Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

[LeMansAid]

So how easy is it to get an RC damper, and use it for the Brake? How would you fashion it, and what RC Damper should I use?

I am not sure if I will ultimately go with a different way, but I wanted to do something fairly non-committal and simple for mine initially. I used a 120mm rc shock that I spanned between the top hole on the side of the brake arm and where the load cell's grub screw fits. As it turns out, most of what I needed came with the dampers that I bought and the thread for that grub screw matched one of the screws in the damper pack. That screw now doubles as a damper and load cell securer.

I too was messing around with some clutch ideas, but time is not always my friend unfortunately.

 

[Crispy]

I am not sure if I will ultimately go with a different way, but I wanted to do something fairly non-committal and simple for mine initially. I used a 120mm rc shock that I spanned between the top hole on the side of the brake arm and where the load cell's grub screw fits. As it turns out, most of what I needed came with the dampers that I bought and the thread for that grub screw matched one of the screws in the damper pack. That screw now doubles as a damper and load cell securer.

I too was messing around with some clutch ideas, but time is not always my friend unfortunately.

Could you post some pictures of how you have it set up? If you don't mind. It seems fairly simple though, do the holes on the shocks on where to mount match up with the holes for the brake pegs?

Something like this?

 

[ccjcc81]

Hey guys,

I just bought a CSW, and with rFactor and the HistorX mod I am experiencing FFB fade. Google found this thread, and I read about 5 pages of it, and immediately suffered a severely debilitating bout of ADD. I almost didn't survive.

I read enough here to see that the stock motors heat up, and need cooling to maintain FFB. I see that a lot of you guys have much more technical knowledge than I will ever hope to acquire, and a lot of this thread is about motors. I, however, simply want to try to eliminate my FFB fade by upgrading the fan. I haven't taken the wheel apart, but from the outside it looks like it's just a pc cooling fan in there. Do you guys know what size it is, and if it can be changed out? If so, do you have a recommendation? Noise is no issue, I don't care if it sounds like a vacuum cleaner. I just want some decent FFB. The stock motors seem to be able to produce more FFB than I will need, but it is not sustainable.

Does the stock fan run at 100% all the time, or does it run less depending on heat? Does the fan connect via a regular PC fan connector? Can the board that it plugs into handle a stronger fan? Is there room in there for one of these: (120mm, 4000rpm, 150cfm)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835213006

I build my computers, so if it's anything like installing a PC fan, I can handle it, but I definitely don't want to open my CSW up and void the warranty until I get some feedback from those of you who know.

I experience fade after about 15 minutes when using drifty cars at short tracks, most notably (so far) the HistorX Lotus Ford Cortina on Hockenhiem short. rFactor FFB is 100%, CSW FF=100, For=100. I would like to be able to bump the FFB up because I like it heavy, but it can't even handle 100%.

Don't seem to be having problems with other sims/mods, but I run in a HistorX league, so that's pretty much all I run.

Thanks guys, have a great day.

 

[eKretz]

A fan change won't mitigate the problem. First thing you should do is reverse the fans so the one closest to the motors is blowing directly across the motor heat sink rather than trying to suck air from it. Better fans might help slightly, but being that the motors are of the fully enclosed variety and cheap, it will only help so much. I have been experimenting with airflow mods and cutting open the motor cans and adding a direct cooling duct right through the motors with some success. You could also try water cooling as another poster has had some good results with that also.

 

[ccjcc81]

Thank you for your reply. Sheesh. I think I'd rather send it back then, I don't have the wherewithal or patience for those solutions...

I guess I'll try the Thrustmaster and see if it suffers less from FFB fade.

Thank you eKretz, and thanks anyway guys, have a good one.

 

[eKretz]

The same thing has been reported with the T500 when users push it's force feedback to 100% and beyond for extended periods. I think it will do better than the Fanatec though. I am hoping to unveil a set of motors soon that will solve the problem of heat fade.

 

[Crispy]

Okay, so I am planning on purchasing this kit. Would this be a good mod to improve brake feel?

I'd also like to find a 30mm rod to place in the brake to reduce the throw. Anybody know of anywhere to find a rod that will work? I would like to reduce the throw of CSP Brake in a similar fashion as the 30mm Rod from the CSP Tuning Kit.

Now for the Clutch, what kind of Spring could work to increase resistance? Same with the Gas?

With the Clutch, does anyone have a guide to make a regressive clutch mod similar to the V2's? I would greatly appreciate it if someone had one, or at least could tell me how to do it.

Also anyone know where to find inexpensive steering wheels? I'm looking for one in the style of the OMP Super Quadro

Thanks in advance!

 

[RacerXX]

delete

 

[eKretz]

Been wondering where you went, been quiet.

 

[RacerXX]

delete

 

[ccjcc81]

I am so pissed at Fanatec. They declined my return, even thought I only had possession of the wheel for 14 days, not including the time it was in transit to and from Fanatec, and being repaired. So, I guess I'll pour through this 40 page thread and see what solutions you guys have come up with.

Got popcorn? Sit back and enjoy this drama.


My first letter to Fanatec:

Hello,

I regret to inform you that the CSW wheel cannot not meet my needs, and therefore I must return it. Please send an RMA number, and I’ll ship it out tomorrow.

I sent the wheel in for repair because the BMW rim is very wobbly, and will only stabilize when I turn the set screw down as hard as I can. I have stripped 2 set screws out. Also, and more importantly, the wheel base loses FFB after a very, very short time of racing. The Fanatec technician that repaired the wheel said that his/her wheel fit snuggly on my base, so no repair was made to the wheel shaft. The technician also replaced the FFB motor.

I received the wheel back, and immediately noticed that my wheel still wobbles incessantly, and if I don’t use the set screw, it makes a horrible rattling when racing. Also, the wheel loses FFB after about 15 minutes of racing. The FFB drops to about 40%-50%. Then after approximately 8 minutes, the FFB will come back to about 80%. Then it will drop again after about 10 minutes, and this cycle continues, with less time between changes each time. When I stop using the wheel for an extended period of time, and then use it again, initially I get full FFB. Then the same thing happens again.

I use rFactor, and the HistorX mod specifically, and use 900 degrees rotation. The in game FFB level is 100%, and the wheel settings are FF=100, For=100, Spr=0, Dpr=0.

I’m assuming that the FFB motor heats up as I use it, and the wheel software reduces power to the motor to stabilize the heat. I’m also assuming that the fan in the base is not powerful enough to sufficiently cool the motor. Whatever the cause, the base cannot sustainably provide 100% FFB. Actually, I would rather be able to use the wheel at For=150, but the base cannot provide For=100, and therefore does not meet my needs.

Thanks,

Chris


Fanatec's response:

Hello,

thank you for your response.

Unfortunately I am not allowed to agree with a refund or a return of the wheel at the moment because our company has the right to subsequent improvement free of charge during the warranty period.

The problem that you´ve experienced regarding the force feedback is definitely depending on the game.

rFactor and especially mods for the game send very strong force feedback information to the wheel.

I would recommend to lower the settings in the wheel to avoid the wheel to overheat.

Regarding the issue that you´ve experienced with the rim I would like to offer you to send out a second replacement rim.

Unfortunately my hands bound regarding the return or the refund.

Thank you for your understanding.

Please let me know if you agree with my solution of replacing the rim.

Thank you.



My second letter, which they did not respond to at all:


Hello Fanatec,

Fanatec’s response claiming that rFactor sends strong FFB signals to this wheel, therefore overheating the motor, doesn’t make any sense to me. Even if it were true, that just reinforces my desire to return this wheel. I need a wheel that will not overheat when playing my sim. My old Fanatec GT3RS V2, before the shaft snapped, handled rFactor’s force just fine, as does my Logitech DFGT.

Fanatec’s suggestion to turn the wheel FFB effects down is not acceptable. Fanatec might as well have told me “only play sims that don’t have FFB.” I bought this $730 wheel because I wanted MORE FFB. I want to turn the FFB up, not down. I want to run this wheel at 150%, but the wheel overheats at 100%. Fanatec suggests that rFactor sends “very strong FFB information to the wheel,” and that’s why it’s overheating. That’s why I play rFactor, because it has good FFB. I bought the wheel because it claims to be able to push 400% FFB, but in truth it can’t sustain 100% for 15 minutes.

I’ve purchased many Fanatec products in the past, and will potentially in the future. Throughout this ordeal, I’ve found Fanatec’s customer service to be absolutely phenomenal. Until this. Is Fanatec really going to deny me a refund, and alienate a customer, after all the problems I’ve had with this wheel?

The day that I sent Fanatec the return request, I had the wheel in my possession for only 14 days, excluding the days that the wheel was in transit to and from Fanatec, and the days that it underwent repair. Fanatec’s website clearly states that I have 14 days to decide to return the wheel. I returned the wheel for repair on the 13th day of possession, received it weeks later after a new FFB motor was installed, only to discovered that the problem had not been solved, and I then requested a refund on my 14th day of possession.

This is an expensive wheel. I am not a wealthy person. $730 + shipping is a whole lot of money for me. I was surprised at the cost of this wheel, but decided to buy it anyway, hoping that the quality would reflect the price. It doesn’t. So now Fanatec has told me that, despite the fact that FFB lasts only 15 minutes with this wheel, I have to keep it. A $730 paperweight. The better part of $1000 wasted on a product that is flawed. Imagine my frustration. $730.

It’s obvious that there is a design flaw with this wheel. The internet is full of stories about the FFB motors overheating on this wheel. I wish I had found these stories before I spent $730 on this wheel. Fanatec needs to stop alienating customers and do something to solve the problem. Blaming the software doesn’t make sense. This $730 wheel has the ability to multiply the FFB to %400. However, the wheel can only sustain %100FFB for 15 minutes of racing. Therefore I would probably have to run the wheel at 50% at all times to keep the motor from overheating. So to recap, the wheel has the capability to run at 400% FFB, but can only run at 50% without overheating. See the flaw?

I’m appalled that Fanatec has avoided responsibility and is blaming software for a hardware issue. This software has been in use since 2005, and will probably continue to see use for many, many years to come. The 2 leagues I run the software with have enough participants to overflow their servers every week, and they are but two of many. Fanatec’s response begs the question; what PC simulator did Fanatec test this $730 wheel with while it was in development?

Regarding the excessive wheel wobble, I appreciate Fanatec’s offer to send yet another BMW rim, but Fanatec has already sent a replacement wheel, and it fit no better than the first one. I really just want a refund.

So, I hereby formally request a refund. I bought the wheel, the BMW rim wobbles incessantly, and the FFB died after 5 minutes of racing. I sent the wheel in for repairs, and when I received it back, it still suffered from the exact same problems that I sent it in for. My first refund request was within the 14 day refund window as stated on your website. Fanatec declined it, siting that rFactor’s FFB is too strong and I must turn the FFB down on the wheel to a setting lower than its default; 100%. I do not accept this resolution, with the opinion that a $730 wheel should handle any sim, as my $120 Logitech can. This is my second attempt to get Fanatec to honor its 14 day refund policy.

Thanks,

Chris



I am so. freaking. pissed at Fanatec. I almost convinced myself to post these letters on every sim racing forum of which I am a member, and even those of which I'm not. I almost decided to google search every review of the CSW and leave a copy of these letters in their comments sections too. I waited a few days and cooled down, but I couldn't resist posting it here, where it actually does no one any good at all, because if you're reading this particular thread, you've probably already purchased the wheel and obviously know that it has bad fade.

$730 + shipping for FFB that lasts 15 minutes. Sheesh.

 

[eKretz]

I agree that the FFB fade issue sucks, but it seems that most people are so unobservant that they don't even notice the fade. This is probably where most of the problem lies. I am in the process of getting some new motors developed that should help partially or completely solve the problem, so at least there will hopefully be an option for people to improve the wheel themselves, since Fanatec as a company doesn't seem interested in making any changes yet.

Even with the fade I find the wheel quite enjoyable to use, and even though I also prefer higher FFB levels, sometimes I turn mine down to avoid the fading and it's still enjoyable. I have non-stock motors in my wheel now and it works great, but they also still have heat issues that need to be worked around.

 

[Crispy]

Is it only the Fanatec CSW that has this fade problem? I have a CSR Elite and haven't noticed any Fading present. Though both the models I had were Beta or first run. I also haven't played any PC sims yet so that might be a factor.

 

[eKretz]

No, both have the same motors, thus the same issue. I had a CSR Elite before I switched to the CSW and it definitely had fade issues also. As I said, many either don't notice it or they run their FFB lower, so the fade isn't as bad. If you drop in-game FFB to 60% or so it is not so noticeable.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I have a CSR Elite and haven't noticed any Fading present.

I have a CSR-E and I have fading as the wheel gets to temperature. Once it reach a certain level, it is constant.
I do not see it as an issue, it is the nature of the beast. I love my CSR-E.

 

[LeMansAid]

I am so pissed at Fanatec....

It is quite simple in a way: Any issues outside of a standard, normally functioning product are their responsibility (wheel wobble). Any issues that are inherent within the default product performance are your responsibility (ffb fade).

I have owned two Fanatec wheels, and by default they both had ffb fade. I remember that it was also documented in their manual. I would never expect to be able to return a product just because I did not discover a certain caveat in my researching. The information is obviously available, considering where I am typing at the moment. With such an expensive purchase, I would be researching big time (I do need to go to obsessives anonymous admittedly). If they promoted "zero ffb fade" that would be different.

Sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes we are just plain disappointed. That's life unfortunately. I do concede that there are different cultures with returns in other countries though.

I say, get the rim sorted and make the best of it.

 

[ccjcc81]

Thank you LeMansAid, that is very insightful, and well said. You have almost convinced me, and I am so very close to agreeing that this whole situation is my fault, but for one tiny little thing. I didn't see a single mention of "FFB fade" in any of the dozens of Fanatec CSW review videos I found on YouTube, nor did I read a single instance of the phrase "FFB fade" in any of the countless reviews I read before my purchase. Strangely enough, I didn't even know it existed until I experienced it firsthand. If you can find one instance of the phrase "FFB fade" in any of the Google or YouTube results for a search of "Fanatec CSW review," then I will be utterly convinced that I should have no excuse for never having heard the phrase "FFB fade," and therefore not even knowing that such a thing existed. Oddly enough, in my culture's Google, if I search for "FFB fade," there is only one hit about "FFB fade," and it is number 41 in the list of results, and it links to this very thread. There are no others. I would be eternally indebted to you if you would teach me how I could have found out about "FFB fade" having never known it existed. Then if you could send me a link to your culture's Google, I would be better suited to buy things in the future. In the mean time, Fanatec does state on their website:

"Our guarantee of satisfaction is unconditional. If you are not 100% satisfied with your order, you can return your purchase(s) made at www.fanatec.com within 14 days from receipt."

Now if I can just convince Fanatec that the days that the wheel was in transit to and from their repair facility, and the days it spent undergoing repair don't count towards that 14 days, I can put this whole situation behind me.

 

[ccjcc81]

Not to clutter this thread with my personal drama, but Fanatec has decided to allow the return of the CSW. I had to go through PayPal to get them to do it, as was recommended by a very helpful fellow to whom I owe a debt of gratitude. I will be sending it back today. Thanks for all your help guys.

I will eagerly await the CSW V2, and if the fade issues are resolved, maybe I will buy it when available. I'll be sure to check this thread, and better yet, send direct PM's to certain people in this forum before I do so, to see if any information about FFB fade can be found. Lesson learned. Here's to waiting patiently.

 

[LeMansAid]

That's good news for you. So what happens with these "used" products? I know that if I bought a CSW I would want it completely unused.

By the way, after your response to me, there is now many more google hits to be discovered when searching for "ffb fade". Also, thank you for keeping the ways of the snide alive. I am actually being serious.

 

[presidente001]

Dear friends

I live in Brazil and I'm following the thread from the beginning. I found it very interesting that modification of the motors. I believe my CSW is the first version since it only has a fan on the right side. On the back cover of plastic, is written V.1.2. My CSW presents two problems:

The first is precisely this loss of strength after a certain time playing.

The second problem is that after the motors warms, it begins to exit a burning smell inside the CSW. By opening it I saw that burning smell comes from the contact of the belt with the warm motor. Anyone else noticed this problem? This problem happens mostly playing GT5 with setting FF 10 and other settings of the steering wheel at level 100.

When I measured the temperature in these conditions, the highest temperature observed was 63 º c., Very hot.

I decided to put 3 fans 12v with separate power blowing at 100%, one of 8cm from the left blowing in the csw, another small fan blowing through the center of the sinks and the third on the right expelling hot air.

To make a good test I put FORCES value in 250. With this setting the temperature stabilized at 48.5 º C, good results but I can still the loss Forcefeedback yet. I'm thinking of disconnecting the temperature sensor to see what happens. Can I do this? What do you think? Sorry for my bad English.

thank you

 

[eKretz]

I am running my modded wheel with non-stock motors with temp sensor disconnected. Be forewarned that if you don't monitor the temperatures closely you can easily cook your motors and permanently weaken their magnetic fields. Also, you are cooling only the outside of the motor can. While every bit helps, the inside of your motor is still going to be much hotter than the can, so don't think that because the can is a bit cooler it will mean you can run higher FFB settings without risk of damage. In my testing and temp monitoring, I've found that the motors are the area that need the most help with cooling. The drive FETs are actually not that badly stressed. RacerXX has had some good success with using copper tubing wrapped around his motor cans and running water through to cool his motors, I might suggest this approach to you if you want to make some better improvement to your cooling.

 

[presidente001]

I am running my modded wheel with non-stock motors with temp sensor disconnected. Be forewarned that if you don't monitor the temperatures closely you can easily cook your motors and permanently weaken their magnetic fields. Also, you are cooling only the outside of the motor can. While every bit helps, the inside of your motor is still going to be much hotter than the can, so don't think that because the can is a bit cooler it will mean you can run higher FFB settings without risk of damage. In my testing and temp monitoring, I've found that the motors are the area that need the most help with cooling. The drive FETs are actually not that badly stressed. RacerXX has had some good success with using copper tubing wrapped around his motor cans and running water through to cool his motors, I might suggest this approach to you if you want to make some better improvement to your cooling.

Okay! Thank you for your help! 'm really interested in improving cooling. What about the smell of burning out the motor belt getting hot? Any suggestions?

To see the temperature of the engine I installed a digital thermometer with a probe inserted in the sinks as image below. So now gives to get a sense of how things are going. I I'm watching all the time.

eKretz, do you have any other suggestion of motors that I can use in my CSW? Here in Brazil is very difficult to get a Bühler, does not have to sell here.

Thx !!

 

[RacerXX]

delete

 

[presidente001]

I got rid of that long ago, found a much better way which is quite novel and simple. However for an easy sure-thing cooling most can do, water filled copper is simple and cheap to implement.

Do you have pictures to show us? I was very interested to see the result! THX !!!

 

[presidente001]

By de way... the original Fanabuchi is 12v or 24v?

 

[eKretz]

The original motors run at 24V. You should be able to get pretty much any motors you want if you order using the Internet. The main things to look out for are that the motors run on 24VDC, pull about the same stall amperage as stock motors (about 2.5A each for 5 total, or you'll need a different power supply) and that they run a similar RPM as the stock motors (right around 4200 RPM at 24VDC). If possible, get a torque spec before ordering or you won't know if the motors are stronger or weaker than stock. I'm not sure the burning smell is coming from the belt. It's much more likely coming from the motors.

If you want to wait a while, I have a guy working on making some motors that should be just about as good as it will get for a drop-in motor.

 

[presidente001]

Have you any idea of ​​when will be ready? I just disassemble everything now and saw that the lower motor is faulty. It is much weaker than the other and is burning smell. I really need another motor. I think that toasted!!

Would you tell me the complete specifications of the stock motor then I can search anything here. I searched datasheet RS-555 24v but not found. I can easily get a pair of new motors of the logitech G27. Do these motors would be good? It would be an interesting alternative? Here in this forum at the end of the page are the motors specifications

https://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=66336

 

[posimosh]

RE: FFB Fade..
I too have a CSR Elite and it doesn't really fade, it plateaus. I run mid-high FFB (Replicating the no Power Steering racecars that I have had the privilege to drive on various track days). Unless you are trying to replicate the steering in a Semi-truck with the Power-Steering pump on its way out, there is really no reason to have any fade problems of consequence. I mean, I could write a mode to rF that would smoke any wheel, but it wouldn't make the FFB accurate.
Having had a few other relatively nice units that did noticably fade in the past, I have to say that the CSW/CSR elite cooling solution is the best that I have seen. Just my 2¢

 

[eKretz]

Hmm, I'll have to disagree about that. Racing cars that I've driven without power steering do range in steering torque, but the stock CSW certainly can't provide the level of force that a real car can by a long shot. It's not the constant force that it has the most trouble with, it's the transient forces, and these are the ones that make the biggest difference in realism, IMO. Things like rapid twitching of the wheel during traction loss in high-g corners with small bumps for instance. Even torque loading in high-g turns could be much better.

Again, if you haven't noticed the fade, good for you. It is there though, if you push the wheel harder. It's as simple as that. If you are running lighter FFB, either in-game or in the wheel's tuning menu, it won't be as noticeable. Check it with a scale against the soft stops when the wheel's cold and after you've raced for an hour straight. You will see the difference. Some people aren't as sensitive or observant of the fade as others also.

 

[LeMansAid]

Similar to most people seemingly believing that there is no input lag on their digital display of choice. It's there for sure, but do you notice it?

I'd love to see the day when we have beastly rip yer arms off ffb, coupled with even greater subtlety and fidelity. The noise gate style (as I think of it) system that RXX mooted is a very interesting idea. Having a certain tolerance level whereby low drag is enabled only when high torque is not required, which gives way when high ffb torque is engaged. With the way that these things are currently designed, I think that will be the key to getting the closest to the best of both worlds scenario.