- 3,195
- tribolik
You are so old school and auto transmition is so 2011... the new trend is autopilot... you sit tell the car/PC the location you are headed and then take a nap...
Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out
- Thread starter Crispy
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You are so old school and auto transmition is so 2011... the new trend is autopilot... you sit tell the car/PC the location you are headed and then take a nap...
LogiForce
Premium
- 4,078
- Groningen, Netherlands
- LogiForce86
- LogiForce
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
amf7
Sainsburys own brand Rich tea are a lot better for dunking IMHO.
The circumference allows dunking without the hassle of nibbling the side of the biscuit before rotating 90* and allowing access for the dunk.
Why do rich tea make there biscuits bigger than the cup.
Before anyone says it my cup is a regular size.
Sainburys FTW.
- 2,143
- UK
- amf7F1
I have never really thought about it! I guess it's psychological to make people think they get more for there £'s
- 3,195
- tribolik
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Wow this thread has moved along at a rapid pace.. I'm quite excited to see the clutch/brake advancements for the CSP's, even though I've never even felt the progressive feel of load cell's... yet.
Amar brought up the point with the "small thingie" about incompatibility of higher end brakes (hydraulics) with consoles, and I've always wondered why ECCI or Derek Speare for example, can't sell some kind of adapter and/or PCB to convert signal to work in tandem with GT5 or Forza?
Is it just impossible/too complicated to do, or what? Or even using the CSP V2's along with the T500 (my current wheel) and TH8 within GT5? Why can't that be accomplished? ... maybe a noob question.
Amar brought up the point with the "small thingie" about incompatibility of higher end brakes (hydraulics) with consoles, and I've always wondered why ECCI or Derek Speare for example, can't sell some kind of adapter and/or PCB to convert signal to work in tandem with GT5 or Forza?
Is it just impossible/too complicated to do, or what? Or even using the CSP V2's along with the T500 (my current wheel) and TH8 within GT5? Why can't that be accomplished? ... maybe a noob question.
- 6,962
- United Kingdom
Lewis Hamilton has ordered a Zonda 760LH with a manual gearbox recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beutB6R0Zqg&t=10m51s
I think people will still enjoy driving with their 'legacy' manual gearbox in their brand new or old cars just as people will enjoy the systems with the latest tech as they both have advantages and disadvantages. Good that Fanatec wheels can have both options.
- 2,822
- Espoo
- GTP_Raitzi
That version of pdk is not very good. New PDK with carrera S
Manual 0 - 60 4.5s (actually slower than cayman r with pdk)
PDK 0-60 3.9s
http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...sche-911-carrera-s-pdk-vs-7-speed-manual.html
Manual 0 - 60 4.5s (actually slower than cayman r with pdk)
PDK 0-60 3.9s
http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...sche-911-carrera-s-pdk-vs-7-speed-manual.html
JogoAsobi
Premium
- 2,578
Yes, but last time I checked both the iPhone and the iPad have not gone up in price when newer versions are released. They are released at the same price point with newer features than their immediate model predecessors.
The problem on the console side is complicated by the Microsoft and Sony technical fiefdoms, their related licensing, and the very different standards they use for connecting peripheral input devices.
That probably has a lot to with why there is no "industry standard" on the console side to allow mix and match of lets say a Thrustmaster wheel with CSPs.
On the PC, USB is the standard interface, and as long as drivers are provided, input peripherals from different manufacturers should theoretically play nice with each other.
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- 558
- Quebec, Canada
- Lamalozo
Ouch, I am not sure all these replies are about difference between european and american races 
Manual versus automatic versus dual clutch versus variator versus robotic gearbox... well I prefer the manual clutch I used when driving "normal" cars (in France I was driving a Renault Laguna, now I currently own a Honda Odyssey T_T).
But if you speak about robotic gearbox like the F430 "F1 gearbox" or Lamborghini Superleggera I have driven once, then I prefer "automatic" gearbox
I am more disappointed by the Audi R8 gearbox.
High end sport automatic gearbox is now more efficient than manual gearbox.
Manual versus automatic versus dual clutch versus variator versus robotic gearbox... well I prefer the manual clutch I used when driving "normal" cars (in France I was driving a Renault Laguna, now I currently own a Honda Odyssey T_T).
But if you speak about robotic gearbox like the F430 "F1 gearbox" or Lamborghini Superleggera I have driven once, then I prefer "automatic" gearbox
I am more disappointed by the Audi R8 gearbox.
High end sport automatic gearbox is now more efficient than manual gearbox.
- 4,004
- Croatia
I am not 100% sure, but I think it is somewhat complicated.
Thomas or Derek *could* probably give us a 100% accurate information on that, but I doubt they are willing to discuss it in public because of their logical business-related reasons.
What I have personally *connected* so far is how at some point in time (early 2000's) Logitech went into cooperation with the Immersion Corporation company and took advantage of their licensed "TouchSense" software which became the main "BIOS" for their complete wheel lineup, all up to the last model.
Also, as I do remember back in the days of 90's, the *old* Thrustmaster also was one of the licensors of Immersion Co. solution, especially the "I-FORCE" force feedback technology, which I think was the *father* of the TouchSense.
However, here is where things become more complicated. During the PS/PS2/Xbox era (but mainly from 1999 to 2005) we got massive *outbreak* of devices that were using the Immersion Co. solutions, primarily the controllers with rumble and complete revolution in field of Force Feedback wheels, driven almost uniquely by Logitech/Immersion Co. that pretty much lead the whole FFB-revolution in the genre and made enormous penetration in the wider market through their wheel lineups from 2001 to 2004.
Even before the beginning of the current generation of consoles something went wrong in relations between Immersion Co. and both Sony and Microsoft - where Immersion Co. sued both of them for patent infringement for both their consoles and controllers and usage of their haptics-solutions. Microsoft resolved the dispute early as 2003 (and opened a way to launch X360 with controllers that have rumble function), while Sony was going with long court-process that lead to launch PS3 without both support for rumble and FFB in the original Sixaxis controllers - while FFB effects for all driving games and wheels were non-existant.
Sony finally settled the dispute in 2007 and since then grant the rights to present the DualShock3 controller and enable Haptic force feedback effects over HID-protocols in the PS3 console (many should remember the day when FFB got restored in the GT:HD demo in 2007 and some other games too, primarily the Formula One Championship Edition as well as all PS2 games that were compatible with 60GB PS3 backthan).
So, this story tells us the following: it is not just *basic* HID-force feedback SDK that have to be built into wheel, it also have to be "supported" by actual consoles. And for that, we have stories (examples) from both camps:
Example #1: Microsoft Licensing for Xbox/X360
Although both generation of Xbox console have USB inputs and obviously are licensed for Immersion Co. TouchSense technology usage, it is deliberate decision of Microsoft to prevent plug-n-play usage of certificated HID devices because of the profits they obtain from licensing Xbox third-party devices.
We know that all manufactures of devices (wheels included) have to pay for the special license to support X360. Regarding steering wheels it is worth noticing is how Microsoft insists for usage of the "XID" force feedback protocols for Xbox/X360 instead of much more *standardized* "HID" which is used by PS2/PS3 and all PC basically.
For a wider perspective of XID/HID problems on X360 in the early days of Fanatec's development of MS-related solutions, please check this link.
Example #2: Thrustmaster T500RS
Thrustmaster went very far and developed their own haptic-software solution, now called HEART. However, their own solution lead to the fact how every game that *wants* to support T500RS have to have a support for it through programming a code up to prerequisites of the T500RS SDK. In short, at this point, just a very small number of PS3 games supports T500RS - with almost unbelivable fact how GT5, as the *official game* of the T500RS still does not support the sequential shifting for the TH8 shifter, which still blows my mind
Example #3: Fanatec wheels
With the every Logitech wheel-model that supports TouchSense solutions from Immersion Co. (from the very old Dual Force models up to latest G27), they are all supported to PS3 console by just plug-n-play, and also with every PC (after installing the drivers).
However, for using the Fanatec models on the PS3 (as far as those I owned are concerned, I do not know for older ones), you have to manually go into the "PS3" mode in order to use it in the games (console recognizes them in PC mode just for usage in the XMB menu). Despite PS3 console recognizes Logitech models out-of-the-box without need to change any *modes*, same kind of *instant recognition* is not granted to Fanatec.
So, with examples of T500RS and Fanatec I conclude that support for hardware must be granted by manufacturer of the platform and game developer and how only Logitech models so far are being *universal* solutions for PS2/PS3/PC, while there is no solution for Xbox platform without additional licensing (also being properly made only by Fanatec).
Also, very important thing to notice is how ALL OF THE WHEELS ABOVE are made to work as "once device solutions" through only ONE USB PORT (you can opt to connect Fanatec's pedals as separate device on PC, but you can also use them with the wheel as a "router" in the console USB modes). However, it was also recently circumvented on the PS3 for TH8 so it also have something to do with the console firmware I presume.
I presume how inability (deliberate decision) to produce devices that have separate USB-connectors for every device (wheel, pedals, shifter, button box..) that all other manufacturers (those I called "PC only") pursue is the main reason of lack of their support at consoles.
Also, all above examples tells us how another obstacle *could* be related to actual firmware (SDK & software) that runs the wheels (either TouchSense, HEART of Fanatec own FW solutions) and support that some firmware(s) gets from Sony/Microsoft while others do not. But this last thing is something I can't know for sure, because I have no idea about what type of haptic-solutions (FFB firmwares) are used by either Frex, ECII or any other "PC-only" manufacturer - while I am almost 100% sure they are not using aither TouchSense, HEART or Fanatec FW.
It is a complicated situation this way or another
I think how problem with above is not in any "industry standard" but in the way how every wheel/pedals is constructed. We already witnessed that TH8 can be used with Fanatec wheels with custom-made solution, but main problem lays is way how pedal-input (signal) is being processed inside the particular hardware and delivered to HID-controller.
My tech-savy friend is currently testing something related to that and what I understood (and he's engineer so he's talking alien language as I am concerned) both Thrustmaster, Logitech and Fanatec have different way how pedals are "talking" with the wheels. And of course, each of them uses completely different type of input/output standards for connection of pedals with the wheels, which could also be deliberate decision by every of them made in order to maintain their integrity.
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- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
I can understand that with the Xbox, but how come the CSR-E can be used across all platforms using the "very different standards" and not encounter any licensing issues? I know GT5 had an update just prior to the TH8 release to accommodate 2 USB devices simultaneously, but since the T500 pedals are connected to the wheel itself, why can't the CSP's work hooked up the the wheel via an adapter from a third party source... obviously Fanatec or Thrustmaster won't do this themselves.
I just don't understand why someone swift with electronics/software can't make the proper signal conversion adapter, especially if they're running on the same resolution?
I've just wondered this for a while, because I'd love to upgrade the brakes to a high-end set and be able to play GT5.
JogoAsobi
Premium
- 2,578
......It is a complicated situation this ay or another
Thanks for the in-depth analysis of the console input peripheral realm. Really helps in understanding why things are the way they are.
I think amar212's post just prior to your latest post will shed some light on your questions.
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Indeed, thanks very much Amar for the insight on the whole licensing issues with the TouchSense technology. So from what I gather Fanatec have the upper hand as far as the licensing of all platforms? Why is Microsoft so concerned with this? Is it really for money making reasons or more as total control over Xbox input devices that third-party companies want to release.
But as far as someone trying to manipulate compatibility, would this be an illegal action? I mean there are so many "sim racing mods" that one could say cross the line as far as making money using different companies hardware.
And yes, I just can't imagine why the sequential mode isn't supported yet on GT5, it's weird especially given the G25 is able to handle both.
- 4,004
- Croatia
I think both.
And I also think it was their shortest-minded decision in absolute proportions, that ruined one complete genre on two generations of their consoles so far and drastically handicapped the commercial success of their 2 most important first-party franchises by great margin (Forza and PGR).
Just imagine the situation where both Xbox and X360 where/are compatible with the Logitech (or any HID) wheels. I can't even imagine the proportions of influence on success of the Forza series and possible repercussions on sales of Project Gotham 3 and 4 (both PGR 3 and 4 had a very decent FFB support for the Microsoft FFB wheel when that actual *toy* was considered).
I will go that far and say how Forza would be at least double as popular if enormous army of Logitech owners could use their wheels on X360, while PGR series would never be ceased and Bizzare Creations would still be alive and kicking.
I have strong hopes Microsoft will reconsider their decision regarding HID devices on the NextBox and allow for greater recognition for the driving genre on X360. Although Fanatec made unbelievable accomplishment in programming the CSR/CSRE firmwares up to standards close to HID-FFB devices for Forza 4 (it is a totally different game with Fanatec FW 715 and onwards and latest Forza and X360 updates than it was on release), other X360 driving games still suffer the lack of proper SDK support and *true-FFB*.
I am deeply convinced how all driving games on X360 would feel much better if the wheel was connected through the USB port and would allow for *normal* usage of the HID-protocol - with notable inclusion of 900-degree mode for all games without any problems (as they can on PC/PS3) which is unfortunately not the case at this moment nor at 10-year platform history (only Forza 3 and Forza 4 are games that have proper 900-degree support on X360, with Forza 3 had it in weird *entitled* way and Forza 4 still being only *natural* 900-degree game on X360 after the initial patch).
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- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Absolutely.
Yes Fanatec have really got a special agreement going on, it would hurt them if the NextBox is HID compatible... I could see Microsoft doing that actually. Might hurt Fanatec sales a little, but if they keep innovating they should be fine without exclusive Xbox FFB wheels.
Edit: Just read a bit more on your post on NeoGAF, so I understand that that XID > HID conversion could never be accomplished due to completely different systems of operation (hence the CSR-E having different "modes) but as far as using different brake systems on PS3 with T500/CSW/CSR-E on GT5, all HID compliant, could someone still make this possible? Or would Sony pursue legal action against someone who is selling such an adapter online? Same question with the ECCI or Frex Wheel, why can't these two companies release a firmware update to include PS3 compatibility?
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- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
Fantastic post Amar. I know for a fact that I did not get into Forza heavily simply because I could not use my Logitec wheels. Even when Fanatec came along I was hesitant and that was enough. The Logitec wheels are by far the best entry level option. So if you are between a die hard sim racer and someone who wants to move past a controller then they are perfect. And I would say that group is awfully large.
mykem
Premium
- 1,260
- 2,069
- Japan / Seattle
I know who he is, I've watched Fifth Gear for a while now. Regardless of who he is, you can tell he is struggling with the stupid shifter buttons that Porsche chose to use in it's first PDK cars. Had he not struggled with shifting the car the PDK would have been faster than the manual. True road/track tests prove that.
Lewis Hamilton ordering a manual transmission in his Zonda just shows that he and I have differing opinions, not that a manual is technically better or worse than a high tech F1/dual clutch transmission.
MagpieRacer
Premium
- 17,517
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
It doesn't come down to speed. It comes down to involvement and excitement.
- 1,326
- SC
What ffb will the next platforms use?... That IS the burning question for a lot of people here indeed.
- 2,069
- Japan / Seattle
Anyone else watching Thomas' Blog as well as the Fanatec stores for the pre-order to come up? I check like 5 or 6 times a day now since he said the pre-order would open in May.
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Massive thanks for amazing posts. I would say that you use word natural very loosely
Definitely a great post packed with information.
Amar do you know how much Immersion Corp. was able to squeeze out of Sony after the litigation process? In the article it didn't specify as clearly as in Microsoft's... with the statement : "The agreements consist of a $26 million payment from Microsoft for licensing rights and an equity investment, as well as a $9 million convertible debenture from Immersion with 48 months draw down rights."
I'm just curious as to how equal both parties were treated for the same technologie, or if perhaps one of them have a closer tie/agreement with Immersion now and for the future.
- 4,004
- Croatia
I think we all can be safe how HID will prevail at all PC motherboards for the future and how possibility that Sony will continue to use it for the PS4 is high as 99%.
It will be great if Microsoft will go the same way, but I think that decision will rely on what white-collars have to say regarding fees collected throughout licensing.
Of course, there is also another think special about Xbox platform (both consoles so far) that is problematic when HID (USB) is in picture. Unlike both PC and PS3, Xbox just does no tallow to have 2 input devices connected for usage under the same profile. Again, it bring the great misery to all of us Forza players who play Forza games with the wheels, because we could never be able to use wheel and controller at the same time, and crazy XID-assignement protocols for validating Xbox certified devices also prevented easy "plug-and-play" switch between controller and wheel (mostly for usage of Livery Editor or PhotoMode - and recently Autovista - which is all impossible with the wheel).
Again, I am not 100% certain about that, but I think how that policy of "one device per profile" for Xbox platform also limits the normal usage of HID protocols. It would be interesting development, no doubt.
However, if NextBox comes with HID support, it will be great time for all driving games and I hope such times will come. On the other hand, we will not know anything about it before late 2013, so I guess we can only hope at this point.
Sony paid significantly more.
After almost 5 years of process, they finally settled to pay 150 million $ - $97.2 million court judgment plus royalties totaling approx. $53.1 million. The total was partially Sony's fault because they went into continuation of the process after jury awarded 80 million $ for the first process in 2004 - it grew to more than 90 million in next 36 months.
Total is much bigger compared to MS because of the sheer amount of haptic-devices Sony sold with their PlayStation (PSone) and PlayStation 2 consoles (both generations of DualShock devices) compared to significantly lower number of similar devices MS soled with their original Xbox console. The exact numbers can't be found, but I think we're talking about hundred(s) of million of controllers - every PSone console after 1998 (or 1999, I can't remember well) had DualShock bundled with the console, same as every PS2 sold after the console launched + additional controllers that were also selling like hotcakes (just ask yourself how many PS2 controllers have you bought when console launched or count the total number of DualSock controllers bought through years). And in 2007, when dispute finally ended, Sony have sold more than one hundred million PSone and PS2 combined worldwide.
Thus the difference in totals.
In this article you can also learn how just compulsory license for ongoing period of trial from 2005 to 2007 (when PS2 was selling like crazy) costed Sony astonishing $30.6 million in total.
- 963
- Toronto, Canada
- times_fade
Wow, amazing how a patented ideas in the world of technology can lead to such hefty lawsuits.
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