Fanatec Announcements: CSW V2 Reviews Out

[Carson79]

Have they just been repairing your base? Or have they tried sending you a completely new base yet? Perhaps it's something internally with the base that's not easily detectable that is frying the motors?

They repaired the last one (this one), but I'd five new replacements before that.

 

[Mr Latte]

They repaired the last one (this one), but I'd five new replacements before that.

I bet your gf is behind it...
Not spending enough time with her over Chrimbo, lol...

I hope 7 is your lucky number matey...

 

[Carson79]

With UK law the key factor is goods must be of "Satisfactory Quality"...
Regardless of Fanatec's own TC.

In your case Mark I would persist on a full replacement not a previously repaired or re-repaired unit. It is clear that previous repairs still fail to offer "Satisfactory Quality" and in more than one way you have experienced issues.

It annoys me to read of this, personally I would demand a full replacement or refund and contact fair trading if you have any issues on their part to acknowledge your consumer rights under UK fair trading laws.

I'm too invested now for a refund with pedals and rims also. Being that its only the base that's faulty and each item is separate.
And I love the wheel, after using the elite for a few days it was an, ah this is how it's meant to feel moment when using the CSW again

 

[Carson79]

I bet your gf is behind it...
Not spending enough time with her over Chrimbo, lol...

I hope 7 is your lucky number matey...

I cooked two days straight lol She said it was the best Christmas ever

 

[Mr Latte]

Well, knew you'd be up for a joke and if anything "your attitude" regards your issues couldn't really be any better. Considering some of the RANT threads of the past, really hoping your luck turns around...

It is getting frankly rather embarrassing.

 

[RacerXX]

Yet another motor in my CSW has started to die.
Take's the count now to six! Five replacements and one returned for repair. That turned out well.......
As pointed out to me by another member before the holidays, If Fanatec know they had a bad batch of motors why are they only replacing one of them in your CSW base instead of them both?
This CSW has not been used more than a couple of hours at the very most since it was "repaired" My new gloves came and I brought it out again.
How can one person have so many bloody motors fail on them, this was getting out of hand after number three!
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

What is known, *for sure* about these failures? As in disassembled, removed parts tested to specifications and proven absolutely failed and for such and such a reason. Like a motor with visibly burnt windings taken apart and photographed or motor driver mosfets burned up and crispy like American bacon. Or motor electrical or bearing turning resistance out of specification. Specifics in other words. With so many failures of apparently the same kind it begs the question. Since just another device with no changes being loaded in place will be shaking in its boots day one.

I played with one of my CSRs and found various things to improve heat factors and expected MTBF. I'm sure the same could be done with the CSW.

Below is an example of a PC mobo with a burned mosfet component. So we know what failed, and can look into why this happened and come up with a solution. In this case the chip cooling was inadequate for the load.

Here is a generic photo showing a motor armature with a burnt area.

 

[paskowitz]

Still waiting for CS to contact me back (broke CSW base). Perhaps they partied a little too hard over new years.

 

[mrbasher]

The issue seems to be that the motor poles are not aligned properly. This would create a situation in which the motors were fighting each other. The reason these wheels feel smooth and not coggy is that the motors poles are offset enough to mask it. If properly aligned, they would be as coggy as any other wheel... G27 for instance.

I dismantled a CSR Elite that had a motor burn out. The bushes and commutator were scarred to the point that it only engaged on some of its poles.

I believe the solution is properly aligned motors. However, given the design they may not stay as such.

 

[RacerXX]

The issue seems to be that the motor poles are not aligned properly. This would create a situation in which the motors were fighting each other. The reason these wheels feel smooth and not coggy is that the motors poles are offset enough to mask it. If properly aligned, they would be as coggy as any other wheel... G27 for instance.

I dismantled a CSR Elite that had a motor burn out. The bushes and commutator were scarred to the point that it only engaged on some of its poles.

I believe the solution is properly aligned motors. However, given the design they may not stay as such.

Interesting. I hope to soup up a CSR Elite in the not too distant future. I heat managed and will soon be overvolting / amping one of my CSRs this month.

On cogging…not sure I totally agree there. A G27 has the gear action, a CSR/Porsche wheel the cogged belts. You can turn a CSR belt drive with no motor in place and feel some cogging as the teeth enter and leave the cog slots. Some of that could be reduced a few different ways but parts swaps would be involved. It's not all the motor's fault per se. The Elite uses non-cogged belts, true?

These motors live at or near stall all the time. Maybe the manufacturer just loads in a new motor and ships the device. If so this could contribute to later brush woes. Since the brushes would then never get a chance to wear into the commutator since they'd never see any sustained normal operation in the normal design-for RPM ranges. It would make sense to break in these motors before use by free revving them in each direction for awhile. And then spray cleaning out any gunk. That way the brushes would better match the commutator surface which helps longevity and can increase or steady output.

The very similar motors in Logitechs that sit awhile get brush dust clogging up the commutator gaps. This dust is conductive and is not a good thing. It can greatly drop motor electrical resistance hence contribute to killing off the mosfets on the circuit board besides affecting motor operation.

 

[FMW]

Interesting. I hope to soup up a CSR Elite in the not too distant future. I heat managed and will soon be overvolting / amping one of my CSRs this month.

On cogging…not sure I totally agree there. A G27 has the gear action, a CSR/Porsche wheel the cogged belts. You can turn a CSR belt drive with no motor in place and feel some cogging as the teeth enter and leave the cog slots. Some of that could be reduced a few different ways but parts swaps would be involved. It's not all the motor's fault per se. The Elite uses non-cogged belts, true?

These motors live at or near stall all the time. Maybe the manufacturer just loads in a new motor and ships the device. If so this could contribute to later brush woes. Since the brushes would then never get a chance to wear into the commutator since they'd never see any sustained normal operation in the normal design-for RPM ranges. It would make sense to break in these motors before use by free revving them in each direction for awhile. And then spray cleaning out any gunk. That way the brushes would better match the commutator surface which helps longevity and can increase or steady output.

The very similar motors in Logitechs that sit awhile get brush dust clogging up the commutator gaps. This dust is conductive and is not a good thing. It can greatly drop motor electrical resistance hence contribute to killing off the mosfets on the circuit board besides affecting motor operation.

I have yet to open my CSW to check, but has anyone looked at what OEM motor Fanatec is using in the CSW or CSR base? Mabuchi? Johnson? These are the two most commonly used motors for tons of applications and the failure rate is extremely small. We use them for our products so I was just curious if anyone has looked =)

 

[RacerXX]

I have yet to open my CSW to check, but has anyone looked at what OEM motor Fanatec is using in the CSW or CSR base? Mabuchi? Johnson? These are the two most commonly used motors for tons of applications and the failure rate is extremely small. We use them for our products so I was just curious if anyone has looked =)

They're Mabuchis per Fanatec. They are powerful lil guys aren't they? The model number (which you can decipher on Mabuchi's site) is RS-555PH-22130. CSRs and Elites may share the same basic motor since an Elite interior shot shows the same dual shaft as a CSR. The CSR needs that to drive the on-motor optical position sensor. Whereas the Elite does not use that shaft for any purpose as it uses a steering shaft located position sensor.

On my comment about brush debris…here is an example. Not too bad really. See image below.

What I did was take a CSR motor and remove the optical sensor, clip on heat sink, thermal grease (under the heat sink), and flux sleeve. I placed the motor into a glass bowl filled with rubbing alcohol + water. Then the motor was operated in each direction for about 5 minutes via a 12 volt battery and alligator clips. A stream of fluid comes out of the side vents and with it the debris you can see around the outside of the bowl and at the bottom. This motor works fine and is about a year old.

 

[mrbasher]

Racerxx,

I have one of the motors right here and turning it with no load produces cogging and not due to the belts. Turn the one you have there, there is cogging inherent in most all DC motors as the poles come into alignment.

There should be very little feel to the belts when turning and you should not feel the teeth engaging. You took the motor out and turned the rim? So only one belt was connected then? If you can something is either adjusted incorrectly or the wrong pulley/belt combination is being used. There should be a smooth transition of the teeth meshing. When gears are aligned incorrectly, generally too tightly, you can feel this. When they are properly meshed, you feel nothing.

A simple way to experience the cogging is to connect your wheel to something and turn the rotation down to 90 degrees. Turn it past the fake bump stop, then turn slowly. You will feel each cog and hear the motor, it's not the belts You will barely feel cogging without powering the wheel. It's only when power is applied and you are moving the wheel against force feedback that it becomes apparent.

As for the CSR Elite and CSW, I'd have to dig out the photos I took, but from the one I have handy, it does not look to have teeth. This is why I stated that you may not be able to keep them aligned. When the motors fail in these, it's always one of them. One is bound to be the weaker of the two and will at some point fail.

If the motors are attempting to reach their respective poles and cannot, even at rest, they will constantly be at odds with each other. They are not only fighting against the user, but one another. As well, because the sensor is no longer on the motor but the main hub, the wheel electronics do not realize this is even happening.

 

[mrbasher]

As well, alone the motors work just fine. It's when they are combined in the CSR Elite and CSW that they have issues.

A friend of mine is now on his 3rd CSR Elite due to this issue.

 

[HoiHman]

That's shocking news Mrbasher.

If your right we are dealing with a MAJOR design flaw. Your explanation makes sense to me.
This means that almost every CSW or CSR Elite wheel will start having issues in time.

That really sucks since i have both

 

[paskowitz]

That's shocking news Mrbasher.

If your right we are dealing with a MAJOR design flaw. Your explanation makes sense to me.
This means that almost every CSW or CSR Elite wheel will start having issues in time.

That really sucks since i have both

Reading all this explains how my beta csw base tanked. It suddenly lost a lot of power and began to cog and grind. Fanatec later told me one of the motor blew.

Definitely something Fanatec should look into.

 

[mrbasher]

Another issue could be that the motors are being run from a single driver and mosfet. If I remember correctly, and sorry this is off the top of my head, the motors are in parallel and both connected to the same driver. This is not ideal. When running motors that are directly coupled and in parallel, they should be powered from their own respective sources. If they are not they will act upon each other, often with negative results.

I think the best bet for longevity is to align the armatures on the motors. This would not be a simple task, but it's possible.

 

[Raitziger]

I think CSW improved cooling so I assume problems come with power electronics. Meaning over voltage(for motor) and over current for the mosfets(or other type switches). Brushless motors (AC motors) would be the best solution and permanent magnet synchronous motors would suit best the quick high torque needs of FFB wheel. Also one big motor seems to be working with well at least with T500.

 

[RacerXX]

Another issue could be that the motors are being run from a single driver and mosfet. If I remember correctly, and sorry this is off the top of my head, the motors are in parallel and both connected to the same driver. This is not ideal. When running motors that are directly coupled and in parallel, they should be powered from their own respective sources. If they are not they will act upon each other, often with negative results.

I think the best bet for longevity is to align the armatures on the motors. This would not be a simple task, but it's possible.

Well if you wanted to keep the poles ideally positioned with respect to one another, this could be done very easily. Since the pair of motors have the same dual shafts as the single motor wheels, that shaft could be put to use! Just add a cog and belt drive them to each other. That would certainly keep the motors synced to one another. However some cogging would occur…would it be noticeable? I'd prefer separate drives and would add one if I get an Elite. I'm already beefing up the H-Bridge in the CSR to allow for hot rodding. The stock mosfets now run at just over room temperature. They used to get too hot to touch pretty quickly.

 

[RacerXX]

Racerxx,

I have one of the motors right here and turning it with no load produces cogging and not due to the belts. Turn the one you have there, there is cogging inherent in most all DC motors as the poles come into alignment.

There should be very little feel to the belts when turning and you should not feel the teeth engaging. You took the motor out and turned the rim? So only one belt was connected then? If you can something is either adjusted incorrectly or the wrong pulley/belt combination is being used. There should be a smooth transition of the teeth meshing. When gears are aligned incorrectly, generally too tightly, you can feel this. When they are properly meshed, you feel nothing.

A simple way to experience the cogging is to connect your wheel to something and turn the rotation down to 90 degrees. Turn it past the fake bump stop, then turn slowly. You will feel each cog and hear the motor, it's not the belts You will barely feel cogging without powering the wheel. It's only when power is applied and you are moving the wheel against force feedback that it becomes apparent.

As for the CSR Elite and CSW, I'd have to dig out the photos I took, but from the one I have handy, it does not look to have teeth. This is why I stated that you may not be able to keep them aligned. When the motors fail in these, it's always one of them. One is bound to be the weaker of the two and will at some point fail.

If the motors are attempting to reach their respective poles and cannot, even at rest, they will constantly be at odds with each other. They are not only fighting against the user, but one another. As well, because the sensor is no longer on the motor but the main hub, the wheel electronics do not realize this is even happening.

Both belts connected…idle cog replacing the motor for fun. Gates (maker of the CSR belts) themselves mention that their belts are not without that effect.

These are inexpensive 5 pole brushed motors. A larger motor with more poles and venting and etc….well that would cost… I read about a 20 something pole motor in this size range that cost about 10-20 times as much as the Mabuchis. Betcha they are smooth though.

The Mabuchi motor sample I photographed does not have a great deal of noticeable cogging when you turn it by hand. I'll have to try this with the other one if/when I redo that wheel.

 

[RacerXX]

That's shocking news Mrbasher.

If your right we are dealing with a MAJOR design flaw. Your explanation makes sense to me.
This means that almost every CSW or CSR Elite wheel will start having issues in time.

That really sucks since i have both

I wouldn't be overly concerned just yet. Remember that Logitech's G25 and G27 use similar dual motors wired in parallel to one motor controller. In fact the G27 and possibly the G25 use the exact *same* two IR SO-8 mosfets that CSRs use as their drivers. They are run less hard though, just look at the power supply current rating.

I have not had a chance to examine a CSR Elite or CSW in depth yet. I would certainly look into the strategy used and see if I thought some improvements could be made. However everything in the world could be tweaked, where do you stop.

Logitechs use gear drives which would keep the motors fairly synced, inherently. But when motors are swapped on those wheels there is no "don't cross the streams" Ghostbuster type warning about aligning the motor poles according to the star charts.

Now this would not affect the CSW since it cannot do XBox…but the Elite and CSR can and there is a thing to watch out for there. On Forza 4 and possibly Forza Horizon you can occasionally have the wheel turn full left all by itself. Then it sits there against the stop mechanism trying to turn with full force. This is harmful! That's why some say don't leave the thing unattended.

That LH turn thing kicks in during some of the menu periods in the game and might be a Forza / XBox live thing I am not sure. When the motor locks out full left, it is completely stopped and the portion of the coils in use will fry if this goes on for long. Not great for brushes or the mosfets either.

Over time I hope that spare parts become more readily available. For instance having a few Mabuchi motors, a few load cells, and a few belts sitting on a shelf would be reassuring. I think the load cells run about $15 and live longer if you keep the loads down…it appears that they metal fatigue out when they see heavy loads. I bought some belts for 8 dollars. Motors shouldn't be much based on other Mabuchi prices. Racecars need love, care, and attention and so do sim rigs.

 

[Snotgobbler]

Anyone here hear any news on LATEST timing for the Elite Formula rim?

 

[Carson79]

Well, knew you'd be up for a joke and if anything "your attitude" regards your issues couldn't really be any better. Considering some of the RANT threads of the past, really hoping your luck turns around...

It is getting frankly rather embarrassing.

Thanks Rodney.
I see no point in blasting Fanatec or ranting on. But after having had so many repeat issues I think it's only fair to keep the community informed. Many members ask for advice about how hardware performs, which is better etc? And they should be aware before they decide to part with their hard earned cash.
I will say when working the CSW is brilliant and I'd hve it over any other wheel.

Also how many members use the Abs on the wheel setting? If you don't and you get the rumble through the wheel with the FFB setting when accelerating you probably won't even notice the cogging/grinding feeling at all!
Be interested to know if anyone with the CSW notices any difference with using the ABS?

 

[LogiForce]

All this talk about motors... good stuff! I can use this for Project C.A.R.E. ( http://projectcare.info ) for sure. A project I've started to improve our racing experience by building our own and sharing knowledge and so on.

Sad to hear so many issues though. My CSW is still going strong. Still the Beta wheel that I am on. Maybe the electronics are different? Dunno.
I hope to see the issues get sorted for everyone though, permanently that is. There is nothing more frustrating than equipment failing on you multiple times.

 

[G219]

I just today saw some Mabuchi motors (RS 555) in the Parts Express catalog for about $3 each.

 

[Fanatec...]

That's shocking news Mrbasher.

If your right we are dealing with a MAJOR design flaw. Your explanation makes sense to me.
This means that almost every CSW or CSR Elite wheel will start having issues in time.

That really sucks since i have both

It is not a design flaw. It was a batch of motors which had a high defective rate. I can confirm that there was this We can now replace those motors which are manufactured well and will last for sure.

 

[Snotgobbler]

"Anyone here hear any news on LATEST timing for the Elite Formula rim?"

Well Thomas does, obviously, but anyone that might actually tell me!

 

[novadave]

The issue seems to be that the motor poles are not aligned properly. This would create a situation in which the motors were fighting each other. The reason these wheels feel smooth and not coggy is that the motors poles are offset enough to mask it. If properly aligned, they would be as coggy as any other wheel... G27 for instance.

I dismantled a CSR Elite that had a motor burn out. The bushes and commutator were scarred to the point that it only engaged on some of its poles.

I believe the solution is properly aligned motors. However, given the design they may not stay as such.

I agree Basher.
one other effect that comes into play is the issue of heat buildup in the CSW/CSR Elite motors.
we know that they use a v-groove drive system and without the proper belt tension there would be belt slippage. if the slippage is not dealt with the result is the drive wheel spinning in the belts - this in turn produces heat and this heat is transfered directly through the motor armature shaft which results in a overheated motor.
it is kind of a win/loose situation with this drive system. - running with the belts loose results in slippage - running with the belts too tight results in an excessive radial load on the armature shaft and this load will result in a higher than acceptable friction increase on the motor shaft bushings and therefor added heat in the motor.

 

[mrbasher]

Instead of further attempting to explain what is going on and why, here. I encourage anyone that wants the information to do some reading up on load sharing between DC motors. There's quite a lot of information out there if you do some looking.

Fanatec,

I hope you are right. Only time will tell I suppose. Maybe you can confirm for someone like Carson or my friend whether or not their replacement wheels will have these new motors. People will remember you have said this and if the wheels continue to have these issues, they will wonder if you are telling the truth or not. Just a sad fact. Or, you can leave the thread and only come back when you feel the need to defend or promote your product again. Your choice of course...

 

[mrbasher]

Fanatec,

Maybe this would make it simpler for people...

Please state the date on or after which all CSW or CSR Elite wheels sold or replaced contain motors from this new batch that will not fail.

As well, how many wheels could potentially be impacted by this bad batch of motors?

I'm sure there are quite a few people that would like to know this information.

Thank you.

 

[paskowitz]

Contacted CS over the phone. Issue handled immediately. Replacement CSW base and replacement CSPv2 throttle sensor on the way. Pretty easy.

For those that have trouble contacting Fanatec CS over email, I have yet to have a phone call not solve my problem.