Europe - The Official Thread

According to a discussion I saw in the BBC news channel a few days ago, there is no exit facility of any kind at all from the Eurozone agreement, so I wonder what Germany have been smoking.
 
Tired Tyres
According to a discussion I saw in the BBC news channel a few days ago, there is no exit facility of any kind at all from the Eurozone agreement, so I wonder what Germany have been smoking.
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Agreed, seems a little harsh, but then again Schäuble is known for being a tough nut.
 
Tired Tyres
According to a discussion I saw in the BBC news channel a few days ago, there is no exit facility of any kind at all from the Eurozone agreement, so I wonder what Germany have been smoking.
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The premise was that the pre-checks would suffice, those and the anticipated honesty and integrity of all parties. I wonder what Greece were smoking?
 
Tired Tyres
According to a discussion I saw in the BBC news channel a few days ago, there is no exit facility of any kind at all from the Eurozone agreement, so I wonder what Germany have been smoking.
Click to expand...

My understanding was that none was created as it was always meant for it to be like Hotel California, and permanent membership was implied but not explicit when a country joins the Eurozone. If that is the case, and the Eurozone treaty just doesn't specifically address member permanency, then a Grexit should still be within the letter of the original treaty.
 
In Brussel, the Greek parliament still has to agree with it.

I wonder what will happen.
 
Now we wait and see whether Greece actually does what it agrees to, instead of business as usual until they default again and ask for more money (again).
EDIT: Assuming the relevant parliaments pass the bill.
 
Whilst riding roughshod over proper democratic principles of debate and oversight you mean?

I wonder if this will still be going on when we get our in/out vote on EU membership. :rolleyes:
 
If this deal goes through, Tsipras can't possibly stay on as PM. He royally screwed the Greeks by not being able to get just one of his election promises to work, he screwed them again after the referendum and now he screwed them even harder by accepting this deal, which is an even tougher deal than before.

Tired Tyres
Whilst riding roughshod over proper democratic principles of debate and oversight you mean?
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You mean all those years that Europe tried and tried and tried to have the Greeks accepting a plan that worked well for the other PIIGS countries?

The Greek government is the only one left to blame.
 
Dennisch
If this deal goes through, Tsipras can't possibly stay on as PM. He royally screwed the Greeks by not being able to get just one of his election promises to work, he screwed them again after the referendum and now he screwed them even harder by accepting this deal, which is an even tougher deal than before.



You mean all those years that Europe tried and tried and tried to have the Greeks accepting a plan that worked well for the other PIIGS countries?

The Greek government is the only one left to blame.
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I'm fairly certain Tsippy will end up in a cush job somewhere, perhaps in an EU or UN executive position.
 
Johnnypenso
I'm fairly certain Tsippy will end up in a cush job somewhere, perhaps in an EU or UN executive position.
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That is something I highly doubt, he isn't very liked by his European counterparts.

Also,

Can we round up those who started and are still using words like Grexit, Graccident and now Greekment.
 
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Let's call it Grexi-gate and watch the internet implode.

-

"gate" sucks as a suffix. What are they going to call it when we have a (new) scandal about Nestle's bottling activities? Water-gate?
 
This seems to be the "deal" that the various squabbling parliaments will have to vote on. At best it seems like kicking the can down the street, a deal that might last 3 days, 3 months or 3 years. Quite how the Greeks will accept privatizing their ports and airports is to be wondered.
  • The Greek parliament must immediately adopt laws to reform key parts of its economy - by Wednesday. The reforms include: streamlining the pension system and boosting tax revenue - especially from VAT
  • A commitment to liberalise the labour market, privatise the electricity network and extend shop opening hours
  • The eurozone agrees in principle to start negotiations on a loan package for Greece worth €82bn-86bn (£59bn-£62bn; $91bn-$96bn)
  • The loan will come mainly from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) - the eurozone bailout fund. But the International Monetary Fund will also be asked to make a contribution from March 2016
  • A new trust fund will be set up, managed by Greece, with €50bn of Greek assets. It is a mechanism for paying off part of the total ESM loan. Half of the €50bn will be used to fund recapitalisation of Greek banks, the other half will go towards reducing Greece's debt mountain - by privatising assets - and investing in Greece.
  • Greece will get short-term bridge financing to avoid bankruptcy - separate from the ESM. The amount is estimated to be €7bn by next Monday and another €5bn by mid-August
  • Out of the total ESM loan about €10bn will be used immediately to recapitalise Greek banks - but the banks may need €25bn in total
  • The European Central Bank, eurozone finance ministers and the IMF will tightly monitor Greek compliance with the bailout conditions
  • Negotiations on the ESM bailout will begin only after the plan is approved by the parliaments of Finland, Germany and Greece
  • The eurozone is ready if necessary to extend the repayment period of Greek debt (by debt rescheduling), but debt will not be written off (so no "haircut")
  • The European Commission will try to mobilise €35bn - outside the ESM loan - to help Greece with growth and job creation.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33504487
 
@Dotini I believe you owe me $1 USD - that doesn't look like the EU yielding better terms to me.;)

Last night, the EU let one of their ace cards show - the idea that if Greece wants (or needs) to be treated like a dependant, then it will have to become one in a much more real sense.... that the Greeks will have to surrender financial sovereignty to Berlin, excuse me, Brussels. This is not as outlandish as it might sound - Merkel has been saying this for years - that if the Eurozone is to work as it was designed, then member states need to yield some sovereignty - Greece could pave the way for the beginning of the kind of financial/fiscal union that eurosceptics have been railing against since day one.

Dennisch
If this deal goes through, Tsipras can't possibly stay on as PM. He royally screwed the Greeks by not being able to get just one of his election promises to work, he screwed them again after the referendum and now he screwed them even harder by accepting this deal, which is an even tougher deal than before.
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My thoughts exactly - he bluffed and was called... there was never any prospect of anyone buying into the various narratives that Tsipras and Varoufakis have constructed other than the Greeks themselves, and as has become painfully apparent (mostly to the Greeks themselves), they are not and never have been in a position to bargain (or vote) their way out of their predicament.

Ironically, this deal looks like the best way to guarantee that this whole debacle gets repeated as @Dotini says, possibly within a few months or even sooner if it transpires that the sceptics are right and that the Greeks really do have no intention (or, perhaps more kindly) no ability to implement the reforms being demanded of them.
 
Touring Mars
Ironically, this deal looks like the best way to guarantee that this whole debacle gets repeated as @Dotini says, possibly within a few months or even sooner if it transpires that the sceptics are right and that the Greeks really do have no intention (or, perhaps more kindly) no ability to implement the reforms being demanded of them.
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Exactly.

But the pending deal still needs acceptance by the Parliaments or else the crisis is still in the room with us. Until then I'll hold on to my dollar.
 
Dotini
  • The loan will come mainly from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) - the eurozone bailout fund. But the International Monetary Fund will also be asked to make a contribution from March 2016
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They also want to give short term loan from the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) and bloody hell, every state in the EU have liability for it, keep it in the Eurozone ****ing communists.
 
A few niggles have emerged with the $95 billion Greece bailout deal #3.

The IMF says no, and Britain says no.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33531845
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33528894

Essentially, the IMF says without debt relief, the deal is "highly unsustainable".
"the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt."

And Britain says no to the immediate and urgent EFSM bridging loan on the grounds that it is not in the euro.
"Prime Minister David Cameron said in 2010 he had won a "clear and unanimous agreement" that the EFSM would not be used for further eurozone bailouts, after it was used to assist Ireland and Portugal."

Osborne said,
"But let me be very clear. Britain is not in the euro, so the idea that British taxpayers are going to be on the line for this Greek deal is a complete non-starter. The eurozone needs to foot its own bill."

Meanwhile, voting is to take place today in the Greek parliament amid strikes and a sustained bank shutdown.
 
But.... but.... we had an a-greek-ment...

Tsipras gave a very telling interview yesterday, where he said he 'didn't believe' in the agreement but had no choice but to sign up to it because otherwise it would lead to the destruction of the Greek economy. For once I agree with him - I think he's right on that front.... of course, that doesn't mean the agreement was good or correct, just that he has no choice but to take what is on offer from the EU, whether good or bad.

But, the chances of the rest of his party swallowing this bitter pill were always going to be small - but it could be a fateful decision indeed.

If Tsipras's leadership was untenable before (unpopular with the EU, out of step with the Greek people), he's certainly going to be on his way out if he can't even command his own party. Cue a general election and the bailout deal collapsing... goodbye to the Greek banking sector and the Greek economy.
 
I'm just wondering - how is the Greek economy expected to grow so that its debts can eventually be paid (or at least serviced)?
 
DK
I'm just wondering - how is the Greek economy expected to grow so that its debts can eventually be paid (or at least serviced)?
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You and everyone else!

The market believes Greece is at severe risk. They are falling like a rock in terms of GDP, unemployment, despair and even violence. Growth is out of the question until they can stanch the hemorrhaging. Even if they vote for the bailout, no one in their right mind believes they will actually comply with the new austerities. This appears to be a perpetual crisis. But heck, it's better than perpetual war. Experto credite.
 
DK
I'm just wondering - how is the Greek economy expected to grow so that its debts can eventually be paid (or at least serviced)?
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I'm not sure that anyone knows. However, if it dies then it definitely can't be resuscitated... I think that's the point they're trying to work outwards from at the moment.
 

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