FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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t.o.
One reason why the "hardcore sims" don't sell well on consoles is because there's almost no advertising for them. I didn't even know this GTR existed on the console till recently and I heard of Race Pro before but I thought it was just going to be another Test Drive or PGR or something. It wasn't till sorta recently I discovered what it truly was. Meanwhile everybody and their mother heard of Forza , GT , PGR and the like.
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This is more what I have been thinking. If those games had more and better advertisement and maybe more cars then I think they would do really well.
 
t.o.
One reason why the "hardcore sims" don't sell well on consoles is because there's almost no advertising for them. I didn't even know this GTR existed on the console till recently and I heard of Race Pro before but I thought it was just going to be another Test Drive or PGR or something. It wasn't till sorta recently I discovered what it truly was. Meanwhile everybody and their mother heard of Forza , GT , PGR and the like.
Click to expand...

Doesn't look like GTR ever made it to the 360:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/163323/news/thq-parts-ways-with-gtr-on-xbox-360/
 
Can someone please explain how GT5 has 'soul?' I'm struggling with this.

I can only think of two things:

1. All the laborious menus, long load times and missing/half-finished/stuffed features create that ugly little deformed rabbit that you just can't help but love.

or

2. Playing GT5 evokes memories of all the times you found yourself smiling in previous GT games and it's the great moments of those games you are thinking of when playing GT5.

Unfortunately for me, that's a problem with GT5: sure all that old stuff (soul?) is there again, but it's so similar to the past and such a little push forward that it's not giving me those smiles and 'wow' moments any more. I feel GT5's soul has grown old and there's no sign of the next generation...

Forza's 'soul' still seems like a young adult getting to grips with itself, but the future looks good and Forza 4 looks fresh.

I've never been intentionally biased to either game, but that's just the way I see them now.
 
Well, I am impressed by FM4.
I dont own both consoles, I'm waiting for that game that will warrant buying a 360, and FM4 looks very promising. Then again, I said the same thing about FM3 two years ago...

They both have many great points and many flaws. I just have preffered the GT way of doing things...well, honestly it is the lack of logitech wheel support for 360. But with consoles getting much cheaper, and looking into upgrading to a Fanatec GT2 wheel, I may be getting a 360 and FM4 this October.

I don't know why we have to have fanboyism. It is an ugly disease. I can appreciate what both games bring to the table. I think it stems from console fanboyism. (PS3 vs. XBOX rather than a GT vs. FM) I could be wrong though...

The biggest thing I am impressed with so far in FM4 is the graphical upgrade. The cars no longer are 'plastic-y' looking. In my honest opinion, GT does not have the upper hand anymore in this department. Now if T10 could nail down the physics and add Rally (Sorry, I am a rally nut.) they would be the clear winner in my mind...
 
GumShoe
Can someone please explain how GT5 has 'soul?' I'm struggling with this.

I can only think of two things:

1. All the laborious menus, long load times and missing/half-finished/stuffed features create that ugly little deformed rabbit that you just can't help but love.

or

2. Playing GT5 evokes memories of all the times you found yourself smiling in previous GT games and it's the great moments of those games you are thinking of when playing GT5.

Unfortunately for me, that's a problem with GT5: sure all that old stuff (soul?) is there again, but it's so similar to the past and such a little push forward that it's not giving me those smiles and 'wow' moments any more. I feel GT5's soul has grown old and there's no sign of the next generation...

Forza's 'soul' still seems like a young adult getting to grips with itself, but the future looks good and Forza 4 looks fresh.

I've never been intentionally biased to either game, but that's just the way I see them now.
Click to expand...

The term "SOUL" is one of those overused meaningless terms that i absolutely hate. Nothing has "soul", our individual reception of a product is what gives it soul. In other word's soul is simply preference, Someone argued that the car "Nissan GTR" had no soul simply because it wasn't as fun as driving a Porsche 911. The goal of the car was not to be as adrenaline inducing as a Porsche, rather it was made to be fast and controllable at the same time. To that end the car has a soul because it caters to people who enjoyed those types of cars. Same with GT and Forza, both games have soul they simply cater to different audiences and if all you do is find faults with one game or the other then the game is not for you.



(btw were are the screenshot comparisons? i thought a floodgate would have been opened by now)
DAVE
 
For GT's sake I hope PD suffer heavy losses in profits for the next game, unfortunately by then it will be too late.

And the graphical jump from FM3 to FM4 is amazing, I can't really say it's on par with GT5, yet, but knowing it won't attempt to be a jack-of-all-trades, at least it will be more consistent.

Also, I love how when GT5 was released all the Forza fanboys said that FM3's and GT5's graphics are equal - now FM4 comes around and really shows what it means to be equal.
 
I prefer GT5 over FM for many simple reasons:

* GT5 has a "Soul" due to their awesome support (PD / Sony) for multiple racing wheels. I was hoping FM4 would branch out more than just Fanatec and Mad Catz but once again they have failed to attract more quality wheels. Instead, they choose to water down the series with Kinect and that crazy looking speed wheel :crazy:

So too me, I feel like PD / Kaz value racing wheels and giving us the best experience. A nice DFGT wheel can be had for much less than those new FFB wheels coming out for FM4. 👍

Granted, FM3 gets props. Any kind of car I could want I can drive with a cockpit. 👍

I just dont like how Turn 10 is going after the lowest common dominator. But hey- I already have a Kinect for the family. So what the heck, we will probably like it. I might still order a Fanatec later.

* So the main reason is my T500rs doesnt work on xbox 360. Dont really want to unload all that money on a Fanatec. So i might wait to get FM4 used like I have always done for Forza series. Nothing personal Turn 10. Great games. But yeah, the racing wheel options are still really lackluster unless Fanatec can step up their game and actually keep wheels in stock for people. I still might get FM4 new though if they release more info and trailers that have real substance (want to see car list, how does it look in full 1080p cause FM3 looked bad on my 55 inch plasma all jaggied and stuff )

* I also feel that FM4, since its coming out later than GT5, should be able to step it up to at least 24 players online racing. Just coming out with 16 players is sort of just trying to "keep up" with GT5. 16 players still falls wonderfully short of PC sims.... Really, do most real life races only have 16 cars???? The races I watch seem to have much more along with pits, tire wear, etc. Let's step this up. In iRacing we have much more than that for example along with rFactor. No one is stepping it up here.

* No mention of detailed pits at least on GT5's level. I am really, really addicted to pits (I've been playing lots of PC sims lately). If they once again lack pits then I will consider GT5 more realistic in this aspect

* So for me, GT5 has a "Soul" due to at least trying to be realistic (pits+) while I think Forza is evolving in a different direction. It has a 'soul' of its own but it's one that caters to the masses. Controllers will work super awesome out of the box. They play with gamepads in their demoes. They talk about focusing on "cars" and not so much on racing. Kaz injects a Soul into gt5 series with his passion for racing (like real life racing, etc) while dan (from Turn 10) feels like a Marketing exec too me. But you dedicated forza fans would know more about Dan so I would defer to other posters on that

* Lack of 3D. I am looking forward to going totally 3D racing in the near future. GT5 supports 3D


[edit, added more points]
 
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I have read that 3D cuts the framerate down to 30FPS and isn't all it's cracked up to be.

There's a Driving in 3D thread around the wheels section for more info.
 
t.o.
One reason why the "hardcore sims" don't sell well on consoles is because there's almost no advertising for them. I didn't even know this GTR existed on the console till recently and I heard of Race Pro before but I thought it was just going to be another Test Drive or PGR or something. It wasn't till sorta recently I discovered what it truly was. Meanwhile everybody and their mother heard of Forza , GT , PGR and the like.
Click to expand...

That is a factor along with the most popular PC sims- iRacing & rFactor just wouldn't be the same. rFactor can't have the incredible community mods on a console. That's not the rFactor I love right there 👎

That leaves iRacing. I don't see the iRacing running at a nice FPS on a console with a full grid. These console racers are topping out at a mere 16 (mentioned in my post above). iRacing wants to push to more realistic grids

Let's not even mention iRacing fans enjoy using the very best equipment like ECCI, CST, FREX, etc. These words are practically unheard of here on this site. Not to mention you can play in 3d, triple screen, etc much cheaper than on a console (buy 3 copies and have 3 consoles, 👎) vs just 1 PC with 1 to 2 video cards
 
sandboxgod
* I also feel that FM4, since its coming out later than GT5, should be able to step it up to at least 24 players online racing. Just coming out with 16 players is sort of just trying to "keep up" with GT5. 16 players still falls wonderfully short of PC sims.... Really, do most real life races only have 16 cars???? The races I watch seem to have much more along with pits, tire wear, etc. Let's step this up. In iRacing we have much more than that for example along with rFactor. No one is stepping it up here.

[edit, added more points]
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Ever hear of netcode?
No dedicated server = terrible lag on console online races with more people.

I would love to see DS racing on console, but it's not going to happen.
 
^^ Oh yeah I know all about netcode & dedicated servers. I'm sure most posters do 👍

I've run quite a bit myself for various games

They can still top 16 players. I believe the restraint is the graphics, not the network bandwidth, etc. They are worried console gamer will fall apart to pieces when FPS goes below 30 FPS is my guess :crazy:

Maybe if these cars had a little less polygons.... But alas, they cant do that right? Then all these trailers and promos wouldn't look as good....
 
Also yes. Graphics become an issue with that many models at those rez levels.
But god forbid that we sacrifice visuals for gameplay...

And I still think it becomes a network issue too, I've played non-DS console shooters with >16 players, and it's awful, so... Even Halo:Reach is only 8v8, and that has some of the most awesomely smooth netcode I've ever seen off a dedicated server.
 
sandboxgod
That is a factor along with the most popular PC sims- iRacing & rFactor just wouldn't be the same. rFactor can't have the incredible community mods on a console. That's not the rFactor I love right there 👎

That leaves iRacing. I don't see the iRacing running at a nice FPS on a console with a full grid. These console racers are topping out at a mere 16 (mentioned in my post above). iRacing wants to push to more realistic grids

Let's not even mention iRacing fans enjoy using the very best equipment like ECCI, CST, FREX, etc. These words are practically unheard of here on this site. Not to mention you can play in 3d, triple screen, etc much cheaper than on a console (buy 3 copies and have 3 consoles, 👎) vs just 1 PC with 1 to 2 video cards
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The highlighted part makes sense in the argument. Good points. Everything else though kinda falls short in my opinion. Everything else you're talking about is a small part of even the hardcore segment. I don't think FREX wheels are flying out the shop every minute on the minute.
 
akiraacecombat
In the same moment people started to assume that they can have eyes that work more than 30 fps,other than that,whining perhaps.
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It's not hard to notice the difference between 30 and 60fps videos.

Claiming otherwise is just stupid.

p.s The human eye needs 25fps or higher just to perceive a generally smooth video experience, nothing stopping us getting a smoother experience at a higher fps rate.
 
FyreandIce
It's not hard to notice the difference between 30 and 60fps videos.

Claiming otherwise is just stupid.

p.s The human eye needs 25fps or higher just to perceive a generally smooth video experience, nothing stopping us getting a smoother experience at a higher fps rate.
Click to expand...

Agree with this and another point to note is that even slight 'slowdown' at 30fps would be noticeable whereas at 60fps you really wouldn't notice any slowdown at all.
 
akiraacecombat
In the same moment people started to assume that they can have eyes that work more than 30 fps,other than that,whining perhaps.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait...are you suggesting the human eye can't perceive the differences between 30 and 60 fps?

PzR Slim
Agree with this and another point to note is that even slight 'slowdown' at 30fps would be noticeable whereas at 60fps you really wouldn't notice any slowdown at all.
Click to expand...

If it's anything from 59 down to say, 54, maybe. Jogging from 60 to 50 you'd notice the difference.
 
I thing that I miss both in gt5 and f3/f4 compared to rfactor is seat adjustment, and rear/side mirrors adjustment. In rfactor when you change your seating position you can adjust mirrors to your likings. This would be great feature in console race sims
 
dzidza
I thing that I miss both in gt5 and f3/f4 compared to rfactor is seat adjustment, and rear/side mirrors adjustment. In rfactor when you change your seating position you can adjust mirrors to your likings. This would be great feature in console race sims
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I agree. Subtle and nice feature that can just add a little more to the details. May not really be that important though, especially in racing but it would be nice.
 
Pierced Lead
And the graphical jump from FM3 to FM4 is amazing, I can't really say it's on par with GT5, yet, but knowing it won't attempt to be a jack-of-all-trades, at least it will be more consistent.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. If FM4 at release still trails GT5's premium cars graphically, but the game excels everywhere else, I am happy.
 
t.o.
The highlighted part makes sense in the argument. Good points. Everything else though kinda falls short in my opinion. Everything else you're talking about is a small part of even the hardcore segment. I don't think FREX wheels are flying out the shop every minute on the minute.
Click to expand...

I'm confused, what is the "hardcore segment"? I don't want to be labeled as hardcore all because I primarily play on PC sims (there's nothing hardcore by the way I play beyond not having access to driving aids, ingame maps, and access to advanced telemetry, etc). And I wasn't making an argument, etc. iRacing had the chance to move to console I've read and they've turned it down for various reasons. I don't blame them. The way iRacing is setup in it's current form, wheels are pretty much a requirement. Pretty much ziltch plays with a gamepad. This is death on a console along with lack of driving aids. I think they are finally adding that in iRacing 2.0 this August.

And yeah there's lots of other subtle factors. iRacing takes full advantage of wheel & brakes. And yeah, a great many iRacing users use CST pedals, etc.

There's just so many reasons why the PC sims wouldn't work on console.

Thats the wonderful thing bout PC though. you're not pigeon holed into Fanatec / Mad Catz

[edit] Above I actually misunderstood an article about iRacing. They never disclosed if they planned to move to console. They only commented they were not considering it at this time when asked on the forums.
 
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HighSeasHoMastr
Also yes. Graphics become an issue with that many models at those rez levels.
But god forbid that we sacrifice visuals for gameplay...

And I still think it becomes a network issue too, I've played non-DS console shooters with >16 players, and it's awful, so... Even Halo:Reach is only 8v8, and that has some of the most awesomely smooth netcode I've ever seen off a dedicated server.
Click to expand...

I play halo reach (or well used to) all the time. Killzone 3 is much smoother and it has dedicated servers from what I've read. for instance, there is no "host" like in Halo Reach so when people leave mid game you don't get left hanging. 👍 That's the problem with peer-to-peer, when host leaves you have interrupted playtime as the server switches to next host

so I firmly believe racing titles on consoles can have a Dedicated server there is nothing stopping them
 
sandboxgod
I'm confused, what is the "hardcore segment"? I don't want to be labeled as hardcore all because I primarily play on PC sims (there's nothing hardcore by the way I play beyond not having access to driving aids, ingame maps, and access to advanced telemetry, etc). And I wasn't making an argument, etc. iRacing had the chance to move to console I've read and they've turned it down for various reasons. I don't blame them. The way iRacing is setup in it's current form, wheels are pretty much a requirement. Pretty much ziltch plays with a gamepad. This is death on a console along with lack of driving aids. I think they are finally adding that in iRacing 2.0 this August.

And yeah there's lots of other subtle factors. iRacing takes full advantage of wheel & brakes. And yeah, a great many iRacing users use CST pedals, etc.

There's just so many reasons why the PC sims wouldn't work on console.

Thats the wonderful thing bout PC though. you're not pigeon holed into Fanatec / Mad Catz
Click to expand...

Good arguments (ps the word "argument" doesn't necessarily mean two or more people shouting at the top of their lungs throwing things at each other lol) but I still say they could have sold more on consoles if they would just advertise. If Race Pro did more than just tap people on the shoulder in a dark alley and say "Pssst, I'm selling a racing game" they would have made some more sales. As far as the other games they could have adapted their games for the console market. If SIMBIN could do it no reason they couldn't either.

The one really solid valid point you do have is the community-based content imo. I don't think you'd move any PC users to the consoles solely on that reason alone but it wouldn't have stopped any console based users who probably don't know about the community-based content to begin with. They could at least made it a money-making gateway to their PC world.
 
Okay BFBC2 is running on dedicated servers for sure. No way every shooter is p2p. So article I found using google on BFBC2. Thought I'd check on BF series:

Dedicated servers

EA's long-running arrangement with Microsoft means that Bad Company 2 (like all EA-published games) can use dedicated servers. This removes the "host advantage" problem found in every non-EA shooter to date and offers a far more level playing field. Having said that, I have experienced intermittent latency/lag issues - just not in nearly every single game, like the competition. This makes me think that there may be a limited number of servers in countries outside the US, and once they're full, you'll end up on a server in another country with less-than-ideal latency. I contacted both EA and DICE to ask where their servers are, but had not heard back at the time of publication.


So on topic, I don't see why a racing game can't be dedicated? Unless you guys are telling every single console game out there is peer-to-peer?
 
All EA games are dedicated servers. Sucks because they keep terminating servers on games that are 3 years old or older. EA sucks!
 

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