Formula 1 Heineken Dutch Grand Prix 2022Formula 1

[MagpieRacer]

Yuki's radio, being told to leave the pits and then stop.

"Go out, go out the exit and then stop in a safe place"

🤔

 

[NICKname]

Yes, Red Bull is intentionally making their drivers cause yellow flags to rig the results and also they're secretly going €100 million over the budget cap. They're doing this to win races and championships they were going to win anyway, because of [no reason].

 

[MagpieRacer]

Yes, Red Bull is intentionally making their drivers cause yellow flags to rig the results and also they're secretly going €100 million over the budget cap. They're doing this to win races and championships they were going to win anyway, because of [no reason].

You don't think being told to leave the pits and stop on track is fishy in any way whatsoever?

Who said anything about budget caps?

 

[IcySlivers]

Post race interview with Norris: “Alpine vs Me”

Lololololol 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭nice dig at Ricciardo, the sooner he leaves the better for McLaren. He’s embarrassingly bad.

 

[NICKname]

You don't think being told to leave the pits and stop on track is fishy in any way whatsoever?

You think blocking the pit exit is a better idea than finding a marshall post and leaving it in a safe area? And you also think Red Bull would genuinely blatantly cheat to get a race win they do not even remotely need, and would've very likely gotten anyway?

Who said anything about budget caps?

Everyone, right up until the supposed crashgates 2.0 (yesterday) and 3.0 (today), and they will continue again when Red Bull brings new updates to Singapore. Unless there is a new insane theory by then.

 

[NotThePrez]

You think blocking the pit exit is a better idea than finding a marshall post and leaving it in a safe area?

The pit area would still have been the safest overall place for Yuki to be given his issues. That way they're not sending an obviously crippled car onto an active race track, and at the very least the AT crews wouldn't have to travel particularly far to recover the car.

And you also think Red Bull would genuinely blatantly cheat to get a race win they do not even remotely need, and would've very likely gotten anyway?

FWIW, I personally don't think for a second that Red Bull cheated here, but you can't deny that it was incredibly convenient for Verstappen that Yuki had his issues when he did, even though it was fairly short-lived. Considering that it happened to a (by proxy) teammate, and it was for Verstappens home race, it's not hard to see how at least a few eyebrows are raised.

Everyone, right up until the supposed crashgates 2.0 (yesterday) and 3.0 (today), and they will continue again when Red Bull brings new updates to Singapore. Unless there is a new insane theory by then.

I don't think this has anything to do with the budget caps, but I don't see any reason why teams shouldn't be beholden to keeping their spending within the established limits, and why there shouldn't be questions about it if overspending is suspected. I do distinctly remember Brawn saying that anyone trying to exceed the limits would be dealt significant penalties that could alter their championship hopes.

Even still, though, there's always questions raised by the other teams when one team and/or driver is dominating compared to the rest. It happened with Vettel, it happened a lot with Hamilton, and now it's Max (and once again Red Bulls) turn.

 

[PaMu1337]

You guys do realize that stopping in the pit exit would completely block the entire pitlane, and cause way more issues than stopping on track, right?
Of course they tell him to get out and get to a safe place, that's a pretty standard procedure.

 

[DG_Silva]

PaMu, wasn't that the point? If Tsunoda stopped in the pit lane, then Max couldn't get a free pit stop. If Alpha Tauri can say it's a diff breakage without getting the car back to pits, why did they even release it in the first place?

Talking about the budget cap (not that we were really anyway), I wouldn't be surprised if the top three plus McLaren do actually exceed the budget cap within the minor overspend margin, as there's no real incentive not to:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/h...ld-decide-the-f1-world-championship/10318291/ (might be an Autosport Plus article)

Overspending, whether in the numbers voluntarily declared by a team up front, or those discovered later via an investigation, falls into two categories.

There’s a simple split at 5% of the cap: a breach below that is regarded as a “minor overspend”, while anything above 5% is a “material overspend”. The latter case is taken far more seriously.

That 5% number is not insignificant. Teams are currently aiming for $140m plus $1.2m for the 22nd race, making for a 2022 total of $141.2m. Thus a 5% breach represents extra spending of around $7m – which equates to a huge amount of R&D, potentially enough to make the difference between winning or losing the title.

The rules note that in the event of an overspend below 5% the CCAP “may impose a financial penalty and/or any minor sporting penalties.”

 

[NotThePrez]

You guys do realize that stopping in the pit exit would completely block the entire pitlane, and cause way more issues than stopping on track, right?
Of course they tell him to get out and get to a safe place, that's a pretty standard procedure.

I might be mis-remembering, but didn't AT determine the issue before releasing Yuki?

 

[MagpieRacer]

I might be mis-remembering, but didn't AT determine the issue before releasing Yuki?

Apparently so. They also, quite clearly on the radio message, tell him to leave the pits and then stop. Implying that they knew there was a problem and sent him anyway. It's all very odd and very convenient and of course can't be proven. It's likely that the outcome will have remained the same regardless thanks to Bottas breaking down but if he hadn't, more than a few questions will have been raised on top of those already being asked by a few in the paddock.

 

[pumaATTACK]

I would feel pretty used if I were Tsunoda.

 

[IcySlivers]

Sorry I just have misplaced my tinfoil hat today, not seeing it

 

[Veinz]

This race was a lot better than I expected. Mercedes looked like they might have had it in the bag until the vsc happened.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Yuki's radio, being told to leave the pits and then stop.

"Go out, go out the exit and then stop in a safe place"

🤔

I wouldn't be drawing conclusions from a video that removes the context of the actual event from the radio messages...

Surely the exit being referred to here is the trackside access point, which is where he stopped. Not the pit exit. And even if it was, the pit exit would have been exactly where Tsunoda wouldve realised that there was still a problem, given that he had to turn 180 degrees to rejoin the track.

Edit: https://streamff.com/v/810424

Tsunoda suspected a broken diff after he was already in the pit exit lane with nowhere to pull over.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I might be mis-remembering, but didn't AT determine the issue before releasing Yuki?

There was nothing on the broadcast to suggest that. Yuki said the car felt odd and loosened his belts, they cleared it on the telemetry and got him to drive back to the pits and found nothing. Then they sent him out again.

 

[PaMu1337]

 

[pumaATTACK]

I mean that video is just him saying believe me! It’s true RB wouldn’t cheat.

Not much proof in there.

 

[PaMu1337]

I mean that video is just him saying believe me! It’s true RB wouldn’t cheat.

Not much proof in there.

It's making the clear argument that risk vs reward is not even remotely worth it here.

And about proof: burden of proof lies on the people claiming a conspiracy here, and so far they have provided none.

 

[Roggers]

I wouldn't be drawing conclusions from a video that removes the context of the actual event from the radio messages...

Surely the exit being referred to here is the trackside access point, which is where he stopped. Not the pit exit. And even if it was, the pit exit would have been exactly where Tsunoda wouldve realised that there was still a problem, given that he had to turn 180 degrees to rejoin the track.

Edit: https://streamff.com/v/810424

Tsunoda suspected a broken diff after he was already in the pit exit lane with nowhere to pull over.

Best video I’ve seen and I think this clears everything that they is no conspiracy or cheating at all.

Yuki box’s for hard tyres and as he exits pit exit he says “tyre are not fitted” then stops on track, switches of the car and then loosens a seat belt. AT say tyres are fine and to drive back. They is no indication here that the diff is broken. Yuki then mentions on the way back to the pits a possible diff broken but AT don’t confirm this, which to me obviously means they are unable to see on the data this problem. If AT can’t see the damage or dont see the damage on the data why should AT be forced to retire a that that not faulty? As he then drives on the pit exit, again he says diff is broken and by the time he gets the radio call to stop the car he has already passed the crash barrier on the outside and has an active track a few feet away from him. As he has passed this barrier even if he stops straight away it will still activate a VSC or SC as the marshalls have to enter the track. Just before he stops it sounds like something then breaks and he loses all drive.

As for why did they send him back out 2 laps down. When he first pitted he was on the lead lap and on pit exit was passed by the leaders. Then he gets lapped again. They send him back out as if a SC or red flag happens he can unlap himself, just like Hamilton did in Imola 2021. What is funny is that when Hamilton repaired his car and unlapped himself all under a red flag at Imola I didn’t see many people complaining.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Best video I’ve seen and I think this clears everything that they is no conspiracy or cheating at all.

Yuki box’s for hard tyres and as he exits pit exit he says “tyre are not fitted” then stops on track, switches of the car and then loosens a seat belt. AT say tyres are fine and to drive back. They is no indication here that the diff is broken. Yuki then mentions on the way back to the pits a possible diff broken but AT don’t confirm this, which to me obviously means they are unable to see on the data this problem. If AT can’t see the damage or dont see the damage on the data why should AT be forced to retire a that that not faulty? As he then drives on the pit exit, again he says diff is broken and by the time he gets the radio call to stop the car he has already passed the crash barrier on the outside and has an active track a few feet away from him. As he has passed this barrier even if he stops straight away it will still activate a VSC or SC as the marshalls have to enter the track. Just before he stops it sounds like something then breaks and he loses all drive.

As for why did they send him back out 2 laps down. When he first pitted he was on the lead lap and on pit exit was passed by the leaders. Then he gets lapped again. They send him back out as if a SC or red flag happens he can unlap himself, just like Hamilton did in Imola 2021. What is funny is that when Hamilton repaired his car and unlapped himself all under a red flag at Imola I didn’t see many people complaining.

George, we need to get Lewis back in the race, can you crash into our other car to cause a red flag.

GeorgeGate scandal.

 

[GroupB]

The best part is the main argument isn’t “Red Bull didn’t do that because they have integrity” but instead “Red Bull didn’t do that because it wasn’t really justified given their already strong championship position”
Everyone knows that team would have zero problem orchestrating something like that if they felt the reward outweighed the risk.

 

[Adam41]

Yuki then mentions on the way back to the pits a possible diff broken but AT don’t confirm this, which to me obviously means they are unable to see on the data this problem. If AT can’t see the damage or dont see the damage on the data why should AT be forced to retire a that that not faulty? As he then drives on the pit exit, again he says diff is broken and by the time he gets the radio call to stop the car he has already passed the crash barrier on the outside and has an active track a few feet away from him. As he has passed this barrier even if he stops straight away it will still activate a VSC or SC as the marshalls have to enter the track.

What I don't get is why the team didn't notice the diff was broke. They didn't pick it up in the 4 minutes from him first stopping to the moment he left his pit box, but they did seconds after him doing so. Yuki then drives away with no menace at all, almost like he still knows the car is broke and doesn't trust his team saying the car is fine - because the team have not actually done anything to it. The whole situation screams incompetence.

I would say I'm shocked that the whole thing didn't get investigated for being dangerous quite frankly, but this is the FIA, so I'm not any more.

 

[Famine]

The best part is the main argument isn’t “Red Bull didn’t do that because they have integrity” but instead “Red Bull didn’t do that because it wasn’t really justified given their already strong championship position”
Everyone knows that team would have zero problem orchestrating something like that if they felt the reward outweighed the risk.

While I don't think that there were any shenanigans going on - and also what crack were Mercedes smoking if they thought they had a chance against Verstappen without the VSC/SC - it would be well to remember the tale of the frog and the scorpion.

Sometimes people act against their own best interests regardless of risk, even at the risk of death, simply because it's nature (or second-nature) to them to act in that manner in ordinary circumstances.

 

[PaMu1337]

The best part is the main argument isn’t “Red Bull didn’t do that because they have integrity” but instead “Red Bull didn’t do that because it wasn’t really justified given their already strong championship position”
Everyone knows that team would have zero problem orchestrating something like that if they felt the reward outweighed the risk.

History has shown that most teams have little issue with cheating. Some just took it a bit further than others. So anyone making an argument out of integrity for any team would honestly be naive. So yeah, then only the risk vs reward really remains.

 

[Roggers]

What I don't get is why the team didn't notice the diff was broke. They didn't pick it up in the 4 minutes from him first stopping to the moment he left his pit box, but they did seconds after him doing so. Yuki then drives away with no menace at all, almost like he still knows the car is broke and doesn't trust his team saying the car is fine - because the team have not actually done anything to it. The whole situation screams incompetence.

I would say I'm shocked that the whole thing didn't get investigated for being dangerous quite frankly, but this is the FIA, so I'm not any more.

Yeah but if they is no data saying the car is broken how do you know it broken?
The diff helps rotate the wheels, and Yuki says in an interview he could only feel one side spinning. No wonder he didn’t drive away in menace as he only had traction in one side. Also AT never confirmed over the radio the diff was broken. They just tell him to stop in a safe place.

Perhaps the Bottas failure need investigating too? Maybe he didn’t want Hamilton to win so he switched the engine off himself so he could stop on track to bring out a full safety car so then Max would be right behind Hamilton not 15 seconds +

 

[Dennisch]

Or AT aren't trusting Yuki's judgement enough about what's going on with the car.

 

[Veinz]

The conspiracy theory is just silly.

 

[Adam41]

Yeah but if they is no data saying the car is broken how do you know it broken?
The diff helps rotate the wheels, and Yuki says in an interview he could only feel one side spinning. No wonder he didn’t drive away in menace as he only had traction in one side. Also AT never confirmed over the radio the diff was broken. They just tell him to stop in a safe place.

Perhaps the Bottas failure need investigating too? Maybe he didn’t want Hamilton to win so he switched the engine off himself so he could stop on track to bring out a full safety car so then Max would be right behind Hamilton not 15 seconds +

Why did they tell him to stop the second time, then? The amount of things they can see on telemetry - they used to be able to tell drivers what diff setting use to on corner entry/exit to gain a hundredth of a second - but they can't see drive going to only one wheel? It's just absolutely ridiculous.

What @Dennisch said, AT should have trusted Yuki more and investigated further, and Yuki should be shouting at his team telling them what he knows is broken. How he thinks that resolved itself with them undoing his belts I don't know.

That car shouldn't have left the pitlane. You can't be sending a blatently broken car out on to a live track. And that's why I think they should be investigated - and penalised.

No need for your second paragraph.

 

[ShiftingGears]

The best part is the main argument isn’t “Red Bull didn’t do that because they have integrity” but instead “Red Bull didn’t do that because it wasn’t really justified given their already strong championship position”
Everyone knows that team would have zero problem orchestrating something like that if they felt the reward outweighed the risk.

I, too, like to cast aspersions over teams even after accusations of them race fixing have been completely and utterly debunked.

 

[Samus]

I would say I can't believe the cheating conspiracy is still going but then, this is the F1 fandom.

Look at it this way. It's a proven fact (confirmed by the FIA) that there was a mechanical issue with the diff. The whole sequence started by TSU detecting that (but believing it initially to be a wheel issue), and stopping. So absolutely nothing suspicious about that in the slightest, perfectly normal behaviour. The car genuinely broke, and he stopped. If he'd left the car where he stopped first we would have got the VSC anyway. But the team tell him it's fine and to drive back to the pits.

They see nothing wrong on their data, change the tyres presuming that is what Yuki felt, buckle him back up and send him out. Yuki immediately still feels the diff problem, and he's told to drive out (so as not to block the pit lane) and stop safely. Exactly what he'd already done in the first place.

So put simply, nothing changed. Yes, the VSC could have been prevented by not sending him back out but that doesn't tie into a conspiricy at all, because he'd already caused one if they just left him out there in first place. If they wanted to help RB, the job was already done.

The only thing left is if people believe Red Bull quickly got on the phone and told them to send him back out and stop on the track because they really wanted that VSC that they'd prevented by bringing him back. Which if you believe RB would do that, when it's easily traceable and not required, well...tin foil hats are that way.