Ford planning LeMans Return + Ford GT revival

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I think supercar prices are inflating way ahead of the general economy.

In 2005, a Ferrari 360 cost around $160k USD and it was essentially the Ford's #1 target (even though the Ford was really quite a bit beyond the 360 in terms of performance)

The 2015 Mclaren 675LT (which is arguably in the same class as the 360, or perhaps the 360CS) will cost a staggering $350k USD and it seems to be Ford's target this time, maybe.

USD-160k in 2005 is USD-191k in 2015 according to normal inflation. For reference, the 458 Italia costs between USD-233k-260k. Even considered relatively, these supercars (I still call them exotic sports car, despite how increasingly ridiculous this is beginning to be) are more closely resembling 'hypercars' every year in both performance and price. If the Huracan and 488 are to keep up, then I'm not sure there's room for the Aventador and F12 at the top. Mclaren can do this because there is a huge gap between the 6** range and the P1.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Mclaren*, let's see a sort of mortal-performance line of supercars around 500hp and $150k. The rate of performance increases between generations of performance cars in the last 10 years is quite literally numbing. It's hard to appreciate any of it anymore.

*I know Mclaren are already working on it
I think the reality we're facing is that the 488 (for example) simply isn't a 355/360 anymore. It's an Enzo, they just make more of them. The entire lineup of Ferrari has moved upscale so quickly that there is a void below. There is no relatively affordable Ferrari now - the cheapest is simply unaffordable no matter how you slice it.

Lamborghini hasn't done this. The Diablo's price in 1991 was $240,000 - equivalent to $412,000 today, actually more expensive than the Aventador's price of $380,000. The Murci's price was $270,000, equivalent to $356,000 today. Overall, the cars' prices have been in the same ballpark. The 488 will be competing with the base Aventador on price and performance, surely.

Lamborghini has room for an upmarket car. Ferrari has room for a downmarket car. McLaren is already going downmarket as they've quickly shifted the MP4-12C upmarket to the 675ST.

Ferrari sells a whole lot of products that not many people can afford. I take it they're living off their merch on the low-end. :lol:
 
I think supercar prices are inflating way ahead of the general economy.

In 2005, a Ferrari 360 cost around $160k USD and it was essentially the Ford's #1 target (even though the Ford was really quite a bit beyond the 360 in terms of performance)
The 360 was out of production by then. The F430 was the current V8 at $186,000 & was pretty close with the GT.
The 2015 Mclaren 675LT (which is arguably in the same class as the 360, or perhaps the 360CS) will cost a staggering $350k USD and it seems to be Ford's target this time, maybe.
How do you figure a 666Hp upper-tier McLaren is the same class as a sub 500Hp 360/F430? The F430 if anything, would be closer to the 650S as the "entry-level" car.
USD-160k in 2005 is USD-191k in 2015 according to normal inflation. For reference, the 458 Italia costs between USD-233k-260k. Even considered relatively, these supercars (I still call them exotic sports car, despite how increasingly ridiculous this is beginning to be) are more closely resembling 'hypercars' every year in both performance and price. If the Huracan and 488 are to keep up, then I'm not sure there's room for the Aventador and F12 at the top. Mclaren can do this because there is a huge gap between the 6** range and the P1.
Except there was never a Ferrari in 2005 that retailed for $160,000. Again, in 2005, it was the F430 that retailed for $186,000 or in today's market, $230,000. $230,000 is exactly where the 458 started. In 2000, the 360 Modena was retailing for $154,000; $210,000 or so in today's market. It should give an idea of where Ferrari intends to keep their V8 bread & butter remaining at so as not to step on the toes of the V12 line unless you build the car to that point option-wise.

As for where McLaren sits, it's pretty obvious. The 650S will always be priced to compete against the Ferrari V8/Lambo V10. Judging by the 666Hp horsepower in the 675LT & a $350,000 MSRP, it's going to be set against the $400,000 Aventador & $320,000 F12. There's no need for the 488 or Huracan to keep up because from a performance stand point, they're already there being lighter & more agile. The Aventador & F12 are high horsepower cars, but they're not built with the same goals in mind as the lower-tier models. The performance is there because it has to be to help justify the price, but the cars are typically marketed to a more laid-back demographic.
Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Mclaren*, let's see a sort of mortal-performance line of supercars around 500hp and $150k. The rate of performance increases between generations of performance cars in the last 10 years is quite literally numbing. It's hard to appreciate any of it anymore.

*I know Mclaren are already working on it
How is it numbing? The performance is increasing by each generation just enough to keep prices remaining where they have been for the past 20 years.
I think the reality we're facing is that the 488 (for example) simply isn't a 355/360 anymore. It's an Enzo, they just make more of them. The entire lineup of Ferrari has moved upscale so quickly that there is a void below. There is no relatively affordable Ferrari now - the cheapest is simply unaffordable no matter how you slice it.

Lamborghini hasn't done this. The Diablo's price in 1991 was $240,000 - equivalent to $412,000 today, actually more expensive than the Aventador's price of $380,000. The Murci's price was $270,000, equivalent to $356,000 today. Overall, the cars' prices have been in the same ballpark. The 488 will be competing with the base Aventador on price and performance, surely.

Lamborghini has room for an upmarket car. Ferrari has room for a downmarket car. McLaren is already going downmarket as they've quickly shifted the MP4-12C upmarket to the 675ST.

Ferrari sells a whole lot of products that not many people can afford. I take it they're living off their merch on the low-end. :lol:
There's no room for it there. Performance wise, sure, but it's not an Aventador competitor to begin with & thus, it won't be priced competitively.

The 488 is expected around 240K Euro, or $260,000. I think it will price a bit less at $250-255,000. That's a decent increase above the outgoing 458, a little above the Huracan, & priced perfectly against the 650S.

Lamborghini's upmarket has already been seen; Reventons & Venenos galore. Ferrari's down market is the California T at under $200,000. It's priced just enough to sway a 911 Turbo or DB9 buyer.
 
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The 360 was out of production by then. The F430 was the current V8 at $186,000 & was pretty close with the GT.

How do you figure a 666Hp upper-tier McLaren is the same class as a sub 500Hp 360/F430? The F430 if anything, would be closer to the 650S as the "entry-level" car.

Except there was never a Ferrari in 2005 that retailed for $160,000. Again, in 2005, it was the F430 that retailed for $186,000 or in today's market, $230,000. $230,000 is exactly where the 458 started. In 2000, the 360 Modena was retailing for $154,000; $210,000 or so in today's market. It should give an idea of where Ferrari intends to keep their V8 bread & butter remaining at so as not to step on the toes of the V12 line unless you build the car to that point option-wise.

As for where McLaren sits, it's pretty obvious. The 650S will always be priced to compete against the Ferrari V8/Lambo V10. Judging by the 666Hp horsepower in the 675LT & a $350,000 MSRP, it's going to be set against the $400,000 Aventador & $320,000 F12. There's no need for the 488 or Huracan to keep up because from a performance stand point, they're already there being lighter & more agile. The Aventador & F12 are high horsepower cars, but they're not built with the same goals in mind as the lower-tier models. The performance is there because it has to be to help justify the price, but the cars are typically marketed to a more laid-back demographic.

How is it numbing? The performance is increasing by each generation just enough to keep prices remaining where they have been for the past 20 years.

There's no room for it there. Performance wise, sure, but it's not an Aventador competitor to begin with & thus, it won't be priced competitively.

The 488 is expected around 240K Euro, or $260,000. I think it will price a bit less at $250-255,000. That's a decent increase above the outgoing 458, a little above the Huracan, & priced perfectly against the 650S.

Lamborghini's upmarket has already been seen; Reventons & Venenos galore. Ferrari's down market is the California T at under $200,000. It's priced just enough to sway a 911 Turbo or DB9 buyer.

2004*

360CS*

I'm pretty sure Ferrari will have a 488 to compete with the 666NT. CS, Scuderia, Speciale. You know the drill. I wouldn't be too surprised if the base 488 comes close to the 666 anyways. Lamborghini is the one lacking in the weapons department for this round of the "entry-level" (this is getting increasingly absurd of an idea) supercar, even compared to the base 488 and 650s. But maybe they are ok with that. Why do you think the Huracan will be lighter and more agile? It's lighter than the outgoing Ferrari, but not by much. It's about the same as the 650s and it has awd. I don't see where the agility advantage would come from. The 458 was the heaviest of the trio, and with turbos, I doubt the 488 will be lighter.

Or are you trying to suggest that the 675LT is Mclaren's way of making an F12 competitor? I don't see it. Its 100kg lighter than the 650s and, to me at least, more of an analog to the 458-Speciale relationship.

I also sincerely doubt Aventador owners are more "laid-back" then Huracan owners. The relationship of the 488 to F12 and Huracan to Aventador is not the same. Comparing 12's, they might have been more comparable way back when it was TR vs Countach, but with the 550 Maranello, Ferrari chose a vastly different role for their 12 cylinder car.
 
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I don't think the "roles" of the cars matter much given that the lot of them never seen a track anyway. They are merely fun symbols of success. But the Ferrari and Lambo exemplify that much better than the 675 Bobtail.
 
2004*

360CS*
That's still not correct in relation to price, though; it was a $194,000.
I'm pretty sure Ferrari will have a 488 to compete with the 666NT. CS, Scuderia, Speciale. You know the drill.
Which is years away, though.
I wouldn't be too surprised if the base 488 comes close to the 666 anyways.
Remains to be seen, I guess. Price wise, they're not competitors.
Lamborghini is the one lacking in the weapons department for this round of the "entry-level" (this is getting increasingly absurd of an idea) supercar, even compared to the base 488 and 650s. But maybe they are ok with that. Why do you think the Huracan will be lighter and more agile? It's lighter than the outgoing Ferrari, but not by much. It's about the same as the 650s and it has awd. I don't see where the agility advantage would come from. The 458 was the heaviest of the trio, and with turbos, I doubt the 488 will be lighter.
I'm not referring to their agility against each other. You said,
If the Huracan and 488 are to keep up, then I'm not sure there's room for the Aventador and F12 at the top.
The former 2 cars already do a fair job keeping up because they're more agile cars; they're built with lap times a lot more in mind that the bigger V12 cars.

Or are you trying to suggest that the 675LT is Mclaren's way of making an F12 competitor? I don't see it. Its 100kg lighter than the 650s and, to me at least, more of an analog to the 458-Speciale relationship.
It's a $350,000 666Hp McLaren; Ferrari's 731Hp F12 starts at $322,638 & on average, will leave a showroom well around $350-360,000. I have no doubt the McLaren will be faster & it will be used as a selling point to sway V12 Ferrari/Lamborghini buyers who don't think the 650S is enough car.
I also sincerely doubt Aventador owners are more "laid-back" then Huracan owners. The relationship of the 488 to F12 and Huracan to Aventador is not the same. Comparing 12's, they might have been more comparable way back when it was TR vs Countach, but with the 550 Maranello, Ferrari chose a vastly different role for their 12 cylinder car.
Aventador owners are the exact same as F12 owners. They're buyers with a lot of money looking for a weekend toy to cruise down Rodeo Dr. & enjoy owning for the sake of both cars having a price that can reach $400,000; a price tag that screams exclusiveness & the "top-of-the-line" from either marque. They are remarkable cars on a track, but for those who walk into either showroom knowing their next car is going to see significant track time will lean towards the Huracan/488 because they're better packaged cars for such activities. I'd be willing to bet the age demographics of a 488-to-F12/Huracan-to-Aventador buyer also reflect which car is more likely to be tracked or a boulevard cruiser.

As for the role Ferrari chose with Maranello, a V12 Grand Tourer, that had been the hallmark of the company for several, several years. That didn't change the fact Ferrari's flagship V12 was still conveniently priced against the Diablo; $222,434 vs. $222,000. Assuming Ferrari upcharged all its options as it does today, I'm guessing a fully loaded Maranello could have touched $240-250,000; same retail price as a Diablo VT in 1996.
 
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no matter what anyone says, due to the Evo and STI pulling sub 5second 0-100(62) times, they needed to make these mega super cars quicker. Who wants a Ferrari that can't outrun an A45 AMG. or an E63 wagon?

Remember when cars were fast with 6second 0-60 times? The Integra Type R could closely achieve that. 3second times are pretty normal for high end cars today. We'll only see "affordable" cars in that mid/high 4 second range for a long time. I'd say that's as quick as we'll see sports sedan and hatchbacks achieve.

Then, it has to be "exclusive". How fast do you want to go? Depends on how much you want to spend.
 
no matter what anyone says, due to the Evo and STI pulling sub 5second 0-100(62) times, they needed to make these mega super cars quicker. Who wants a Ferrari that can't outrun an A45 AMG. or an E63 wagon?

Remember when cars were fast with 6second 0-60 times? The Integra Type R could closely achieve that. 3second times are pretty normal for high end cars today. We'll only see "affordable" cars in that mid/high 4 second range for a long time. I'd say that's as quick as we'll see sports sedan and hatchbacks achieve.

Then, it has to be "exclusive". How fast do you want to go? Depends on how much you want to spend.
There is more to driving than speed.
 
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Admittedly, it's a lot easier for it to look like the older cars in profile. It's the details that are massively different this time. The 2005 car being a near-copy of the original also makes this seem like more of a departure than it really is.

It's looking nice in silver at the NY show. I find it easier to pick out some of the smaller details that were masked more with the blue.
 
Its missing that flat rear end everyone loves. Other details are different. But like Slip said the '05 was a modern copy of the original. This is the first with a more evolutionary design.
 
I'm sure they'll put them on if you pay them enough...not like they couldn't throw them in on a $400,000 car... :P
Not everyone wants them. I know I wouldn't, I mean where I live the car already has a high chance of being keyed. Stripes triple it.
 
Not everyone wants them. I know I wouldn't, I mean where I live the car already has a high chance of being keyed. Stripes triple it.
Well I mean if you can afford this type of car you'd probably be living on the Isle of Mann...or Abu Dhabi...or in the middle of the California dessert...or at a race track.
 
Well I mean if you can afford this type of car you'd probably be living on the Isle of Mann...or Abu Dhabi...or in the middle of the California dessert...or at a race track.
Naa

I like where I am. Anyway, stripes will probably be a costly option. How much? If you have to ask...
 
True but I mean it applies to everything in general.
That too...course a lot of 50's American cars were...yachts. :lol: Not every car is ginormous compared to many years ago, but in general it's probably because of safety, and...hmmmmm...yeah not sure. :P

Which is funny because LMP and Formula cars for the most part haven't grown in size much since the 70's. Heck the GT cars make them look tiny.
 
(crappy) US safety standards...aerodynamicz...they're bored. Though this GT isn't unreasonable, I mean the original GT40 was ridiculously small lol.
Europe might not have such ridiculous safety standards as US, and maybe not stupid-ish import laws, but Europe DOES have ridiculous emission standards.


Russia and Europe also don't have Holden Commodores.
 
It's just the rear overhang and door window cut that makes it look different. That front 3/4 view erases any doubt of its DNA.
 
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