Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prêmio De São Paulo 2021Formula 1

[McLaren]

When they turned in, Max was ahead on the inside so had right of way. It's the risk you run

You must have been watching a completely different scenario.

Lewis has already made the pass & has the racing line. Lewis is still clearly ahead when they turn in. The only reason Max gets alongside is b/c he brakes later than necessary which forces not only Lewis off the line, but he himself which has been a noted issue; you shouldn't be trying a defensive move if it results in you going off as well. Alongside the fact you're not allowed to defend by weaving back-and-forth, something Max also did and got a flag for.

 

[Samus]

Equally, Hamilton could have backed out and not attempted to pass around the outside. It goes both ways. When they turned in, Max was ahead on the inside so had right of way. It's the risk you run

It won't be true no matter how many times you say it.

Braking too late to make the corner doesn't make you ahead and even if you are, that doesn't give the right to push the other driver off. There is a very clear rule against that.

I notice you've also ignored all the other points I made, presumably because you've no answer for them.

PS no, I'm not a HAM fan. I'm about as objective an F1 fan as you'll get. HAM was at fault for the Silverstone crash. VER was at fault here.

 

[CarreraGT]

It won't be true no matter how many times you say it.

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Braking too late to make the corner doesn't make you ahead and even if you are, that doesn't give the right to push the other driver off. There is a very clear rule against that.

I notice you've also ignored all the other points I made, presumably because you've no answer for them.

PS no, I'm not a HAM fan. I'm about as objective an F1 fan as you'll get. HAM was at fault for the Silverstone crash. VER was at fault here.

Fair point, I hadn't looked at any stills since watching it live. So Lewis was slightly ahead at that point, but certainly had not made the pass (they were side by side). Either way, Max was on the inside, they were fighting for the same piece of road and both ran wide with no contact. Play on. The stewards obviously agree

 

[Redneckchef]

This kind of decision is what leads idiots in my racing games to just kill me if I go around the outside. Too many times the answer is, you can't pass on the outside, I have the right to the whe track. This is a garbage ruling and a ridiculous precedent. If I'm Mercedes I am putting some steel lining on the sidepods and using this ruling to the full extent. Max is 99pct likely to never back out, and the stewards are showing that running drivers clean off track (deliberately or accidentally) is now fair game. Prepare your car for the inevitable contact and re engage in the new F1.
Just a totally garbage decision as multiple drivers have been punished for far smaller infringements all season and now one of the biggest examples is ruled perfectly fine. I want want see close hard racing, not inside car us innocent at all times wreckfest style races.

 

[McLaren]

both ran wide with no contact.

Lol, both only ran wide b/c one of them made an overzealous attempt & the other backed out to avoid the unnecessary move.

 

[Samus]

Fair point, I hadn't looked at any stills since watching it live. So Lewis was slightly ahead at that point, but certainly had not made the pass (they were side by side). Either way, Max was on the inside, they were fighting for the same piece of road and both ran wide with no contact. Play on. The stewards obviously agree

HAM only ran wide because the other option was crashing, and he wanted to avoid that. He could have made the corner, VER could not, clearly. He admitted that he braked too late and had to run wide or risk spinning his car. HAM did not.

Clean, hard racing would have seen VER leaving space for HAM on the outside and they duelled it out around the corner and into the next one. That is proper racing. Not what VER did.

As already said, this has now set a precedent and you can now say goodbye to any kind of clean racing. FIA are saying that it's fair game to force the other guy off whilst going off yourself and keep your place.

So the only way we're going to get overtakes is what HAM did the second time, get past before even getting to the corner. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[GingerBredMan]

People blurring reality just to steer every argument in favor of their favorite driver has become the most loathsome thing about following F1 for the past 5 years.

 

[CarreraGT]

People blurring reality just to steer every argument in favor of their favorite driver has become the most loathsome thing about following F1 for the past 5 years.

Penalties have become the most loathsome thing about F1. Penalties for overtaking, penalties for defending, penalties for changing engines, penalties for loosening your seatbelt to celebrate a win or for spraying champagne in the wrong direction.

I am not a Verstappen fan, but we should promote hard racing, not prohibit it.

 

[Fat Tyre]

People blurring reality just to steer every argument in favor of their favorite driver has become the most loathsome thing about following F1 for the past 5 years.

I agree but that's been around forever to some degree. Some drivers, however, seem to attract the worst fans in terms of lack of objectivity. I think "Schummy", Vettel and Verstappen fans have been the worst in my opinion. I highly rate all three drivers but they've all had shameful moments and their fans have never even remotely dared to acknowledge any of it.

I'm not sure how being fanatical about someone or something benefits them anyways. Verstappen is not going to his prize money, it's just stupid to defend these people to the nth degree. What one should try to be is perhaps a fan of good racing and defend that, just that.

 

[Samus]

Penalties have become the most loathsome thing about F1. Penalties for overtaking, penalties for defending, penalties for changing engines, penalties for loosening your seatbelt to celebrate a win or for spraying champagne in the wrong direction.

I am not a Verstappen fan, but we should promote hard racing, not prohibit it.

Absolutely promote hard racing. But clearly for many of us, forcing another driver off the track to stay ahead is not fair, hard racing. Like I said, if VER had given HAM just enough space to stay on the outside and then they duked it out around the corner, THAT would be hard racing, and exciting to watch.

When you're braking too late to ever make the corner and end up running the other car off the track, that goes beyond that. It's not exciting to watch, it's anti-climactic.

FWIW I agree with you that there can be too many rules in F1 these days but when it comes to the rules of actual racing, there has to be some boundaries. If there isn't, racing wouldn't exist because most racing drivers would be dead from being forced into walls and such.

 

[McLaren]

Penalties have become the most loathsome thing about F1. Penalties for overtaking, penalties for defending, penalties for changing engines, penalties for loosening your seatbelt to celebrate a win or for spraying champagne in the wrong direction.

Penalties wouldn't be such a big issue if there was consistency in dishing them out. The directors seemingly wanting to see the outcome of a situation between 2 drivers needs to be looked at.

It's like deciding someone taking a swing at you & you dodge it, the other person gets off without a warning. If he were to connect his hit, though, then he gets reprimanded. Whether or not you dodging a punch (or a driver backing out last second) shouldn't leave the other party free of a punishment.

I am not a Verstappen fan, but we should promote hard racing, not prohibit it.

Running up the inside of someone looking to IRL wall-ride them isn't hard racing. Such shenanigans should stay in online games.

 

[CarreraGT]

I'm just happy we have something like this to argue over after 7 years of no competition! Really looking forward to the regulation changes next year, hopefully the racing is even better

 

[GingerBredMan]

7 years of no competition!

Lewis didn't win a championship in 2016, and there were definitely battles between Lewis and Seb in '17 & '18.

 

[CarreraGT]

Lewis didn't win a championship in 2016, and there were definitely battles between Lewis and Seb in '17 & '18.

I meant competition for Mercedes. Ferrari gave it a crack in 17 and 18 but were pretty much out of it with 4 or 5 races to go

 

[Samus]

Riiiiight. So basically admitting they screwed it up. Or that some stewards can't properly interpret the rulebook and others can.

 

[phillgt2002]

I meant competition for Mercedes. Ferrari gave it a crack in 17 and 18 but were pretty much out of it with 4 or 5 races to go

Those seasons were still a pretty respectable rivalry, I actually liked those more than this one so far. At least we had Charlie Whiting back then.

 

[Famine]

Riiiiight. So basically admitting they screwed it up. Or that some stewards can't properly interpret the rulebook and others can.

It's getting past time F1 had independent, permanent stewards.

Also the driver steward for Brazil was ex-Red Bull driver Vitantonio Liuzzi. Inexplicably, Brazil also had a fourth steward - there are usually three - and that was Roberto Moreno. Moreno is Nelson Piquet's best friend and I think I'm right in saying he's even Kelly Piquet's godfather. That's Kelly "Max Verstappen's girlfriend" Piquet.

Regardless of whether that was part of a pretty dodgy grouping of rulings, it sure doesn't look good and only leads to questions about how legitimate the rulings were - rolling back round to my first statement...

 

[BrainsBush]

Moreno is Nelson Piquet's best friend and I think I'm right in saying he's even Kelly Piquet's godfather. That's Kelly "Max Verstappen's girlfriend" Piquet.

Imagine Kelly and Max had a terrible argue over the weekend. Then above relationship could also work against him with the decisions Moreno has to make. In other words: sounds like the Sun 2.0 😁

 

[Famine]

Imagine Kelly and Max had a terrible argue over the weekend. Then above relationship could also work against him with the decisions Moreno has to make. In other words: sounds like the Sun 2.0 😁

Quite so (especially as he referred to her the other day as "the best thing he's ever bought" 😬), but that takes us back to the first point again:

It's getting past time F1 had independent, permanent stewards.

Whether or not Moreno is liking or disliking his best friend's daughter's boyfriend this week, it raises questions about bias in any decision he makes regarding that driver - however valid those questions actually are. The only way to avoid those questions is to have a bank of independent, permanent stewards.

 

[McLaren]

A meeting last Friday between the drivers and FIA F1 race director Michael Masi saw lengthy debate over the stewards’ decision not to investigate whether Max Verstappen had broken the rules on lap 48 of the race when he ran wide as Lewis Hamilton passed him on the outside of a corner.

Seidl, whose driver Lando Norris was given a five-second time penalty for a similar incident in Austria, said the meeting failed to clarify important questions over how the stewards interpret the rules.

“I think overall, all parties are not happy, I would say, involved, because it’s simply not crystal clear,” he said. “We all get it that it is true that each case is an individual case and you have to look into everything that is important in the case. But at the same time, I think it should be possible to have a bit more clarity.”

Debate over racing ethics after Interlagos left 'all parties not happy' - Seidl

Drivers' discussions with the FIA over the racing rules following events at Interlagos left doubts over what moves are fair, says Seidl.

www.racefans.net

According to others, F1 journalist Scott Mitchell said on the F1 race podcast that all the drivers he spoke to except Max were unhappy with the drivers' briefing.