FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Scaff]

Yes, 'cause comparing 3 from one series to one and a half of another is fair. If anything, that says that Forza is selling so poorly it takes 3 of their games to match the sales of one of GT's.

Which is exactly why I said :

Even in comparison to GT its hideously difficult to even start to see if Forza is closing the gap or not, given the differing release cycles the two series have.

However just for fun we can given it a go.

In my original post on it, which had you read fully before throwing off a reply you would have seen. Not exactly sure how I could have been more clear in that regard?

Also, where'd you get your sales for Forza? You could update the Wiki one best selling video game franchises 'cause Forza's not on there, and they should be if they sold 14 million units. (still not as impressive as GT's 68 million, but impressive nonetheless.)

Seriously, read the posts people make and the whole conversation before replying!

Not to mention that you are now doing exactly what you complained was un-fair when I did it, so which is it?

 

[Luminis]

Would something bad can ever be popular to rake up high number of sales in millions within a couple of years ? It must be good enough to be that popular and making those sales number.

What would that make the Need for Speed franchise, then? Because that franchise sold 100+ million copies already and that figurer is pretty outdated by now, as it was announced in 2009. You'd have to add the sales of Hot Pursuit, Shift 2, The Run and Most Wanted to that. You'd be probably looking at nearly twice as many sales as the GT franchise in total. So, how important can sales figures be, I wonder?

Just asking, you know?

Oh, a non-gaming related example. Justin Bieber.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What would that make the Need for Speed franchise, then? Because that franchise sold 100+ million copies already and that figurer is pretty outdated by now, as it was announced in 2009. You'd have to add the sales of Hot Pursuit, Shift 2, The Run and Most Wanted to that. You'd be probably looking at nearly twice as many sales as the GT franchise in total. So, how important can sales figures be, I wonder?

Just asking, you know?

Oh, a non-gaming related example. Justin Bieber.

The need for speed series games were good to those who keep buying them, I guess sales figure matters most to game publisher, they will keep making games that they deemed popular and profitable, regardless if some of us thought that the games were bad or have flaws. Like I said, popularity and high sales number are inseparable, good or not ( very subjective to the player )

Justin Bieber : I don't like his songs or voice, but apparently millions of other people thought otherwise, they considered him good enough, that they bought his albums, rooting for him and he became a popular singer. Would they call him bad singer ? Don't think so, but I would

This is getting off topic really, I better stop now.

 

[SuperShouden]

Which is exactly why I said :



In my original post on it, which had you read fully before throwing off a reply you would have seen. Not exactly sure how I could have been more clear in that regard?



Seriously, read the posts people make and the whole conversation before replying!

Not to mention that you are now doing exactly what you complained was un-fair when I did it, so which is it?

I don't think there's a way for me to respond to this without getting an infraction.

 

[Tornado]

Of course, there's no way to prove that GT itself is the leading cause for the increased demand and subsequent popularity of cars like the three AWD missiles I mentioned - any half-decent UK/Euro car mag back then had a ton to say about them, and there was WRC for the non-Nissans - but since the internet was not nearly as common then as it is now, GT was arguably one of the first contact points for a lot of people.

There was also a little movie about living your life according to quarter mile times that came out before any of those had made the jump across the ocean that certainly helped at least a bit.

 

[Scaff]

I don't think there's a way for me to respond to this without getting an infraction.

Plenty of ways exist for you to respond.

You could explain why you ignored that I had already stated that it was going to be....

hideously difficult to even start to see if Forza is closing the gap or not, given the differing release cycles the two series have

...and instead imply I had been unfair to the GT series.

You could respond by letting me know how I could have made that more obvious.

Now those two alone could be covered without any need to break the AUP. The only reason to break the AUP is if you want to, and the continued passive-aggressive posts are not required.

 

[Samus]

From this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8066010#post8066010

What you are describing is the different types of graphics.

In GT5 they use a certain type of HD graphics. While in most other games such as Forza they are using a certain type of animated graphics.

This is the reason for GT5's cars looking better in detail. But GT5's tracks looking good but the ceneroy looking gloomy. Certain things will look better in Forza or NFS ect than it does on GT5 for this reason. I honestly hope if push comes to shove they leave the graphics alone.

As I said in the other thread, this is the biggest load of rubbish I've read in a long time.

Not going to get into the argument about it and i am sure I am not 100 percent correct on where it used. But it is in fact HD graphics that are used in GT5. And that's why they look better

So, please tell us what these 'HD Graphics' are and why Forza isn't using them.

 

[Lock2Lock]

From this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8066010#post8066010

As I said in the other thread, this is the biggest load of rubbish I've read in a long time.

So, please tell us what these 'HD Graphics' are and why Forza isn't using them.

Hahahahahahahahahaha so quick to judge bro?

Go look at my reply. Calm down before posting.....

Here nuff said

Nope. No offense but let's not. It is my opinion. I shouldn't have to put "in my opinion" in everything I post. It is my opinion. I have owned both played them both that's what I had seen nuff said.

And yes it had all the necessary equipment (as in both running on HDMI cables and i am stating which one I thought looked better and my explanation on why and what I was expecting (well in a sumed and blunt way). I don't have to go into debate on things no one actually knows unless they work at the company the different games were made.

Sorry i didn't post "in my opinion" (which might be my fault for the way i worded my post) but that was my opinion sorry for the confusion.

 

[Samus]

You mean because you said:

But it is in fact HD graphics that are used in GT5. And that's why they look better

..and the original post was in a pretty matter of fact manner? What is this 'certain type of animated graphics' you talk about? That's certainly not opinion, you're openly stating they use a different type of graphics.

 

[Lock2Lock]

You mean because you said:

..and the original post was in a pretty matter of fact manner? What is this 'certain type of animated graphics' you talk about? That's certainly not opinion, you're openly stating they use a different type of graphics.

Once again. I shouldn't have to put "in my opinion" and i am quiet sorry for my bad wording on "fact". I have been staring at computer screens all night working on them. So i am tired and short so pretty much the reasoning for my laziness.

Anyway yes i am pretty positive that GT5 uses HD STYLE (aka rich/crisp/really high resolution) graphics system. The details on the cars are just too rich. Sorry for my choice of words. Probably wasn't the best wording. That's my fault not yours. I can see why that would spark you to do that. But there isn't any need to go further into this or make it bigger. I have already been through this before because of my wording let's not get into this obvious miss understanding before it escalates.

I do however appreciate you actually asking what i meant.
Hope I was clear this time

 

[Samus]

Well I can sort of understand you, I've no doubt whatsoever that GT5 when it's at it's best does look better than Forza and I would never argue otherwise. However that's nothing to do with how they model things or any 'style' they use, there is no such thing as a 'HD' style. All games model things with polygons and the only thing that determines how good they look is how many polys are in the model, how high the resolution of the textures are and the lighting around the model (and a few other things).

Forza aren't using 'animated' graphics or anything different to what PD or any game company are using, they're both creating poly models aiming for realistic models and textures it just so happens that PD are able to use higher poly models on the premium cars and they also have a far superior lighting mengine, making things look more realistic. They're still modelled and textured in the exact same way though.

That's what irked me about your original post, not which you think looks better.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well I can sort of understand you, I've no doubt whatsoever that GT5 when it's at it's best does look better than Forza and I would never argue otherwise. However that's nothing to do with how they model things or any 'style' they use, there is no such thing as a 'HD' style. All games model things with polygons and the only thing that determines how good they look is how many polys are in the model, how high the resolution of the textures are and the lighting around the model (and a few other things).

Forza aren't using 'animated' graphics or anything different to what PD or any game company are using, they're both creating poly models aiming for realistic models and textures it just so happens that PD are able to use higher poly models on the premium cars and they also have a far superior lighting mengine, making things look more realistic. They're still modelled and textured in the exact same way though.

That's what irked me about your original post, not which you think looks better.

Agreed... No problem... Yeah i wasn't meaning that it was a different type of graphics system (i do see how my post looked that way my fault). Yeah i meant it as a resolution aspect just poor choice of words sorry about that. Anyway yeah i do hope that in GT6 they keep that and maybe fix the scenery.

Also lately I have found some things with Nurburgring Nordschleife with the trees. Seems as if there mainly issues with the lighting that makes the scenery that makes them look like crap

 

[Samus]

Lighting wise GT5 is certainly better but the tracks are generally a lot less detailed and use poorer textures.

GT5:

Forza:

Forza is off screen of course but I'm not comparing the quality, rather the modelling. There is a LOT more detail in the background of Forza, GT5 just has plainly textured hills, Forza is much more detailed.

Same thing when you get to the pits.

GT5:

Forza:

Again GT5 may look visually more real thanks to the lighting but the modelling is far worse, the pit lane is empty. Also bear in mind those are FM3 images, not FM4.

 

[hennessey86]

Lighting wise GT5 is certainly better but the tracks are generally a lot less detailed and use poorer textures.

GT5:

Forza:

Forza is off screen of course but I'm not comparing the quality, rather the modelling. There is a LOT more detail in the background of Forza, GT5 just has plainly textured hills, Forza is much more detailed.

Same thing when you get to the pits.

GT5:

Forza:

Again GT5 may look visually more real thanks to the lighting but the modelling is far worse, the pit lane is empty. Also bear in mind those are FM3 images, not FM4.

You couldn't get some direct feed forza shots???

 

[Samus]

They're not my shots, they're from the net but they're enough to illustrate the point which was what they modeled on the track, not how they look overall because like I said, GT5 lighting is certainly better.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Yeah i see what you mean there SimonK.

I don't know if it is just me but I would rather have the cars and track look better than the scenery if if i had to choose. But it would be nice to have it all be good. But what can you do

 

[Samus]

What do you mean by 'track'? Just the surface itself? It doesn't bother me too much but personally I can't help but notice huge, very rough textures. If they're not going to do anything better they need to do a better job of hiding the rough edges.

I mean here is another example:

GT5 certainly has better lighting and car models but look at that awful, big green texture on the distant left compared to the Forza one which is much more detailed. The texture just to the left of the F40 also looks very rough on GT, you can see a large jagged line where two textures join. Not pretty.

 

[Lock2Lock]

What do you mean by 'track'? Just the surface itself? It doesn't bother me too much but personally I can't help but notice huge, very rough textures. If they're not going to do anything better they need to do a better job of hiding the rough edges.

I mean here is another example:

GT5 certainly has better lighting and car models but look at that awful, big green texture on the distant left compared to the Forza one which is much more detailed. The texture just to the left of the F40 also looks very rough on GT, you can see a large jagged line where two textures join. Not pretty.

I mean like the the track surface not the area outside like ummm the sand pits.

I see exactly what you mean. And yes agreed that's what Forza really did great at.

It just seems like PD focused on the track and cars (premium mainly) instead on all the above.

Forza did a lot on all but they sacrificed looks in the wrong places (which really isn't a excuse for either game).

 

[Samus]

Well the problem as far as I can see it is that they just went back to their GT4 models and touched them up rather than either starting from scratch or at least giving them a major overhaul. There isn't really any excuse for some of the tracks when you consider there are others that look better.

Clearly the PD 3d modellers spent most of their time working on the car models rather than the tracks whereas T10 outsourced a lot of their car modelling leaving them more time to work on the tracks.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well the problem as far as I can see it is that they just went back to their GT4 models and touched them up rather than either starting from scratch or at least giving them a major overhaul. There isn't really any excuse for some of the tracks when you consider there are others that look better.

Clearly the PD 3d modellers spent most of their time working on the car models rather than the tracks whereas T10 outsourced a lot of their car modelling leaving them more time to work on the tracks.

Yep seems that way.

 

[Zer0]

Clearly the PD 3d modellers spent most of their time working on the car models rather than the tracks whereas T10 outsourced a lot of their car modelling leaving them more time to work on the tracks.

T10 have also outsourced a lot of their tracks. And car parts, and graphics, and sound design, etc. They barely make anything in house.

PD track quality vary from track to track, they have tracks in GT5 at FM4 level or better. Accuracy and art apart.

 

[Tornado]

And they have tracks at GT4 level but touched up a bit. And they have tracks at GT3 level but not touched up at all. I don't get your point.

 

[KinLM]

And they have tracks at GT4 level but touched up a bit. And they have tracks at GT3 level but not touched up at all. I don't get your point.

+1.

While I like the fact that everything from PD is in-house, that isn't an excuse for 2000 year level graphics in a 2010 year game.

 

[McLaren]

T10 have also outsourced a lot of their tracks. And car parts, and graphics, and sound design, etc. They barely make anything in house.

PD track quality vary from track to track, they have tracks in GT5 at FM4 level or better. Accuracy and art apart.

Most us knew they outsourced the car models, but I would love proof of everything else or that they barely develop anything.

 

[Zer0]

And they have tracks at GT4 level but touched up a bit. And they have tracks at GT3 level but not touched up at all. I don't get your point.

My point is that this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8066227#post8066227

Is not indicative of the tracks in GT5, just a comparisson on selected tracks for the benefit of Forza.

Most us knew they outsourced the car models, but I would love proof of everything else or that they barely develop anything.

Forza Motorsport 4

- Over 100 cars and DLC
- Hundreds of parts, kits and wheels
- Road America track


Forza Motorsport 3

Glass Egg built:
- 180 cars
- Hundreds of parts, kits and wheels
- Several tracks, including Amalfi and Catalunya


Forza 3 was predominantly developed by Seattle-based developer Turn 10, though much of the game’s sound design was outsourced to TAG’s Midlands-based offices.

http://www.develop-online.net/news/33108/Forza-3-project-proves-outsourcing-works
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24881189&postcount=426
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26705039&postcount=275
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio.php

 

[Samus]

It's indicative of many tracks on GT5, I never claimed all of them and the pictures I posted were just examples I found online.

 

[Zer0]

Many means comparing recursively the same 3 or 4 less impresive GT5 tracks that exists in FM4?. You was speaking with the "generally" term in your examples and there are 35 different locations in GT5, most of them without many of the defects that you pointed out in the GT4 ported tracks.

And is not that all the tracks in FM4 are flawless, there are many ported from the previous games with much less work put on them than the newer tracks.

 

[Samus]

Well it's hard to compare too many tracks when there aren't that many in both titles.

I've shown Laguna, how about Le Mans?

Again, Forza 3 shots used. Most of the poor tracks in GT5 are not in Forza so not something to be posted in this thread.

Suzuka:

Again, more detail on the Forza shot.

Prologue shots used but I don't believe it has changed for the final game.

Tsukuba. I couldn't tell you which bridge is more accurate but everything else, the textures, looks better in F4.

Final couple more from LS:

I'm sure you'll say these are cherrypicked images and yes, of course they are. That's all any comparison is going to be until we can look at the whole track in one go.

 

[cuco33]

Who cares if more work was done in house or not when PD clearly mismanaged resources to launch a full release game filled with the majority of content from last gen, having quality and feature disparity?!
There is no excuse for having standards in a game this gen, from the very popular and succesful GT franchise developed by Sony's trump card, PD. Maybe they should have spent more time keeping all cars and tracks and features at the same quality rather than modeling the rear seat stitching that premiums have because this is a laugh:

That isnt even mentioning the unfinished game state at launch amongst more issues. I still think gt5 looks the most realistic but under certain circumstances (premium cars & tracks). Maybe PD would do well by outsourcing some of their work load.

My personal gripe with some outsourced work that t10 did is some models have issues. A good one is the VW Corrado, especially with the Oettinger kit. Just bad... but at least it looks like It Is from the same game.

 

[McLaren]

My point is that this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8066227#post8066227

Is not indicative of the tracks in GT5, just a comparisson on selected tracks for the benefit of Forza.


Forza Motorsport 4

- Over 100 cars and DLC
- Hundreds of parts, kits and wheels
- Road America track


Forza Motorsport 3

Glass Egg built:
- 180 cars
- Hundreds of parts, kits and wheels
- Several tracks, including Amalfi and Catalunya


Forza 3 was predominantly developed by Seattle-based developer Turn 10, though much of the game’s sound design was outsourced to TAG’s Midlands-based offices.

http://www.develop-online.net/news/33108/Forza-3-project-proves-outsourcing-works
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24881189&postcount=426
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26705039&postcount=275
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio.php

So, cars, some tracks, & the sounds mean that T10 barely did anything? They didn't design the game, didn't put everything in place, didn't create all the events, create the game's foundation, build the online, etc. etc?

Good job exaggerating on how T10 & the Forza franchise is developed once again.