Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement
- Thread starter ApexVGear
- 270 comments
- 41,532 views
- 215
Signed.
This game is a joke made by people who never driven a car with manual gearbox in their entire life.
Problem existed in GT5, not it's here - obviously NOONE in PD has NEVER tried using clutch in their game. It's a shame and middle finger in the face of every racer from PD and Kaz himself, simple as that.
This game is a joke made by people who never driven a car with manual gearbox in their entire life.
Problem existed in GT5, not it's here - obviously NOONE in PD has NEVER tried using clutch in their game. It's a shame and middle finger in the face of every racer from PD and Kaz himself, simple as that.
- 3,232
- Wales
The clutch is worst when driving from a start and shifting from 1st to 2nd, in some cars I tested over 10 times and every single time it missed the gear no matter how I did it. If I then continued driving and did the same thing from a rolling start it would go into 2nd every time, then I'd test again from a launch and it would miss 2nd gear and go into N.
It really needs to be fixed, the annoying thing is that it's such a tiny issue for them to fix. Even with it fixed it's still slower than using the paddleshift, but it would be nice if it at least worked properly.
It really needs to be fixed, the annoying thing is that it's such a tiny issue for them to fix. Even with it fixed it's still slower than using the paddleshift, but it would be nice if it at least worked properly.
- 2,298
- Sauga City
- Bluntified
They probably don't want us flat shifting, that would give clutch users way too much of an advantage.
Its not that they don't want to "fix" it, they rather cripple it!
BTW, I, and many people here, have no issues, and it feels much more forgiving than in GT5. You just have to find the cars sweet spot, its usually just before you hit the red!
Its not that they don't want to "fix" it, they rather cripple it!
BTW, I, and many people here, have no issues, and it feels much more forgiving than in GT5. You just have to find the cars sweet spot, its usually just before you hit the red!
- 1,528
- Melbourne
- Conza_No1
You know, I think the GT5 clutch and GT6 clutch, are basically identical, and imo, not even worth using.
It's a shame that I can't fully utilize my G27's clutch, I tried it out in GT6, but its the same old story, you can't have any accelerator, the clutch has to be completely pressed, gear is changed, clutch completely de-pressed, then accelerator. Unfortunate.
I will say this though, it doesn't spoil the game for me entirely, its a shame, but it isn't the end of the world, for me. Most of the time if I want to be competitive, I use the paddles, and if I really want to use the shifter, I just don't use the clutch - because lets face it, it virtually hasn't been programmed in.
Most of the time, I don't worry about the clutch not working, they've done everything else properly in terms of interfacing with the cars, but I subscribe, that the 'real driving simulator' should have a 'real working clutch'.
It's a shame that I can't fully utilize my G27's clutch, I tried it out in GT6, but its the same old story, you can't have any accelerator, the clutch has to be completely pressed, gear is changed, clutch completely de-pressed, then accelerator. Unfortunate.
I will say this though, it doesn't spoil the game for me entirely, its a shame, but it isn't the end of the world, for me. Most of the time if I want to be competitive, I use the paddles, and if I really want to use the shifter, I just don't use the clutch - because lets face it, it virtually hasn't been programmed in.
Most of the time, I don't worry about the clutch not working, they've done everything else properly in terms of interfacing with the cars, but I subscribe, that the 'real driving simulator' should have a 'real working clutch'.
- 3,232
- Wales
What do you mean you have no issues? The clutch doesn't work properly (as it does in pretty much every other sim) and that's not debatable, it doesn't work like it should.
From a launch the game always does a slow 1st to 2nd shift, even with paddles. If you shift faster than the predefined really slow shift it will just go into N with the clutch. This is why driving like a real car always results in missed gears. On top of that the clutch doesn't work properly so you can't slip gears in like in real life.
No clutch slip on gear changes + if you shift too fast it will go into N. Because the game has a predefined gear change speed from 1st to 2nd gear from a launch it means that from a standstill launch you will always end up in N unless you perform a really slow shift from 1st to 2nd. It's less of an issue with the other gears because the pre-defined speed is faster for the higher gears.
Easy to test at the Goodwood Hillclimb. It only happens from launches, once you're going the game switches to the faster gear change. Still, this system is just bad.. If they want us to shift slower then they can delay the change slightly, not put us into N for driving properly.
- 2,298
- Sauga City
- Bluntified
When your standing, the game doesn't let you spin your tires while shifting from 1st to 2nd. You have to gradually take off, which in turn will give you a faster launch as your tires have full traction! I've done all the way up to NA License and the special events (Goodwood) with using the clutch, no neutral slips.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck, I'm just letting you know why it's the way it is! Sure it's nothing compared to real life but as there are different input methods for the game (wheels, controllers), the devs need to keep it an even playing field! PC sims are normally played (and some can ONLY be played) with a wheel so its the same field for everyone.
With that said, until they add a clutch button for controller users, we will suffer. Might as well make the most of it!
Read this whole thread, there's tons of info to ease your mind. Make the most of it!
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- 3,232
- Wales
Every PC sim can be played with a gamepad, loads of guys competitive in SimRaceway, iRacing and Assetto Corsa using a gamepad. In iRacing and Assetto Corsa there is a disadvantage to using paddle/sequential style shifting in a car that has a proper manual gearbox, though it is only small and it offsets the advantage of not having to use the clutch, clutch + heel/toe adds difficulty and increases the workload, not always having 2 hands on the wheel etc, having to right foot brake while blipping... Often cases paddles is still faster for most drivers because they can attack the circuit harder when they are left foot braking and have 2 hands on the wheel.
Currently the 1st to 2nd is completely broken. I just did a race and I span and stuck it into first and caught it nicely, then I put it into 2nd and it failed and N... then i tried again... clutch out and gear out, then clutch back in and gear back in... failed again... 3rd time it finally goes in.... It just ruins the gameplay, if it was somehow realistic then it would be fine but it's not at all realistic. We're already at a disadvantage with H-Clutch in GT6 without gears missing simply because the game is broken.
It does really annoy me because for example when I play Assetto Corsa I'm forced to use the clutch + shifter if I'm set to "PRO" driving mode, to use the paddles I have to go into the options and turn off the H-shifter. So in Assetto Corsa I'm always using it in the cars that use it, I enjoy driving this way. If they don't want H-shifter having a straight line advantage (which would be tiny even if it did result in that) then they should just make a delay, not miss the shift.
SimRaceway has a delay for H-shifter users, some cars can only be shifted at a certain speed, the gear will always go in as it should but there will be a delay before the shift is completed and power can be put down, to put h-shifters and paddle players on a more even playing field... though all it ultimately does is make paddle shifting the only real way to play competitive.
Currently the 1st to 2nd is completely broken. I just did a race and I span and stuck it into first and caught it nicely, then I put it into 2nd and it failed and N... then i tried again... clutch out and gear out, then clutch back in and gear back in... failed again... 3rd time it finally goes in.... It just ruins the gameplay, if it was somehow realistic then it would be fine but it's not at all realistic. We're already at a disadvantage with H-Clutch in GT6 without gears missing simply because the game is broken.
It does really annoy me because for example when I play Assetto Corsa I'm forced to use the clutch + shifter if I'm set to "PRO" driving mode, to use the paddles I have to go into the options and turn off the H-shifter. So in Assetto Corsa I'm always using it in the cars that use it, I enjoy driving this way. If they don't want H-shifter having a straight line advantage (which would be tiny even if it did result in that) then they should just make a delay, not miss the shift.
SimRaceway has a delay for H-shifter users, some cars can only be shifted at a certain speed, the gear will always go in as it should but there will be a delay before the shift is completed and power can be put down, to put h-shifters and paddle players on a more even playing field... though all it ultimately does is make paddle shifting the only real way to play competitive.
I've seen a lot of games with H shifter working (NFS Shift 1/2, TDU, Forza series, Grid and so on and so on). In most case using clutch and H shifter is generally slower then paddles.
But the clutch works! You can never miss a gear because you keep pressing gas pedal or something like that. GT5-6 has literally a most horrible clutch i EVER SEEN. My car with broken gearbox and dead clutch used to shift gears BETTER then GT6.
I really don't believe someone did it for purpose. I suppose PD staff, including Kaz, has actually never driven a manual gearbox car and they really think, that if you won't lift off you won't change gear. Or, they never tried to play their own game with clutch and H shifter, for a reason i can't explain. And i don't know which case is worse.
But the clutch works! You can never miss a gear because you keep pressing gas pedal or something like that. GT5-6 has literally a most horrible clutch i EVER SEEN. My car with broken gearbox and dead clutch used to shift gears BETTER then GT6.
I really don't believe someone did it for purpose. I suppose PD staff, including Kaz, has actually never driven a manual gearbox car and they really think, that if you won't lift off you won't change gear. Or, they never tried to play their own game with clutch and H shifter, for a reason i can't explain. And i don't know which case is worse.
- 362
- London
- MadHax
- M8DH8X
I have to agree that the clutch in GT6 is really bad and is the worst clutch in the sim world, but rather than being disrespectful and shoving a bird into peoples faces we can try and get PD's attention to fix it. After all by PD not fixing it would be like a bird in our face, so let's keep it civil people.
By the way i'm loving the new FFB i'm getting on my wheel, also the physics are much improved. GT6 IMO is now a good contender for PC sims minus the sound and clutch. Here's hoping PD can fix them through an update.
By the way i'm loving the new FFB i'm getting on my wheel, also the physics are much improved. GT6 IMO is now a good contender for PC sims minus the sound and clutch. Here's hoping PD can fix them through an update.
- 92
- United States
- StealingL2
It's such a simple fix I don't know what's taking PD so long to implement a functional clutch model. If a simple 10+ year old PC sim game like RFactor or other simbin game can get it right I don't see why PD can't. Pleasee PD give us a fully functional clutch to use. Do it for the people that invested hundreds into their G27's and T500rs's and such. The clutch is probably the only decisive factor that will make or break this game for some of us right now.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
No way, GT6 too!!!!
Incredible.
Incredible.
I was so disappointed in the clutch action in GT6 I've returned to controler.
Currently as was the case with GT5, you don't change the clutch's position with your peddle. The game manages the clutch position, you just let the game know when you want it to be disengaged.
The clutch in GT6 may as well be a button on the controller.
Ultimately this could be fixed by removing this invisible driving aid and stick to a clutch system generic to all manual/stick vehicles with a bite point of 55% depression and for slip to start at around 5%.
As OP said: Physical H shifter should always define selected gear, even if the clutch pedal has to be pressed in again (like LFL), I suspect any kind of penalty system for fast or incorrect changes will only exacerbate players further.
Currently as was the case with GT5, you don't change the clutch's position with your peddle. The game manages the clutch position, you just let the game know when you want it to be disengaged.
The clutch in GT6 may as well be a button on the controller.
Ultimately this could be fixed by removing this invisible driving aid and stick to a clutch system generic to all manual/stick vehicles with a bite point of 55% depression and for slip to start at around 5%.
As OP said: Physical H shifter should always define selected gear, even if the clutch pedal has to be pressed in again (like LFL), I suspect any kind of penalty system for fast or incorrect changes will only exacerbate players further.
- 505
- OL_APEX
Almost all pc sims i've played have almost no issues with the clutch, very free, one can shift fast and acurate, but can miss shift also if one is stupid.
On the other hand GT5 & 6 clutch is for ROBOTS!
I'm also with the FTGTC movement! Count me in for any Riots!!
On the other hand GT5 & 6 clutch is for ROBOTS!
I'm also with the FTGTC movement! Count me in for any Riots!!
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There is an other issue with the clutch besides that it is on of and the it needs to be pressed down to the flor for shifting and that the rpm limit in wich you can shift is way too low if at all nececery. That is that rearwheel driven cars will engine break stabily in an corner but if you dear to press the clutch in the rear of the car gets loos?? I drive a lot and this is not how it works. in front wheel driven cars it could make some sens but in rearwheeldriven cars it does not. This is one of the major problems on the clutch for me as I have been driving a lot with real fast cars and some actions are done with out thinking like if in doubt keep clutch in as the prevent sudden changes but in the game the result is opposite.
- 8,723
The first-to-second timer was added in GT5 Prologue as an attempt to even-out standing starts between H-pattern / clutch and sequential users online. Because the ratio gap is likely to be largest there, relatively speaking, that's where the biggest advantage could be gained from effectively "bypassing" the automated rev-matching.
In higher gears, the advantage had a diminishing return against the risk of a mis-timed shift failing (even before flat-shifting was also disallowed), because sequential shifts are progressively faster in each gear, but 100% reliable.
A little bit of history goes a long way, in that people asking for a fix are actually asking for a previous fix to be unfixed. Really, it shows that it should be covered with an option.
As a partial aside, I miss far less often in GT6 than I did in 5. And the clutch is much more progressive again than it was made in a GT5 post-Spec II update. It feels a lot like LFS, except for the "excessive" travel required, but you soon get used to that. I can control the slip to a large degree, even with peaky cars like the Cobra Coupe, and can also drag gears to some extent (it's hard to do using only the tacho / engine sound, it needs a butt-o-meter reading to be more effective).
PD just need to add options to remove all shifting checks, and we're golden.
They don't need to touch the clutch itself, just the artificial checks, please; we don't need PD misunderstanding this and potentially making it worse, and every one of us has a responsibility to that end.
In higher gears, the advantage had a diminishing return against the risk of a mis-timed shift failing (even before flat-shifting was also disallowed), because sequential shifts are progressively faster in each gear, but 100% reliable.
A little bit of history goes a long way, in that people asking for a fix are actually asking for a previous fix to be unfixed. Really, it shows that it should be covered with an option.
As a partial aside, I miss far less often in GT6 than I did in 5. And the clutch is much more progressive again than it was made in a GT5 post-Spec II update. It feels a lot like LFS, except for the "excessive" travel required, but you soon get used to that. I can control the slip to a large degree, even with peaky cars like the Cobra Coupe, and can also drag gears to some extent (it's hard to do using only the tacho / engine sound, it needs a butt-o-meter reading to be more effective).
PD just need to add options to remove all shifting checks, and we're golden.
They don't need to touch the clutch itself, just the artificial checks, please; we don't need PD misunderstanding this and potentially making it worse, and every one of us has a responsibility to that end.
- 2,523
- South Florida
- Organ-Donor
I got my G27 for GT5. The excitement quickly turned into frustration. Yes the force feedback is great but the clutch not working completely ruins it. Now I pretty much just use the paddles, leaving the clutch and h pattern to waste (the main reason I got the wheel). I don't play pc sims so I'm pretty much stuck with a wheel that has its main features missing.
- 331
- Addison, TX
- MX5_Racer_69
I read your post ... but I'm just checking ... so you're saying they just need to fix the shift to neutral problem? Or did I misunderstand? Because if that's what you are saying, then I agree completely. Those of us that drive a manual car in real life, both on the track and as a daily driver can attest ... I have never, ever, missed a shift and ended up in neutral. I have missed a shift and gone into 3rd instead of 5th. Stuff like that happens. But I never end up in neutral with the engine rpms over revving. If they fix this, then it's a workable solution, imho.
- 3,232
- Wales
When I first got my current car I ended up in 3rd instead of first a few times, and in 1st instead of reverse a few times before I got used to the feel and little "charms" of the gearbox. Never grinded a gear nor have I ever ended up in N! Software can't model the "feel" of a gearbox (as it would be down to the hardware, and every gearbox feels very different) so it can't really ever mimic the above.
The issue though is the clutch, in GT5 it had no slip at all from a standstill.. GT6 has actually addressed that and you can pull away like a real car with the clutch, but the slip once you're going is not there, I can't dip the clutch progressively and feed the power to the wheels in and out in the same way I can with a real clutch. But most important of all is the fact that gears keep missing when they shouldn't, we should not be ending up in N... It's just the most frustrating and unrealistic solution to a clutch + gearbox of any of the sims.
Assetto Corsa does it properly, it simulates grinding gears but like the real world I never miss/grind a gear in Assetto Corsa.
The issue though is the clutch, in GT5 it had no slip at all from a standstill.. GT6 has actually addressed that and you can pull away like a real car with the clutch, but the slip once you're going is not there, I can't dip the clutch progressively and feed the power to the wheels in and out in the same way I can with a real clutch. But most important of all is the fact that gears keep missing when they shouldn't, we should not be ending up in N... It's just the most frustrating and unrealistic solution to a clutch + gearbox of any of the sims.
Assetto Corsa does it properly, it simulates grinding gears but like the real world I never miss/grind a gear in Assetto Corsa.
- 8,723
If you play with the H-pattern, you're going to be slower. Ironically, the sequential shifts are now lightning fast (as well as 100% reliable), so there's no real disadvantage any more compared with the H-pattern / clutch setup (except maybe 2nd gear still). So it's even more sensible to make the checks optional.
My advice is to slow down, practice the timing (it'll feel different than it does in a car, don't know why, but it does for me) and you'll be fine. You'll just be a lot slower than you could be.
For me, the "involvement" of the H-pattern more than offsets that, and I would say the same for turning ABS off, too. But that's just the way I choose to play.
@MX5Racer69 Sort of, I'm saying they should make the game constantly attempt to select the gear your hardware is currently sat in. That is how iRacing and LFS handle it (SimBin games don't seem to care about the clutch axis in respect of gear changes, so they don't count!). Add to that a complete removal of the throttle axis check - currently less than about 20% throttle application is required for a gear to "stick".
Then, if you do mis-time (according only to the clutch axis, not the throttle as well, which can be tricky if you're still accidentally trailing a smidgen over 20% when you pass the shifter through the gates and contact the microswitch of doom), all you need to do is dip the clutch, and you're on your way again.
This is realistic (in terms of time lost) since you won't have taken your hand off the shifter in real life, because you'd have felt it didn't go where it was needed.
It's also far less frustrating because the failure point can only be between the switches in the shifter and your clutch foot, not three or four things in combination, plus an arbitrary requirement to first deselect, then reselect your desired gear, all whilst adhering to "the rules", just to get going again.
@Bigbazz I expect the dip during rolling issue you describe is more to do with not being able to feel the g-force, so your left leg is effectively blind. It's also what makes pulling off on the clutch in any game so damned difficult, in my opinion.
- 331
- Addison, TX
- MX5_Racer_69
@Griffith500, you clearly understand how this works better than I do. So I'll take your word on it. But I agree, just make it work. I'm hoping that it doesn't take a lot of work to fix. So even a simple solution that prevents the shift to neutral problem is ok by me.
JogoAsobi
Premium
- 2,578
I have a T500RS and use it with a TH8RS shifter in GT6.
I used the same setup in GT5 as well, not perfect, but very doable.
This is what I did to make the hardware work better than out-of-the box:
1) I used Thrustmaster's TH8RS calibration utility to shorten the neutral zones for the shifting gates.
(You will need to download the software from Thrustmaster and install it on a supported version of Windows-the settings will carry over for PS3 use).
2) I got a custom knob by to lower the shifter knob height on the too-tall TH8RS shaft.
(Another way to do this is to buy a custom shaft by BasherBoards.com and use an off-the-shelf knob of your preference-they are made by GTP member mrbasher on request.)
3) I had a short shift plate made by a fellow GTP member.
You can find more info about alternate shift plates on the GTP TH8RS thread.
GTP member itrdc makes short shift plates too.
(Be advised that not all after-market TH8RS shift plates have shorter gate lengths like itrdc's do.)
4) I installed the Big Brake Pedal by GTP member OwensRacing to facilitate heel-toe.
I used the same setup in GT5 as well, not perfect, but very doable.
This is what I did to make the hardware work better than out-of-the box:
1) I used Thrustmaster's TH8RS calibration utility to shorten the neutral zones for the shifting gates.
(You will need to download the software from Thrustmaster and install it on a supported version of Windows-the settings will carry over for PS3 use).
2) I got a custom knob by to lower the shifter knob height on the too-tall TH8RS shaft.
(Another way to do this is to buy a custom shaft by BasherBoards.com and use an off-the-shelf knob of your preference-they are made by GTP member mrbasher on request.)
3) I had a short shift plate made by a fellow GTP member.
You can find more info about alternate shift plates on the GTP TH8RS thread.
GTP member itrdc makes short shift plates too.
(Be advised that not all after-market TH8RS shift plates have shorter gate lengths like itrdc's do.)
4) I installed the Big Brake Pedal by GTP member OwensRacing to facilitate heel-toe.
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- 481
- Germany
- GTP_Mahnegold
I can't comment on GT6 (yet) but I used GT5 a lot with clutch. Actually I drove every car - which uses a clutch in real life - that way in GT5 as well. My setup was T500RS/TH8RS & G27. Yes, sometimes there have been misshifts. But in all honesty most of the time it was my own fault. By "fault" I mean stuff like shifting to fast or releasing the cluth to early - things which can happen if you are in a rush.
I am not saying that the clutch model of GT5 is without flaws or that there are no better ones. But for me it was - at least - doable all the time. As I said, I played most of the GT5 content with a clutch. Sure, when a misshift happens it can be really frustrating.
I am not saying that the clutch model of GT5 is without flaws or that there are no better ones. But for me it was - at least - doable all the time. As I said, I played most of the GT5 content with a clutch. Sure, when a misshift happens it can be really frustrating.
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- 1,358
- Redmond, WA
- mrbasherman
I can't speak to GT6 YET (come on Thursday!)
However, once I went to the T500RS with TH8RS on GT5 most of my troubles disappeared. I attributed this mostly to not having to baby a Fanatec Porsche shifter for fear of breaking it.
I heal-toe as well, it's just second nature and it's fun.
This said, I have one persisting issue and I believe this might be what others experience without realizing it. In older cars that have not been upgraded, especially the transmission, my 1st/2nd upshift is missed unless I am careful with it. This is one of the few times I will miss a shift. I never have gotten around to fiddling with the car build on one of these old cars, but it's almost without fail. On the other hand, something like a Lotus Elise or other modern car, I rarely have any issues.
I think, and again, I haven't TESTED IT... I think this shifting issue has to do with the engine rpm needing to match the transmission rpm. It is NOT simply letting off the gas all the way before pressing clutch fully and shifting. I have tried that and it's not necessarily 100%. That is why I believe this is possibly something they were trying that ended up a little too "real." It's the only thing I can come up with given the scenario in which it happens. It may be that simply putting a race flywheel on a car, allowing the engine to "slow down quicker" will help. Something to try at least. :/
However, once I went to the T500RS with TH8RS on GT5 most of my troubles disappeared. I attributed this mostly to not having to baby a Fanatec Porsche shifter for fear of breaking it.
I heal-toe as well, it's just second nature and it's fun.
This said, I have one persisting issue and I believe this might be what others experience without realizing it. In older cars that have not been upgraded, especially the transmission, my 1st/2nd upshift is missed unless I am careful with it. This is one of the few times I will miss a shift. I never have gotten around to fiddling with the car build on one of these old cars, but it's almost without fail. On the other hand, something like a Lotus Elise or other modern car, I rarely have any issues.
I think, and again, I haven't TESTED IT... I think this shifting issue has to do with the engine rpm needing to match the transmission rpm. It is NOT simply letting off the gas all the way before pressing clutch fully and shifting. I have tried that and it's not necessarily 100%. That is why I believe this is possibly something they were trying that ended up a little too "real." It's the only thing I can come up with given the scenario in which it happens. It may be that simply putting a race flywheel on a car, allowing the engine to "slow down quicker" will help. Something to try at least. :/
- 6,598
- United Kingdom
- MSTER232
- PS3 =/= Xbox 360
But how ironic it is that sequential shifts are quicker with each gear? In fact the only "slow" shifts with sequential is 1st to 2nd and that's if you shift while the tyres are spinning and the engine has to catch up with transmission rpm.
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