FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[PzR Slim]

Also many people think that by playing both games that how somehow invalidates their bias. Yes it gives you a more informed opinion but at the end of the day it is still an opinion that is affected by bias.

I categorically disagree with that. I'm no sheep that follows one franchise. I want the best racing experience I can get no matter where I get it PS3, Xbox, PC, even Wii. I give every racing game I play a fair crack of the whip. I fully expected GT5 to wipe the floor with FM, not because of some brand loyalty but because I remember playing past GT's for hours on end throughout my gaming life and having the best time. But that didn't happen FM gave me more of what I wanted from my racing games in this day and age. That has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with which I think is the better game.

 

[dylansan]

I categorically disagree with that. I'm no sheep that follows one franchise. I want the best racing experience I can get no matter where I get it PS3, Xbox, PC, even Wii. I give every racing game I play a fair crack of the whip. I fully expected GT5 to wipe the floor with FM, not because of some brand loyalty but because I remember playing past GT's for hours on end throughout my gaming life and having the best time. But that didn't happen FM gave me more of what I wanted from my racing games in this day and age. That has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with which I think is the better game.

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit: That's more directed to vaxxtx.

 

[PzR Slim]

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit:Sorry that's more directed to vaxxtx.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Brend]

What on earth are you talking about?

He incorrectly quoted.

 

[PzR Slim]

He incorrectly quoted.

Then he should have changed the quote as well. And he did say 'more directed' inferring it was still directed at me.

 

[GT6mebe]

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit: That's more directed to vaxxtx.

I think he is basing his entire view on the few people that are active in Forzaplanet. Very accurate and valid comparison you see /s

 

[Terronium-12]

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit: That's more directed to vaxxtx.

I play and own both, and tend to prefer Forza 4 as it's more well-rounded.

 

[Daverytimes]

I will honestly say the worse part of GTPlanet is the GT hardcore that bash Forza and dont own it, but play it at a "friends house" or "I have seen videos of it". They are the worse and a poor representation and hopefully the minority of this website.

You don't come into a website dedicated to one game and expect non-bias, i bet most of them that say they play it at a friends house have never even seen the game. Fact is when you come into a website like this (and Forzaplanet.net or forzamotorsport.net) don't expect people not to be biased, last i checked the Forzaplanets version of "GT5 vs Forza 4" is brimming with bias.

 

[cuco33]

I play and own both, and tend to prefer Forza 4 as it's more well-rounded.

Add me to this list.

Also note, almost daily I power on both my X360 and PS3 with FM4/GT5 in their respective drives. Almost daily. If I'm not actually racing, I'm practicing with a car, tuning it, building a new car, etc.

You don't come into a website dedicated to one game and expect non-bias, i bet most of them that say they play it at a friends house have never even seen the game. Fact is when you come into a website like this (and Forzaplanet.net or forzamotorsport.net) don't expect people not to be biased, last i checked the Forzaplanets version of "GT5 vs Forza 4" is brimming with bias.

Forzaplanet is not as biased as this site, not by any means. Mind you it was started with intent folks can go over there from here! Over there the vs thread you mentioned has folks who have played both games quite a bit, some still do (like myself) and we still see the same type of GT fans who have only 'played it at a friend's house' or basing their posts on youtube videos when chiming in with their 'facts', in lines with here.. No reason to cry foul. I think everyone expects bias to some degree but no one should have to deal with 'experts' of a game who have never really played said game

 

[Terronium-12]

You don't come into a website dedicated to one game and expect non-bias, i bet most of them that say they play it at a friends house have never even seen the game. Fact is when you come into a website like this (and Forzaplanet.net or forzamotorsport.net) don't expect people not to be biased, last i checked the Forzaplanets version of "GT5 vs Forza 4" is brimming with bias.

It's also brimming with individuals there for no other reason than to stir the cauldron.

 

[PzR Slim]

Add me to this list.

Also note, almost daily I power on both my X360 and PS3 with FM4/GT5. Almost daily. If I'm not actually racing, I'm practicing with a car, tuning it, building a new car, etc.

And me. I've a probably done more competitive racing in GT5 in the past six months than in FM because the guys I run comps with in FM have been quiet recently. But in need my competitive racing fix so I'm getting it from GT5. It's a great game just not as good as FM4 IMO. You see that's another thing a lot of people don't seem to understand. That you can have a preference for one game but still really enjoy the other. To me it seems as though some people haven't even let the thought of that possibility enter their head.

It's also brimming with individuals there for no other reason than to stir the cauldron.

Certainly a few people with zero interest in FM.

 

[Patrick]

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit: That's more directed to vaxxtx.

Add me to the list. I prefer Forza.

 

[Finduszip]

Add me to the list. I prefer Forza.

Then why are you here?

 

[Terronium-12]

And me. I've a probably done more competitive racing in GT5 in the past six months than in FM because the guys I run comps with in FM have been quiet recently. But in need my competitive racing fix so I'm getting it from GT5. It's a great game just not as good as FM4 IMO. You see that's another thing a lot of people don't seem to understand. That you can have a preference for one game but still really enjoy the other. To me it seems as though some people haven't even let the thought of that possibility enter their head.




Certainly a few people with zero interest in FM.

Pz, don't you know?

 

[Tornado]

Then why are you here?

Love to know what the implication here is.

 

[prymet1me]

You don't come into a website dedicated to one game and expect non-bias, i bet most of them that say they play it at a friends house have never even seen the game. Fact is when you come into a website like this (and Forzaplanet.net or forzamotorsport.net) don't expect people not to be biased, last i checked the Forzaplanets version of "GT5 vs Forza 4" is brimming with bias.

I registered here for info and tips for GT5 after lurking here before and during the launch of GT5. I didnt come here expecting a NON bias but I never expected some of the members here to be so closed minded and at times ridiculous. I am sorry man but the amount of GT hardcore here that play FM at a "friends" house and have the nerve to post their "opinion" in such strong standing is ridiculous also I will not even get started ranting about the ones that judge it from youtube videos. Then you have the ones that rant about the great Kaz and the "passion" and "soul" in GT5..get real.

When I played the first GT game it was new to have so many cars from all over the world in a racing game then I moved on the GT2 and then GT3 A spec, hell man I bought the ps2 GT3 race bundle from Wal Mart that came in the red box! I ended up getting an xbox cause I am a gamer I have no allegiance, then I hear microsoft was coming out with a similar game to GT and that game had a name I thought was weird, something called Forza. I gave it a try and was VERY pleased, I expected something similar to GT and got some other features that were NOT in GT. Did that make me become some ridiculous fanboy..nope, I tried GT4 but by the time I did I was pass doing license tests to start a race and the game up rezzed didnt look that good on my HD TV. That being said I didnt count it against the game because I told myself I was late to the party with the game because it was a last gen game so I will look forward to GT5.

Then GT5 came along, I heard and read all the hype about the game and some of the anti FM boys bashing the Microsoft game talking like GT would be the second coming. Still playing FM3 at the time I picked up GT5 and was a disappointed by a list of things that have been talked to death. What made me get bored of the game was the last gen ported cars, terrible career mode, seasonals turned into what is just a time trial, lack of tuning options I feel should be in the game and honestly I feel like the game needs come forward into what I think is THIS generation of game design. I like racing more than a set of certain cars on the 'ring, I like my muscle cars to sound like a muscle car, I like dropping a big motor in this D class car to see what kind of madness will ensue, I like thinking I can grab a Hamann design for this M5 because the factory pain just didn't pop enough, I like the idea that if I get careless and slam into this car I will have some damage, I like cockpit view in every car, I like the even list with many different races to stretch the game out, I like not having to be a certain level to do a race and last but not least I like the fact that ever since the first FM on the OG xbox I have played it until the Next game came out.

We all have bias but to read this thread and some other threads on this website I feel like some GTP users are simply mad. For sakes, I remember when GT5 came out and you would voice a disappointment some users went flame mode on you. Some of the community here makes me not want to visit here often. The most open minded person I see posting here is Scaff he plays BOTH games and has (in my mind) pretty good points when he posts, but most times get a reply (if any) that is not actually addressing or answering what he posts.

If I am FM biased that is fine, I will accept that and I will stand by my opinion that some GTP users are very closed minded.


That is the longest post I have ever written on probably any website.

 

[PzR Slim]

Then why are you here?

Ah, you must be one of the ones I was talking about. Those that it hasn't even entered their blinkered minds that you can prefer one game but still like another. We don't all have to give our soul to one game and promise not to covert another

 

[SlipZtrEm]

What it can hit....CAN. On average it is a solid 60fps and 45-50 fps when night or rainy. Also glad you mention 3D which hugely taxes the graphics engine.

On average it's 60fps if you're only ever hotlapping, yes. Introduce other cars, especially Premiums, and the rate dips.

3D does take a toll, yes, when it's on.

Guess I did not word it properly. I mean it should offer different interior colours that most sport cars have. Gt5 does this partially with PREMIUM cars.
Also the cockpits are still textured really badly.

You're right - FM4 doesn't model different interior colours. It does however have interiors for every single car. Which is more important?

Define "really badly", by the way. Don't let your obvious bias speak for you; GT5's best interiors do edge out FM4's, I'll admit that, but its really very close.

Also many people think that by playing both games that how somehow invalidates their bias. Yes it gives you a more informed opinion but at the end of the day it is still an opinion that is affected by bias.

Its strange that the "oh it's just bias talking" excuse is only ever leveled at people who prefer FM4. I know I'd much rather hear the opinion of someone who actually knows what they're talking about over someone who has only played one of either of the games.

I've played the GT series since '98. other than a few small sessions with it intermittently, I didn't play Forza much until getting FM3 two weeks before 4's release. If I have any bias, it'd be for the game which first got me interested in not only sim racing, but automotive culture in general. I want GT to succeed for that very reason, but I have no qualms admitting that as a game, As a source of entertainment, Forza 4 has it beat. But as I've said many times before, and has been echoed only a few posts above; competition breeds excellence, and having two great racing franchises means only good things for us, the players.

 

[Scaff]

Then why are you here?

I've been a member here for near a decade, have over 10,000 post, have written GT tuning guides that run to over 100 pages, have bought ever GT title on the day it came out and I prefer FM4 over GT5.

Want to ask me why I'm here?

The site welcomes everyone who is willing to follow the AUP, and I will be quite clear about this, you don't to tell people if they should or shouldn't be here.


Scaff

 

[ralph89]

You know you are the worst kind of internet warrior, the ones that have absolutely nothing to say but say it anyway.

I just said what a lot of people is agreeing in the past couple of pages of this thread, based on people who posted it, anything wrong with that?

I said internet warrior as a joke, you seem to get the meaning of "internet warrior" mixed up..

Internet Warrior:
Sticking to one thread just to defend something repeatedly.
Telling people they're dumb and acting tough over the internet.

But I won't even bother pointing out who's doing the internet warrior mentality in here.

Now let's move on.

 

[Patrick]

Then why are you here?

Just replying to Dylan's post.

 

[PzR Slim]

I just said what a lot of people is agreeing in the past couple of pages of this thread, based on people who posted it, anything wrong with that?

I said internet warrior as a joke, you seem to get the meaning of "internet warrior" mixed up..

Internet Warrior:
Sticking to one thread just to defend something repeatedly.
Telling people they're dumb and acting tough over the internet.

But I won't even bother pointing out who's doing the internet warrior mentality in here.

Now let's move on.

And yet again you fail to add anything meaningful to the discussion.

 

[Scaff]

What it can hit....CAN. On average it is a solid 60fps and 45-50 fps when night or rainy. Also glad you mention 3D which hugely taxes the graphics engine.

When digital foundry tested this the found that GT5 can hit mid 45-50 fps with no rain and in the day.


Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/forza-4-vs-gran-turismo-5

I've seen footage of GT5 hitting sub-30 fps at night with rain, and 3D drops that more.

Source - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=3

I really don't see how that is an acceptable hit for anyone who wants anything close to a sim.

Guess I did not word it properly. I mean it should offer different interior colours that most sport cars have. Gt5 does this partially with PREMIUM cars.
Also the cockpits are still textured really badly.

No you didn't and to be honest you need to start making sure you say exactly what you mean, as this is starting to become a pattern.

Yes the best GT5 can offer is currently unmatched (and I have never said otherwise, but that best is only 20%.

I know right how could he possibly mix that up.

Given that you will find nothing to even remotely corroberate the claim anywhere on the web, then yes I do have to wonder how such a mistake was made.

Ah thanks for reminding me. I tested it a long while ago like you said, and though I have no proof the car did not spin out like in Forza. However the car is far more twitchy in GT5.

Oh I know the car doesn't behave correctly in GT5, its a hole in the low speed physics that has been around for far too long now.

Now please define twitchy. When, what type of corner, under what conditions.

Or is this another one of your throwaway claims, such as all FM4 sports cars having the. COG set too high and RUFs with wheels at 90 degrees when they clearly don't

Also I want to ask you something. If the cause is due to the different and sometimes random loss of grip in the rear tyres than can you justify to me that the cobra in FM4 can spin the other way. Please show cockpit view also. Thanks in advance just curious.

At what point did I say random?

I didn't, I said....

So why does this happen, well in the real world its a combination of factors, the main one being load, with a few rare exceptions cars are are not of equal lateral weight when static, throw in a driver and they certainly aren't. You also have issues with sidewall deformation (which with unequal load will not be the same) not being equal which changes the contact patch shape and size. Oh and you can potentially look at unequal diff and driveshaft torque distribution.

...and I would suggest you don't misquote me again.

It not random and its repeatable, which is close to how it is in the real world.

Now while I am happy to post up the cockpit view, I am going to ask why.

Wow. I think that has pretty much summed your biased tendencies towards Forza. Seen it in Gt forums too.

No side is exactly innocent in this regard including yourself, or even me.

Any claim of no bias is nonsense, as humans we are pretty much incapable of discussing any topic without bias.

Also many people think that by playing both games that how somehow invalidates their bias. Yes it gives you a more informed opinion but at the end of the day it is still an opinion that is affected by bias.

You know what Slip said about bias and GT history, you can apply that to me.

Go back and review my posting history and tell me that I don't historically have a massive GT bias (download my GT tuning guides and when you have read them consider how long it took to test all of that and write it - that's a fraction of my time with GT4, let alone the full series), when you have done so ask why I now have a FM4 bias (and note the 4 its important).

Could it possible be that after hundreds of hours invested in the GT series over more than a decade I simply decided on a whim to say 'screw it I'll just like Forza for a laugh", or possible that I found in FM4 what the GT series is now missing?

I can even tell you what the final straw was in it for me (and its not the tyre model - which as someone who has spent many, many hours working with real world tyre data is strange), its the tuning. I love vehicle dynamics with a passion, every single part of it from the basics to the physics behind it, I loved teaching it, I still keep up to date with SAE and Racecar Engineering publications. I loved that while not perfect I could, in GT1 to 4 apply the basic fundamentals of tuning to cars and they would act roughly as they should do. Along came GT5 and the first thing I find is that for months I can't change gear ratios, only the final drive!!! Then I start tuning cars and all of a sudden real world theory isn't working as it should, and not by a small way, ride height does things it shouldn't, spring and damper rates have gone mad. Don't believe me, take a look at the tuning sub-forums here and see the volume of posts on it. Even more strange are the number of people who are happy to accept it.

I prefer FM4 to GT5 simply because in the areas that matter to me its a better sim, to be blunt the standards vs Premiums has never bothered me, the crappy menus are just a part of GT for me, the car wash, the oil change. None of these bother me at all. However when the tuning starts to get lost then I start to wonder, and when something else comes along that does allow me to tune (and in a way that reflects the real world), has a pretty good tyre model, with a solid frame rate then its going to appeal.

My choice is an informed one, one based on what appeals to me, so yes a bias exists, but I can explain and track the changes in mine and I think that gives me a degree of informed and balanced credibility. Can you say the same?


Scaff

 

[Scaff]

Double post because my mod hat is on right now.

I just said what a lot of people is agreeing in the past couple of pages of this thread, based on people who posted it, anything wrong with that?

I said internet warrior as a joke, you seem to get the meaning of "internet warrior" mixed up..

Internet Warrior:
Sticking to one thread just to defend something repeatedly.
Telling people they're dumb and acting tough over the internet.

But I won't even bother pointing out who's doing the internet warrior mentality in here.

Now let's move on.

And what have you added to the discussion aside from attempting to provoke a reaction from other members?

Very little, and if you continue in this manner you will find a formal warning in your PM in-box.

Argue the points in question, do not attack the members making them.


Scaff

 

[ralph89]

And yet again you fail to add anything meaningful to the discussion.

I accept I haven't add one yet, but replying to someone and calls a person "internet warrior" is?

I thought I've seen it all after 7 years of visiting GTplanet.

Double post because my mod hat is on right now.



And what have you added to the discussion aside from attempting to provoke a reaction from other members?

Very little, and if you continue in this manner you will find a formal warning in your PM in-box.

Argue the points in question, do not attack the members making them.


Scaff

Look at my first post, and look at his reply. Just saying.

I never pointed anyone, but I apologize if it's considered an attack.

 

[Scaff]

I accept I haven't add one yet, but replying to someone and calls a person "internet warrior" is?

I thought I've seen it all after 7 years of visiting GTplanet.

Do I have to repeat myself or will the two of you be taking a break from GT Planet for a few days?

Scaff

 

[Vaxxtx]

I think he is basing his entire view on the few people that are active in Forzaplanet. Very accurate and valid comparison you see /s

Nope, I base that off people who have played both games not "at a friends house". Like I said before, motorsports fans, not PD or T10 fans.

Then provide some evidence that people who play both games tend to prefer Forza.

Edit: That's more directed to vaxxtx.

Evidence? What, you want a poll? You want a list of names? How about a PSN id and XBL gamertag?

What I have seen, are people who like racing games in general, and have the means to own more than one console, and own both GT5 and FM4 prefer FM4. They also tend to play other games as well, not just one or the other. I take their opinions over someone who only has one game.

On the other hand, I have seen people that obviously own GT5, only play GT5 (and like to brag about that fact) try to compare it with FM4, without owning it. Sure its an opnion, but an un-informed one. The same type of person also said iRacings laser scanned tracks are not that good compared to GT5.

I play many motorsport games, on consoles and PC. Right now I am loving Race 07....yes even over FM4, its getting more play time, with iRacing second, and FM4 3rd. You see, I can say on console *I* think FM4 is the best right now. When GT6 comes out, I might change my mind. I could care less who makes it, as long as it its good.

 

[dylansan]

Evidence? What, you want a poll? You want a list of names?

What I have seen, are people who like racing games in general, and have the means to own more than one console, and own both GT5 and FM4 prefer FM4. They also tend to play other games as well, not just one or the other. I take their opinions over someone who only has one game.

A poll would be nice, but what I'm really trying to say is that whatever number of people you have questioned on this topic, it is not a large enough sample size to represent the majority opinion. Just because most of the people you've asked have preferred Forza does not mean most people prefer Forza. What you've seen is irrelevant, it is not an argument.

I have the first three Forza games, and each time I've been hyped up by the trailers and such, and disappointed once I got to play it. They're not bad games, but everything I keep hoping gets changed remains the same each time. When I started seeing Forza 4 stuff, I became skeptical. The screenshots looked amazing, way better than I was expecting, but when it finally came out, and I saw videos of in-game racing, I realized the graphics were still just as cartoony and bright as ever.

That is not to say I wasn't disappointed with aspects of GT5 as well, but you can't say I didn't give each game a chance. I was really looking forward to F4, but when I realized it wasn't going to be much different than F3, I decided it wasn't worth it. Maybe I'll get Forza 5, though I really wish the DFGT worked on Xbox so I wouldn't have to get another wheel.

 

[Vaxxtx]

A poll would be nice, but what I'm really trying to say is that whatever number of people you have questioned on this topic, it is not a large enough sample size to represent the majority opinion. Just because most of the people you've asked have preferred Forza does not mean most people prefer Forza. What you've seen is irrelevant, it is not an argument.

I have the first three Forza games, and each time I've been hyped up by the trailers and such, and disappointed once I got to play it. They're not bad games, but everything I keep hoping gets changed remains the same each time. When I started seeing Forza 4 stuff, I became skeptical. The screenshots looked amazing, way better than I was expecting, but when it finally came out, and I saw videos of in-game racing, I realized the graphics were still just as cartoony and bright as ever.

That is not to say I wasn't disappointed with aspects of GT5 as well, but you can't say I didn't give each game a chance. I was really looking forward to F4, but when I realized it wasn't going to be much different than F3, I decided it wasn't worth it. Maybe I'll get Forza 5, though I really wish the DFGT worked on Xbox so I wouldn't have to get another wheel.

Making a poll was a sarcastic statement. No way to prove who owns what to be honest.

But I thank you for proving my point.

Not only do you not own FM4 but have not played it or other Forzas with a wheel. Also saying it wasnt going to be much different than 3 (which if you played you would know it is, especially in physics) shows me your opinion of FM4 is based off what you hear, or interwebz videos.

So I guess if there was a poll, you couldnt even vote huh?

 

[GT6mebe]

Nope, I base that off people who have played both games not "at a friends house". Like I said before, motorsports fans, not PD or T10 fans.



Evidence? What, you want a poll? You want a list of names? How about a PSN id and XBL gamertag?

What I have seen, are people who like racing games in general, and have the means to own more than one console, and own both GT5 and FM4 prefer FM4. They also tend to play other games as well, not just one or the other. I take their opinions over someone who only has one game.

On the other hand, I have seen people that obviously own GT5, only play GT5 (and like to brag about that fact) try to compare it with FM4, without owning it. Sure its an opnion, but an un-informed one. The same type of person also said iRacings laser scanned tracks are not that good compared to GT5.

I play many motorsport games, on consoles and PC. Right now I am loving Race 07....yes even over FM4, its getting more play time, with iRacing second, and FM4 3rd. You see, I can say on console *I* think FM4 is the best right now. When GT6 comes out, I might change my mind. I could care less who makes it, as long as it its good.

I wonder how many of these said motorsports fan actually are there that you know......in comparison to the millions of sim racers. Yup your argument is pretty much invalid.

Not to mention most of these said fans have come to Forzaplanet but you fail to recognise the 2 plus million people at GTplanet who may have played Forza and just discarded it due to GT5 being there favourite. I know a lot of motorsport fans too and guess what they laugh when you mention Forza (a bit harsh albeit they are F1 and rally fans). To be honest Forza is called motorsportS but the only motorsport it has is road racing and even then it is lacking.

Also your starting to present you OPINION as fact which is a little bit worrying in terms of discussion.

Hahahaha the part about iracing and GT5. What a terrible misquote....if you keep this up you might reach new levels in the delusional meter.

Got anything to add to the discussion other than your OPINION or others' OPINION that FM4 is better than GT5. Didn't think so

Now please define twitchy. When, what type of corner, under what conditions.

Normal conditions it is more sensitive when in terms of throttle whilst turning in GT5 in speeds as low as 40mph.

...and I would suggest you don't misquote me again.

It not random and its repeatable, which is close to how it is in the real world.

Now while I am happy to post up the cockpit view, I am going to ask why.

Accidentally deleted my reply dont even know how pressed some arrow forward button and it was gone. Tell you later in a hurry.