👍

 

[Dan_]

Well the Ginetta, being a kitcar most of the time, has always had different types of engines by different manufacturers ( although mostly Ford ) and although I really love that car the engine isn't the defining aspect of the G4 ( probably debatable, but I'd reckon it isn't like the Boxer-6 of a 911 for instance ).

Not the best example there mate the g4 and g20 have run with whole hosts of different engines, i have seen two g4's one had a austin a-series 1.1 twin carb and the other a much newer 98 ford zetec 16v. i believe pinto engines were pretty common too.

Indeed, the Ginetta wasn't the best example , but whatsoever were the different engines the Ginetta used, they were planned for use by the manufacturer, then the car has factory default specs. My point stands on the fact that original characteristics of the car should be preserved, the Audi R8 V10 uses a Lamborghini engine, however it was deployed from the factory with that engine, then it's the Audi R8 engine no matter who built it. And that was my whole point. I stumbled in my own words while typing.

 

[JM1681]

Can you go out right now and buy everything you need to make an AWD 600HP Honda Ingetra?

Honestly, I don't quite know the validity of that statement.

Transverse AWD Hondas do exist, and who the hell says you need all stock Honda parts? Do you really think that out of all the AWD cars that exist in this world, you can't source enough OEM parts to put the AWD system together with slim-to-no fabrication?

As for power, well if you're just challenging me to put an AWD 600hp Integra together, F-the internals and tuning; give me a big enough turbo, a massive set of injectors, and big enough fuel pump to work with all the boost it'll take, and yeah, I bet I can make a 600hp AWD Integra with over the counter parts.

 

[Aloha62_2]

If it is real then Gran Turismo should include it. .

thank you, its about time someone agreed with me that engine swaps should be in, they are real and therefore have a place in GT.

 

[TuneR-]

Swaps are most welcome IF they are done correctly and in reasonable manner!

 

[SavageEvil]

Swaps would probably only be allowed if the manufacturer says it can be done to their IP, and to the lengths that is actually possible. So I doubt that they would include tossing an GM LS.x engine into any other car other than another GM vehicle. May happen in RL, but is a no go in a liscenced game. FF to AWD is a common drive train swap, but a FR to AWD isn't, it's not impossible, but the car was not built with AWD in mind. That said there are Dodge Chargers that do come in AWD flavor from the factory, just putting it out there. I do not think that these models can hold the bigger Hemi engines though as the extra components for AWD system take up some real estate in the Engine Bay, well under it. Drive train swaps can be in, but they must be handled very meticulously. I don't think that a AWD Viper sporting a V10 is actually feasible, you'd have to move the engine forward and possibly raise it to get the AWD system in there. There goes that car's balance, braking distance just went out the window, cornering balance takes a serious hit and the car is even more front heavy than before. I'd keep it limited to what manufacturers say is actually possible with their cars and not go wild like FM3 has.

 

[Rob192005]

Engine swaps for me would be cool,like having an R35 engined S15 Silvia or something would be fun.

 

[nasanu]

thank you, its about time someone agreed with me that engine swaps should be in, they are real and therefore have a place in GT.

Yes if they are commonly done then its fine. Like all the silvas running around with skyline engines etc. But nothing that you have to make major modifications to get working should be allowed. Technically you can build just about anything and simply because it can be done does not mean it should be in the game. You can post examples all day of twin engine cars, mini's with V8 engines etc. But there are also cars that have been converted into boats and planes. I guess GT should have them too? NO.

 

[Brainhulk]

Maybe Kaz can enable it, but make it really hard to get (%100 game and gold on all tests)
Or buying a special VIP version.

But it's pretty cool alot of people want this feature enabled!

 

[Roushman90]

Engine swaps should be implemented in GT5. Since PD would logically HAVE to draw a line at where these transplants start and stop I would suggest only implementing swap options that have at least been done, and for the most part common.

Examples:

With the 240sx, or any older Z chassis:
RB26DETT (Skyline)
SR20DET (Stock 180sx powerplant)
LS1 (This is actually a pretty bang for you're buck common swap now)
or the 5.0 HO v8 out of a Foxbody Mustang

Rx-7: (V8 swaps seem popular for FC/FDs lately)
302 V8

Older Hondas:
K series swap is viable

etc, I think you get my point...

But anyways, for the sake of practicality, PD would (if they allowed swaps) HAVE to stray away from ridiculous swaps that take lots of CUSTOM work to make plausible.

 

[Cimanu]

Definetly yes. This would fit easily.

People will obviously try and put massive engines into tiny cars. However tiny cars are not built for that power so would drive horribly and would gain no advantage.

There will also be no problem of entering a one make race with a different engine as if I make an assumption on what we've seen, the game will use the performance point grouping system.

 

[nasanu]

Definetly yes. This would fit easily.

People will obviously try and put massive engines into tiny cars. However tiny cars are not built for that power so would drive horribly and would gain no advantage.

There will also be no problem of entering a one make race with a different engine as if I make an assumption on what we've seen, the game will use the performance point grouping system.

Forza used points. Yet cars with appalling handling and monster engines were the only way to win.

 

[Cimanu]

Forza used points. Yet cars with appalling handling and monster engines were the only way to win.

mm, I generally don't like using Forza to base how something will be in GT5 as the two games are very different.

 

[Imari]

Engine swaps should be implemented in GT5. Since PD would logically HAVE to draw a line at where these transplants start and stop I would suggest only implementing swap options that have at least been done, and for the most part common.

Examples:

With the 240sx, or any older Z chassis:
RB26DETT (Skyline)
SR20DET (Stock 180sx powerplant)
LS1 (This is actually a pretty bang for you're buck common swap now)
or the 5.0 HO v8 out of a Foxbody Mustang

Rx-7: (V8 swaps seem popular for FC/FDs lately)
302 V8

Older Hondas:
K series swap is viable

etc, I think you get my point...

But anyways, for the sake of practicality, PD would (if they allowed swaps) HAVE to stray away from ridiculous swaps that take lots of CUSTOM work to make plausible.

I think for the sake of balance this would have to be the way to do it. Make 3-5 engine choices for each car, make sure they're not horrendously unbalanced in points ratings and call it a day. People get options and are happy, game balance is maintained.

Doesn't seem like something that would be technically very difficult, it's not substantially different from other upgrades in any way but name.

 

[Aloha62_2]

I dont see why artificial performance limitations or the horrific performance points system would be needed.

More power and a thirstier engine should bring its own problems naturally through the game engine while at the same time you should be able to fit a smaller more modern/economical engine into a car and enjoy any benefits that that would bring.


Say replacing a old 4.0 cast iron lump with a newer 2.0 ali lump, the car will be no more powerful but should be much lighter and better on tyres/fuel.

And if the performance points thing does end up in gt5 then this is purely academical as the hell am i buying anything with such a stupid system.

 

[Spagetti69]

Power to weight ratio suggests that although the power is the same the lack of weight makes it more powerful than before. If you follow what I mean.

Edit sorry I just re read your post and noticed the 2. Litre 4. Litre quote.

 

[Imari]

I dont see why artificial performance limitations or the horrific performance points system would be needed.

More power and a thirstier engine should bring its own problems naturally through the game engine while at the same time you should be able to fit a smaller more modern/economical engine into a car and enjoy any benefits that that would bring.


Say replacing a old 4.0 cast iron lump with a newer 2.0 ali lump, the car will be no more powerful but should be much lighter and better on tyres/fuel.

And if the performance points thing does end up in gt5 then this is purely academical as the hell am i buying anything with such a stupid system.

Well, clearly there needs to be some sort of restriction system in place or all races will be F1 2007 vs. Citroen GT. The PP system isn't perfect, but with tweaked numbers I think it can achieve it's job quite well. Remember that PD can tweak numbers after the game goes live if cars start proving dominant, that wouldn't mess with leaderboards at all if they're set up in the same way as Prologue.

 

[Aloha62_2]

Well, clearly there needs to be some sort of restriction system in place or all races will be F1 2007 vs. Citroen GT. The PP system isn't perfect, but with tweaked numbers I think it can achieve it's job quite well. Remember that PD can tweak numbers after the game goes live if cars start proving dominant, that wouldn't mess with leaderboards at all if they're set up in the same way as Prologue.

I dont want to head far off topic but i found nothing wrong in the system employed by past GT's, have set rules and allow the player to choose the challenge he wants although this would be better served if the A-spec points sytem gave greater reward.

As for the system used online, i dont know, i dont play and have no plans on playing online, GT to me has always been based on GT mode and car-set up / tuning.

 

[chepu]

Definetly yes. This would fit easily.

People will obviously try and put massive engines into tiny cars. However tiny cars are not built for that power so would drive horribly and would gain no advantage.

There will also be no problem of entering a one make race with a different engine as if I make an assumption on what we've seen, the game will use the performance point grouping system.

The only way I see putting heavier, bigger engines in small tiny cars is for a top speed or drag racing setup, which doesnt sounds so bad, but keeping them real, just no Bugatti W16 in a Vw Bug .

something plausible might be, For example, an AE86 with a Lexus V8, in time attack, circuit racing it might be useless, but for drag racing or top speed races a V8+Turbo cant just get better.

 

[Cimanu]

The only way I see putting heavier, bigger engines in small tiny cars is for a top speed or drag racing setup, which doesnt sounds so bad, but keeping them real, just no Bugatti W16 in a Vw Bug .

something plausible might be, For example, an AE86 with a Lexus V8, in time attack, circuit racing it might be useless, but for drag racing or top speed races a V8+Turbo cant just get better.

yes that'll work. With online drag people will be caught out by 'sleepers' (Cars that look weak but actually run big power).
I just meant that generally small cars have small wheels. Small wheels and big power mean lots of wheelspin and hard to control.

 

[eSZee]

yes that'll work. With online drag people will be caught out by 'sleepers' (Cars that look weak but actually run big power).
I just meant that generally small cars have small wheels. Small wheels and big power mean lots of wheelspin and hard to control.

On the streets it happens because you can't look under the hood. In online races I assume that power and weight will be given in the lobby.
As for small wheels and big power, I was following a FB RX7 yesterday that was running 13" wide tires in the rear. It had tubs cut out for them and had a SB V8 out front. The thing spun the wheels shifting at part throttle.

 

[Griffith500]

The only way I see putting heavier, bigger engines in small tiny cars is for a top speed or drag racing setup, which doesnt sounds so bad, but keeping them real, just no Bugatti W16 in a Vw Bug .

something plausible might be, For example, an AE86 with a Lexus V8, in time attack, circuit racing it might be useless, but for drag racing or top speed races a V8+Turbo cant just get better.

Not to mention those UZs sound amazing!

But yes, hopefully the system should "balance itself", in that dropping a V6 lump in the front of a civic will turn it into somewhat of a snowplow-cum-mobile smoke machine type deal thingymahoojimaflopsit...

I read just today of a swap involving a Renault 5 GT Turbo - it received a Mégane 225 engine

 

[chepu]

On the streets it happens because you can't look under the hood. In online races I assume that power and weight will be given in the lobby.
As for small wheels and big power, I was following a FB RX7 yesterday that was running 13" wide tires in the rear. It had tubs cut out for them and had a SB V8 out front. The thing spun the wheels shifting at part throttle.

Thats the surprise of the engine swap, you Can easily Achieve 500Hp from a 4A-ge, but with turbo lag, torque and all that stuff it might not be as fast as a V8 one with 550 Hp, but lots of more low end torque.

so the game says, yeah it has 300 Hp and most people will think of a supercharged 4age when it actually has a V8 with more than 300 lbs.ft of torque.👍