FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[Bowtie-muscle]

I'd say at least 3 weeks minimum tuning/testing time for 3 classes. A slight staggering of deadlines would mean a constant trickle of results which keeps interest up.

Day 1 = details released, all entries can be started/submitted
Day 7 = class 1 tuning deadline/class 1 testing starts
Day 14 = class 2 tuning deadline/ class 2 testing starts
Day 21 = class 3 tuning deadline/ class 3 testing starts

+14 days testing deadline for each class

Comes in at just over a month total duration 👍

The scoring is relatively simple to do by hand, its just averages (add everything together and divide by the number of data points ie. [time 1 + time 2 + time 3] divided by 3 = Average time). Slightly time consuming but simple enough if you're not good with spreadsheets.

Had that thought on dates but was unsure, will figure it out. As for scoring, I sometimes do the math myself anyway so I know it's not hard. Was more looking to have something others can see.

 

[DolHaus]

Had that thought on dates but was unsure, will figure it out. As for scoring, I sometimes do the math myself anyway so I know it's not hard. Was more looking to have something others can see.

Host it on google sheets, its free to download 👍

Either that or use excel (or google sheets), hit print screen and copy the image to paint or some other imaging software where you can crop it and save it as an image. You can then upload the image into a post

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Host it on google sheets, its free to download 👍

Either that or use excel (or google sheets), hit print screen and copy the image to paint or some other imaging software where you can crop it and save it as an image. You can then upload the image into a post

I know, but it would be easier for me to have someone who knows what they are doing and who already has a setup.

 

[DolHaus]

I know, but it would be easier for me to have someone who knows what they are doing and who already has a setup.

Honestly its not difficult, it seems daunting at first but there are plenty of people including myself who can talk you through it and help keep things on track

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I will also be unavailable for 2 or 3 days but might give it a shot. Between you and Otaliema, I can make you guys crazy having you help. I will think about it.

 

[cbarbosa]

@DolHaus @Otaliema @Bowtie-muscle

My apologies for barge in the conversation, but may I offer my help in creating docs/sheets for your thread?

As I now have, unfortunatelly, more free time, I can create the docs according to the needs, as long the info is provided...

My apologies once again and TY! 👍

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

@DolHaus @Otaliema @Bowtie-muscle

My apologies for barge in the conversation, but may I offer my help in creating docs/sheets for your thread?

As I now have, unfortunatelly, more free time, I can create the docs according to the needs, as long the info is provided...

My apologies once again and TY! 👍

Not a bad idea, would be great to get you involved:tup:

 

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus @Otaliema @Bowtie-muscle

My apologies for barge in the conversation, but may I offer my help in creating docs/sheets for your thread?

As I now have, unfortunatelly, more free time, I can create the docs according to the needs, as long the info is provided...

My apologies once again and TY! 👍

No need to apologise, all help is welcomed 👍

 

[cbarbosa]

Not a bad idea, would be great to get you involved:tup:

No need to apologise, all help is welcomed 👍

👍 I'm a zero at tunning , but for Excel and Google sheets I like to think I can work with them...

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus @Otaliema @Bowtie-muscle

My apologies for barge in the conversation, but may I offer my help in creating docs/sheets for your thread?

As I now have, unfortunatelly, more free time, I can create the docs according to the needs, as long the info is provided...

My apologies once again and TY! 👍

As said previously no need to apoligise for offering to help. I have some stock blanks made for testing that allow simple copy and paste into a new document so making them is not hard for me, after working out a few bugs they are super simple to use now.
The only thing I'm thinking about it how make lap time input easier. Your welcome to take a look at them drop me a PM i'll send you a link.

Not a bad idea, would be great to get you involved:tup:

Agreed!

No need to apologise, all help is welcomed 👍

Agreed!

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

👍 I'm a zero at tunning , but for Excel and Google sheets I like to think I can work with them...

Also not bad at testing and reviewing, there is always room for testers if you feel up to it.

 

[Otaliema]

Also not bad at testing and reviewing, there is always room for testers if you feel up to it.

Yeah we are always short on testers due to time commitment for testing. 5-15 hours depending on the group.

 

[shaunm80]

Also not bad at testing and reviewing, there is always room for testers if you feel up to it.

I'd agree with that. your reviews are always concise, fair and look at the car holistically. You would make a very good tester for FITT tunes.

 

[cbarbosa]

As said previously no need to apoligise for offering to help. I have some stock blanks made for testing that allow simple copy and paste into a new document so making them is not hard for me, after working out a few bugs they are super simple to use now.
The only thing I'm thinking about it how make lap time input easier. Your welcome to take a look at them drop me a PM i'll send you a link.

👍 Will send PM asasp...

Also not bad at testing and reviewing, there is always room for testers if you feel up to it.

Yeah we are always short on testers due to time commitment for testing. 5-15 hours depending on the group.

I spend more time in the computer (and GTP of course!) and not much on the PS3, but many thanks for the idea though!! 👍

 

[xande1959]

be able to choose the category pick race cars

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

be able to choose the category pick race cars

Yes, choose as many as you wish.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

So we started considering a new way of scoring FITT challenges in the British invasion thread and @Otaliema wisely suggested we move it over here.

My suggestion is based on the changes that @Motor City Hami already made in scoring with the google doc in the ford challenge. He basically converted lap times to a point system. the fastest lap was changed to 10 points and then every lap under than was calculated and given a point score also.

My recommendation is to scale it the system he used up to 100 points for the fastest lap because our tuners are testers are getting better and in some cases a group of 10 cars can all be withing 1sec of each other. with a 100pt system, being 10ths and 100ths apart will have a more visual/understandable separation.

Second, we would completely over haul the Drivers Choice score to make it more integral to the scoring and simultaneously making it more in depth, more easy to come up with, and be a better and more readable representation of what the testers thought of your car. Basically it would be on a 100pt scale just like the lap times but be broken into 4 or 5 categories. An example would be: corner entry, corner exit, braking, grip, and confidence. Each would be worth 20 points and scored independently of each other. With this system if a car had great brakes and lots of grip but had some understeer, it would still score high in confidence and the other two categiories and come out with a good DC score. If it had decent lap times because of the confidence it inspired then it would be a podium car. Vice versa you could still podium with a blazingly fast lap and decent DC scores. A car though that would have had say double 2nd place finishes normally would win this way because it was really good at both.

Some High points of all those words up there (sorry) are:

1. The math is super simple, the only conversions needed are for the laps after the fastest. Everything else is basic addition.

2. It doesn't ask for a compromise one way or another. Everybody builds the best car they can and the overall best car will shine through.

3. The 100 points for each category allows for 10ths and 100ths to make a real visible difference score wise.

4. Breaking dc into categories gives you a more true score and we aren't just guessing or going by feel. There's independent categories to judged. They can also be swapped in and out for each competition. Fun factor instead of confidence level for example.

This way it leaves us with one true winner instead of a fast lap and DC winner. Both scores get added and the highest combined score wins. What do you guys think ?

 

[Otaliema]

I agree that the DC system needs the update, the cars as of late have been getting really good, some them excel at somthing but hurt in another and that ends up hurting the score depending on where it was hurting it could be a minor or major hit. Using the point scale hami made with. Up conversion to 100 points will make it easy on the lap time part of it, and if the host wants would allow for three podiums in one contest, overall, DC and lap time. Would make it in theory more like. Season where the car that was consistent wins the overall but may not win the lap of the DC score. Making the scoring sheets would be simple as well just a total for the DC score not 6 cells unless we want to break down the DC category's for visual reasons

 

[shaunm80]

I agree that the DC system needs the update, the cars as of late have been getting really good, some them excel at somthing but hurt in another and that ends up hurting the score depending on where it was hurting it could be a minor or major hit. Using the point scale hami made with. Up conversion to 100 points will make it easy on the lap time part of it, and if the host wants would allow for three podiums in one contest, overall, DC and lap time. Would make it in theory more like. Season where the car that was consistent wins the overall but may not win the lap of the DC score. Making the scoring sheets would be simple as well just a total for the DC score not 6 cells unless we want to break down the DC category's for visual reasons

I see what you guys are saying about the DC scoring. It all makes sense that giving scoring guidelines with fixed maximum points per criteria would give much more balanced scores overall. I have a feeling it is too soon to implement this for @Bowtie-muscle event for the actual scoring but would it be worth devising a test score sheet based on what you are discussing. It may be a way to look at what the tuner scores for DC under the current rules as opposed to what they would have scored if they used the new (proposed) system. There may or may not be a discernible difference, likewise, it could show some anomalies with some tuners DC scores. I agree with the 4 criteria way. Brakes, Corner Entry, Corner Exit and Grip. ( I think confidence would be what these four all together make, so if a tune isn't at its optimum, it might not score well on confidence either).

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I see what you guys are saying about the DC scoring. It all makes sense that giving scoring guidelines with fixed maximum points per criteria would give much more balanced scores overall. I have a feeling it is too soon to implement this for @Bowtie-muscle event for the actual scoring but would it be worth devising a test score sheet based on what you are discussing. It may be a way to look at what the tuner scores for DC under the current rules as opposed to what they would have scored if they used the new (proposed) system. There may or may not be a discernible difference, likewise, it could show some anomalies with some tuners DC scores. I agree with the 4 criteria way. Brakes, Corner Entry, Corner Exit and Grip. ( I think confidence would be what these four all together make, so if a tune isn't at its optimum, it might not score well on confidence either).

Yes, it's too late in the game to make a change since tuners are already at work on their cars and we would have to get everyone up to speed. Even though it is early in the challenge, likely not a good idea to make this big of a change after the competition has already begun. We do have several testers in on this discussion however, if we set the ground rules and basic parameters before testing begins, we could try a sample run (unofficially) and see how it works. Perhaps if we picked just one class for the current challenge and had several testers do the work, we can get an idea of where the bugs are and where tweaks are needed. I am willing to go with it, just tell me which class we should try, my suggestion would be the Roadster or Street although one class does have testing beginning in a week.


EDIT: @Otaliema I set up the current challenge to have long testing times, if you were to test for the Roadster Class (@DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit and myself already have), we could use that class as a trial run. Short notice I know but just a thought. Testing starts Monday the 10th but has a two week period, meaning reviews are not due until the 23rd at midnight (24th by 8am EST).

 

[shaunm80]

Yes, it's too late in the game to make a change since tuners are already at work on their cars and we would have to get everyone up to speed. Even though it is early in the challenge, likely not a good idea to make this big of a change after the competition has already begun. We do have several testers in on this discussion however, if we set the ground rules and basic parameters before testing begins, we could try a sample run (unofficially) and see how it works. Perhaps if we picked just one class for the current challenge and had several testers do the work, we can get an idea of where the bugs are and where tweaks are needed. I am willing to go with it, just tell me which class we should try, my suggestion would be the Roadster or Street although one class does have testing beginning in a week.


EDIT: @Otaliema I set up the current challenge to have long testing times, if you were to test for the Roadster Class (@DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit and myself already have), we could use that class as a trial run. Short notice I know but just a thought. Testing starts Monday the 10th but has a two week period, meaning reviews are not due until the 23rd at midnight (24th by 8am EST).

Roadster class would be the easiest class to test this one in my opinion. It is the first test group and there are also a large number of entries for analysis of the proposed DC system once testing is over. It would give the FITT community a longer period of time before the next challenge to clarify any points and tweak final ideas.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

I agree that the DC system needs the update, the cars as of late have been getting really good, some them excel at something but hurt in another and that ends up hurting the score depending on where it was hurting it could be a minor or major hit. Using the point scale hami made with. Up conversion to 100 points will make it easy on the lap time part of it, and if the host wants would allow for three podiums in one contest, overall, DC and lap time. Would make it in theory more like. Season where the car that was consistent wins the overall but may not win the lap of the DC score. Making the scoring sheets would be simple as well just a total for the DC score not 6 cells unless we want to break down the DC category's for visual reasons

Yeah I think it would be ugly if you listed each category on the official score sheet but I think it would need to be able to be seen somewhere. Perhaps when a tester turns in their times, their DC scores need to be shown how they were broken down individually and the total ? one of the reasons for breaking them down would be so the tuners can see where they are doing well and where they need improvement.

Yes, it's too late in the game to make a change since tuners are already at work on their cars and we would have to get everyone up to speed. Even though it is early in the challenge, likely not a good idea to make this big of a change after the competition has already begun. We do have several testers in on this discussion however, if we set the ground rules and basic parameters before testing begins, we could try a sample run (unofficially) and see how it works. Perhaps if we picked just one class for the current challenge and had several testers do the work, we can get an idea of where the bugs are and where tweaks are needed. I am willing to go with it, just tell me which class we should try, my suggestion would be the Roadster or Street although one class does have testing beginning in a week.


EDIT: @Otaliema I set up the current challenge to have long testing times, if you were to test for the Roadster Class (@DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit and myself already have), we could use that class as a trial run. Short notice I know but just a thought. Testing starts Monday the 10th but has a two week period, meaning reviews are not due until the 23rd at midnight (24th by 8am EST).

I don't think it needs to be done on the current challenge because I think it needs to be spelled out in the rules of the challenge before it gets started. I had an idea for a challenge "kit car vs. real thing" that I am going to start testing for soon. If there's nothing else coming up after the current british one, i'll have it ready in time for sure if the cars work out and we can test the DC scoring then.

That's just what I think, I personally wouldn't want to change the rules of a challenge mid way through. What do you guys think ? If you agree then I will "officially" post the full idea of my challenge so you can help me iron out the kinks.

 

[DolHaus]

Yeah I think it would be ugly if you listed each category on the official score sheet but I think it would need to be able to be seen somewhere. Perhaps when a tester turns in their times, their DC scores need to be shown how they were broken down individually and the total ? one of the reasons for breaking them down would be so the tuners can see where they are doing well and where they need improvement.



I don't think it needs to be done on the current challenge because I think it needs to be spelled out in the rules of the challenge before it gets started. I had an idea for a challenge "kit car vs. real thing" that I am going to start testing for soon. If there's nothing else coming up after the current british one, i'll have it ready in time for sure if the cars work out and we can test the DC scoring then.

That's just what I think, I personally wouldn't want to change the rules of a challenge mid way through. What do you guys think ? If you agree then I will "officially" post the full idea of my challenge so you can help me iron out the kinks.

I agree that this idea should be approached with a blank slate, its a great plan but I think there may be some initial teething troubles

Maybe if @ImToLegitToQuit and/or @Otaliema ran the next contest that would allow them to keep control of the process and help iron out any problems that may occur 👍

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

I agree that this idea should be approached with a blank slate, its a great plan but I think there may be some initial teething troubles

Maybe if @ImToLegitToQuit and/or @Otaliema ran the next contest that would allow them to keep control of the process and help iron out any problems that may occur 👍

what troubles do you think might arise ? Maybe we wecan discuss them now and suss them out.

 

[Otaliema]

@Otaliema I set up the current challenge to have long testing times, if you were to test for the Roadster Class (@DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit and myself already have), we could use that class as a trial run.

Let me get a car tuned for it and see what my mental sanity looks like small unstable cars on a short quick track.

Roadster class would be the easiest class to test this one in my opinion. It is the first test group and there are also a large number of entries for analysis of the proposed DC system once testing is over.

I know it's still 6 days out but when looking an overhaul of one the key points of a scoring system the worst thing that can be done is rush it, even if it's just a trial run, a rushed trail run will just show all the bugs and few if any good poins of the system. I'm still on the fence for it.

Yeah I think it would be ugly if you listed each category on the official score sheet

I could do it in a clean way for reading, the back end would be so ugly it would make the ugly duckling look cute.

I personally wouldn't want to change the rules of a challenge mid way through. What do you guys think ? If you agree then I will "officially" post the full idea of my challenge

I'm with you on this one but it is @Bowtie-muscle challenge if he wants to use a group to give us a trial run sooner, than I will do what I can to get a sheet made for it, on that note Bowtie I personally think the roadsters class would not be the best group as it's too close in dead line, even with a trail run I would think we want this idea 85% ironed out in thread and PM first.

There's independent categories to judged. They can also be swapped in and out for each competition. Fun factor instead of confidence level for example.

I was thinking on this last night a the categories I came up with are,

1. Acceleration
2. Braking
3. Corner entry
4. Corner exit
5. Confidence
6. Consistency*
7. Predictability*
8. Speed
9. Recovery
10. Fun

*A car can be consistent but still toss surprises at you, cook a entry and it doesn't recover like it has prior or just under steers for no apparent reason. A car can be predictable with out being consistent or good. We have all have been in that type of car, you know it's going to put you in a wall or spin at a certain point on the track and there is little you can do about it.

 

[DolHaus]

what troubles do you think might arise ? Maybe we wecan discuss them now and suss them out.

A badly worded statement on my behalf, I can't think of anything obvious but there is always a chance of something going awry and it would be best if the curators of the idea were there to take control. 👍

I was thinking on this last night a the categories I came up with are,

1. Acceleration
2. Braking
3. Corner entry
4. Corner exit
5. Confidence
6. Consistency*
7. Predictability*
8. Speed
9. Recovery
10. Fun

*A car can be consistent but still toss surprises at you, cook a entry and it doesn't recover like it has prior or just under steers for no apparent reason. A car can be predictable with out being consistent or good. We have all have been in that type of car, you know it's going to put you in a wall or spin at a certain point on the track and there is little you can do about it.

I think less categories would be better

Entry
Mid Corner
Exit
Personal preference (Some people like stability, some like them a little bit more wild, this covers both)

 

[shaunm80]

Let me get a car tuned for it and see what my mental sanity looks like small unstable cars on a short quick track.


I know it's still 6 days out but when looking an overhaul of one the key points of a scoring system the worst thing that can be done is rush it, even if it's just a trial run, a rushed trail run will just show all the bugs and few if any good poins of the system. I'm still on the fence for it.


I could do it in a clean way for reading, the back end would be so ugly it would make the ugly duckling look cute.


I'm with you on this one but it is @Bowtie-muscle challenge if he wants to use a group to give us a trial run sooner, than I will do what I can to get a sheet made for it, on that note Bowtie I personally think the roadsters class would not be the best group as it's too close in dead line, even with a trail run I would think we want this idea 85% ironed out in thread and PM first.


I was thinking on this last night a the categories I came up with are,

1. Acceleration
2. Braking
3. Corner entry
4. Corner exit
5. Confidence
6. Consistency*
7. Predictability*
8. Speed
9. Recovery
10. Fun

*A car can be consistent but still toss surprises at you, cook a entry and it doesn't recover like it has prior or just under steers for no apparent reason. A car can be predictable with out being consistent or good. We have all have been in that type of car, you know it's going to put you in a wall or spin at a certain point on the track and there is little you can do about it.

Fair point about the 6 days to draw up a pilot programme of sorts.. I can see where you are coming from. Reading back a few comments, I can see why using a new challenge (Kit vs Real life for example) might be a better fit and just run with Bowties as we always have done. The only instant issues that come to mind for me is the grading criteria. If I think to what my Uni looks for, 40% is a scraping pass, 50% is a good effort but more work required and 60 - 80% means you have got a lot of knowledge going on, you just need to link it together better and the 90-100% means perfect.. How do we make these distinctions in grading easy to understand for all testers to follow? Thats my initial thought anyway.

 

[Otaliema]

I think less categories would be better

Entry
Mid Corner
Exit
Personal preference (Some people like stability, some like them a little bit more wild, this covers both)

The long list of options is to give the host the options to pick what they want the challenge to be more focused around. Do they want to see more stable race type tunes or more hot lap style, etc. Good call on the mid corner I knew I was forgetting part of the corner

If I think to what my Uni looks for, 40% is a scraping pass, 50% is a good effort but more work required and 60 - 80% means you have got a lot of knowledge going on, you just need to link it together better and the 90-100% means perfect.. How do we make these distinctions in grading easy to understand for all testers to follow? Thats my initial thought anyway.

Exactly this idea is great but needs more work, how do we set up the grading, do we mandate certain categories for every challenge or give the host free call on them, do we limit the list to four or five, do we allow weighting of a category to force a shift of style for a challenge, etc.

 

[DolHaus]

The long list of options is to give the host the options to pick what they want the challenge to be more focused around. Do they want to see more stable race type tunes or more hot lap style, etc. Good call on the mid corner I knew I was forgetting part of the corner


Exactly this idea is great but needs more work, how do we set up the grading, do we mandate certain categories for every challenge or give the host free call on them, do we limit the list to four or five, do we allow weighting of a category to force a shift of style for a challenge, etc.

I don't think adding variables is a good idea, the scoring system needs to fit every circumstance rather than being custom tailored every time.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

Fair point about the 6 days to draw up a pilot programme of sorts.. I can see where you are coming from. Reading back a few comments, I can see why using a new challenge (Kit vs Real life for example) might be a better fit and just run with Bowties as we always have done. The only instant issues that come to mind for me is the grading criteria. If I think to what my Uni looks for, 40% is a scraping pass, 50% is a good effort but more work required and 60 - 80% means you have got a lot of knowledge going on, you just need to link it together better and the 90-100% means perfect.. How do we make these distinctions in grading easy to understand for all testers to follow? Thats my initial thought anyway.

i think I understand your question. It's not actually going to be percentage based like we are used to in school. It's point based but broken into categories. An example of a 4 score system would look like this:

Corner entry: 20pts
it turns in quickly but if you don't get the apex right and have to make an adjustment it won't regain that initial grip.
Corner exit: 25pts
it stays planted on exit and lets you use the throttle early without fear of spinning out
Braking: 15pts
it feels like I am braking longer than other cars, perhaps due to the high toe settings combined with the 2/6 brake balance.
Personal preference: 19pts
it's a good car that needs to be driven with precision, it doesn't like to make changes once you've started turning though. the losses had during the longer braking are more than made up for on the corner exit though.

DC Total: 79

so with a perfect score being 25 points in each category this car had a total of 79. Rather than normally scoring a 7.5 or 8 on our current scale, the tuner can see that braking needs work and maybe softening up the front to help with entry might work. I hope that answers your question.