Female Racing World Championship?

[Tired Tyres]

I don't think it is the first time you heard that...because I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.



I really think I'm stating the obvious here when I say that the more fit a driver is, the greater advantage they will have. Like any other sport, the fitness levels don't just completely plateau once they qualify for a certain class of competition. Formula One drivers wouldn't undergo extensive physical training if this wasn't the case.



It is not unheard of to see 17/18 year olds in premier divisions of professional male sports. They aren't going to be at their physical peak, but certainly as elite sportspeople would already be physically superior than elite sportswomen in their prime.

Excellent reasoning, can't wait to hear more. 👍

You can state the so called obvious all you like. You are wrong. Totally wrong and you will never be anything but wrong. You are continually saying that you think that some requirement in one sport means something for a different sport.

Other sports are just that. Other sports. They have nothing to do with motor racing.

Driving a racing car is not an athletic sport. End of. There is no reason at all why a woman cannot have the level of fitness required to compete in motor sport.

 

[Pseudopod]

I don't think most male racing drivers are anywhere near the point of fitness where it becomes practically impossible for a female to keep up. Females might end up with a slightly higher body weight assuming they have roughly the same height and fitness level, just because the minimum amount of body fat for healthy female is higher than for a healthy male. This might amount to maybe 10 extra pounds. However, realistically, most females are going to be slightly shorter and therefore a bit lighter assuming the same level of fitness. Being shorter might even be an advantage. If your back is shorter, you don't need to expend as much energy to keep it straight when cornering, for example. Because of this, fatigue could take longer to set in.

The most definite way to figure this out is of course to test people of both genders, both people of average builds, tall people, short people, slightly chunky people, very thin people, athletic people, and see how they perform when subjected to the forces of an average racing driver. Or indeed put them in a real race car, but this requires finding people who are at very similar levels of driving skill, which might be hard to find enough of to make a big enough sample size.

 

[mustafur]

You can state the so called obvious all you like. You are wrong. Totally wrong and you will never be anything but wrong. You are continually saying that you think that some requirement in one sport means something for a different sport.

Other sports are just that. Other sports. They have nothing to do with motor racing.

Driving a racing car is not an athletic sport. End of. There is no reason at all why a woman cannot have the level of fitness required to compete in motor sport.

What do you mean racing is not an athletic sport?

 

[Tired Tyres]

What do you mean racing is not an athletic sport?

As in it is not the physical fitness of the competitor that determines the result, and it is not the physical prowess of the competitor that determines the ability to compete.

 

[mustafur]

As in it is not the physical fitness of the competitor that determines the result, and it is not the physical prowess of the competitor that determines the ability to compete.

Depending on the series I would say very much otherwise.

The Series that is likely the most Physical would be Indycar as they don't have power steering and they achieve consistently high G on Banked Ovals and close to similar G on Circuits as F1.

On roadcourses some serious Muscle endurance is required to handle these cars yet this is also the series with Argubly the best current Female driver who has been able to perform Solidly despite not even having the best equipment.

But your completely wrong on that assumption you made, have you ever driven a High powered go kart by anychance?

 

[Tired Tyres]

Indycar would therefore prove athleticism is nothing to do with it. A certain very small lady by the name of Danica Patrick was certainly capable of running on the pace on ovals and having no more trouble with race distances than the men.

Michelle Mouton competed in and won events in the World Rally Championship without such niceties as power steering.

A requirement for physical fitness (required, no argument there) is not the same thing as athleticism. If it was, women simply wouldn't be able to complete with men equally and since they do therefore it can't be.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So you guys would seriously be against this even if it was aimed as a lower feeder series aimed at propelling Female careers like a Scholership program they have in Developing Asian countries to bring in Emergring Talent

I'd still be absolutely against it. As long as women are treated as being somehow different from men in this context then the real problem (the lack of females with grass-roots drive and opportunity) will be perpetuated. Even the replies in this thread demonstrate that there are people who genuinely feel there should be a difference in the way that female racers are considered or treated. There simply shouldn't be.

 

[catamount39]

Indycar would therefore prove athleticism is nothing to do with it. A certain very small lady by the name of Danica Patrick was certainly capable of running on the pace on ovals and having no more trouble with race distances than the men.

Michelle Mouton competed in and won events in the World Rally Championship without such niceties as power steering.

A requirement for physical fitness (required, no argument there) is not the same thing as athleticism. If it was, women simply wouldn't be able to complete with men equally and since they do therefore it can't be.

And it should be added Indycars do not have power steering.

 

[05XR8]

this would be an F1 series with no males entered. Imbsurebthe cars would be faster than formula E. And noone would watch it as a support race?

Let's be real. I have attended the AGP 4 times(missed this year, sadly). I hang around for V8s', the speed comparison and sometimes Careers Cup. Most times, I'm walking around or getting autographs and taking photos, looking at cars in the garages and cars on display. Watching from home, I don't move from the tv. How can anyone switch the channel on more F1 racing while at home?

 

[ShiftingGears]

You can state the so called obvious all you like. You are wrong. Totally wrong and you will never be anything but wrong. You are continually saying that you think that some requirement in one sport means something for a different sport.

Well I don't intend to continue arguing with someone who doesn't pick up on nuances and who isn't willing to provide reasons for his opinions.

Other sports are just that. Other sports. They have nothing to do with motor racing.

All sports require physical exertion...that's why they are sports. This puts women at a physiological disadvantage to men. Again, explain to me why Formula One drivers train so hard, if physical acumen is not that important.

And it should be added Indycars do not have power steering.

And it should be added that IndyCars had variable ratio power steering, to make turning the wheel easier at more extreme wheel angles. in 2007 Danica was one of the select few drivers that IndyCar gave this steering rack to. I wonder why.

Michelle Mouton competed in and won events in the World Rally Championship without such niceties as power steering.

World Rally is a much different beast than it was in the time of Group B. Like any sport, the standards of world rallying demand a great deal more fitness than it did in the 80's. I think you will agree that you wouldn't see a fat smoker (eg Timo Salonen) cut it in modern world rally.

A requirement for physical fitness (required, no argument there) is not the same thing as athleticism. If it was, women simply wouldn't be able to complete with men equally and since they do therefore it can't be.

Your idea of equally consists of being on the same grid as a man. Say a golf tournament allowed a woman to take part, then by your logic then they are competing equally, even though they are clearly at a disadvantage. As you conceded.

 

[Soundtrack]

All sports require physical exertion...that's why they are sports. This puts women at a physiological disadvantage to men. Again, explain to me why Formula One drivers train so hard, if physical acumen is not that important.

Do you believe Formula 1 drivers, as fit as they are, stand a chance against a top tier female boxer?

 

[ShiftingGears]

Do you believe Formula 1 drivers, as fit as they are, stand a chance against a top tier female boxer?

I'm not going to pretend to know the answer to that question. I imagine it would be closer than if they were against a mixed martial artist. I'm assuming you are using this question to precede a question about physicality vs skill, to which I would say - in elite sport you'd have to be a lot more skilled to compete equally if you lack the physicality of your opponent.

 

[Legro]

in elite sport you'd have to be a lot more skilled to compete equally if you lack the physicality of your opponent.

In racing the fitness only makes difference when a driver can't keep up the speed to the finish line, due to physiological reasons. When the driver doesn't suffer from this, the only thing that can make a driver better is driving skill. I really don't think, that point is unreachable for women in F1 or any other racing series there are.

 

[Soundtrack]

in elite sport you'd have to be a lot more skilled to compete equally if you lack the physicality of your opponent.

By your logic, female drivers should already be asking for gender equity and that doesn’t seems to be the case.

 

[ShiftingGears]

By your logic, female drivers should already be asking for gender equity and that doesn’t seems to be the case.

What female drivers should and shouldn't ask for is not part of any logic I have brought to this thread. But on that point I suspect you would see more requests, whatever they may be, from female racers once there are more of them actually racing professionally.

 

[Soundtrack]

What female drivers should and shouldn't ask for is not part of any logic I have brought to this thread.

I may misunderstand you, but it seems you repeatedly suggested woman were inherently incapable of competing against man in this tread. (no offense intended)

 

[ShiftingGears]

I may misunderstand you, but it seems you repeatedly suggested woman were inherently incapable of competing against man in this tread. (no offense intended)

All I'm saying is that I think women will have a degree of physical disadvantage which will hinder them in motorsport compared to men to an extent. So I don't think it's unreasonable or sexist to suggest a women's racing competition. Because surely, like any other sport, a separation between men's and women's sporting competitions boils down to some arbitrary performance standard defining what is competitive and what is not.

I think @mustafur has raised an interesting point about how to get women in motorsport, which I think should be the kind of discussion that would actually serve a constructive purpose rather than people getting overly sensitive and claiming discrimination.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Well I don't intend to continue arguing with someone who doesn't pick up on nuances and who isn't willing to provide reasons for his opinions.



All sports require physical exertion...that's why they are sports. This puts women at a physiological disadvantage to men. Again, explain to me why Formula One drivers train so hard, if physical acumen is not that important.



And it should be added that IndyCars had variable ratio power steering, to make turning the wheel easier at more extreme wheel angles. in 2007 Danica was one of the select few drivers that IndyCar gave this steering rack to. I wonder why.



World Rally is a much different beast than it was in the time of Group B. Like any sport, the standards of world rallying demand a great deal more fitness than it did in the 80's. I think you will agree that you wouldn't see a fat smoker (eg Timo Salonen) cut it in modern world rally.



Your idea of equally consists of being on the same grid as a man. Say a golf tournament allowed a woman to take part, then by your logic then they are competing equally, even though they are clearly at a disadvantage. As you conceded.

Round and round and round again. Apples and oranges mate. Again and again. Golf Is Not Motor Racing. End Of.

Comparison with other totally non related sports is never going to win you any points and only makes you look like someone who doesn't have an argument to back up his point of view.

 

[Soundtrack]

All I'm saying is that I think women will have a degree of physical disadvantage which will hinder them in motorsport compared to men to an extent. So I don't think it's unreasonable or sexist to suggest a women's racing competition. Because surely, like any other sport, a separation between men's and women's sporting competitions boils down to some arbitrary performance standard defining what is competitive and what is not.

I think @mustafur has raised an interesting point about how to get women in motorsport, which I think should be the kind of discussion that would actually serve a constructive purpose rather than people getting overly sensitive and claiming discrimination.

Challenging stereotypes and reducing discrimination

Given that sport was traditionally a male domain, the participation of women and girls in sport challenges a multitude of gender stereotypes, not only those related to physical ability but also those regarding women’s role in local communities and society at large. By directly challenging and dispelling misconceptions about women’s capabilities, integrated sport programmes help to reduce discrimination and broaden the role prescribed to women.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/public/Women and Sport.pdf

For constructive purposes.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Round and round and round again. Apples and oranges mate. Again and again. Golf Is Not Motor Racing. End Of.

Comparison with other totally non related sports is never going to win you any points and only makes you look like someone who doesn't have an argument to back up his point of view.

I don't know why I expected you to understand the point I was making...I've made my points and to further articulate them to you would be a waste of time.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/public/Women and Sport.pdf

For constructive purposes.

Will definitely give it a read when I have a chance. 👍

 

[Tired Tyres]

Because your points make no sense at all as I've pointed out to you constantly. It does not matter how you change your words. You are not changing your argument. I don't agree with you and never will.

 

[qhobbes]

Physical proof you don't have to be physically fit to be good at auto racing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Carmen Jorda like the idea of a ladies' championship:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...lestones-idea-of-a-womens-world-championship/

The cynic in me wonders if this is because it's the only way she could get a drive.

 

[Furinkazen]

Carmen Jorda like the idea of a ladies' championship:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...lestones-idea-of-a-womens-world-championship/

The cynic in me wonders if this is because it's the only way she could get a drive.

I heard about that yesterday - she is never going to get a seat in Europe way she is. She'd probably get one in Indycar state side though.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There's one small problem with the idea of a womens' championship - where are all the women going to come from?

Assuming for the moment that Bernie wanted a full grid of at least fifteen cars, how is he going to find fifteen female drivers? Sure, there's Wolff and Jorda and de Silvestro, and no doubt someone will mention Patrick, but that's a grand total of four drivers.

 

[Dennisch]

There's one small problem with the idea of a womens' championship - where are all the women going to come from?

Assuming for the moment that Bernie wanted a full grid of at least fifteen cars, how is he going to find fifteen female drivers? Sure, there's Wolff and Jorda and de Silvestro, and no doubt someone will mention Patrick, but that's a grand total of four drivers.

You fill the field with people you've never heard of, who never been in a high spec formula car.

First race should be a blast, though.

 

[mustafur]

There's one small problem with the idea of a womens' championship - where are all the women going to come from?

Assuming for the moment that Bernie wanted a full grid of at least fifteen cars, how is he going to find fifteen female drivers? Sure, there's Wolff and Jorda and de Silvestro, and no doubt someone will mention Patrick, but that's a grand total of four drivers.

Not to start a fight or anything, but your list of known Female drivers is hilariously bad.

There is enough drivers to fill a 15 car grid pretty easily.

I would rate Legge, Powell, Mann and Gachnang above Jorda aswell.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not to start a fight or anything, but your list of known Female drivers is hilariously bad.

There is enough drivers to fill a 15 car grid pretty easily.

I would rate Legge, Powell, Mann and Gachnang above Jorda aswell.

So we've got 9 now...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

but your list of known Female drivers is hilariously bad.

Congratulations! You have successfully missed the point. Again.

The point was not to list female drivers, but to highlight that there are only a small handful of female drivers. Assuming that they could draw on a full grid - upwards of twenty drivers - and intend to pitch it as a viable stepping stone to Formula 1, the range of talent on offer would be so extreme that it would compromise the concept of the series.

 

[mustafur]

Congratulations! You have successfully missed the point. Again.

The point was not to list female drivers, but to highlight that there are only a small handful of female drivers. Assuming that they could draw on a full grid - upwards of twenty drivers - and intend to pitch it as a viable stepping stone to Formula 1, the range of talent on offer would be so extreme that it would compromise the concept of the series.

But what point is that, is the point to make the best series possible or to grow Female participation?

Because everything I have read about this suggests the Latter.