Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out

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Latest info from virtual, go there to see their new pics

Source: http://www.virtualr.net/fanatec-forza-motorsport-csr-wheels-e3-hands-on/

Last week, Fanatec unveiled their brand new Forza Motorsport CSR & CSR Elite Wheels. As usual, the SRT guys were on site to give the prototypes a try and Darin Gangi is sharing his initial impressions of the wheels below.

By: Darin Gangi
As usual, Thomas Jackermeier the CEO of Fanatec had some big surprises in store for us this year at E3. I had actually heard about the CSR Elite wheel months ago as Thomas and I talk frequently. Not only had I heard about this wheel, I tried a prototype of it last year while he was here for E3 2010. He brought a version of it for us to evaluate and test for him. (I hope I don’t get in trouble for saying that)

The wheel is not going to come cheap. We tried to squeeze a price out of Thomas, but he wouldn’t give an exact figure. If I had to put a price tag on it, I would say at least $500 for the wheel by itself without pedals. There was a mention of $700 on the show floor, but that was not confirmed and may have included pedals and a shifter.
The build quality is amazing and so is how it looks esthetically. The main shaft mechanism is very similar to what you would find in a Frex wheel and it’s referred to as a worm drive. The biggest difference between this CSR Elite and the Frex wheel is the size.. Fanatec is doing it in half the size with the same amount or maybe more precision.
It’s branded in Forza motorsport colors and is Xbox 360, PC and PS3 compatible. It has a joystick and all the buttons you would find on an Xbox controller. The wheel is approximately 13’ in diameter with wheel that’s made of a hard plastic with rubber grips at the points that you would normally handle a wheel.

I really don’t have enough time with the wheel to give a proper evaluation of it.. I can say this.. It is one of the smoothest steering mechanisms in all of sim racing. The Force Feedback is very strong while being precise. The location of the paddle shifters were placed in close proximity to your hand for positive shifts and are similar in size to what you might find on a G27. One of my complaints with the current Fanatec line of wheels is the paddle shifter or button,. This is no longer the case. This wheel and the standard CSR have a much better paddle shifting system.

We will have more on this wheel and the rest of the line up in our E3 Fanatec special report that will be out by the end of this week. It will include an interview with some tech guy at Fanatec named “Mr T”. He was quiet a character. Jessica ran into him at the Codemasters booth while we were checking out F1 2011. Besides the interview, our crew captured some never before seen footage of something that will shock many sim racers. We also got to see the first images of the Clubsport Shifter that we will share with everyone as well.

I’ve included some images from our time with the CSR Elite at E3. Some are 1920 x 1080 and the others aren’t as large unfortunately because I captured them from footage we have of the wheel. We’ll have more on this wheel, the CSR, Clubsport Handbrake and Shifter as well as a special surprise that you’ll have to watch our Fanatec E3 special
 
sandboxgod
Latest info from virtual, go there to see their new pics

Source: http://www.virtualr.net/fanatec-forza-motorsport-csr-wheels-e3-hands-on/

Last week, Fanatec unveiled their brand new Forza Motorsport CSR & CSR Elite Wheels. As usual, the SRT guys were on site to give the prototypes a try and Darin Gangi is sharing his initial impressions of the wheels below.

By: Darin Gangi
As usual, Thomas Jackermeier the CEO of Fanatec had some big surprises in store for us this year at E3. I had actually heard about the CSR Elite wheel months ago as Thomas and I talk frequently. Not only had I heard about this wheel, I tried a prototype of it last year while he was here for E3 2010. He brought a version of it for us to evaluate and test for him. (I hope I donÂ’t get in trouble for saying that)

The wheel is not going to come cheap. We tried to squeeze a price out of Thomas, but he wouldnÂ’t give an exact figure. If I had to put a price tag on it, I would say at least $500 for the wheel by itself without pedals. There was a mention of $700 on the show floor, but that was not confirmed and may have included pedals and a shifter.
The build quality is amazing and so is how it looks esthetically. The main shaft mechanism is very similar to what you would find in a Frex wheel and itÂ’s referred to as a worm drive. The biggest difference between this CSR Elite and the Frex wheel is the size.. Fanatec is doing it in half the size with the same amount or maybe more precision.
ItÂ’s branded in Forza motorsport colors and is Xbox 360, PC and PS3 compatible. It has a joystick and all the buttons you would find on an Xbox controller. The wheel is approximately 13Â’ in diameter with wheel thatÂ’s made of a hard plastic with rubber grips at the points that you would normally handle a wheel.

I really donÂ’t have enough time with the wheel to give a proper evaluation of it.. I can say this.. It is one of the smoothest steering mechanisms in all of sim racing. The Force Feedback is very strong while being precise. The location of the paddle shifters were placed in close proximity to your hand for positive shifts and are similar in size to what you might find on a G27. One of my complaints with the current Fanatec line of wheels is the paddle shifter or button,. This is no longer the case. This wheel and the standard CSR have a much better paddle shifting system.

We will have more on this wheel and the rest of the line up in our E3 Fanatec special report that will be out by the end of this week. It will include an interview with some tech guy at Fanatec named “Mr T”. He was quiet a character. Jessica ran into him at the Codemasters booth while we were checking out F1 2011. Besides the interview, our crew captured some never before seen footage of something that will shock many sim racers. We also got to see the first images of the Clubsport Shifter that we will share with everyone as well.

IÂ’ve included some images from our time with the CSR Elite at E3. Some are 1920 x 1080 and the others arenÂ’t as large unfortunately because I captured them from footage we have of the wheel. WeÂ’ll have more on this wheel, the CSR, Clubsport Handbrake and Shifter as well as a special surprise that youÂ’ll have to watch our Fanatec E3 special
Click to expand...


will this be the direct competitor for the t500rs?
 
^^ Yes from what I can tell, Thomas has been taking the t500rs apart since it came out. In the t500rs thread, he seemed to know exactly how precise the brakes were, etc. So I'm sure Fanatec's goal with the CSR Elite was to top the T500rs

He's probably been sitting on pins & needles for months, bursting with excitement and couldn't wait to reveal it to the public. Of course leaks occured here & there. We already devs been tweeting bout the prototypes they've been sent (I refer to the tweet from the f1 2011 developer). And since they seemed excited, that further confirmed it was a t500rs competitor.

The way Darrin from ISR is talking hes saying it feels precise- onpar with the FREX. So really Thomas has obviously set his eyes on making the most superior wheel that was ever made.

There is no doubt Fanatec is capable in every way to accomplish such a feat. But what remains to be seen is how will Fanatec handle the demand for these new FM4 branded wheels.

I'm not even that big of a Forza fan. But I cant help but be curious about experiencing the game with a wheel built to fully exploit it
 
i don't think this will match the t500rs. the extraprice comes from xbox compatibility. t500rs is really good, that's what my fellow simracers tell me. you grab the csp pedals and you're set in iracing. another downside for this fanatec wheel is that nobody knows when it will be available. i think 2011 is out of the question anyway
 
T500rs is excellent đź‘Ť

I'm honestly baffled how could someone make a better, faster, and stronger wheel. I'm sure that's what hes trying to accomplish though. He's been talking about for a pretty good while now on his blog.

I personally cant justify unloading another $500 on a wheel alone though. I was thinking of the cheaper CSR if I had to breakdown and play FM4
 
The performance of the ELITE wheel should very much be a match for the T500RS. I'd expect limited quantities and the first Pre order batch to sellout and arrive just in time for FM4 launch or slightly after.

I might have to beg, borrow or steal to get one but damn I so want one to enjoy FM4 at it's best.
 
We don't start a development if we just want to "match" the competition. In fact if you look at the review scores of the PWGT2 you see that we already have a wheel which matches the T500RS.
 
Only the engadget review gave the GT2 a higher score from what I recall when I originally was deciding what to buy. ISR and most others picked T500rs over the GT2 (virtualr, etc). But more importantly, it was word of mouth that really pushed the T500rs. I remember when I held my T500rs in my hands at my local FRY's store trying to decide to pay for my wheel iRacing fans and others said they couldn't imagine a more perfect wheel. I kid you not I sat there in the middle of the isle with my wheel in my cart for a few minutes trying to decide & was swayed by local gaming fans that got a chance to play with it or heard great things bout it

Anyway FRY's employees claimed they were surprised a lot of these wheels went to PC sim racers. By this time many have already purchased T500rs wheels

I still think the Fanatec CSR Elite will be at a big disadvantage to the T500rs wheel even it's superior. Thrustmaster wisely won over the hardcore PC sim community at iRacing with the great word of mouth, customer service, and easy of purchase. Plus the new TM Mustang promotion cant hurt as well. The Fanatec customer support thread there is still very long and ugly versus the T500rs support thread hasn;t been bumped for quite awhile. Gamer after gamer there recommends the t500rs. I dunno maybe Fanatec needs a better presence there as well. Hell, even the iRacing programmer said he found problems with Fanatec but after the fireworks he clarified he was using the GT3RSv1 wheel and wasn't sure if the v2 wheels had better FFB support

Fortunately for Fanatec the xbox 360 platform is still a barren place for wheels. So there's no contest there. Still I am greatly disappointed in Turn 10. Dan only briefly mentions the Fanatec wheels and then proceeds to play with controllers and states that that's what most people will largely use. Sure that's common sense and all but I would expect more effort on Turn 10's part to push the wheels even more. For instance, give demos using the Fanatec wheels at E3 (by Dan, their main figure head). Not just play with a controller đź‘Ž
 
Fanatec...
We don't start a development if we just want to "match" the competition. In fact if you look at the review scores of the PWGT2 you see that we already have a wheel which matches the T500RS.
Click to expand...

Well by being a "match" I refer to the T500RS power and precision as specifics.
General review scores are a different matter.

Thomas, you still havnt explained what exactly the dual motors do but one would assume it is for independant Left/Right rotation. Rather than one motor going both directions?
 
We fully focused on a low cogging force to avoid the notchy feeling when you turn the wheel against full FF power. Two smaller motors are much better in this respect than one big motor. The goal was to make it feel like in a real car so you no longer have to play with a toy.
 
Fanatec...
We fully focused on a low cogging force to avoid the notchy feeling when you turn the wheel against full FF power. Two smaller motors are much better in this respect than one big motor. The goal was to make it feel like in a real car so you no longer have to play with a toy.
Click to expand...

Interesting, so its smooth nice. Your saying then the 120W reported at CES is dual 60W motors though. If the T500RS was 65W then your Elite is almost double T500RS?

Huhhh huhhh, I like it....
 
sandboxgod
Only the engadget review gave the GT2 a higher score from what I recall when I originally was deciding what to buy. ISR and most others picked T500rs over the GT2 (virtualr, etc).
Click to expand...

Engadget is more "Consumer Report: type of reviewer. They seem to care more about certain aspect of a product, in this case the fact that GT2 is compatible on all platforms, that you can purchase the wheel and pedal separately etc. Sim-racers and to some extent gamers are more interested in the quality and feel of the FFB (although compatibility and prices/options are important as well).

One of the thing Engadget review did highlight is how the reviewer feel there isn't quite a performance difference between the GT2 and G27 but in the case of the T500RS, Engadget mentioned how well the wheel performs- both the power and feel of the FFB and the precision of the 1080deg rotation wheel.


I've just saw ISR "preview" of the Thrustmaster shifter. Thrustmaster is smartly refusing to show the whole shifter. The guy from ISR said that it reminds him of Lamborghini's and Ferrari's gated shifter (for obvious reason) and that shifting not only feels positive but that it's quite easy to shift, for example, from 5th to 2nd gear. No price of course. It's a good news for PS3 simmers since this add to another shifter from Frex- a G25/G27 based shifter:

hshifttypegside01_640.jpg
 
Fanatec...
But of course we are working on a new webshop to increase our service.
Click to expand...


When you say "increase our service" do you mean take more of the customers money and don't deliver when promised? or do you mean you will start delivering when promised?

It is really annoying watching Fanatec revealing new products when there are so many customers who have waited 6 plus months waiting for delivery.

How about throwing in that handbrake for free for the interest you have made off of us in the past 6 months and all the stories we have endured about all the people you are blaming for not delivering our products in a reasonable time.
 
I agree that it took a long time (too long!) but by the time you ordered the product we already told you that we will ship the wheel in May. This was clearly mentioned in the product description. We shipped in early June so this is too late but not that much, right?

In future we want to avoid pre-orders and start taking orders only when the products have been shipped from China.
 
Fanatec...
In future we want to avoid pre-orders and start taking orders only when the products have been shipped from China.
Click to expand...
This is a good decision.

I cannot comment on sandboxgod well argumented post as I haven't had the chance to try the T500RS (but I would never buy it because of the fixed shifting paddles đź‘Ž and because there is no way to buy the wheel only đź‘Ž or at least use their pedal separatly so I could sell them as I keep my CSP), but I will go in his direction when talking about Fanatec flaws (= area of improvements, as a manufacturer / reseller):

Thomas, you just told you will take orders only if products are on the way from China in the futur, and as said above I think this is good.

You also tell wheels that were to be shipped in May have been shipped in June and that it is not that much a delay, and with this I can agree.

Now what about the SDK that we are waiting for for years now ? Do you think this is acceptable ? To me this is not serious at all from a company. You used those features (CSP vibration, wheels' display) to advertise your products (on your webshop descriptions, on your blog, and in your videos) and those features are still restricted to 1 or 2 games after years now.

That's the main thing I will blame you. Starting too many projects (new products) before what was promised before is finished. By the time you first talked about the CSP vivration, the LCD display, and the according SDK to make them work, you made the gt3rsv2 (v1 too ? idk if turbo S was the 1st or not), the CSP color kit, the shifter paddles kit, the GT2 wheel with xbox compatibilty, and now another huge products line extension with nothing less than 2 new wheels, one with a complete new base, an improved shifter, a clubsport shifter, a clubsport handbrake, a new set of pedals and... still no SDK to make the old gt3rs / turbo S display datas from games and the CSP vibrates on wheels locks... This isn't serious at all if you ask me. I will even say this is disrepectful as it was used to advertise your products, to help you SELLING them.

Beside this, another improvement I would like at Fanatec is a closer work with game developpers. I will speak about shift2, for example, with which Fanatec wheels offer a poor FFB. This is also what makes (or breaks ! :crazy:) the renown of your products Thomas. How good the support of your wheels is in various games. I know game developpers have their hands not free because that's the publishers who pay and decide. And I know people using wheels are the minority, thus getting less love than gamepads when games are developped. But I whish you push more about the support of your wheels in the futur. The most you can. Trying to get alpha/beta versions, testing them internally, and pointing developpers the bugs and improvements areas concerning the support of your products.

And last point, I would say communicating. You come on forums to talk with the community, and have also 911wheels to talk with us and make announcements and that's all good. But sometimes, I don't understand your communication. The post you made to ask us our wishes for a clubsport wheel for example. And now we see this new Elite wheel base that really sounds like it is the clubsport base :confused: So what's going on ? Is this the clubsport base or you plan something even better for the clubsport wheel you asked us about our whishes ?

Don't take it bad. I like your products, I like the way you try to get the best price / quality ratio by selling directly to customers, I never suffered the lack of customer service (yet), even if my CSP was received broken and I ended repairing it myself, and I like you ask your customers about their wishes for the products being developped, but I feel the need to point you out the main flaws I see at Fanatec, hoping it will help to improve our satisfaction as customers / players, resulting in an improvement of Fanatec's image. The above flaws I raise are from me but not only, that's also what I frenquently read on the french forums (and english ones too).
 
ceth
The post you made to ask us our wishes for a clubsport wheel for example. And now we see this new Elite wheel base that really sounds like it is the clubsport base So what's going on ? Is this the clubsport base or you plan something even better for the clubsport wheel you asked us about our whishes ?
Click to expand...

I also expected a Clubsport wheel. Anyway sooner or later it must come.

As I have said other times I would like they made rim variations. There are so many great german car brands: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi...
 
Last edited:
When I ordered my product your website indicated the product was in stock and delivery would be 1 to 2 weeks. I am still waiting, in fact I have requested a refund plus interest.


Fanatec...
I agree that it took a long time (too long!) but by the time you ordered the product we already told you that we will ship the wheel in May. This was clearly mentioned in the product description. We shipped in early June so this is too late but not that much, right?

In future we want to avoid pre-orders and start taking orders only when the products have been shipped from China.
Click to expand...
 
left888
When I ordered my product your website indicated the product was in stock and delivery would be 1 to 2 weeks. I am still waiting, in fact I have requested a refund plus interest.
Click to expand...
Bad point for Fanatec then.

Jose'
I also expected a Clubsport wheel. Anyway sooner or later it must come.

As I have said other times I would like they made rim variations. There are so many great german car brands: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi...
Click to expand...
Something I fear about the new base is the weight of the wheel. It is belt-driven as my gt3rs, and the gt3rs is heavy to turn. So I fear how it will be for the Elite base when I see those bigger (thus maybe heavier) moving pieces (belt, belt support, direction column).

A heavy wheel is really annoying when it's about laptimes racing in general. Quick steering corrections suffer it a lot, lowering your ability to turn right and sharp, and to react quickly to grip / control loss. It's also a lot tiring over time.

And drift mode is absolutely not an answer to this (because of the overshot). I believe the correct answer is weight reduction for any moving part, including the wheel rim of course.

Now one thing I don't really understand is the gt3rs is lighter when it is not powered. I don't understand why you can't get it as light to turn with power on. Technically, you should be able to.
 
Last edited:
ceth
Bad point for Fanatec then.


Something I fear about the new base is the weight of the wheel. It is belt-driven as my gt3rs, and the gt3rs is heavy to turn. So I fear how it will be for the Elite base when I see those bigger (thus maybe heavier) moving pieces (belt, belt support, direction column).

A heavy wheel is really annoying when it's about laptimes. Quick steering corrections suffer it a lot, lowering your ability to turn right and sharp, and to react quickly to grip / control loss. It's also a lot tiring over time.

And drift mode is absolutely not an answer to this (because of the overshot). I believe the correct answer is weight reduction for any moving part, including the wheel rim of course.

Now one thing I don't really understand is the gt3rs is lighter when it is not powered. I don't understand why you can't get it as light to turn with power on. Technically, you should be able to.
Click to expand...

When it's about laptimes, IMO, it's just as much about steering range..

Using 900 degree steering with a heavy wheel is going to be imprecise due to all the downsides of the increased inertia..
However, if you limit the steering range, weight isn't that much of an issue, and it's less fatiguing in general.

For laptimes, I actually run my PWTS with the steering range set to (shock horror) around 210 degrees, this allows very quick steering, but still very precise, no need to use any drift settings, and can get away with higher FFB settings without suffering too much from fatigue on extended sessions, and my times in various games immediately started improving, if I open the steering range back up, my laptimes fall again..
 
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I use 210 too sometimes (with F1 2010 for example). With shift2 I use 360/540 depending on the track/car/car setup. I never go above 540. Even 540, I use this setting on rare occasions only.

But precision isn't the only factor to consider. The ablitity to make the wheel accelerate the most when starting the rotation is crucial when it's about recoving car control or even just reacting to a small grip loss. And in this area, there is no discuss possible: the heavier, the slower.

This also applies to the situation of reverting the wheel rotation. And same here: the heavier the wheel, the higher the momentum, the harder/slower to revert the rotation (or even just stop it). And the higher momentum on heavy wheels affect your precision too as you won't stop exactly where you wanted.

Being able to make quick moves is even more important when you consider the inherent latency simulations suffer. You already have a delay for your physical actions to be processed by the engine (and then the result displayed). You don't want to add more to that because of a heavy wheel.
 
ceth
I use 210 too sometimes (with F1 2010 for example). With shift2 I use 360/540 depending on the track/car/car setup. I never go above 540. Even 540, I use this setting on rare occasions only.

But precision isn't the only factor to consider. The ablitity to make the wheel accelerate the most when starting the rotation is crucial when it's about recoving car control or even just reacting to a small grip loss. And in this area, there is no discuss possible: the heavier, the slower.

This also applies to the situation of reverting the wheel rotation. And same here: the heavier the wheel, the higher the momentum, the harder/slower to revert the rotation (or even just stop it). And the higher momentum on heavy wheels affect your precision too as you won't stop exactly where you wanted.

Being able to make quick moves is even more important when you consider the inherent latency simulations suffer. You already have a delay for your physical actions to be processed by the engine (and then the result displayed). You don't want to add more to that because of a heavy wheel.
Click to expand...

I understand the physics of it all, and you are spot in, in theory..

But in my experience, I only have my PWTS and my brothers GT2 (Previously had a G25 then G27), the wheel weight is still very low, it's made largely of plastic, and most of the weight is close to centre, and I can honestly say, when it comes to speed of rotation (definitely required in games like F1 2010), the wheel weight does not remotely feature.
What I overwhelmingly feel is the slight drag/intertia of the belt FFB mechanism which is the only thing that I would say is possibly a fraction too high if you where being exceedingly comparative to a freely rotating gear driven wheel.

Just to put things into perspective, I previously used the cheapo official MS wireless wheel on the 360 for games like F1 2010 and FM3, and that is as light as you are ever going to get in terms of wheel rim weight etc, and again, it was always the FFB mechanism that was the overwhelming feature of any innaccuracy due to any inertial effect.

All IMO, and IMO, I think this is getting a bit OTT, the rim weights will be different, but any effects this may have is scales of magnitude smaller then the rest of the FFB mechanism IMO.
 
Of course when I was talking about "heavy wheel", I meant the feeling it is heavy (i.e. hard to turn). And this is mainly due to the mechanism (and a bit because of the wheel rim weight itself, but not that much indeed).
 
ceth
Of course when I was talking about "heavy wheel", I meant the feeling it is heavy (i.e. hard to turn). And this is mainly due to the mechanism (and a bit because of the wheel rim weight itself, but not that much indeed).
Click to expand...

Putting it into perspective, even the resistance (assume FFB is turned down appropriately) is not a consideration in my own experiences, your arm's are much heavier, and take much more effort then anything my PWTS is doing.. I notice only a small difference in fatigue in a 3 hours session compared to my old MS wireless wheel..

Perhaps my PWTS is not indicative of the issues some people are having?
 
Idk if the pwts and the gt3rs are comparable or not. I never tried the pwts. But I assume it is as it is the same mechanics in both.

I personnaly feel it takes much more effort to turn the gt3rs than to move my arms alone^^
Also intensive races or laptime sessions make me sweat a lot. Much more than with my previous Microsoft FFB wheel (the old sidewinder).

And I have compared both in slow motion videos while I was doing latency video tests for shift2, there's no doubt the weight/resistance of the gt3rs makes the acceleration of the rotation much more slower.
 

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