FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[DaBomm4]

Seeking second third opions here.
@Motor City Hami @praiano63 @ImToLegitToQuit and anyone else do you think a Gap challenge would pose inconsistency problems as @DolHaus is suggesting and a best lap is the best way forward for this one or will the gap race be doable as well tuned cars are consistent enough in anyone's hands to be a viable option. I know he RX-7 is highly consistent and any tune @praiano63 sets out to make stable and consistent will be such.

What I was thinking of with the idea of a gap based challenge is the tester sets a base lap with the stock transmission on the specified track, then they test all of the custom transmissions comparing to the stock, just like how we test tunes in the challenges, test the original, then see the improvements.

Now, as the whole concept as its own event, I think that having a set time for transmission tune submissions for each track and having a little bigger window (or completely open) for testing them would work. Have multiple tracks and each track opens for tuning when the previous one closes. We could change up the tunes used to give it more variety also.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

im not 100% sure what we are going to learn from it. I mean you can never have too much data but I think gearboxes are very track specific. A lot of people thought that my gears were too long for motegi in the hot version challenge but I had them that way to combat wheel spin. That's why the car had so much grip and accelerated well on exit. You werent over powering the tires and could get on the gas early. Any acceleration benefits from a closer transmission would have been lost from having to manage wheel spin.

We all know that a custom transmission is faster. I think that this is going to leave us with "this car on this track" data and not be specifically helpful. I believe that any gains/losses from closer and longer gears is going to be too small to measure and be hidden by driver error.

 

[Otaliema]

What I was thinking of with the idea of a gap based challenge is the tester sets a base lap with the stock transmission on the specified track, then they test all of the custom transmissions comparing to the stock, just like how we test tunes in the challenges, test the original, then see the improvements.

Now, as the whole concept as its own event, I think that having a set time for transmission tune submissions for each track and having a little bigger window (or completely open) for testing them would work. Have multiple tracks and each track opens for tuning when the previous one closes. We could change up the tunes used to give it more variety also.

Something to think about for next year.

im not 100% sure what we are going to learn from it. I mean you can never have too much data but I think gearboxes are very track specific. A lot of people thought that my gears were too long for motegi in the hot version challenge but I had them that way to combat wheel spin. That's why the car had so much grip and accelerated well on exit. You werent over powering the tires and could get on the gas early. Any acceleration benefits from a closer transmission would have been lost from having to manage wheel spin.

We all know that a custom transmission is faster. I think that this is going to leave us with "this car on this track" data and not be specifically helpful. I believe that any gains/losses from closer and longer gears is going to be too small to measure and be hidden by driver error.

Ok lets drop the idea of trying to learn anything from this and just have a simple quick challenge for the year end that wont have such a large time investment at this time of year.
Gap or best lap?

 

[Lionheart2113]

Again it is the same problem as before, you can't make a competition where drivers are being tested against themselves. A fast, consistent driver might be able to gain a second whereas a slower, less consistent driver might be able to gain 4 seconds.

Isn't that kind of what we do with lap times in every challenge or am I reading that wrong?
Testers A&B can handle loose race cars, Tester C cannot. So the loose tune would lose scoring time with Tester C.
Now another tune comes up that is neutral Testers A&B once again do just fine with this tune, meanwhile Tester C can handle this one and gets a better lap time. So the neutral tune would likely be victorious when the average lap times are counted.
What I'm trying to say is that we rely heavily on testers putting their right foot down and driving to THEIR limits with every tune. And most if not all, don't give up on a tune until they feel that they got what they could out of it them and are pretty consistent. We've all tested and we all share that inner competition of trying to get the best lap times. (We wouldn't be playing the game if we weren't competitive!) I don't see what the issue would be if we followed the standard graph layout like in previous challenges (averages) with this one. And maybe take into consideration driving the stock transmission and looking for improvements like @DaBomm4 idea. But again, if I'm missing something as far as that goes, please correct me.

I agree with @ImToLegitToQuit that transmissions are probably more track specific, and in my opinion, sometimes more than suspension changes. But I would like to point out that there would be more to show in this challenge than just long gear vs short gear. I am interested in seeing results from this because (you might call me crazy or that I'm just imagining) different transmission setups will make a car behave differently. (I know that is in total disagreement with a few top tuners) Like mentioned, sometimes gearing is used to solve grip issues. But, I'm reminded of a test I did back in GT5 where I kept all the gearing the same except for 1st. At Grand Valley Speedway, 1st gear wasn't used but yet there was over .400 difference between the 2 transmissions in lap times. I think I'm pretty consistent and GVS is one of my testing tracks, so I'd like to think that driver error was not a factor. I could feel that the faster of the 2 had slightly better rotation, and I've seen the same results in GT6 especially on the FITT BTCC Ford Focus. Is it because of an auto transmission or what? I have no idea.

But if we wanna put this contest on the back burner or in the trash, to have a nice little shootout for the end of year, I'm up for that too. I'm sure I'm like everyone else...lets just get a reason to hit the track!👍

 

[DolHaus]

Isn't that kind of what we do with lap times in every challenge or am I reading that wrong?
Testers A&B can handle loose race cars, Tester C cannot. So the loose tune would lose scoring time with Tester C.
Now another tune comes up that is neutral Testers A&B once again do just fine with this tune, meanwhile Tester C can handle this one and gets a better lap time. So the neutral tune would likely be victorious when the average lap times are counted.
What I'm trying to say is that we rely heavily on testers putting their right foot down and driving to THEIR limits with every tune. And most if not all, don't give up on a tune until they feel that they got what they could out of it them and are pretty consistent. We've all tested and we all share that inner competition of trying to get the best lap times. (We wouldn't be playing the game if we weren't competitive!) I don't see what the issue would be if we followed the standard graph layout like in previous challenges (averages) with this one. And maybe take into consideration driving the stock transmission and looking for improvements like @DaBomm4 idea. But again, if I'm missing something as far as that goes, please correct me.

I agree with @ImToLegitToQuit that transmissions are probably more track specific, and in my opinion, sometimes more than suspension changes. But I would like to point out that there would be more to show in this challenge than just long gear vs short gear. I am interested in seeing results from this because (you might call me crazy or that I'm just imagining) different transmission setups will make a car behave differently. (I know that is in total disagreement with a few top tuners) Like mentioned, sometimes gearing is used to solve grip issues. But, I'm reminded of a test I did back in GT5 where I kept all the gearing the same except for 1st. At Grand Valley Speedway, 1st gear wasn't used but yet there was over .400 difference between the 2 transmissions in lap times. I think I'm pretty consistent and GVS is one of my testing tracks, so I'd like to think that driver error was not a factor. I could feel that the faster of the 2 had slightly better rotation, and I've seen the same results in GT6 especially on the FITT BTCC Ford Focus. Is it because of an auto transmission or what? I have no idea.

But if we wanna put this contest on the back burner or in the trash, to have a nice little shootout for the end of year, I'm up for that too. I'm sure I'm like everyone else...lets just get a reason to hit the track!👍

The difference in time between drivers isn't a problem if they are testing all cars and the times are averaged out, if however you are purely testing just against your own performance using just one point of reference then these differences become a major problem.

eg.
Driver A using own transmission
Stock 0:58.600
Custom 0:57.100
(0:01.500 gain)

Driver B using own transmission
Stock 1:02.500
Custom 0:59.000
(0:03.500 gain)

Does this mean driver B has a better transmission? No, just means that their gain was higher because the percentage scale has changed

 

[Lionheart2113]

The difference in time between drivers isn't a problem if they are testing all cars and the times are averaged out, if however you are purely testing just against your own performance using just one point of reference then these differences become a major problem.

eg.
Driver A using own transmission
Stock 0:58.600
Custom 0:57.100
(0:01.500 gain)

Driver B using own transmission
Stock 1:02.500
Custom 0:59.000
(0:03.500 gain)

Does this mean driver B has a better transmission? No, just means that their gain was higher because the percentage scale has changed

Oh ok, you mean the infamous tester using their own tune in the results. Yeah that is still an issue...

 

[DolHaus]

Oh ok, you mean the infamous tester using their own tune in the results. Yeah that is still an issue...

The tester isn't the issue, its the fact that not every car is being tested by every driver, that's where the problem lies

 

[Otaliema]

The tester isn't the issue, its the fact that not every car is being tested by every driver, that's where the problem lies

So a one car challenge with gap would be no issue than as every tester is using the same car. so the gains should be the same.

 

[DolHaus]

So a one car challenge with gap would be no issue than as every tester is using the same car. so the gains should be the same.

That would work much better but the gap would become irrelevant, fastest lap would still have the biggest gap so why waste time doing unnecessary maths.

Standard testing process is the only way to go, tuners post transmission settings, testers drive them and post times. Simple and fair

 

[Otaliema]

That would work much better but the gap would become irrelevant, fastest lap would still have the biggest gap so why waste time doing unnecessary maths.

OK now I am seeing your point clearly now. It was there prior just a bit fuzzy. If the car @praiano63 builds has a slower stock time but similar at speed time it wins by defaults on a gap because of he larger gain. and vise versa. and not just the driver gains but the car it's self can have a large impact on a gap challenge.

 

[DolHaus]

OK now I am seeing your point clearly now. It was there prior just a bit fuzzy. If the car @praiano63 builds has a slower stock time but similar at speed time it wins by defaults on a gap because of he larger gain. and vise versa. and not just the driver gains but the car it's self can have a large impact on a gap challenge.

We can use what ever car and what ever track you fancy, then we just need to use the standard tuning (trans only) and testing process (don't know if DC will really be viable but that's up to you) to find a winner. No need to overcomplicate things because it will just cause irregularities and confusion

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

IF.....AND I STRESS THE WORD IF! I was to plan a challenge in the future as a "Blind" Challenge, would anyone be interested? The way it would work is like this:ALL TUNES would be submitted to the host via PM only, the host would then post all tunes in random order giving each tune a number (and corresponding number on the car). Testers would then test the tunes not knowing whose tune it is, would be preferred to have testers not test their own but that likely would not happen. But would be fun to watch as everyone tries to figure out which tune belonged to which tuner. @Motor City Hami did something like this in GT5, would be harder without sharing but doable.

Thoughts?

 

[Otaliema]

IF.....AND I STRESS THE WORD IF! I was to plan a challenge in the future as a "Blind" Challenge, would anyone be interested? The way it would work is like this:ALL TUNES would be submitted to the host via PM only, the host would then post all tunes in random order giving each tune a number (and corresponding number on the car). Testers would then test the tunes not knowing whose tune it is, would be preferred to have testers not test their own but that likely would not happen. But would be fun to watch as everyone tries to figure out which tune belonged to which tuner. @Motor City Hami did something like this in GT5, would be harder without sharing but doable.

Thoughts?

Could be fun, tuners testing would have to test their own cars or you would need to find a tuner test driver who just tests the tuners cars, the catch is, this will not give a accurate balance as some of the tuners (me) are slower than most everyone else some are pretty quick (hami praiano, you, etc), using the average for the tester in terms of a lap time is the same as just not having a time for them.
Although 💡 we could use the tuners test drive average from the times for the other cars, so it's a little bit of incentive to push every car harder cause that will lower the time we get for own car. Than for DC score they drive their car at the end and rate it he same way they did all the others (like we do already, we shouldn't use the average DC from the other cars as this could result in artificially inflated DC scores imo)

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Ideally, I would really like to try and recruit 5 or 6 testers at least, and not allow tuners to test. Can we find that many?

 

[Otaliema]

Ideally, I would really like to try and recruit 5 or 6 testers at least, and not allow tuners to test. Can we find that many?

if its a one or to class event, I think yes we could, on average the lower PP brackets have more testers than the higher but if we only have one group, we could get 5-10 testers. But 40% of our testers are our tuners. So....I think the deterrent is the time investment with no tangible reward, with out gifting in the game it's hard to offer anything to the testers, but than the question is how do we give "awards" to the testers, if we go based on fast lap, the slower drivers wont be as inclined to test cause the aliens will just take them.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

The dilemma is finding enough testers, or tuners willing to tune one class and test a second. Would rather do a one class challenge. Still just a thought, wanted to measure interest to decide whether or not to pursue. Would not be until next year obviously.

Edit: Another way around it would be to divide the tunes into 2 groups for testing?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Forgive me for the double post.

But, here is what I was thinking: 450pp on Sports Hard, S2000 vs RX8, maybe find another car or 2.
430 Scuderia vs 458, tuned to 550pp on Sports Soft. Maybe again add a car or 2 but not likely. Pick one class and test the other, or get assigned a class to tune and test to keep the balance.

 

[DolHaus]

IF.....AND I STRESS THE WORD IF! I was to plan a challenge in the future as a "Blind" Challenge, would anyone be interested? The way it would work is like this:ALL TUNES would be submitted to the host via PM only, the host would then post all tunes in random order giving each tune a number (and corresponding number on the car). Testers would then test the tunes not knowing whose tune it is, would be preferred to have testers not test their own but that likely would not happen. But would be fun to watch as everyone tries to figure out which tune belonged to which tuner. @Motor City Hami did something like this in GT5, would be harder without sharing but doable.

Thoughts?

I thought about this a while back and it would definitely be an interesting twist 👍
Maybe a two class challenge where you can only enter one as a tuner and one as a tester, I enjoy both sides of the contests and wouldn't want to have to bow out from one side in order to do the other. If the two classes were as equal as possible then you might be able to make it one contest split into two classes perhaps, although I don't know if that would work unless you matched and split the drivers based on previous testing performance (i.e You and myself generally run similar laps, I tune car A and test B, you tune car B and test A)

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

My point would ultimately be to see what would happen if no name was attached to a tune, AND the tuner could not test their own. I can be fast in my own tune because I know the line and entry point it needs, still not always the fastest in my own though. If we could get enough testers for each class willing to not tune for one, it would allow others in even if they are uncomfortable with testing. Would take extra time to recruit and set up before getting started.

Just a thought, not sure it will/could happen.

 

[praiano63]

IF.....AND I STRESS THE WORD IF! I was to plan a challenge in the future as a "Blind" Challenge, would anyone be interested? The way it would work is like this:ALL TUNES would be submitted to the host via PM only, the host would then post all tunes in random order giving each tune a number (and corresponding number on the car). Testers would then test the tunes not knowing whose tune it is, would be preferred to have testers not test their own but that likely would not happen. But would be fun to watch as everyone tries to figure out which tune belonged to which tuner. @Motor City Hami did something like this in GT5, would be harder without sharing but doable.

Thoughts?

Here is the shootout, CSLACR organize it andthe idea was mine if i remember well. Good concept.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-nurburgring-nordschleife-shootout-v2-0.272696/

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Here is the shootout, CSLACR organize it andthe idea was mine if i remember well. Good concept.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-nurburgring-nordschleife-shootout-v2-0.272696/

Oh sorry, my mistake. I was not part of it, did not feel comfortable with my tuning back then. Think i am getting better.

 

[xande1959]

IF.....AND I STRESS THE WORD IF! I was to plan a challenge in the future as a "Blind" Challenge, would anyone be interested? The way it would work is like this:ALL TUNES would be submitted to the host via PM only, the host would then post all tunes in random order giving each tune a number (and corresponding number on the car). Testers would then test the tunes not knowing whose tune it is, would be preferred to have testers not test their own but that likely would not happen. But would be fun to watch as everyone tries to figure out which tune belonged to which tuner. @Motor City Hami did something like this in GT5, would be harder without sharing but doable

- in GT5 Hami raffled cars could not use the official colors

 

[DolHaus]

Here is the shootout, CSLACR organize it andthe idea was mine if i remember well. Good concept.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-nurburgring-nordschleife-shootout-v2-0.272696/

In this shootout the scores/times were hidden rather than the identity of the tuners responsible for each car, this would work fine but I would be hesitant to apply both rules in one contest because it would lead to a very quiet thread

 

[Motor City Hami]

This one... The FITT 535PP FR Challenge... https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-535pp-fr-tuner-challenge.287731/

It will actually be easier to do now without car sharing. The problem with GT5 was that you could only share six cars at a time. I made a second account and shared 12 of the cars and I think @biffa3 hosted a couple. All tuners gifted their car to my account so they actually picked the colors.

@Bowtie-muscle it will be a bit of work in GT6, but you do not need to build every car. You just need a better mechanism for us to send the typed out tune to you. Maybe make a Google doc and insist that we submit through that as Tuner #1, #2, #3, etc? Plus, we could tell you a paint color and you could use the new studio method of capturing the photos. This way, all photos will be shot the same way. It might give it away if you use our photos.

The most fun in that competition was watching everyone try to guess the tuners. I would definitely be in for another one like this.

 

[Ronald6]

I like the idea of a "blind lottery" style challenge. Count me in.

Personally, after the discussion we had during the last challenge about tuners testing their own tunes, I have no problem with it. I haven't seen any abuse of the system yet.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

This one... The FITT 535PP FR Challenge... https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-535pp-fr-tuner-challenge.287731/

It will actually be easier to do now without car sharing. The problem with GT5 was that you could only share six cars at a time. I made a second account and shared 12 of the cars and I think @biffa3 hosted a couple. All tuners gifted their car to my account so they actually picked the colors.

@Bowtie-muscle it will be a bit of work in GT6, but you do not need to build every car. You just need a better mechanism for us to send the typed out tune to you. Maybe make a Google doc and insist that we submit through that as Tuner #1, #2, #3, etc? Plus, we could tell you a paint color and you could use the new studio method of capturing the photos. This way, all photos will be shot the same way. It might give it away if you use our photos.

The most fun in that competition was watching everyone try to guess the tuners. I would definitely be in for another one like this.

I use a tuning template in my garage and just edit for each tune, shared it here a few pages back, if every tuner used it and PMed me the tune, I could then check them, shuffle them, and I would post publicly after assigning a number or color to each tune. Not using the tuners color for identity reasons. Do it like Reservoir Dogs.....Mr.White, Mr.Black, Mr.Pink and so on. That really is not the issue.

I like the idea of a "blind lottery" style challenge. Count me in.



Personally, after the discussion we had during the last challenge about tuners testing their own tunes, I have no problem with it. I haven't seen any abuse of the system yet.

There has not been any abuse per say, but every tuner is fast in their own tune, plus there is some extent of placebo effect. For example, when testing, you know you are getting ready to test tuner A and think, looking forward to this as I always enjoy his tunes. Or it's, oh boy, I have to test tuner B?, I always struggle with his tunes. If you have no idea of who's tune it is, that would not be present. But if you were to test your own knowing it's yours, it may slightly skew the results, maybe not.
Just a thought right now.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Not using the tuners color for identity reasons. Do it like Reservoir Dogs.....Mr.White, Mr.Black, Mr.Pink and so on.

So by looking at these photos, which car would you have picked as mine? People had fun with the color choices, trying to hide their identity.

 

[DaBomm4]

So by looking at these photos, which car would you have picked as mine? People had fun with the color choices, trying to hide their identity.

I have a feeling that the Ferrari is the one you tuned.

 

[Lionheart2113]

So by looking at these photos, which car would you have picked as mine? People had fun with the color choices, trying to hide their identity.

It was a classic challenge and a blast to be a part of. The thing that gave yours away was gear ratios, but I didn't make the connection right away. None of us did until you said to take a closer look.

Edit:
@DaBomm4 ...is it because the Ferrari is so pretty?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

99% positive you tuned the best looking one, the Camaro. Others chose green to throw people off thinking it was you.


Does it sound like a good car choice? S2000 vs RX8 and the 2 Ferrari's that is. Or would a larger group of cars be better?

If enough tuners would also be willing to test, than any advantage gained by testing your own would be minimal I suppose.