FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[DaBomm4]

Or would some testers be willing to test both ways if they are comfortable with it? I would be willing to test both ways, but I don't know if I would have enough time to test with my break schedule.

 

[DolHaus]

Or would some testers be willing to test both ways if they are comfortable with it? I would be willing to test both ways, but I don't know if I would have enough time to test with my break schedule.

It would be easier for manual drivers to use auto than it would for auto users to use manual

 

[Lionheart2113]

It would be easier for manual drivers to use auto than it would for auto users to use manual

Truer words have never been spoken.👍 Unless we're talking about using an old Fiat at Daytona!

 

[DaBomm4]

Truer words have never been spoken.👍 Unless we're talking about using an old Fiat at Daytona!

Yes! Time to take the Fiat 500 F '68 to Daytona and Indy. And I very valid point @DolHaus.

 

[Otaliema]

Final draft for the transmission challenge. If you have any questions about anything now is the time to ask. *this is not the start of the challenge in anyway this is iron out possible bugs or over sights.*

FITT Transmission tuning challenge​

This is a quick challenge to finish out the year and not interfere too much with the year end holidays.
We will be using a prebuilt car, @ImToLegitToQuit RE Amemiya RX-7 the following settings have been changed to better fit the car to Grand Valley East.
LSD 9/8/10
Aero Front 150 Rear 280
These changes have been approved by @ImToLegitToQuit

All participants should be be familiar with FITT standardized rules

The track that all tuning and testing will be done at is; Grand Valley East

Time line ​

Dec 8th-15th Tuning of the transmissions.
8th-17th Testing

Tuning rules ​

5 of the 6 gears must be changed by a minimum of 0.010 from stock values for the Final drive and Top speed slider setting.
The Final Drive doesn't have to be changed but that is encouraged.
You CAN NOT use the transmission that @ImToLegitToQuit built for the car. *yes you will need to rebuild it for the challenge Tolegit if you tune for this one*
Due to the highly compressed nature of the challenge and the time of year, Once you submit your transmission it’s FINAL typo corrections are permitted.

Testing ​

Go ahead and build the car and start putting down laps at GVE to get yourself familiar with the track and car combo it’s not changing for this challenge. Once a Transmission is posted test it, it’s final.
This is going to be a little different from normal, as we are looking for a time difference you will need to set a base lap time. with the stock 5 speed transmission that comes from the dealer.
All your lap times for the tuned transmissions will be subtracted from this base lap to find the difference. I suggest using a solid but not blistering fast lap as you base lap, which you use is upto you.
As for your DC score, as always its a preference score, but this time it’s focused entirely on the transmission of the car, example things to consider;
did the acceleration improve, how was wheel spin, did you have enough speed for each gear?

Tune posting​

To reduce the headache of tuning the transmission all tunes need to be posted as follows.
Initial Final Gear (IFG)
Top Speed (TS) km/h & mph Google speed converter when switching to km/h round to nearest 10 km/h when switching to MPH round to nearest 5 MPH
Gears
1
2
3
4
5
6
Final Gear

Results posting I ask that you post your results for the tuners in the same order as the list for tuners this reduces the chance I will switch up a time. I also ask you put your Base lap time first.
All differences will be shown on the scoring page so you don’t need to do the math if you don’t want to.

Tuners;


Testers;

 

[Motor City Hami]

I'll go draw up a final draft for the challenge and post it so we can sort out questions about it. I have finished half of the Pro class today I'm going cross eyed looking at the dash of he Jag again and the tach on the Aston just bugs me, it's backwards from every other car I've seen, it rev's right to left compared to normal left to right.

I have another idea for car selection. We could pick something new so that test drivers are not just running the Jag again. We could have @praiano63 build a tune but not tune the gearbox. His tunes are fast for most. Thoughts?

 

[Otaliema]

I have another idea for car selection. We could pick something new so that test drivers are not just running the Jag again. We could have @praiano63 build a tune but not tune the gearbox. His tunes are fast for most. Thoughts?

That is a great idea his tunes are smoking good. I had originally chosen the RX-7 @ImToLegitToQuit built a few challenges ago so we are running a car we haven't just ran to death but a fresh car would be good too.

 

[DolHaus]

Final draft for the transmission challenge. If you have any questions about anything now is the time to ask. *this is not the start of the challenge in anyway this is iron out possible bugs or over sights.*

FITT Transmission tuning challenge​

This is a quick challenge to finish out the year and not interfere too much with the year end holidays.
We will be using a prebuilt car, @ImToLegitToQuit RE Amemiya RX-7 the following settings have been changed to better fit the car to Grand Valley East.
LSD 9/8/10
Aero Front 150 Rear 280
These changes have been approved by @ImToLegitToQuit

All participants should be be familiar with FITT standardized rules

The track that all tuning and testing will be done at is; Grand Valley East

Time line ​

Dec 8th-15th Tuning of the transmissions.
8th-17th Testing

Tuning rules ​

5 of the 6 gears must be changed by a minimum of 0.010 from stock values for the Final drive and Top speed slider setting.
The Final Drive doesn’t have to be changed but that is encouraged.
You CAN NOT use the transmission that @ImToLegitToQuit built for the car. *yes you will need to rebuild it for the challenge Tolegit if you tune for this one*
Due to the highly compressed nature of the challenge and the time of year, Once you submit your transmission it’s FINAL typo corrections are permitted.

Testing ​

Go ahead and build the car and start putting down laps at GVE to get yourself familiar with the track and car combo it’s not changing for this challenge. Once a Transmission is posted test it, it’s final.
This is going to be a little different from normal, as we are looking for a time difference you will need to set a base lap time. with the stock 5 speed transmission that comes from the dealer.
All your lap times for the tuned transmissions will be subtracted from this base lap to find the difference. I suggest using a solid but not blistering fast lap as you base lap, which you use is upto you.
As for your DC score, as always its a preference score, but this time it’s focused entirely on the transmission of the car, example things to consider;
did the acceleration improve, how was wheel spin, did you have enough speed for each gear?

Tune posting​

To reduce the headache of tuning the transmission all tunes need to be posted as follows.
Initial Final Gear (IFG)
Top Speed (TS) km/h & mph Google speed converter when switching to km/h round to nearest 10 km/h when switching to MPH round to nearest 5 MPH
Gears
1
2
3
4
5
6
Final Gear

Results posting I ask that you post your results for the tuners in the same order as the list for tuners this reduces the chance I will switch up a time. I also ask you put your Base lap time first.
All differences will be shown on the scoring page so you don’t need to do the math if you don’t want to.

Tuners;


Testers;

I'm not sure I understand the testing process

 

[Otaliema]

just a thought here but maybe we could use both @ImToLegitToQuit RX-7 and if @praiano63 wants to build us a car (minus the transmission) have that a second choice for tuners to use. Varitiy is a good thing right?

I'm not sure I understand the testing process

With this test we are looking at how much of an improvement a custom transmission has over a stock(un-tuned) transmission. So to get that we need a base time with the stock(un-tuned) transmission to compare it too.
I was running avgerage of 1:09.100 with the RX-7 at GVE on a stock five speed transmission. So I would use a base time of 1:09.100 my hot lap was 1:08.843 and my cold lap was 1:10.454 but 7/10 of the laps where just about 1:09.100. Now the question is how much faster is the car going to get just slapping a custom transmission on it. Lets say I start running 1:07.800 average, hot lap of 1:06.989 that gives me a difference of 1.3 seconds avg & 1.854 hot lap.
Now this brings up an interesting conundrum....do the testers submit an average lap over 10 laps or the best lap....for both base time and challenge time cause it needs to be the same for both can't use an average for the base line and hot lap for the challenge time.

 

[Ronald6]

Bold claims, I look forward to seeing you put your words into action

Hmmmm...

A challenge where each tuner picks one tuning option: suspension, LSD, or Tranny?
Thoughts.

 

[DaBomm4]

Now this brings up an interesting conundrum....do the testers submit an average lap over 10 laps or the best lap....for both base time and challenge time cause it needs to be the same for both can't use an average for the base line and hot lap for the challenge time.

I would think both as hot laps would be fine because the tune is/should be stable enough to give consistent times, thus allowing the testers to be able to really push a few good laps per tune. I have not driven @ImToLegitToQuit's RX-7 tune yet.

 

[DolHaus]

just a thought here but maybe we could use both @ImToLegitToQuit RX-7 and if @praiano63 wants to build us a car (minus the transmission) have that a second choice for tuners to use. Varitiy is a good thing right?


With this test we are looking at how much of an improvement a custom transmission has over a stock(un-tuned) transmission. So to get that we need a base time with the stock(un-tuned) transmission to compare it too.
I was running avgerage of 1:09.100 with the RX-7 at GVE on a stock five speed transmission. So I would use a base time of 1:09.100 my hot lap was 1:08.843 and my cold lap was 1:10.454 but 7/10 of the laps where just about 1:09.100. Now the question is how much faster is the car going to get just slapping a custom transmission on it. Lets say I start running 1:07.800 average, hot lap of 1:06.989 that gives me a difference of 1.3 seconds avg & 1.854 hot lap.
Now this brings up an interesting conundrum....do the testers submit an average lap over 10 laps or the best lap....for both base time and challenge time cause it needs to be the same for both can't use an average for the base line and hot lap for the challenge time.

I'm still unsure of what the point of this would be? Surely an easier way would be to just post transmission setups and test them all to see which is fastest like we usually do, we already know that the car gets automatically faster by sticking a custom trans on it in place of a stock unit

 

[Otaliema]

I would think both as hot laps would be fine because the tune is/should be stable enough to give consistent times, thus allowing the testers to be able to really push a few good laps per tune. I have not driven @ImToLegitToQuit's RX-7 tune yet.

True enough my hot lap was only 0.200 second faster than my average lap.

I'm still unsure of what the point of this would be? Surely an easier way would be to just post transmission setups and test them all to see which is fastest like we usually do, we already know that the car gets automatically faster by sticking a custom trans on it in place of a stock unit

Agreed we do know that but one of the big questions is how much faster, is it really truly worth the headache for normal racing or will a stock or fixed ratio transmission due most of the time. That's what the base lap is for, to find out just what gain is achieved from a custom transmission.
And than of course best lap podium would be given to the one that got the most gain. thus the fastest transmission.

 

[DolHaus]

True enough my hot lap was only 0.200 second faster than my average lap.


Agreed we do know that but one of the big questions is how much faster, is it really truly worth the headache for normal racing or will a stock or fixed ratio transmission due most of the time. That's what the base lap is for, to find out just what gain is achieved from a custom transmission.
And than of course best lap podium would be given to the one that got the most gain. thus the fastest transmission.

Is that really the big question? Surely the bigger question is what method of transmission tuning is the best. If there is an option to fit a FCT for what ever competition you are entering then you'd be a fool not to even if you just change the top speed.
When I've said in the past that the transmission doesn't make that much of a difference I was talking about a basically tuned full custom Vs. a perfectly tuned one, testing it against a stock gearbox is a waste of time.

Testing against our own performance is also filled with problems, there are so many variables there and the results would be all over the place

 

[Otaliema]

Is that really the big question? Surely the bigger question is what method of transmission tuning is the best. If there is an option to fit a FCT for what ever competition you are entering then you'd be a fool not to even if you just change the top speed.
When I've said in the past that the transmission doesn't make that much of a difference I was talking about a basically tuned full custom Vs. a perfectly tuned one, testing it against a stock gearbox is a waste of time.

Testing against our own performance is also filled with problems, there are so many variables there and the results would be all over the place

Ok you have made your case. Will not test against our self's but will do normal testing. each tune hot lapped at GVE.

 

[DolHaus]

Ok you have made your case. Will not test against our self's but will do normal testing. each tune hot lapped at GVE.

Sorry man, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or embarrass you by any means, its just that there is no need to overcomplicate things or spend time working towards something that we already know. The concept was good and for collecting the data you were after it would have worked great, unfortunately it's sort of like building a rocket to find out what colour the moon is when all you needed to do was look up

 

[Otaliema]

Sorry man, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or embarrass you by any means, its just that there is no need to overcomplicate things or spend time working towards something that we already know. The concept was good and for collecting the data you were after it would have worked great, unfortunately it's sort of like building a rocket to find out what colour the moon is when all you needed to do was look up

Ya didn't just made stop and think about it and see if I want that Dayak should gather it on my own or in a non challenge formate. The variety of ways we tune transmissions will show strength and weakness of each and show which type if build is consistanty faster

 

[DaBomm4]

Ya didn't just made stop and think about it and see if I want that Dayak should gather it on my own or in a non challenge formate. The variety of ways we tune transmissions will show strength and weakness of each and show which type if build is consistanty faster

So, maybe have a side, constantly running event that involves a different track each month, with just the transmission allowed for adjustments? There can be other challenges going on along side it because it is not as intensive with the tuning or testing. I may have an idea that is way over my head, but it works in my head as I am typing it.

 

[praiano63]

It would be a honnor to present a tune for the test.
Need to be a fun car, easy to fast lap without been very technical to drive for the regularity and with a peaky power range.
For high torque engine , there will be almost no differences between a stock 5 or six gears trans and custom, like for example on my TVR TUSCAN SPEED 6 `00 who have been tuned with the stock trans , because it´s as performant as a custom one due to the torque (also to the good original build).

So i would think about my CATERHAM SEVEN FIREBLADE `02 with sport soft tires , those softer tires to help the regularity.
I did a test with the 6 speed trans ,who is well setted for GVS with a top speed corresponding to the track, against the fully custom.
The difference was 0.500 faster for the custom trans.
The two trans have exactly the same performance from the3rd to 4th ,5th and 6th gear.
The only place on track where you can make the gap are out the first hairpin , out the slow left before first tunel and out the slow left right before accelerating for the straight.
There , if you have closer 2d to 3rd gear to launch faster out those corners and perform a better retake, you will for sure make this half second gap more or less.

Without speaking of the case of low speed track and high speed track where the use of custom trans are obviously faster to fit better to the track, those are the only conditions where you can check clearly the difference and vantage of a custom gearbox, during the retake out of slow corners where you´re able to break the inertia of the car with closer 1st 2d and 3rd gears.
On Eiger short track for example, the difference would be bigger than this.

Have a good day everybody.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

 

[Otaliema]

It would be a honnor to present a tune for the test.
Need to be a fun car, easy to fast lap without been very technical to drive for the regularity and with a peaky power range.
For high torque engine , there will be almost no differences between a stock 5 or six gears trans and custom, like for example on my TVR TUSCAN SPEED 6 `00 who have been tuned with the stock trans , because it´s as performant as a custom one due to the torque (also to the good original build).

So i would think about my CATERHAM SEVEN FIREBLADE `02 with sport soft tires , those softer tires to help the regularity.
I did a test with the 6 speed trans ,who is well setted for GVS with a top speed corresponding to the track, against the fully custom.
The difference was 0.500 faster for the custom trans.
The two trans have exactly the same performance from the3rd to 4th ,5th and 6th gear.
The only place on track where you can make the gap are out the first hairpin , out the slow left before first tunel and out the slow left right before accelerating for the straight.
There , if you have closer 2d to 3rd gear to launch faster out those corners and perform a better retake, you will for sure make this half second gap more or less.

Without speaking of the case of low speed track and high speed track where the use of custom trans are obviously faster to fit better to the track, those are the only conditions where you can check clearly the difference and vantage of a custom gearbox, during the retake out of slow corners where you´re able to break the inertia of the car with closer 1st 2d and 3rd gears.
On Eiger short track for example, the difference would be bigger than this.

Have a good day everybody.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

Thank you sir, I think having two cars would be good, I'll give you free pick on the car 525 pp to match the RX-7 that is in use already I'll leave the tires at SM on the RX-7 you can put any tire you want to bring you car choice to as close the RX-7 as possible. As you said easy and fast, so we are not worried about the car stepping out on is as we come out of a corner.

 

[praiano63]

Thank you sir, I think having two cars would be good, I'll give you free pick on the car 525 pp to match the RX-7 that is in use already I'll leave the tires at SM on the RX-7 you can put any tire you want to bring you car choice to as close the RX-7 as possible. As you said easy and fast, so we are not worried about the car stepping out on is as we come out of a corner.

It´s just a suggestion, i don´t think we have to match the cars , the main important thing is the gap between the 2 gearboxes , not the perf.
By the way, the link of the RE Amemiya RX-7 is not working and i can´t see the car in ImToLegitToQuit garage.

 

[Otaliema]

It´s just a suggestion, i don´t think we have to match the cars , the main important thing is the gap between the 2 gearboxes , not the perf.
By the way, the link of the RE Amemiya RX-7 is not working and i can´t see the car in ImToLegitToQuit garage.

Fixed. Well I suggested a Gap/Difference podium, but it was pointed out that it could have issues with the results being very scattered and could cause issues was looking at just doing best lap.
A Gap/difference set up would allow any car to be used as a second as it wont mater how fast it actually is just how much the transmission helps it.

@DolHaus what do you think if we have two cars a Gap race would allow for any car to be picked as it won't matter how fast it is just how much it was improved while a best lap would require the car to be pretty much equal to the existing RX-7

[URL='http://'https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/tunes/fitt-chanllenge-re-amemiya-rx-7.636/’']RE Amemiya RX-7[/URL]

That would cause the links to not work O_o how the did that happen

Edit; Bloody T key is double hitting when it shouldn't

 

[DolHaus]

Fixed. Well I suggested a Gap/Difference podium, but it was pointed out that it could have issues with the results being very scattered and could cause issues was looking at just doing best lap.
A Gap/difference set up would allow any car to be used as a second as it wont mater how fast it actually is just how much the transmission helps it.

@DolHaus what do you think if we have two cars a Gap race would allow for any car to be picked as it won't matter how fast it is just how much it was improved while a best lap would require the car to be pretty much equal to the existing RX-7

[URL='http://'https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/tunes/fitt-chanllenge-re-amemiya-rx-7.636/’']RE Amemiya RX-7[/URL]

That would cause the links to not work O_o how the did that happen

Edit; Bloody T key is double hitting when it shouldn't

Explain this again? I don't really understand the concept

 

[Otaliema]

Explain this again? I don't really understand the concept

With a Gap or Difference challenge the actual lap times are not what we consider but the improvement of the lap time from a stock/fixed ratio transmission to a full custom transmission.
Exsample;
RX-7
Stock hot lap; 1:08.868
Custom Hot lap; 1:08.536
Gap -0.332

Elise 111R *just an exsample*
Stock Hot lap; 1:15.565
Custom Hot lap; 1:14.956
Gap -0.606

Winner Elise even though the lap was slower it had better improvement.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

working link, just in case. car is not in my garage but is posted in the tuning database. I will put my FITT cars in m garage today. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/tunes/fitt-chanllenge-re-amemiya-rx-7.636/

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Could we just start a thread and keep it ongoing, have tuners contribute but not necessarily make it a competition?

 

[Otaliema]

Could we just start a thread and keep it ongoing, have tuners contribute but not necessarily make it a competition?

I may do that anyways just to get more data and figure what transmission type(s) work for what track type(s).

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I may do that anyways just to get more data and figure what transmission type(s) work for what track type(s).

You would be the perfect one to start this, open with your tranny guide, then ask for tuners to build tunes and show stock/fixed/full custom differences and explain the gearing process. Give lap times and show the gains, this way more cars would be used at differing pp levels. Thread would just naturally start to answer the question at hand and be helpful to those struggling with trannys or who are looking for better ways (or just different aproaches) to building them. There has been some unique approaches in the last few challenges.

 

[DolHaus]

With a Gap or Difference challenge the actual lap times are not what we consider but the improvement of the lap time from a stock/fixed ratio transmission to a full custom transmission.
Exsample;
RX-7
Stock hot lap; 1:08.868
Custom Hot lap; 1:08.536
Gap -0.332

Elise 111R *just an exsample*
Stock Hot lap; 1:15.565
Custom Hot lap; 1:14.956
Gap -0.606

Winner Elise even though the lap was slower it had better improvement.

Again it is the same problem as before, you can't make a competition where drivers are being tested against themselves. A fast, consistent driver might be able to gain a second whereas a slower, less consistent driver might be able to gain 4 seconds. Does this mean that they've won because they have the better transmission? No, it just means that their percentage gain was different.
If it is to be a competition then the cars have to be tested on a level playing field with fixed parameters, they have to be tested by a variety of drivers and averaged out to eliminate bias and variance as much as possible.
You can run it as an experiment perhaps but it won't work for a contest, even as an experiment I don't know if you would ever get conclusive results

 

[Otaliema]

Seeking second third opions here.
@Motor City Hami @praiano63 @ImToLegitToQuit and anyone else do you think a Gap challenge would pose inconsistency problems as @DolHaus is suggesting and a best lap is the best way forward for this one or will the gap race be doable as well tuned cars are consistent enough in anyone's hands to be a viable option. I know he RX-7 is highly consistent and any tune @praiano63 sets out to make stable and consistent will be such.