FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers
- Thread starter DigitalBaka
- 2,660 comments
- 168,200 views
- 5,489
- mid west USA
- Otaliema
The idea is to have a overall winner as I understand it in addition to the DC and laptime winner.
- 1,399
- nova iguaçu
- xande1959
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
I just read back through the conversation and this wasn't mentioned at any point, I thought we were just trying to improve feedback and scoring. It could be implemented but I don't see the point myself.
I also still feel that the scoring is biased to the faster cars with only 40% of the points being accredited to the the driving experience rather than the performance.
Endurance tests would be impractical to score using DC, a car can start off feeling great but turn into a complete dog once the tyres start wearing out. We would have to rank them by time and number of laps completed
- 506
- uk
- bulletproofbrian
This I agree with. 👍 But I don`t think it needs a complicated solution.
Say 15 tuners in the competition. Each tester gives each tune a unique rank between 1-15. Winner has highest combined score?
Not always in my experience. But, life is very much like that.
The more testers we get, the more feedback tuners get. If a tester has the time and the inclination to give very detailed feedback, then great. But I wouldn`t want less testers giving amazing feedback at the expense of a greater field of testing data to give a truer ( i`m not sure thats a word!) average lap time winner.
- 672
- Fort Worth, TX
- imtolegittoquit
there is no problem with the current system honestly. This new way is just basically showing how the tester got to their score. Your description would not have to be as in depth as my examples. The reverse is possible if their lap is that much faster than the rest. This way just allows a best overall car to be decided and for the "fun factor" to count for something. I look at it as its something that we are already doing in our heads when coming up with a DC score, now we are just putting that process on paper.
we never quite decided actually. I figured we could do a 1,2,3 using the score and honorable mention fastest lap and honorable mention highest DC.
- 672
- Fort Worth, TX
- imtolegittoquit
We can talk about changing the point values but I think that personal preference will still show in how you score the cornering. I like looser cars vs safer cars. That would show in my cornering scores as well as enjoyment. I think that the larger number of points we give to the enjoyment category, mean it will need a more in depth explanation on why you scored it the way you did. Which in turn gets us closer to the way we are already doing it.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
That would work if you had 15 unique tunes but often cars are quite similar and trying to split one from the other will become difficult and will mostly be decided as a result of lap time. The current problem is just that, lap time is playing a big part in the score and that defeats the object.
The current problem is that its hard to objectively differentiate within 5 points at your disposal. Splitting the scoring up will allow you to more easily show where they car was good and where it needs improvement.
Does it though? Can you not just say "Really enjoyed it, big smile from ear to ear every time I hit the track 50/50 points 👍". Technical scores need defining to some extent but an emotional connection needs no real justification
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
I would agree with this to a point. In the last few challenges, the fastest cars didn't necessarily win the DC score as well. I can recall a few of the "seasoned" testers saying this in their reviews. I think it shows that the more testing/tuning you get under your belt, the more you appreciate how tuners can get a wild child to behave. I am still in awe of some of the tunes I've tested recently and tried showing this praise in my reviews. @brian wolf does bring up an interesting point about quality of reviews vs quantity of reviews. Not sure which I would choose.
I always base my drivers choice score on overall driving enjoyment. My reviews will never be overly technical because I don't have that background. As @Lionheart2113 said, the quickest car for me will not always be highest in dc. Testing up to 15 cars for 10 laps each, for 3 classes, can be quite a grind depending on track/car combo. Splitting and writing up reviews, breaking corners down into 3 sections, would take more time that testers don't always have.
I suppose it all depends on what kind of feedback the tuners are after. There are so many different driving styles around i'm not sure how much they will really gain, as results and scores will still vary greatly between testers.
I suppose it all depends on what kind of feedback the tuners are after. There are so many different driving styles around i'm not sure how much they will really gain, as results and scores will still vary greatly between testers.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Right, one last try at explaining this
Let imagine I'm testing a car (this will be done on the fly, just breaking it down for illustration):
I approach the corner and jump on the brakes, they get the car stopped but lack feeling. I say to myself "Brakes 5/10, functional but not dynamic". I come off the brakes and turn into the corner, the car has good rotation and precise response so I think "10/10 just what I was looking for"
My feedback now looks like this
Entry: 15/20
Good initial rotation and response but the brakes lacked feeling
I'm now in the mid part of the corner and thinking about how well the car rotates and how it holds its line. The car has good rotation (8/10) but is a little bit unstable (4/10) so I say -
Mid: 12/20
Good rotation but a little unpredictable
Now I'm getting to the exit and looking to put the power down, the car slides around a bit but is very controllable (6/10), when you do get the power down the acceleration is excellent although the gearing is a little bit long (8/10)
Exit: 14/20
A bit unstable on the power but controllable when it does break loose, gearing wasn't bad but would have prefered a closer box.
Over the course of the test I have enjoyed the car because it was exciting and made me work for my lap times, there were a few minor problems along the way and a few frustrating spins but I liked the car
Enjoyment: 35/40
Wasn't an easy car to drive but I felt very involved in the experience and enjoyed my time with it. Worked well with my driving style and despite a few issues I would drive it again.
Total Score: 76/100
Less words than a short paragraph but more than enough feedback for the tuner to work with. Made deciding the score both objective and easy, the car is graded on its own merits rather than being compared to the works of others. Simple, fast and fair 👍
Let imagine I'm testing a car (this will be done on the fly, just breaking it down for illustration):
I approach the corner and jump on the brakes, they get the car stopped but lack feeling. I say to myself "Brakes 5/10, functional but not dynamic". I come off the brakes and turn into the corner, the car has good rotation and precise response so I think "10/10 just what I was looking for"
My feedback now looks like this
Entry: 15/20
Good initial rotation and response but the brakes lacked feeling
I'm now in the mid part of the corner and thinking about how well the car rotates and how it holds its line. The car has good rotation (8/10) but is a little bit unstable (4/10) so I say -
Mid: 12/20
Good rotation but a little unpredictable
Now I'm getting to the exit and looking to put the power down, the car slides around a bit but is very controllable (6/10), when you do get the power down the acceleration is excellent although the gearing is a little bit long (8/10)
Exit: 14/20
A bit unstable on the power but controllable when it does break loose, gearing wasn't bad but would have prefered a closer box.
Over the course of the test I have enjoyed the car because it was exciting and made me work for my lap times, there were a few minor problems along the way and a few frustrating spins but I liked the car
Enjoyment: 35/40
Wasn't an easy car to drive but I felt very involved in the experience and enjoyed my time with it. Worked well with my driving style and despite a few issues I would drive it again.
Total Score: 76/100
Less words than a short paragraph but more than enough feedback for the tuner to work with. Made deciding the score both objective and easy, the car is graded on its own merits rather than being compared to the works of others. Simple, fast and fair 👍
- 5,489
- mid west USA
- Otaliema
For the most part every tester already gives this information in their feedback this breaks it down really clear.
As for the time involment for it it's actually not that much more than what I found I really give for a car it just broken down differently and in fewer words giving the same feedback. You could literally give one sentence per section with your normal review style in the enjoyment section.
Solid braking but hesatent to turn in 13/20
Great grip mid turn held any line but didn't want to correct 17/20
Great grip but wobbly on heavily throttle 15/20
Over all this car kept Me on my toes and didn't really surprise me much at all if I got my entry right the turns where smooth if I missed I was fighting the rest of the turn. 30/40
75/100 total score.
Simple just different style of review
With clearer results as to strength and weakness of a tune
As for the time involment for it it's actually not that much more than what I found I really give for a car it just broken down differently and in fewer words giving the same feedback. You could literally give one sentence per section with your normal review style in the enjoyment section.
Solid braking but hesatent to turn in 13/20
Great grip mid turn held any line but didn't want to correct 17/20
Great grip but wobbly on heavily throttle 15/20
Over all this car kept Me on my toes and didn't really surprise me much at all if I got my entry right the turns where smooth if I missed I was fighting the rest of the turn. 30/40
75/100 total score.
Simple just different style of review
With clearer results as to strength and weakness of a tune
- 672
- Fort Worth, TX
- imtolegittoquit
these two have really nailed it on the head and done a better job of explaining it than I have. Also remember guys, none of this is set in stone either. It's all just a suggestion right now. I think we should give it a shot and see how it works before we start complaining about how hard it is or how long it takes. we don't know either of those things yet.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
I don't see any issue with the lap time podium and driver's choice podium being similar. Why does someone currently rank high on driver's choice, what do we choose as the most fun car to drive? Normally, that is one that handles well. DC is an appreciation of the tuner's ability to take a poorly handling car and make it more fun. For most of us, more fun equates to the car corners well. And what makes for fast lap times? A car that corners well. For this reason, the lap time list and the DC list should be similar.
Here is an example where I think DC worked as it should. In the Focus challenge, I ran the fastest lap time with the @DolHaus tune, but I was uneasy driving it. This was my feedback, "The car is quick, but it was not consistent for me. I could feel the front tires losing grip through the wheel on exit if I pushed too hard. I got the quick time on one flying lap. DC 8.5" DolHaus did end up on the lap time podium, but there was another car that I liked much better, from @Bowtie-muscle. This was my feedback for his car, "I ran ½ of a lap, hit pause and wrote this, “I really like this tune. This is even better than my 2006 tune. I hope that my lap times are worthy of this car.” The rest of the drive was great too. I could really settle into a rhythm and just run laps. Very well done. DC 9.7." In this example, all of my favorite cars were also among the quickest. DC just allowed for me to rank them on something other than just pure lap time.
So I guess I ask, what is broken? All of the items listed in the new suggestions for scoring DC also are items that produce quick lap times. I am not sure that we can find measures in a racing game that do not also relate to speed and lap time?
Here is an example where I think DC worked as it should. In the Focus challenge, I ran the fastest lap time with the @DolHaus tune, but I was uneasy driving it. This was my feedback, "The car is quick, but it was not consistent for me. I could feel the front tires losing grip through the wheel on exit if I pushed too hard. I got the quick time on one flying lap. DC 8.5" DolHaus did end up on the lap time podium, but there was another car that I liked much better, from @Bowtie-muscle. This was my feedback for his car, "I ran ½ of a lap, hit pause and wrote this, “I really like this tune. This is even better than my 2006 tune. I hope that my lap times are worthy of this car.” The rest of the drive was great too. I could really settle into a rhythm and just run laps. Very well done. DC 9.7." In this example, all of my favorite cars were also among the quickest. DC just allowed for me to rank them on something other than just pure lap time.
So I guess I ask, what is broken? All of the items listed in the new suggestions for scoring DC also are items that produce quick lap times. I am not sure that we can find measures in a racing game that do not also relate to speed and lap time?
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
I think it all comes down to a car that can be wicked fast (setting an impressive lap time) but is so on edge that you set the world on fire one lap and yourself on fire the next. That can be the only reason I can see that would cause the lap time podium to be dramatically different than the DC podium. But as far as broken, I agree with you Hami 100%, with the detailed reviews and us essentially turning it into a 100 point DC system (with scores like 9.5 and 8.9) it is a nice system. And in my opinion, the more people test, the more they realize the importance of a good tune vs one that can set a track record. And there again, that comes down to the tester and how they like their cars to handle.
Like @biffa3 said, it would be asking a lot for testers, even us old ones, to break the DC score down even more. Especially for those of us who might not know what exactly is going on with the car....
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
I don't think there is anything wrong with the current system, I just feel it could be better and easier to use with a few minor tweaks. I just want every car to be ranked on its own attributes rather than randomly attributed a number with no frame of reference.
This isn't intended to make the testers life harder, its there to make it easier. It may look complicated at a glance but it really isn't, its just a 0-10 scale for every major element of a tune. You don't need to be Ross Braun to identify these things, you don't need to know exactly what the tune is doing to rank how well you thought it braked or turned into a corner.
I feel that in hindsight, maybe this has been approached in the wrong way and looks more complicated than it actually is and a more hands-on approach was the way to go. I will be using this method for my testing from now on. Maybe the rest of you will see the merits of the system, maybe you won't, only time will tell.
This isn't intended to make the testers life harder, its there to make it easier. It may look complicated at a glance but it really isn't, its just a 0-10 scale for every major element of a tune. You don't need to be Ross Braun to identify these things, you don't need to know exactly what the tune is doing to rank how well you thought it braked or turned into a corner.
I feel that in hindsight, maybe this has been approached in the wrong way and looks more complicated than it actually is and a more hands-on approach was the way to go. I will be using this method for my testing from now on. Maybe the rest of you will see the merits of the system, maybe you won't, only time will tell.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
@DolHaus I applaud your efforts. Do not take my differing opinion on the subject as a sign to stop thinking about new ways to score events. I believe that you are doing the right thing to strive for something new and potentially better. We should try it out and see how it goes.
I am not sure if you have landed on what "IT" is yet? Maybe you are not working on a new Drivers Choice score? Maybe this is something different entirely. Driver's choice has been a loose score leaving it to the driver to "choose" the cars he likes best for his reasons, whatever they may be. I think you may have come up with something different all together. To me it seems like a formalized handling score. So should we test this in a competition, a lap time score, a handling score and a free choice score?
I am not sure if you have landed on what "IT" is yet? Maybe you are not working on a new Drivers Choice score? Maybe this is something different entirely. Driver's choice has been a loose score leaving it to the driver to "choose" the cars he likes best for his reasons, whatever they may be. I think you may have come up with something different all together. To me it seems like a formalized handling score. So should we test this in a competition, a lap time score, a handling score and a free choice score?
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
A differing opinion is always a good thing, without them we can't improve 👍
Lets give it a go in the new year and see how it goes, if we don't try then we won't know if it is the way forward or a step in the wrong direction
- 5,489
- mid west USA
- Otaliema
Quick community interest check for the close out challenge for the year.
@DolHaus Proposed challenge GT300 held at Tsubuka time line 20 days 10 days for tuning and 10 days for testing.
or
@Otaliema Proposed transmission challenge using a pre-built car just the transmission is changed. held at Grand Valley East time line 10-15 days 3-5 days for tuning 7-10 days for testing.
@DolHaus Proposed challenge GT300 held at Tsubuka time line 20 days 10 days for tuning and 10 days for testing.
or
@Otaliema Proposed transmission challenge using a pre-built car just the transmission is changed. held at Grand Valley East time line 10-15 days 3-5 days for tuning 7-10 days for testing.
- 4,017
- New Jersey
- crash27wwjd
- 5,489
- mid west USA
- Otaliema
O_o ya know that doesn't help
- 4,017
- New Jersey
- crash27wwjd
........
- 1,493
- Portland / Or /
- Barefoot_Driver
The more I think about it the more I like the transmission idea. Even though more time can be gained from this one part than any other it doesn't get enough of a look from tuners.
That and I like GVE and am indifferent about Tsukuba and GT300 cars.
That and I like GVE and am indifferent about Tsukuba and GT300 cars.
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
I'd be interested in the transmission challenge. I'm always up for learning as much as I can about them...using automatic and all!
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Do we have enough test drivers to divide them into manual and automatic users? It would be interesting to see if the transmission could be optimized for each type of user. I never, ever drive or tune for automatic, but I would like to know if I am leaving anything on the table for these testers. There are speed advantages to using the manual transmission to hold a car at high revs through a section of corners without the automatic upshift. I tune to take advantage of that in manual. I have not idea why, but at the same corner speed, a car will turn better in 2nd gear than it will in 3rd gear. You cannot take advantage of this using automatic.
- 5,489
- mid west USA
- Otaliema
The automatic is affected more by the power band of the car, a well built transmission will work on both MT and AT cars if the power band is at the end of the RPM range.I'd be interested in the transmission challenge. I'm always up for learning as much as I can about them...using automatic and all!
I think we might get enough people just have to see. I can see how tuning a gear short to keep higher RPM for a turn with a MT would cause issues for a AT user, would have to tune the same gear longer to keep it from shifting in an AT car.
I'll go draw up a final draft for the challenge and post it so we can sort out questions about it. I have finished half of the Pro class today I'm going cross eyed looking at the dash of he Jag again
and the tach on the Aston just bugs me, it's backwards from every other car I've seen, it rev's right to left compared to normal left to right.
- 1,485
- Hampshire
- Lionheart2113
Has there ever been a challenge dividing the 2? I can't remember any...
It would be interesting to see some numbers with MoTeC comparing them.
It would be interesting to see some numbers with MoTeC comparing them.
