FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[DaBomm4]

So, being that @Bowtie-muscle's challenge will end Dec. 14th 7th, should we take a few week break for the holidays before the next challenge starts up? I know for me that everything will start getting busy around then so I would not get much time on the PS3.

Fun Fact: We have held 3 challenges from each of the 3 world regions so far.

Edit: Personal fail.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

So, being that @Bowtie-muscle's challenge will end Dec. 14th, should we take a few week break for the holidays before the next challenge starts up? I know for me that everything will start getting busy around then so I would not get much time on the PS3.

Fun Fact: We have held 3 challenges from each of the 3 world regions so far.

So, being that @Bowtie-muscle's challenge will end Dec. 14th, should we take a few week break for the holidays before the next challenge starts up? I know for me that everything will start getting busy around then so I would not get much time on the PS3.

Fun Fact: We have held 3 challenges from each of the 3 world regions so far.

The Challenge will actually end on the 7th. Think the rest of the month would be difficult to do anything.

 

[DaBomm4]

The Challenge will actually end on the 7th. Think the rest of the month would be difficult to do anything.

I know that! I had the 14th in my head from the BTCC that @CyKosis1973 is hosting... Question still mostly accurate at least.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I know that! I had the 14th in my head from the BTCC that @CyKosis1973 is hosting... Question still mostly accurate at least.

I know that! I had the 14th in my head from the BTCC that @CyKosis1973 is hosting... Question still mostly accurate at least.

Fair question as well, I would have to assume it would have to be a short, quick one. Not like the one currently underway but that is just my thought. It would have to be sensitive to the end of the month as Christmas and New Years get hectic for some of us.

Mouse giving me attitude, sorry for the double quote.

 

[Otaliema]

I got one on the back burner that could be ran in ten days total and this challenge is perfect launching point for it too hehe.

 

[nijalninja]

So what is the challenge?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

So what is the challenge?

The current challenge is here, "British Invasion". The first class has tunes due on Sunday but a 48 hour extension will be allowed. The second class, tunes are due by the 16th, third class tunes are due bu the 23rd. Have a look and feel free to jump in if you wish.

 

[Otaliema]

Quick challenge proposal;
I've had this on the back burner a while waiting for a good challenge to pose it off of. There is a minor running debate as to how much time a a good transmission can shave off a car. Some say it's less than half a second others state it is over a second on an average track.
What i'm proposing is run a 7-10 day challenge imiedtily on the heels of the current challenge that @Bowtie-muscle is running.
We take the winning Lotus for overall score (Combined points from lap time using @Motor City Hami points system, and the DC score added to together) And slap a Full custom transmission on it. Staying at brands hatch Indy and see what times we get, minor tweaks allowed to adjust for improved gearing. 95% (two changes allowed basically) of the suspension must be the same as the winning tune. The transmission must be tuned, 4/5 of the five gears need to be changed from stock values.
Testing; If the test driver tested the car from the last challenge their lap time will be used as the base comparison. If they didn't test, they will need to run a base lap with the tune from the challenge. Test all submitted transmissions.
DC score would be based on how well the transmission improved the car. The lap time would be based on most improved from the base lap time with the original tune.
Example; Challenge tune, Tester A had laptime of 51.305 with a DC of 8.5 with the custom trans they got a lap time of 50.640, improvement of 0.665 seconds DC score of 8 due to a slight fish tailing that has shown up on corner exit.

The base lap time method could be used to switch tracks if we wanted so we have some variety in track choice. Another option for testers would be to allow them to use their home track & base lap method. As we are comparing the improvement that the transmission provides for each tester we all don't have to use the same track for this one.

 

[DolHaus]

Interesting thought but I just don't think you're going to see that big of a differences making adjustments to the transmission alone.

 

[Otaliema]

Interesting thought but I just don't think you're going to see that big of a differences making adjustments to the transmission alone.

That's the idea of the challenge find out just how much the transmission helps lap time. I'm honestly expecting less than a second average improvement unless it's a longer course or more twisty course that is used for testing

 

[shaunm80]

That's the idea of the challenge find out just how much the transmission helps lap time. I'm honestly expecting less than a second average improvement unless it's a longer course or more twisty course that is used for testing

And this will take between 7 and 10 days to complete? I can't see how that would do any harm. Its not like we would need to buy a new car or do a complete tune on it.

 

[DolHaus]

That's the idea of the challenge find out just how much the transmission helps lap time. I'm honestly expecting less than a second average improvement unless it's a longer course or more twisty course that is used for testing

You would see a fairly uniform improvement, more so if you were working on different courses where you're not specifically altering the length of certain gears to fit particular sections of one track. You're basically looking at some with long gears, some with short, differences would mostly be down to driver error

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

That's the idea of the challenge find out just how much the transmission helps lap time. I'm honestly expecting less than a second average improvement unless it's a longer course or more twisty course that is used for testing

I like the idea but i don't think it would need a whole challenge. Just make it a fitt experiment maybe.

 

[Otaliema]

And this will take between 7 and 10 days to complete? I can't see how that would do any harm. Its not like we would need to buy a new car or do a complete tune on it.

7-10 days is mostly testing time o would only allocate 3 days for tuning as its only one part of the car that's getting done with only a couple of adjustments to compensate for the harder shifts.

You would see a fairly uniform improvement, more so if you were working on different courses where you're not specifically altering the length of certain gears to fit particular sections of one track. You're basically looking at some with long gears, some with short, differences would mostly be down to driver error

The multiple track idea was just a suggestion it could be held at any track. For completely accurate testing it should be done only at brands hatch but I also understand track fatigue for the testers hence the option to test where they wanted. Longer gears would indacate it's a high speed course so we would see massive improvements from the fixed ratio if it's short gears that's a technical short course and thus we see a decent improvement. But again that's the idea, see just what the transmission can do for a car.

I like the idea but i don't think it would need a whole challenge. Just make it a fitt experiment maybe.

Fair point, this was proposed as a stop gap to fill out just before the holidays.
I have another in mind that could work. Just have to test a couple of cars to make sure they are balanced with each other.

 

[DolHaus]

7-10 days is mostly testing time o would only allocate 3 days for tuning as its only one part of the car that's getting done with only a couple of adjustments to compensate for the harder shifts.


The multiple track idea was just a suggestion it could be held at any track. For completely accurate testing it should be done only at brands hatch but I also understand track fatigue for the testers hence the option to test where they wanted. Longer gears would indacate it's a high speed course so we would see massive improvements from the fixed ratio if it's short gears that's a technical short course and thus we see a decent improvement. But again that's the idea, see just what the transmission can do for a car.


Fair point, this was proposed as a stop gap to fill out just before the holidays.
I have another in mind that could work. Just have to test a couple of cars to make sure they are balanced with each other.

You're just not going to see a discernible difference unfortunately. If I had an adequate basic setup and a complete custom setup tuned specifically to suit my line I would only expect to see 0.1-0.2 difference at best and that wouldn't be on every lap either.
For instance, I was messing with my gearing in the DB9 at Silverstone and converted it to a 5 speed, when I compared data from two laps (one with 6 gears/ one using 5) I was running nearly identical speeds across the entire lap despite the fairly dramatic change to the setup.

The transmission tuning might make a difference if you are setting up your own personal car for a seasonal but in this kind of testing environment its just not going to make enough of an impact

 

[Ronald6]

I'd love to see this challenge (despite not participating in the British Challenge).

In my personal experience there isn't one "slider" (to use Hami's word) that effects a car as much as a custon transmission.

 

[DolHaus]

In my experience once a basic transmission tune is in place the cornering speed the car is far more affected by spring/damper rates and the LSD tuning than the gearing. I can completely alter how a car performs by making simple adjustments to spring rates or LSD settings whereas the transmission can only really affect one element of performance.
You might see slightly better low speed corner exit acceleration with longer gearing in a car with a lot of low down torque or slightly better mid-high speed acceleration with close gearing in a car with peaky bhp but aside from those two basic approaches the differences are minor. These things are merely polishing away the scratches whereas the suspension and LSD are knocking out the big dents.
Within reason, the relative speed between the engine and wheels has less effect on the car overall than the way the car interacts with the forces acting upon it.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus I see your point i will look into another fast challenge and leave this one on the table for now see if anyone else has opinion on it. Right now aside from my self it's a one for one aginist and two indifferent on this one.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

@DolHaus I see your point i will look into another fast challenge and leave this one on the table for now see if anyone else has opinion on it. Right now aside from my self it's a one for one aginist and two indifferent on this one.

I am not sure, I saw some really wacky yet unique ways to build a trans. Not sure it would be much, but more than 1-2 tenths. I might be interested in doing it, but testers would have to put down a base lap first.

 

[Otaliema]

I am not sure, I saw some really wacky yet unique ways to build a trans. Not sure it would be much, but more than 1-2 tenths. I might be interested in doing it, but testers would have to put down a base lap first.

That's kinda idea for this challenge find out how much a transmission can help a car.
It's sorta a cross between a test and a challenge by giving tunes free range on how to build a transmission but we all use the same tune that we know is solid.

 

[Lionheart2113]

I agree that your LSD tuning can net the biggest gain, and the suspension is a close second, but tuning the transmission can be up there as well. It might be because I use an automatic, but I can gain upwards of .5xx (2 mile track), more importantly, it can change the characteristics of how the car handles, possibly setting me up for easier tuning of the suspension. Unfortunately, I've run into some cases where a certain transmission was amazing at GVS, but was completely wrong for say Panorama. So a complete overhaul of the tune was needed between the 2 tracks. I always tune the transmission after the LSD and before the suspension. Every time I think I've got some sort of pattern, a car comes along and throws a spanner in the works... when in doubt I use Mr.P's flip transmission for most and the reverse flip for the really high powered cars.
If you tune the car and then change the transmission, you probably will not get the same amount of drop in lap times. I'd be interested in seeing the results from a mini challenge....it would help with my notes!

 

[DaBomm4]

I typically tune transmission last with a few minor adjustments if needed, but for example, the Ford GT challenge, I could not get the car to accept my throttle inputs nicely at Daytona, so I mostly tuned on Big willow with some final testing at Daytona. I only adjusted top speed until I was at Daytona for the last time, but when I finally set the gears close to the posted tune, throttle inputs were easy and smooth to me, making it easier to get around Daytona. So, I am not as skeptical about seeing a decent decrease in lap time, but track and car in mind, that difference may still be a small improvement.

 

[DolHaus]

My main disagreement is that the differences are going to be so small and easily affected by other factors (track learning/familiarity with the car/fatigue/placebo effect) that we won't learn anything relevant or usable from the testing results.

I'm not opposed to the idea behind it at all, I'm always interested in learning something new. I just don't think that we're going to gain anything by doing it this way and I can't think of a suitable and easy way to execute the test in a manner that would highlight undeniable gains.

 

[demonchilde]

Hello guys.
I have a side question, I was going back n forth in my mind deciding where to ask this, and honestly the people who read this thread are the exact audience I wanted so here goes, lol.
tire sizes.
Now I know and see what the effect is to a point, but don't really get the math behind it.
Why would one choose one size over the other, and the answer be in game tuning terms not real life terms?
I have read various posts from all of us about tires, but have not found the basic real tune term answer.
example;
On a Ford something or other, this would do this;
Regular size= makes coffee for you
+1 size= makes coffee and donuts
+2 size= brings the coffee and donuts to you

Obviously that was just silly, but thats kinda the format I am looking for.
I dont just like to tune thingss until I get the desired effects, I ask this because I really like to understand why one thing works and another doesnt. Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks guys.

 

[DolHaus]

Hello guys.
I have a side question, I was going back n forth in my mind deciding where to ask this, and honestly the people who read this thread are the exact audience I wanted so here goes, lol.
tire sizes.
Now I know and see what the effect is to a point, but don't really get the math behind it.
Why would one choose one size over the other, and the answer be in game tuning terms not real life terms?
I have read various posts from all of us about tires, but have not found the basic real tune term answer.
example;
On a Ford something or other, this would do this;
Regular size= makes coffee for you
+1 size= makes coffee and donuts
+2 size= brings the coffee and donuts to you

Obviously that was just silly, but thats kinda the format I am looking for.
I dont just like to tune thingss until I get the desired effects, I ask this because I really like to understand why one thing works and another doesnt. Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks guys.

When we look at a wheel we have two separate components, the tyre and the rim. In GT6 when you change rim size you keep the same tyre outer diameter but increase the rim diameter, this means that the sidewall of the tyre is made shorter. The real life implications of this are that by changing the size of the sidewall you change the way the tyre deforms which is known as Tyre Flex.

A tyre with a tall sidewall (4x4 trucks) will deform more easily and absorb small bumps in the road offering better grip on uneven surfaces and at low speed, the downside to this is that because the tyre is more deformable it will be prone to leaning sideways when subjected to high cornering forces which will reduce grip and stability.
A tyre with a short sidewall (super cars) will be less prone to deformation, it will remain more constant for more of the time which offers stability and grip in high load situations, the downside of this is that the tyre will offer a choppy low speed ride and excess vibration at low speeds and reduced grip on uneven surfaces.
These elements would have an effect on elements of your setup such as camber/toe and damper settings.

This said there is no clear evidence of any of these elements of tyre flex being modeled in GT6.
You shouldn't need to alter a tune to suit rim size, we identify the variable in FITT contests just as a precaution because you never can be 100% sure with PD

 

[Otaliema]

My main disagreement is that the differences are going to be so small and easily affected by other factors (track learning/familiarity with the car/fatigue/placebo effect) that we won't learn anything relevant or usable from the testing results.

I'm not opposed to the idea behind it at all, I'm always interested in learning something new. I just don't think that we're going to gain anything by doing it this way and I can't think of a suitable and easy way to execute the test in a manner that would highlight undeniable gains.

Sadly with out bob to drive for us things such as transmission effects will always have a variable in them, I think a placebo effect is the smallest that could happen, track and car familiarity would be a good thing as you will be able to tell what is happening with the car you will already(mostly) know the speeds you will reach at what points so you will notice if there is an effect or not. Until PD provides us a computer driver and or a speed test track like they did in GT5 we just have accept some human error in testing.
Something would work sorta for the Lotus is a AT transmission requirement for the base lap and the testing it self that way shift points are removed as a vairiable.

Hello guys.
I have a side question, I was going back n forth in my mind deciding where to ask this, and honestly the people who read this thread are the exact audience I wanted so here goes, lol.
tire sizes.
Now I know and see what the effect is to a point, but don't really get the math behind it.
Why would one choose one size over the other, and the answer be in game tuning terms not real life terms?
I have read various posts from all of us about tires, but have not found the basic real tune term answer.
example;
On a Ford something or other, this would do this;
Regular size= makes coffee for you
+1 size= makes coffee and donuts
+2 size= brings the coffee and donuts to you

Obviously that was just silly, but thats kinda the format I am looking for.
I dont just like to tune thingss until I get the desired effects, I ask this because I really like to understand why one thing works and another doesnt. Can anyone help me with this?

Thanks guys.

What Dolhaus said. I am in the boat that PD did some tire flex modeling I. The game and the rim side dose affect the car but it's so minor that you prolly won't notice honestly

 

[Ronald6]

My main disagreement is that the differences are going to be so small and easily affected by other factors (track learning/familiarity with the car/fatigue/placebo effect) that we won't learn anything relevant or usable from the testing results.

I'm not opposed to the idea behind it at all, I'm always interested in learning something new. I just don't think that we're going to gain anything by doing it this way and I can't think of a suitable and easy way to execute the test in a manner that would highlight undeniable gains.

The original test idea (using the British Challenge) sounds like the best way to test this.

Although... each tester has their favorite track that they know better than any other track (Trial Mtn for me). After the "Winner" is chosen from the British Challenge have each tester put down some "stock tranny" laps aat their chosen track then compare it to "non stock tranny" laps.

My 2c.

 

[DolHaus]

Sadly with out bob to drive for us things such as transmission effects will always have a variable in them, I think a placebo effect is the smallest that could happen, track and car familiarity would be a good thing as you will be able to tell what is happening with the car you will already(mostly) know the speeds you will reach at what points so you will notice if there is an effect or not. Until PD provides us a computer driver and or a speed test track like they did in GT5 we just have accept some human error in testing.
Something would work sorta for the Lotus is a AT transmission requirement for the base lap and the testing it self that way shift points are removed as a vairiable.

What Dolhaus said. I am in the boat that PD did some tire flex modeling I. The game and the rim side dose affect the car but it's so minor that you prolly won't notice honestly

Lets compare the potential variables:
*based at Brands Hatch Indy (if we use any track but the one its tuned for it potentially throws in a whole bunch of other issues/variables) using full custom trans tuned using top speed only

Track learning = -0.5
Familiarity with the car = -0.5
Fatigue = +0.5
Placebo effect = -/+ 0.5
Consistency of car/driver = -/+ 1.0

If the "perfect" transmission is worth <0.5 then it could be completely masked by any of these factors and make the results irrelevant.

 

[demonchilde]

Thank you guys for the responce.
I do like the explanation.

As far as noticing the difference, I belive my personal testing has shown some evidence.
Of course I could be nuts and have completely imagined it, or maybe mistook it for something else.
But what I seem to do/like is regular size for anything under 550pp, and +1 for anything more powerful.
I just wanted to know WHY I came to those results, lol. Thank you again for explaining it, it does seem to make sence.

 

[Otaliema]

Lets compare the potential variables:
*based at Brands Hatch Indy (if we use any track but the one its tuned for it potentially throws in a whole bunch of other issues/variables) using full custom trans tuned using top speed only

Track learning = -0.5
Familiarity with the car = -0.5
Fatigue = +0.5
Placebo effect = -/+ 0.5
Consistency of car/driver = -/+ 1.0

If the "perfect" transmission is worth <0.5 then it could be completely masked by any of these factors and make the results irrelevant.

You do have a valid point that any of the stuff you have listed could skew the results and produce hard to interrupt results. But let's say we have ten testers do the laps 3 see no improvement 3 see a slight drop and 4 see an improvement in the times but all rate the car as a better drive than that's a result. The result would be the transmission improves the feel and drives living even with little or no effect I lap times