mister dog
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Europe - The Official Thread
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mister dog
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Brilliant speech. 👍
Faintly ridiculous, however, that somebody still needs to say this to Tsipras today.
Faintly ridiculous, however, that somebody still needs to say this to Tsipras today.
Ibonibo
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While I am not on the Tsipras side it's not the Greeks fault alone
They signed a military contract in the crisis, pushed through by the EU and the US. Deal was made with the US. And they can not back out as it's the mandatory investment in defense required from the NATO.
They had pre €, an interest rate of 25% on the money they lend, upon entering the €, it sunk to around 5%.
Still no taxation on the wealty 100 Greeks, some of them have relations into high EU ranks (richest Greek had Barosso over for an holiday on his yacht in 2008
👎).
One of the Islands (rodos, or one of those well known) had a huge business with solar power (hundred of millions in revenue), cutting down fossil fuels consumptions on the island. The monarch of the island was also the importer of the oils for that island. So bizarrely all state aids were cut suddenly, rendering the whole business unprofitable compared to oil (fractions of employement rate, innovations,....)
But Greece also has it's fair share, on these low interest rates, state salaries rose, pensions go up,.... no investments made....
I said it on page 1, not elaborate enough, but if we would have kicked Greece out of the € in 2008 or at least in 2010-11, they could have built with the help of the EU, ECB,... a transfer monatary union, thus playing with deflation over a new currency.
And the invested 2 billions could have been used more sharply with subventions for pharmaceuticals, state tax reformation, privatisation of state business....
What could all have been done with 2 Billions.... now nobody knows where they are. Vapourware taken by banks and the wealthiest of the Greeks while all the others have no money for meds, food,...
Still am for an Exit of Greece. More saving from the Greeks, more loan from uswill rectify nothing. It will all go the same way as the years before...down the drain
We should accept the lost money, get them out of the Euro and help them out with goods and knowledge instead of just pouring money in....
They signed a military contract in the crisis, pushed through by the EU and the US. Deal was made with the US. And they can not back out as it's the mandatory investment in defense required from the NATO.
They had pre €, an interest rate of 25% on the money they lend, upon entering the €, it sunk to around 5%.
Still no taxation on the wealty 100 Greeks, some of them have relations into high EU ranks (richest Greek had Barosso over for an holiday on his yacht in 2008
👎).One of the Islands (rodos, or one of those well known) had a huge business with solar power (hundred of millions in revenue), cutting down fossil fuels consumptions on the island. The monarch of the island was also the importer of the oils for that island. So bizarrely all state aids were cut suddenly, rendering the whole business unprofitable compared to oil (fractions of employement rate, innovations,....)
But Greece also has it's fair share, on these low interest rates, state salaries rose, pensions go up,.... no investments made....
I said it on page 1, not elaborate enough, but if we would have kicked Greece out of the € in 2008 or at least in 2010-11, they could have built with the help of the EU, ECB,... a transfer monatary union, thus playing with deflation over a new currency.
And the invested 2 billions could have been used more sharply with subventions for pharmaceuticals, state tax reformation, privatisation of state business....
What could all have been done with 2 Billions.... now nobody knows where they are. Vapourware taken by banks and the wealthiest of the Greeks while all the others have no money for meds, food,...
Still am for an Exit of Greece. More saving from the Greeks, more loan from uswill rectify nothing. It will all go the same way as the years before...down the drain
We should accept the lost money, get them out of the Euro and help them out with goods and knowledge instead of just pouring money in....
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- 297
- Aldebaran
- rudolphcarter
At first ,European banks loaned Greek banks.
Then Greek banks lost the loaned money and many of the Greek people money in failed investments.
European banks in danger of losing their money,(in association with Greek government) transfered the Greek banks debt, to the European citizens.(Germany,France,Italy etc).Those countries and particularly Germany, took loans with very low interest and then give loans to Greece with high interest.(that equals profit).
Then Greece was taken more and more loans from every organisation they could find to save it's economy.
BUT...90% of these loans, have been given to the Greek banks so that they could payback the European banks and never made it to the public.
If all this money were given to us,
I'm telling you for sure i would be really wealthy.
Then Greek banks lost the loaned money and many of the Greek people money in failed investments.
European banks in danger of losing their money,(in association with Greek government) transfered the Greek banks debt, to the European citizens.(Germany,France,Italy etc).Those countries and particularly Germany, took loans with very low interest and then give loans to Greece with high interest.(that equals profit).
Then Greece was taken more and more loans from every organisation they could find to save it's economy.
BUT...90% of these loans, have been given to the Greek banks so that they could payback the European banks and never made it to the public.
If all this money were given to us,
I'm telling you for sure i would be really wealthy.
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Dotini
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Some folks are still working their way through denial and anger to the final phase of acceptance. It hurts, yes, but we're here beside you to help you through your hour of pain and suffering.
Obama has flat told Merkel to keep Greece in the EU and oh, while you're at it, cut their debt.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/obama-calls-merkel-reinforces-imf-case-debt-haircut
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150707/1024328229.html
This means Germans will pay through the nose,
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/europe-revolts-what-happening-now-defeat-germany
...or else Greece falls to Russia and China.
http://tass.ru/en/world/806684
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That all appears based on the assumption that exiting the Eurozone equates to leaving the EU... it doesn't.
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Maybe President Obama should be more concerned about cutting his own national debt rather than telling others that they need to let their debtors off the hook - you can't get blood from a stone but the EU are treading a fine line between giving Greece as much help as they can but without setting a dangerous precedent of debt forgiveness that could ruin the entire Eurozone.
Dotini
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Greece spends a greater percentage of its GDP on its military budget than any nation in NATO except for the US itself.
Greece holds a strategic corner position with respect to the Balkans, Syria, Turkey and migrants. It is the "soft underbelly of Europe".
If you force Greece to walk the plank, away from the EU, away from NATO and into the drooling embrace of Russia, you will know a fury and an anger from the US such that you...
Greece holds a strategic corner position with respect to the Balkans, Syria, Turkey and migrants. It is the "soft underbelly of Europe".
If you force Greece to walk the plank, away from the EU, away from NATO and into the drooling embrace of Russia, you will know a fury and an anger from the US such that you...
...will be forced to cover the ears of your children!
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
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Greece have all but folded and will agree to harsh new austerity measures in return for a third massive EU bailout with some additional debt relief.
http://www.theguardian.com/business...accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears
http://www.theguardian.com/business...accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears
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So much for listening to your people.
Edit.
Something odd is happening in the world of financial news as our news sites just state that the New Greek plans are just now being sent to Dijsselbloem and his financial buddies. No word on the Greeks capitulation.
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Well at least 38.69% of Greece will be happy.
mister dog
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Indeed, that and sadly also because of those attacks on tourists in countries like Tunesia. De één zijn brood...
We should wait until the tourists' evacuation is complete, there are many still there this evening. Then maybe count our loaves.
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As usual, there are conflicting reports but it does seem like a deal will be reached, with Greece basically yielding on all major fronts - with the EU probably agreeing to some sort of debt relief in return.
There are more specific details here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...sterity-measures-to-stay-in-the-eurozone.html
It is still not done and dusted though - Syriza MPs (and thus a majority of the Greek people) will probably be apopletic (is that a Greek word?) and there may be serious repercussions for Tsipras and Syriza in general... but let's face it, this was always going to be the case when they promised the impossible and basically have no choice but to do the opposite of what they said they would do. In addition, the Greek proposals - if real - may still not be enough for some people; it is also very possible that the Greeks will sign up to the deal and then fail to implement much (or any) of it, and we'll simply be in this scenario again next summer.... I reckon that is very likely.
Dotini
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She Blinks!
Greek deal in sight as Germany bows to huge global pressure for debt relief
Angela Merkel faces a defining moment in her political career as chorus of voices push for Greek debt relief.
Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday’s last-ditch summit.
In a highly significant move, the European Council has called on both sides to make major concessions, insisting that the creditor powers must do their part as the radical Syriza government puts forward a new raft of proposals on economic reforms before a deadline expires tonight.
This is the first time Europe's institutions have acknowledged clearly that Greece’s public debt – 180pc of GDP – can never be repaid and that no lasting solution can be found until the boil is lanced.
Any such deal would give Greek premier Alexis Tspiras a prize to take back to the Greek people after they voted by 61pc to 39pc to reject austerity demands in a landslide referendum last weekend.
While he would still have to deliver on tough reforms and breach key red lines, a debt restructuring of sufficient scale would probably be enough to clinch a deal, and allow him to return to Athens as a conquering hero.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html
Greek deal in sight as Germany bows to huge global pressure for debt relief
Angela Merkel faces a defining moment in her political career as chorus of voices push for Greek debt relief.
Germany is at last bowing to pressure as a chorus of countries and key institutions demand debt relief for Greece, a shift that could break the five-month stalemate and avert a potentially disastrous rupture of monetary union at this Sunday’s last-ditch summit.
In a highly significant move, the European Council has called on both sides to make major concessions, insisting that the creditor powers must do their part as the radical Syriza government puts forward a new raft of proposals on economic reforms before a deadline expires tonight.
This is the first time Europe's institutions have acknowledged clearly that Greece’s public debt – 180pc of GDP – can never be repaid and that no lasting solution can be found until the boil is lanced.
Any such deal would give Greek premier Alexis Tspiras a prize to take back to the Greek people after they voted by 61pc to 39pc to reject austerity demands in a landslide referendum last weekend.
While he would still have to deliver on tough reforms and breach key red lines, a debt restructuring of sufficient scale would probably be enough to clinch a deal, and allow him to return to Athens as a conquering hero.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-to-huge-global-pressure-for-debt-relief.html
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No, it was an absolutely appalling display of double morals of a man who has a personal (conflict of) interest in this whole sharade. This article sums it up quite nicely. Contrary to what the media and the EU is spinning to us, the Greek have made massive cuts the past few years. Verhofstadt is a populist at best and a crony at worst.
But guess what, it will never be enough, their economy is in shambles at this point, the country is on the verge of destruction, there's no more meat left to cut away so to speak.
And the measures that would help alot (like taxing the rich and the big companies, selling frequency licenses) are actively blocked (!) by the IMF and the Troika, because guess what: those are the big European companies and banks and they'll do anything to protect those. That's where all this money is going, not to the Greeks for sure...
I'm surprised to see so many in here who buy into the story the EU is spinning here (follow the money!) and believe that adding more debt is going to solve the debt problem. It just won't. There's only one 'right' way out of this and that is to cut the debt.
It's the EU/ECB that needs to die IMO, not Greece. Because today it's Greece, next up ??
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
No, the first thing to do is to get more money into Greece. Forget the politicians, it's people like you and me who are suffering right now.
The money has to be injected some how and it has to be done without having a knock-on effect on other economies both in real-terms of the loss of 300 billion Euros and in terms of the currency's perceived trading value. Greece have known this fine well, it's why they've just held out and held out.
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It doesn't matter how the outcome is.
The Greek people will always be the ones suffering, and they are partially to blame for this mess.
The government is to blame for spending way too much and being corrupt. The people are to blame for dodging many taxes.
Now reality has finally caught up and it's time to sit on the blisters.
If! the turmoil ends this weekend with an agreement.
The Greek people will always be the ones suffering, and they are partially to blame for this mess.
The government is to blame for spending way too much and being corrupt. The people are to blame for dodging many taxes.
Now reality has finally caught up and it's time to sit on the blisters.
If! the turmoil ends this weekend with an agreement.
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I definitely smell a rat...
Varoufakis and Tsipras are pressing ahead with a raft of austerity measures that make a mockery of everything they have both said for the last year or so, but Greece will stand to gain a substantial new bailout package as well as debt relief...
Something clearly does not add up... no wonder some in Germany and elsewhere are "sceptical"...
Varoufakis and Tsipras are pressing ahead with a raft of austerity measures that make a mockery of everything they have both said for the last year or so, but Greece will stand to gain a substantial new bailout package as well as debt relief...
Something clearly does not add up... no wonder some in Germany and elsewhere are "sceptical"...
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Coincidence?
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Things are looking bad for Greece - EU finance ministers have failed to reach an agreement on the third bailout, with Finland refusing to accept it, and Germany calling for Greece to be expelled from the Eurozone for 5 years. And even if the finance ministers do reach an agreement, EU leaders still need to agree tomorrow, which is unlikely given the degree of skepticism about Greece's sincerity - can you blame them?
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