FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Luminis
I have a feeling that we're still a decade away from going entirely for digital releases. Boradband internet still isn't available everywhere. Also, what's the difference between selling a small piece of plastic and a disc? Works well with the Nintendo DS.
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Indeed you have a point there. But Sony had a bit of a nightmare with the PSP Go, at least in Germany and Austria, because brick and mortar retailers wouldn't stock the hardware because they couldn't sell games. And that's where retailers make silly money.

It could be mere coincidence that my local mayor chain store moved 360 games to a far less prominent shelve just after MS released 360 titles as downloads. And I do miss XBL and arcade titles very much on the PS3.

Anyway I don't think MS will shift to downloads with Forza 4 just yet, but for instance the new OS X is going to be only available via download. Physical media are the modern walking dead, and MS knows this very well.
 
ItsHim
Indeed you have a point there. But Sony had a bit of a nightmare with the PSP Go, at least in Germany and Austria, because brick and mortar retailers wouldn't stock the hardware because they couldn't sell games. And that's where retailers make silly money.

It could be mere coincidence that my local mayor chain store moved 360 games to a far less prominent shelve just after MS released 360 titles as downloads. And I do miss XBL and arcade titles very much on the PS3.

Anyway I don't think MS will shift to downloads with Forza 4 just yet, but for instance the new OS X is going to be only available via download. Physical media are the modern walking dead, and MS knows this very well.
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Again, anyone who thinks digital media is going to completely succeed that of physical, or physical media is the "walking dead" is missing the entire point of why physical media keeps evolving in the first place - expansion. What happens in the event you lose your account, you forget your login information, or worse yet, someone hacks into whatever network hosts that digital media you hold so dear? You ever wonder why people are so adamant about keeping multiple backups, all of which are physical? Also what happens to customers who can't safely access the service due to any number of reasons?

That's potential, longstanding, and even eventual clientele down the tubes.

Some of you also seem to be ignoring the fact that the average gamer doesn't want to sit and wait hours for a game to download, they want it right then and there. I sure as hell know I do. Until the entire worldwide grid is being fed T1 speeds and above, again, DDL won't be entirely feasible any time soon.
 
We have to remember the next generation is going to have game sizes larger than most games released this generation. It is going to be like God of War 3 and that was like over 40gb. Quite a lot of providers caps are that alone so until the majority of the Xbox / Playstation / Wii markets get fibre optic broadband and also cheaply, it is less likely than this generation to go all online.
 
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Bogie 19th
It has got a bit side tracked, yes cuco33. We need to rectify that.

Forza 4:

5254635172_cc76785521_b.jpg


GT5:

5254023797_a2d86b2a79_b.jpg


Real Life:

5254634776_1fa68376ee_b.jpg
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If you're going to compare cars like this, shouldn't they all be in the same spot, same track, same weather, same lighting?
 
Luminis
Yeah, the gameplay sucks, but damn, the graphics are stunning!

Also, quite funny that FM4 overdoes the clare and reflections while GT5 underdoes them :lol:
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I think if the car in the real pic was at the same angle it would show a bit more glare. The Forza 4 pic would still have more glare than the real pic but the real pic I think would look much closer to the Forza 4 pic.
Another big difference I noticed was in the wheels. Forza's wheels look 10 times better than GT5's
 
SuperShouden
If you're going to compare cars like this, shouldn't they all be in the same spot, same track, same weather, same lighting?
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The GT5 and FM4 are as close as you can get. Both on TGTT, at about the same angle, and the same car. Time of day and weather don't change on the TGTT in GT5 so you can't make the lighting any closer to the same.
The real life pic is different but close enough to get the idea. FM4 is too shiny, GT5 is way too dull. And the car looks too narrow in GT5 to me, like the wheelarch humps in the hood are too close together compared to the real pic and the FM4 one...
 
I don't use photo mode but I'm pretty sure photo travel has more detail for the cars in GT5. Not that the photo mode in race can look very good too. See this: http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8264/nrburgringnordschleife1j.jpg (Credit goes to CoolColJ on GTPlanet)
You can see some tiny levels of damage too in that photo.

Anyway this is the E3 2010 trailer of GT5 and you can see how good Top Gear and the cars look when the game engine is running at its maximum setting.

 
Scaff
You may want to reconsider that comment....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4287062#post4287062

....particular as a video of the run is posted as well as a number of shots from that photo session.

Scaff
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Has been photoshopped though, just look at the image details in PS and you'll see. and someone rewrote the camera details for the image to read differently than literally every other GT5 image I've ever looked at.

Nevertheless, it is a good looking shot, but it's heavily edited so...
 
GT5's Photo-mode is more than capable of images that stand the test against those we have seen for FM4 and lets not forget that we do not yet know exactly how good the final images we will be able to get out of FM4 are going to be - I certainly hope we don't have the compression issues we current have with FM3.

An example of my own (and I've only messed with GT5's photo mode a little):

Jaguar at Le Mans



Scaff
 
Scaff
GT5's Photo-mode is more than capable of images that stand the test against those we have seen for FM4
Scaff
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And its also capable of producing shots that barely stand up to FM1 👎
Nice shot of the jag though.

GT5 is like that girl you see at the club who's a real knockout, but the you see her later without all the time to prepare and look her best and you're amazed they're the same person :lol:
 
zr1chris
I stand corrected. Those are definitely the best GT5 shots I have seen.
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There is loads of good looking GT5 shots though. Sticking with the LFA you can see in photo travel it looks even better http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6018/5938804061_bb6b7f2dc3_b.jpg http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5938807325_b2b0f0da21_b.jpg. (Credit goes to el_posto)

Browse through this for realistic looking photos: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134329&page=261 or this for more Lexus shots https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198429.

I thought I'd add these two photos as they look quite realistic, maybe a bit too shiny.

http://hs1.abload.de/img/nordschleifec63photosh3ndj.jpg (Credit goes to G.T.Ace)

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l322/07SGT2591/GT5%20Garage/Ahrweiler-TownSquare_33.jpg (Credit goes to StrayShadow)
 
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HighSeasHoMastr
And its also capable of producing shots that barely stand up to FM1 👎
Nice shot of the jag though.

GT5 is like that girl you see at the club who's a real knockout, but the you see her later without all the time to prepare and look her best and you're amazed they're the same person :lol:
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And a significant amount of jumping the gun is going on here in regard to what we will be able to get out of FM4.

So far we have official shots only (and look at those from GT5 pre-release and the end result of the shots of standards).

Lets be quite honest here the exact same thing can be said of FM3, you want a nasty looking shot and you can find one.



Straight from FM3 with zero editing at all.

If someone wants to find a shot that makes FM or GT look bad, then it can be done with little effort. However to dismiss all of the work that can come out of GT5 as a result of that is more than a little biased. Particularly when what we will be able to get out of FM4 is still an unknown.


Scaff
 
saidur_ali
There is loads of good looking GT5 shots though. Sticking with the LFA you can see in photo travel it looks even better http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6018/5938804061_bb6b7f2dc3_b.jpg http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5938807325_b2b0f0da21_b.jpg. (Credit goes to el_posto)

Browse through this for realistic looking photos: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134329&page=261 or this for more Lexus shots https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198429.

I thought I'd add these two photos as they look quite realistic, maybe a bit too shiny.

http://hs1.abload.de/img/nordschleifec63photosh3ndj.jpg (Credit goes to G.T.Ace)

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l322/07SGT2591/GT5%20Garage/Ahrweiler-TownSquare_33.jpg (Credit goes to StrayShadow)
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Allot of the pics I can find tiny minor things that look off. The LFA is pretty much perfect. The white mercedes something looks wrong with the grill. The 69 Camaro has something going on the color with the wheels and tires. Like there is a haze over them.
 
Scaff
And a significant amount of jumping the gun is going on here in regard to what we will be able to get out of FM4.

So far we have official shots only (and look at those from GT5 pre-release and the end result of the shots of standards).

Lets be quite honest here the exact same thing can be said of FM3, you want a nasty looking shot and you can find one.



Straight from FM3 with zero editing at all.

If someone wants to find a shot that makes FM or GT look bad, then it can be done with little effort. However to dismiss all of the work that can come out of GT5 as a result of that is more than a little biased. Particularly when what we will be able to get out of FM4 is still an unknown.


Scaff
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Oh, absolutely. I never said that FM looked better. But you do have to admit, there isn't anything in FM3 (let alone FM4) that looks even half as bad as some of the standard cars in GT5.

As far as what FM4 will be able to do, I haven't tried to comment on it. I think that most of the gun-jumping is from people who say "FM4 will not look that good in game" or "FM4 will have compression issues with photos" when there's no more evidence to support that then there is to refute it.
All I'm trying to point out is that GT5 can be made to look very good, but it can also be made to look very bad. Obviously what we've seen of FM4 is stuff that is making it look very good, but I doubt that it will be possible to make it look as bad as parts of GT5 do.
Also, I don't really see how it matters. Photomode is not indicative of what you're seeing in-game in either game. Who cares which one looks better standing still with swapped-in models for photos? It's the in-game, in-motion graphics that really matter (as much as graphics matter at all...) and from what I've seen of FM4 it looks better in motion than GT5. No jagged shadows, no standard cars cut out of previous generation graphics; just a game that looks really, really good.

If GT5 can be made to look better, then great. I don't really care who wins the beauty contest, it's gameplay that counts. And in my book, FM3 is already light years ahead for GT5 as far a that goes. Sure, the physics might not be as good (although I think there's a lot of room to debate that) but they're still very good, and in literally every other category (except photomode graphics) FM3 is better. From the looks of things, FM4 will only increase the gulf between them.
 
zr1chris
Allot of the pics I can find tiny minor things that look off. The LFA is pretty much perfect. The white mercedes something looks wrong with the grill. The 69 Camaro has something going on the color with the wheels and tires. Like there is a haze over them.
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I can see things that look off in all the pictures I posted. I knew you would say this once you realised it is GT as that is what I found here on this part of the forum. I was surprised you did not say it for the first photo I posted by saying the grass near the fence is off. The general attitude I found here is something about GT looks / is off in more or less all departments compared to Forza but I guess it is expected in a Forza sub-forum where majority of posts are from Forza fans.

Anyway here are some reference photos of the C63 AMG.
http://www.theracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Mercedes-C63-AMG-2.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1185/3266722613_29ab8d5477_z.jpg?zz=1

The Camaro looks like how it would look in a motor show, but maybe it is a bit too shiny still.
 
saidur_ali
I can see things that look off in all the pictures I posted. I knew you would say this once you realised it is GT as that is what I found here on this part of the forum. I was surprised you did not say it for the first photo I posted by saying the grass near the fence is off. The general attitude I found here is something about GT looks / is off in more or less all departments compared to Forza but I guess it is expected in a Forza sub-forum where majority of posts are from Forza fans.

Anyway here are some reference photos of the C63 AMG.
http://www.theracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Mercedes-C63-AMG-2.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1185/3266722613_29ab8d5477_z.jpg?zz=1

The Camaro looks like how it would look in a motor show, but maybe it is a bit too shiny still.
Click to expand...

I think you have me misunderstood. GT5's premium cars in photo mode look 100 times better than Forza 3. I know that. I was just saying the pic of the LFA looked exceptionally good. I couldn't find a flaw anywhere even the trees and the track. When I say some things are off on certain cars thats not a knock on the game. Im just saying that I can tell its not real in almost every pic. I was actually fooled by the pic of the LFA. I thought it was real.
 
zr1chris
I think you have me misunderstood. GT5's premium cars in photo mode look 100 times better than Forza 3. I know that. I was just saying the pic of the LFA looked exceptionally good. I couldn't find a flaw anywhere even the trees and the track.
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I was going to add to my post for you to not take it personally as I meant others mainly. You did say only tiny minor flaws and that is quite a generous comment. However I have seen comments regarding the GT5 cars interiors as plastic looking and nothing even touching the levels of graphics in Forza 4 Autovista mode.
 
SuperShouden
If you're going to compare cars like this, shouldn't they all be in the same spot, same track, same weather, same lighting?
Click to expand...

Feel free to post better comparisons than the ones I found on a different forum. We await your reply.

However I have seen comments regarding the GT5 cars interiors as plastic looking and nothing even touching the levels of graphics in Forza 4 Autovista mode.
Click to expand...

That is a common consensus. It appears that is the case.
 
saidur_ali
I don't use photo mode but I'm pretty sure photo travel has more detail for the cars in GT5. Not that the photo mode in race can look very good too. See this: http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8264/nrburgringnordschleife1j.jpg (Credit goes to CoolColJ on GTPlanet)
You can see some tiny levels of damage too in that photo.

Anyway this is the E3 2010 trailer of GT5 and you can see how good Top Gear and the cars look when the game engine is running at its maximum setting.
Click to expand...

At first I was questioning this photo until i+I looked at the trees. I honestly don't see forza 4 looking better than that when talking about the car.
 
saidur_ali
I was going to add to my post for you to not take it personally as I meant others mainly. You did say only tiny minor flaws and that is quite a generous comment. However I have seen comments regarding the GT5 cars interiors as plastic looking and nothing even touching the levels of graphics in Forza 4 Autovista mode.
Click to expand...

Now that I think about it, they do seem a little plasticy. Amazing detail, though. But I haven't really taken a good look at FM4's interiors. I would assume getting leather to look like leather on a 2D surface would be a little hard, though.

I also wanted to bring up something I noticed the other day whilst playing: My lap times in FM3 are all over the place. I find it hard to be consistent with FM3...as least with the controller. Whereas, with GT5, I can run consistent lap times all day. And I believe that all has to do with feeling the car. In GT5...there's an incredible sense of feeling, with with the controller. Heck, that's what makes racing with the wheel in GT5 feel so good; you can feel the car. And from feeling the car, you know when to brake, when to accelerate, when to overtake...after a few laps, I can run a track on autopilot without many mistakes. In Forza...there's a definite lack of feeling to the cars. Part of it, is there's very little FF during acceleration and braking. But...there's something else missing but I can't explain it. There's just...no feeling to the cars. They're numb. Understeer and Overster aren't enough. That's just the tires talking.

I think the difference comes down to...Kaz goes out and races cars and the guys at Turn10....well...they don't. And there's a difference between hiring a race driver to come in and describe something and having that knowledge yourself and being able to fine tune it yourself in the game code. And Kaz isn't the only member of the PD team with racing experience. I think GT5's Nurburgring feels better because Kaz himself has raced it several times and he's brought that feeling to the game.

GT5 FEELS like there's racing experience behind it. You feel like you can go out to the track and put down some good laps after playing GT5. With Forza...Forza I'd feel like if I did that and I'd die.
 
ICEYOU
What if they made a Forza, GT crossover game? Would that be possible?
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The only "crossover" I could see happening is if GT has a Forza branded car in the game and visa versa (which might happen if FM3 wants to include the GT5 branded Peugeot 908 from a couple years ago in FM4) or if T10 wants to put the Citroen GT in a Forza game. Beyond that, I don't see it happening.
 
saidur_ali
I was going to add to my post for you to not take it personally as I meant others mainly. You did say only tiny minor flaws and that is quite a generous comment. However I have seen comments regarding the GT5 cars interiors as plastic looking and nothing even touching the levels of graphics in Forza 4 Autovista mode.
Click to expand...

👍
 
SuperShouden
Now that I think about it, they do seem a little plasticy. Amazing detail, though. But I haven't really taken a good look at FM4's interiors. I would assume getting leather to look like leather on a 2D surface would be a little hard, though.

I also wanted to bring up something I noticed the other day whilst playing: My lap times in FM3 are all over the place. I find it hard to be consistent with FM3...as least with the controller. Whereas, with GT5, I can run consistent lap times all day. And I believe that all has to do with feeling the car. In GT5...there's an incredible sense of feeling, with with the controller. Heck, that's what makes racing with the wheel in GT5 feel so good; you can feel the car. And from feeling the car, you know when to brake, when to accelerate, when to overtake...after a few laps, I can run a track on autopilot without many mistakes. In Forza...there's a definite lack of feeling to the cars. Part of it, is there's very little FF during acceleration and braking. But...there's something else missing but I can't explain it. There's just...no feeling to the cars. They're numb. Understeer and Overster aren't enough. That's just the tires talking.
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That is true...

But I find that is a problem with GT5, it's so predictable. The car never feels 'unsettled' and the only thing that stops me going exactly where I want the car to go is too much wheelspin. It's too easy to do consistent, at the limit laps.
Forza 3 just has that little bit of subtlety that can unsettle the car if I abuse it, and while I feel it falls short a bit still, it is at least there.

I think the difference comes down to...Kaz goes out and races cars and the guys at Turn10....well...they don't. And there's a difference between hiring a race driver to come in and describe something and having that knowledge yourself and being able to fine tune it yourself in the game code. And Kaz isn't the only member of the PD team with racing experience. I think GT5's Nurburgring feels better because Kaz himself has raced it several times and he's brought that feeling to the game.
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Nothing to do with it, unless Kaz personally raced, upgraded, road tested and crashed every single one of the 1000 cars. Otherwise he's just giving an opinion on feel, just like the rest of us who've driven a car.

GT5 FEELS like there's racing experience behind it. You feel like you can go out to the track and put down some good laps after playing GT5. With Forza...Forza I'd feel like if I did that and I'd die
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I find the opposite, GT5 feels exaclty like driving in a game. And I'd die if I used my GT5 'skillz' on a real track. Don't get me wrong, the physics feel pretty convincing for the most part, they're just missing the excitement to me.
 
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The "feel" aspect to the driving experience is something thats pretty much impossible for any developer to get right, simply because its so subjective.

How can they truely convey to the user, the feeling g-forces effecting the car in a way that feels exactly the same as real life ?

No matter how they setup the FF/rumble levels or the visual clues, theres always something that going to feel missing, until we can literally jack our brains/nervous system into a game (ie: true virtual reality), all the devs can do is try to represent those missing sensations, and due to obvious limitations, it will never "feel" right to alot people.
 

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